Where does excess fat go?

[kristina]

Originally Posted by Start

my question is.. how come most people stall out when they exercise on atkins, you'd think if your body burned fat as fuel the more fuel it needed the faster you'd lose weight... Hmmmmm

Well, I've found the "cleaner" I eat, it's coming off. No stalls here any more.
Eat protein and fats and the vegies on the list and I'm losing.
MOST people don't stall on Atkins when they exercise is a blanket statement that I'm not sure is true.

[Margot 65]

After reading GCBC, it is my understanding that our fat cells do not 'hold' fat, but have a constant stream of stuff going in and stuff going out. When the stuff goes in too fast, or does not come out fast enough we get fatter.

If we have a lot of the 'stuff' moving around, in and out of our fat cells.. from our food and our fat cells, our body kicks it up a notch by increasing our metabolism and/or giving us excess energy to burn (ever get that 'I can't sit still feeling?) If we have LESS stuff moving in and out of our cells we get lethargic, will feel tired and weak, we will be in a 'resting mode' to conserve the energy as opposed to the other mode where we have plenty to spare.


After reading GCBC I do not believe excess dietary fat is stored as fat at all, but is circulated as a constant stream of energy in our muscles and organs which normally would be fueled by carbs. It is when we eat the carbs that we get fatter... because we would have to work off all that excess fat energy as well as the carb energy (like the biggest losers who work out 6-10 hours a day).


I think people stall out when they exercise because they need to eat MORE food to make up for the expended energy.. because our cells can end up starving because all of our nutrients went to moving the muscles and not feeding the cells. People tend to either eat more to provide the energy or continue eating not enough to provide for their cellular functions.... therefore starving their cells, which makes them hang on to whatever they get in case this continues.

Good Calories / Bad Calories is a must read... it really does explain it much better than I can LOL He really blows the lid off of the calories in / calories out theories.

[kristina]

The phrase "if I do what I always do, I'll get what I always got" applies to me.

If I don't change ("I can't wait till Atkins is over, then I can eat normally again" is how I used to think) my behavior....and thinking...I'll get what I always got before.

FAT

This is only my experience and opinion....

[Rory8343]

I wrote that as a response to some posts floating around about people breathing, urinating and defecating the weight they had lost. Some folks thought that when then "lost" weight it left the body through an orifice. They were a tad confused.

I think the body can excrete excess dietary fat if it is not digested properly or maybe even if you eat really large amounts . Also consider Alli the weight loss drug that inhibits fat absorption.

[Polymerase]

i have a degree in biochemistry.....

basically, an enzyme (methylmalonyl coA) catalyzes a conversion of a metabolite to a four carbon intermediate in the citric acid cycle rather than to acetyl-coA (it is now succinyl-coA). so the citric acid cycle typically regenerates all of its four carbon intermediates, so four carbon metabolites are usually not substrates. the main point is that this succinyl coA can not undergo net degredation by the citric acid cycle enzymes by themselves. so for the metabolite to undergo net oxidation by the CA cycle it first needs to be converted to pyruvate or acetyl-coA. so there are enzymes to do this conversion.

so most of the acetyl coa is converted to ketone bodies and some goes through the citric acid cycle.

now im only going to highlight a key point about fatty acid biosynthesis.

acetly coA carboxylase catalyzes the first committed step of fatty acid biosynthesis. this enzyme is regulated hormonally. glucagon, adrenaline, and noradrenaline inactivate it. insulin activates this enzyme. therefore, the less insulin you have floating around, the less likely you will be to synthesize fatty acids.


ok, i tried my best , i love biochemistry, im so sorry if this came off weird or unclear, i tried my best, i hope this gives you all some insight....i personally have been jacking up my fat intake and lowering my protein intake because i think a common problem is eating too much protein, the excess of which is converted via gluconeogensis to glucose therefore you are still in a high insulin state.....


ok the end goodnight.

[MarblesLongGone]

It goes to my husband, of course! Every time that I lose, he finds!

[MrsJackSprat]

Originally Posted by feather319

Excess Fat get stored when the body has too many carbohydrates in the blood stream. Here is how it works:...........

Insulin is used to absorb glucose, fatty acids and amino acids. The activity of fat storage depends upon the levels of insulin in the body. If insulin is high, then the fat enzymes are very active. On a low carb diet, insulin is low so the enzymes are less active.

