Meat - The Ethical Dilemma

[speedymagee]

I'm following the supplement protocol of The Diet Cure by Julia Ross at the moment. Her eating style is fairly LC, though she doesn't call it that. I feel best when I eat meat, but am having an ethical dilemma. I believe most of my deficiencies were caused by a decade of unhealthy vegetarianism (my personal style, not saying being vegetarian=being unhealthy).

I'm not sure what I am asking. I guess I'd like to hear from people who pay extra for free range, organic meat. Or anyone who has ever faced the dilemma of 'to eat meat or not'. All opinions and thoughts are welcome.
Thanks,
sandy

This is from my journal today.

July 10

I haven't been eating much meat lately. I've been a bit lax on making sure my protein requirements are met.

My DH downloaded a whole season of this cooking show. The chef raised some lovely little pigs in his back garden and then slaughtered them for Christmas. The problem is he showed the slaughter on his show. I feel it's important to know where our food comes from, so I watched. Meat eating hasn't been the same since.

I donated blood this week and have never had an issue with low iron until this time. I was able to donate, but my iron was on the border of being too low. I am blood type O, meat eater extraordinaire, feel best when I eat a lot of it and avoid simple carbs, dairy, wheat, and my old nemesis sugar.

So I have cut out sugar, and severely reduced wheat and dairy as of yesterday(for the millionteenth time in my life - am desperately hoping the supplements will make it easy to avoid these foods). The foundation of it all is eating a good healthy diet....which involves eating meat.

I like meat, love it in fact, but am feeling a bit queasy at the thought of factory farms and slaughterhouses...

One possible solution is to buy only 'organic' meat. Meat that has lived a full life before the inevitable slaughter. I know those farmers really care for the animals. No tiny pens, no weird antibiotics, no bizarre genetic mutations to make giant breasts on chickens etc.
__________________

[Darkfire]

Oh dear you could be me...I was Vegan for two+ years, it was hell to come back here. I was so sick at the end, so anemic....I was blacking out, losing hair, having leg cramps. My memory was shot. A carb coma has NOTHING on a starvation one. See somewhere along the line I just could /not/ eat another forking pasta dish...no more bread. I just could not do it...so I was eating fruit and veggies, but not enough..no dried fruit, dates or even avacados...No fat, what I dang fool I was. You can't live on 400 calories at 300 pounds...I wasn't even trying to lose weight I simply could not eat those things I'd gag.....Not only was I not trying to lose weight I wasn't really losing weight and I was getting so sick....I cried so hard the first time I went to the butcher a few weeks ago you'd think /I/ was getting slaughtered....BTW I am type O-. If I don't get meat I get sick, really very totally and completely sick but inside I tried for a long time but I just could not do it. People can, I cannot. I think 2 yrs is enough of a test....I won't torture myself nearly to death again....yah I...well here is how I am making it work in my own head. I'll do what I can for the animals and for the environment in other ways but if I kept going I was going to die....the Dr was not very kind when he said that to me either....

Mind you I don't do eggs not even any dairy right now...I did for a bit while trying to transition from Vegan but never eggs. I hate, nay despise eggs. I was never a good Vegetarian rofl, Vegan yes....veggie no....


I wish you the best, it is not an easy road but the one we are on....


@

[speedymagee]

Originally Posted by Darkfire

Oh dear you could be me...I was Vegan for two+ years, it was hell to come back here. I was so sick at the end, so anemic....I was blacking out, losing hair, having leg cramps. My memory was shot. A carb coma has NOTHING on a starvation one. See somewhere along the line I just could /not/ eat another forking pasta dish...no more bread. I just could not do it...so I was eating fruit and veggies, but not enough..no dried fruit, dates or even avacados...No fat, what I dang fool I was. You can't live on 400 calories at 300 pounds...I wasn't even trying to lose weight I simply could not eat those things I'd gag.....Not only was I not trying to lose weight I wasn't really losing weight and I was getting so sick....I cried so hard the first time I went to the butcher a few weeks ago you'd think /I/ was getting slaughtered....BTW I am type O-. If I don't get meat I get sick, really very totally and completely sick but inside I tried for a long time but I just could not do it. People can, I cannot. I think 2 yrs is enough of a test....I won't torture myself nearly to death again....yah I...well here is how I am making it work in my own head. I'll do what I can for the animals and for the environment in other ways but if I kept going I was going to die....the Dr was not very kind when he said that to me either....

Mind you I don't do eggs not even any dairy right now...I did for a bit while trying to transition from Vegan but never eggs. I hate, nay despise eggs. I was never a good Vegetarian rofl, Vegan yes....veggie no....


I wish you the best, it is not an easy road but the one we are on....


@

I really appreciate your post, thanks. I'm not alone! I'm O- too!

[9lives]

This may help:

The Blood Moon

[Questions]

I became a meat eater after being a vegetarian. I've found that after eating ground meat in sauces for a while, my natural desire for animal flesh returned, and I can eat even rare steak now... sometimes.

I don't know if keeping an animal as a pet, letting it develop a real life of sorts, then butchering it is any better than raising it as a protein/fat organism with a stunted personality and an early death. The farm lot almost seems less cruel, no raised hopes, no expectations.