Again, quoting Atkins '72:
Understanding insulin is the key to understanding your overweight. Insulin is the hormone...(whose) principle function is to act upon the carbohydrate in the bloodstream, which is in the form of glucose, and chemically deliver it to the body's tissues to be used as energy or to be converted into fat for storage for energy. ........... And most important, we come to the the role that insulin plays in the metabolism of fat. It promotes the conversion of sugar (glucose) into fat by initiating the manufacture of fatty acids. And it somehoow prevents fat from breaking down so that it cannot be used up as the reserve source of fuel it was meant to be. ...... What all this means to you fat fighters is that the more insulin you produce the greater resistnce you have to breaking down your fat. ...... Fatty tissue is not the inert accumulaltion of blubber that it seems to be, but rather is an active organ of metabolism. Among other functions, the membranes of the fat cells, by resisiting the action of insulin, cause an increased production of this hormone. So....the more fat cells, the more membranes, and therefore the greater the production of insulin.

Happily there is a way to break this vicious cycle-the diet in this book.

You see, protein/fat combinations tend to be insulin stabilizers, biologically speaking. That is, they, unlike carbohydrates, do not dramatically affect blood sugar levels, and thus do not trigger the insulin flood.....because nothing is eaten which triggers off an insulin deluge.

When you remove the ready fuel of carbohydrate from your diet, your body begins to search for an alternate source of energy, those vast untapped reserves of stored fat. This changeover is governed by the pituitary, which receives a signal to begin putting out its fat mobilizing hormone. FMH releases energy into your bloodstream by causing the stored fat to convert into carbohydrate.

[40winks]

I read an interesting book on dietary fat -- it's Eat Fat, Lose Weight by Ann Louise Gittleman. She described the various ways dietary fat is used in the body and explains why certain fats are healthy and others are unhealthy. The one thing that struck me most is that fat is an essential element in the surface of our body's cells -- all of them, if I recall rightly -- and the best fat for this is Omega 3. That doesn't explain where excess dietary fat goes, just one way the body uses dietary fat. (I've always thought that excess fat is excreted through our pores and gets pooped out, lol.)

[metqa]

Man, Ab1ht. You are a lucky guy to have so many people hitting your thread. when I keep asking questions the way you are asking them, my threads die . . .

Please keep asking them, People like you and will give you answers that the rest of us can use.

[lisabinil]

Originally Posted by MrsJackSprat

Atkins'72:
Chapter 8

Not so for everyone. I can keep at Induction level carbs and easily eat 3000 calories and I will not lose weight. It's just like Fawn posted and Dr. A stated overcomsumption, even of fat can result in weight gain. Also, Mary Enig & Sally Fallon also state this in "Eat Fat Lose Fat"-that a moderate decrease in calories is needed for weight loss and this is easy for most of us with the appetite suppression of a high fat lc WOE.

[kristina]

Originally Posted by lisabinil

Not so for everyone. I can keep at Induction level carbs and easily eat 3000 calories and I will not lose weight. It's just like Fawn posted and Dr. A stated overcomsumption, even of fat can result in weight gain. Also, Mary Enig & Sally Fallon also state this in "Eat Fat Lose Fat"-that a moderate decrease in calories is needed for weight loss and this is easy for most of us with the appetite suppression of a high fat lc WOE.

I believe what he DID say was that you would lose weight faster if you reduced your calories, but I will check that out.

The original 72 Atkins book, page 15:

"......the weight loss of thousands of my patients proves that the basic reason you can lose on all this rich food is this fantastic fact: [COLOR="Red"]as long as you don't take in carbohydrates, you can eat any amount of this "fattening" food and it won't put a single ounce of fat on you[/COLOR]

Page 83
"....it's carbohydrate far more than calories that count..."

Page 91
"...I have had 1,000's of overweight patients who habitually eat as little or less than their normal
weight friends. In my experience this group outnumbers the patients who overeat."...

Page93
"...it has been my clinical experience over the years with patient after patient that weight wll be lost even when the calories taken in far exceed the calories expended, provided the patient stays under his Critical Carbohydrate Level...."

Page 93

"....let's look at Herb Wolowitz. In seventeen weeks Herb lost eighty-five pounds - and all this while he was eating 3000 calories a day....He received no medications during this and was not more physically active."

That is just part of what Dr. Atkins said..

[ab1ht]

Originally Posted by metqa

Man, Ab1ht. You are a lucky guy to have so many people hitting your thread. when I keep asking questions the way you are asking them, my threads die . . .

Please keep asking them, People like you and will give you answers that the rest of us can use.

Yes, I'm both surprised and encouraged at the active discussion that has ensued at what I thought was a "dumb" and "simple" question.

I'm not sure if we're getting closer to a definitive answer, but if nothing else, it's forcing people to crack open their books and give quotes and page numbers. Clearly, we've got a lot of people who are thinking...

[DorianH]

I coulda passed science in high school just by reading this thread.

[Margot 65]

Originally Posted by kristinaInWa2003

[COLOR="Red"]as long as you don't take in carbohydrates, you can eat any amount of this "fattening" food and it won't put a single ounce of fat on you[/COLOR]

Page 83
"....it's carbohydrate far more than calories that count..."



Page93
"...it has been my clinical experience over the years with patient after patient that weight wll be lost even when the calories taken in far exceed the calories expended, provided the patient stays under his Critical Carbohydrate Level...."

I also want to add, that it is really, really REALLY hard to overeat fat if your carbs are low. (and we ALL know by now that our carbohydrate sensitivities vary from person to person)

Try eating 80%+ fat and consume 4,000+ calories a day:

unless you are extremely overweight (IE: a body full of cells that REQUIRE that many calories) or a lumberjack or an athlete, it is not as easy as it sounds.

This is why a higher fat diet is good for a lot of us, because we just CAN'T overeat the fat unless there is something else going on or we are eating too many carbs.



Take the study in GCBC: they split a group of inmates into 2 groups. 1 group ate 10,000 calories a day of mostly carbs, the other group got (I can't remember the number but it was around 2500-3000 calories of a higher fat & protein diet.

The group eating 10,000 calories a day was STILL HUNGRY at the end of the day, while the other group was not... I wonder if all of them were even able to eat all of their food every day.

And I do not believe there was any additional exercise involved in the study.

For me: the MORE I eat (80-85% fat) the more energy I have to expend and the more active I miraculously become. If I under eat my calories, I become lethargic and lazy. I watch the same pattern with my hubby (who also eats low carb, higher fat). So it is VERY apparent to me that Gary Taubes was right on: excess dietary fat does NOT get converted to body fat, it gets burned off by our cells for energy using metabolism, heat and the excess energy that makes us want to move.

[3bees~1flower]

Originally Posted by Polymerase

i personally have been jacking up my fat intake and lowering my protein intake because i think a common problem is eating too much protein, the excess of which is converted via gluconeogensis to glucose therefore you are still in a high insulin state.....

so how are you upping you fat WITHOUT upping your protein? this is something i have wondered for a long time. could you give a days example of how you would eat?

thanks so much!

[feather319]

Originally Posted by 3bees~1flower

so how are you upping you fat WITHOUT upping your protein? this is something i have wondered for a long time. could you give a days example of how you would eat?

thanks so much!

I have that same question. I find adding a tablespoon of extra coconut oil doesn't fill me up as much or as long as eating 2-3 oz extra of protein. I have to eat more than 5 oz of meat per meal or I get super hungry.

[3bees~1flower]

that's just it...adding an extra T of butter to my meal doesn't have enought "bulk" to make my stomach full...kwim?

[3bees~1flower]

double post...

[kristina]

Originally Posted by ab1ht

Yes, I'm both surprised and encouraged at the active discussion that has ensued at what I thought was a "dumb" and "simple" question.

I'm not sure if we're getting closer to a definitive answer, but if nothing else, it's forcing people to crack open their books and give quotes and page numbers. Clearly, we've got a lot of people who are thinking...

Yep. Thanks to this thread, I'm re-reading from page 1 both Atkins books..72 and DANDR

[daisyHair]

Originally Posted by oobladee

This is where many die-hard Atkins and I split ways. There is a tipping point where when you eat more calories than your body needs, whether fat, protein or carb your body stores it as fat. Calories still count.

Period.

This has been my experience too.. but I have to eat ALOT of fat calories for me to stall.. around 2500 calories...

Lisa that is very interesting.. I had thought that ketones were the by-product of burned fats...

[whatjelly]

So what's the final answer?
Do we breathe it out? Or does it just miraculously burn??

In English please.

[MarblesLongGone]

Originally Posted by DorianH

I coulda passed science in high school just by reading this thread.

No, you'd fail, 'cause the establishment does NOT teach this direction!

[kristina]

Originally Posted by whatjelly

So what's the final answer?
Do we breathe it out? Or does it just miraculously burn??

In English please.

72 book...again LOL

"....our wonderful friends those ketone bodies and how they are being excreted in the urine. We meausure them with our "turning purple" sticks. Dr. Kekwick and Dr. Pawan, in their pioneering research, were the first to point out that a significant amount of latent energy is excreted in this form. On a low-carbohydrate diet nearly three times as much energy is lost in the urine and stools, mainly in ketones as on a high-carbohydrate diet."

I think that's the explanation I'm sticking with. Much simpler. LOL

[Start]

Originally Posted by Polymerase

i have a degree in biochemistry.....

basically, an enzyme (methylmalonyl coA) catalyzes a conversion of a metabolite to a four carbon intermediate in the citric acid cycle rather than to acetyl-coA (it is now succinyl-coA). so the citric acid cycle typically regenerates all of its four carbon intermediates, so four carbon metabolites are usually not substrates. the main point is that this succinyl coA can not undergo net degredation by the citric acid cycle enzymes by themselves. so for the metabolite to undergo net oxidation by the CA cycle it first needs to be converted to pyruvate or acetyl-coA. so there are enzymes to do this conversion.

so most of the acetyl coa is converted to ketone bodies and some goes through the citric acid cycle.

now im only going to highlight a key point about fatty acid biosynthesis.

acetly coA carboxylase catalyzes the first committed step of fatty acid biosynthesis. this enzyme is regulated hormonally. glucagon, adrenaline, and noradrenaline inactivate it. insulin activates this enzyme. therefore, the less insulin you have floating around, the less likely you will be to synthesize fatty acids.


ok, i tried my best , i love biochemistry, im so sorry if this came off weird or unclear, i tried my best, i hope this gives you all some insight....i personally have been jacking up my fat intake and lowering my protein intake because i think a common problem is eating too much protein, the excess of which is converted via gluconeogensis to glucose therefore you are still in a high insulin state.....


ok the end goodnight.

LOL i got it.. I think lol

Can you please tell me waht you eat? because most meat contains more protein than fat... I always try to eat more fat grams than protein grams but my protein is pretty high up there almost as much as fat and sometimes can be more than the fat.. in any event... I'm wondering if I should be more concerned with the percentage of fat from calories which is always like 60-70+% of total calories...

[Start]

Another question if in fact fat is left through the breath anyone try breathing harder as a way to speed up weight loss? is that possible lol? and does it matter if you breathe through the nose or mouth

[Bluegenes]

Originally Posted by Polymerase

i have a degree in biochemistry.....

basically, an enzyme (methylmalonyl coA) catalyzes a conversion of a metabolite to a four carbon intermediate in the citric acid cycle rather than to acetyl-coA (it is now succinyl-coA). so the citric acid cycle typically regenerates all of its four carbon intermediates, so four carbon metabolites are usually not substrates. the main point is that this succinyl coA can not undergo net degredation by the citric acid cycle enzymes by themselves. so for the metabolite to undergo net oxidation by the CA cycle it first needs to be converted to pyruvate or acetyl-coA. so there are enzymes to do this conversion.

so most of the acetyl coa is converted to ketone bodies and some goes through the citric acid cycle.

now im only going to highlight a key point about fatty acid biosynthesis.

acetly coA carboxylase catalyzes the first committed step of fatty acid biosynthesis. this enzyme is regulated hormonally. glucagon, adrenaline, and noradrenaline inactivate it. insulin activates this enzyme. therefore, the less insulin you have floating around, the less likely you will be to synthesize fatty acids.


ok, i tried my best , i love biochemistry, im so sorry if this came off weird or unclear, i tried my best, i hope this gives you all some insight....i personally have been jacking up my fat intake and lowering my protein intake because i think a common problem is eating too much protein, the excess of which is converted via gluconeogensis to glucose therefore you are still in a high insulin state.....


ok the end goodnight.

You'd think someone with a biochem. degree would be bright enough to know that the first letter of each sentence should be a capital letter?

[ab1ht]

Now, now. She said biochemistry, not English.

I'm an engineer. There are days when I'm lucky I can spell my name right.

[metqa]

Originally Posted by Bluegenes

You'd think someone with a biochem. degree would be bright enough to know that the first letter of each sentence should be a capital letter?

You would think that someone frequenting boards called Low Carb "Friends" would be tactful enough not to be so petty. Please, If you have something to share on topic with the OP, DO SHARE! At least this person has something of value to add to the issue at hand. What information do you have to enlighten our minds on the topic? Please, add some value . . .

[ab1ht]

I went over to the Atkins board and posted this question. Colette Heimowitz, the resident Atkins expert on that site, was kind enough to give her two cents:

Lipid metabolism is in a constant state of dynamic equilibrium. This means that some lipids are constantly being oxidized to meet energy needs, while others are being synthesized . The by-products of fat burning are ketones, what we don't use for energy are spilled in the urine and sweat glands.

Nearly all of the energy needed by the human body is provided by the oxidation of carbohydrates and lipids. When carbohydrates are low the body needs sufficient intake of fat to keep the metabolism burning if that is one of the primary sources that is fueling the metabolism.
Lipids ingested as food are digested in the small intestine where bile salts are used to emulsify them and pancreatic lipase hydrolyzes lipids into fatty acids, glycerol, soaps, or mono- and diglycerides. Since lipids are not soluble in blood, they are transported as lipoproteins after reaction with water-soluble proteins in the blood. Fatty acids are generally transported in this form as well. There is always a relatively constant supply of lipids in the blood, although of course, the concentration increases immediately following a meal. Lipids in the blood are absorbed by liver cells to provide energy for cellular functions. The liver is responsible for providing the proper concentrations of lipids in the blood. Some lipids are utilized by brain cells to synthesize brain and nerve tissue.

By primarily burning fat instead of carbohydrates, lipolysis breaks the cycle of excess insulin and resultant stored fat. So by following a fat-containing, controlled carbohydrate regimen, you bypass the process of converting large amounts of carbohydrate into glucose. When your carbohydrate intake drops low enough to induce fat burning, abnormal insulin levels return to normal—perhaps for the first time in years or decades.
But remember this is a significant difference from fasting. A prolonged fast can be dangerous and has one severe metabolic disadvantage: The body not only burns fat for energy, it also burns protein. This means that it burns off some of the body’s lean muscle tissue, which is clearly not desirable. Research has shown that on an eating plan where you are in lipolysis, and the carbohydrate intake is low enough to result in ketosis, virtually no lean tissue is lost, only fatty tissue. And that’s why for extremely overweight individuals it is possible to be in lipolysis—and at the carbohydrate level that creates ketosis—for six months to a year, and confidently know that there will be no ill effects.

Honestly, some of the vocabulary flew past me, but this is my "plain English" understanding:

Fat is constantly being created and broken down. We digest it all (break it down). What we don't need gets dumped, but it doesn't get stored as fat since there is such a small amount of insulin in the blood.

Did I get it?

[magic maker]

Originally Posted by Polymerase

i have a degree in biochemistry.....

basically, an enzyme (methylmalonyl coA) catalyzes a conversion of a metabolite to a four carbon intermediate in the citric acid cycle rather than to acetyl-coA (it is now succinyl-coA). so the citric acid cycle typically regenerates all of its four carbon intermediates, so four carbon metabolites are usually not substrates. the main point is that this succinyl coA can not undergo net degredation by the citric acid cycle enzymes by themselves. so for the metabolite to undergo net oxidation by the CA cycle it first needs to be converted to pyruvate or acetyl-coA. so there are enzymes to do this conversion.

so most of the acetyl coa is converted to ketone bodies and some goes through the citric acid cycle.

now im only going to highlight a key point about fatty acid biosynthesis.

acetly coA carboxylase catalyzes the first committed step of fatty acid biosynthesis. this enzyme is regulated hormonally. glucagon, adrenaline, and noradrenaline inactivate it. insulin activates this enzyme. therefore, the less insulin you have floating around, the less likely you will be to synthesize fatty acids.


ok, i tried my best , i love biochemistry, im so sorry if this came off weird or unclear, i tried my best, i hope this gives you all some insight....i personally have been jacking up my fat intake and lowering my protein intake because i think a common problem is eating too much protein, the excess of which is converted via gluconeogensis to glucose therefore you are still in a high insulin state.....


ok the end goodnight.

Dude. Paul specified: Little words, lots of pictures...