Most of my beef comes from feed lot animals, which, for the most part are grass/silage fed until a few weeks before slaughter. I prefer the extra fat in my beef for cooking and for taste. Since any antibiotics or hormones are discontinued with enough time to be sure they are out of the system, I don't worry about that too much.

I worry more about pesticides than about hormones, antibiotics or even GMO flesh. The digestion is a marvelous thing, and can reduce most proteins to their components very easily. It's those non-protein and heavy metal chemicals you have to worry about.

[Darkfire]

Originally Posted by 9lives

This may help:

The Blood Moon

thank you.....haven't gotten through it all, kinda hard to read through the tears....

there is a quote from one of my fav. bands in 'hidden' track and it goes like this:


"Life feeds on life, this is necessary."

[speedymagee]

Originally Posted by 9lives

This may help:

The Blood Moon

This is it. This is what I was looking for, even though I didn't know that's what I was looking for.

Thank-you

[speedymagee]

Originally Posted by Darkfire

thank you.....haven't gotten through it all, kinda hard to read through the tears....

there is a quote from one of my fav. bands in 'hidden' track and it goes like this:


"Life feeds on life, this is necessary."

I got all teary too!

[Lynda99]

There's a novel by Robin Cook called "Toxin". The subject is slaughterhouses. It was my eye-opening about beef. {{{{shivvver} As the owner of a web site about Avian Influenza (bird flu ain't gone, BTW), I studied the conditions under which the poor chickens are kept. There are now 1000 new Salmonella cases from vegetables, and two people have died. It makes you want to eat as cleanly as possibly.

I hope this doesn't depress too much, but I'm less than confident about the claims of "free range". and "organic". The laws are very loose about it, and have to be, or the small farmers will be crushed.

This certainly creates a dilemma, especially since many of the so-called organic choices are more than double the cost, and food prices are getting worse every day.

[GME]

Think about the millions of years of evolution people try to fight to become vegan. We are meant to eat meat, we are in the food chain (near the top thankfully).

There are a lot of vegetarians around me, many of whom wear leather shoes???? I find most of them very hypocritical. I think the overriding problem is we are too far removed from our food.

I was raised in a heavy farming area. I wouldn't be so sure organic farmers "care" about their animals. Farming is a business. Organic means no chemicals, not loving environment.

Eat more dairy foods, those farmers care about the animals. A stressed out dairy cow doesn't produce milk. I have known many a dairy farmer to fire a worker for being mistreating the cows. I overheard a young gal in a restaurant once saying she wouldn't eat butter because she heard the cows were kept in tiny cages hooked up to milking machines all the time. I've been on a lot of dairies. That doesn't happen.

Hook up with a hunter or fisherman and get your meat from him (or learn to do it yourself). Most of those people care more about animals and the environment than any Sierra Club member.

[Questions]

Originally Posted by Lynda99

I hope this doesn't depress too much, but I'm less than confident about the claims of "free range". and "organic". The laws are very loose about it, and have to be, or the small farmers will be crushed.

This is true, but then you end up with things like the E.Coli contamination of "organic" lettuce. One thing never mentioned in most of the news I read was that the probable source of E.Coli was the human digestive system (since cow manure is usually sterilized).

Salmonella on tomatoes probably means raw chicken manure.

When "organic" means using uncomposted manure for fertilizer, then you have to expect problems.

[afuentes]

I buy organic whenever possible. I always check to see if it is USDA organic. I do what I can.

[Dharma]

WOW GREAT article!! Thanks for that link.

[jezzie]

'to eat meat or not'

My shift away from meat was partly cost; partly the inhumane treatment of animals.

What is interesting is that my current way of eating, semi-vegetarian, felt like I was
"coming home" to a place I had never been before. ... (Thank you John Denver)

I grew up on meat, one starch (potatoes, rice, noodles) and a vegetable.
.

[spaceace]

I would recommend a book by Ray Audette - called Neanderthin. Even though it is a book - it is a quick read - and ever since I have felt that I understood my place in the food chain, and allowed myself to dispel any negative feelings about eating meat. I also understand my biology and how natural selection has made us who we are. (Please note that "natural selection" does not mandate "evolution". It just means that the creatures that have the best features survive and pass down their genes, and others did not. Over time, this means the species improves or adapts. That happens no matter how we got here.)

On the other hand, I am totally against mistreating animals. But I have to wonder as well - if we were to free range all animals, how many people would we starve? (It takes alot of space to free-range many animals. How many people can afford the more expensive food?) What's the greater good - ethical treatment of animals or people? Another dilemma.

Back to "neanderthing", and another poster brought up a similar thing. We are not carnivores, and we are not herbivores - we are omnivores - meaning we can eat plants and animals. Just because we are able to, however, doesn't mean that both sources of food are equally good for us. We share a certain biological adaption (like dogs, also omnivores) that helped us to get by by eating plants when meat was not able to be found. We have a stomach that is best designed to digest meat, unlike the multiple stomachs of many herbivores (think cow) that empty very slowly. Ours empties in a few short hours.

The book also put me in awe of what our physical bodies can do. We are simply one of the best endurance animals on the planet. Sure a cheetah can knock you down, but only if it can do it within 30 seconds. Wear out that cheetah, and they're no match for us. They overheat and pass out, as do all furry creatures. I always thought that other animals were physically superior and that our mind was our big advantage. Losing our hair and growing sweat glands (allowing us to travel great distances without overheating) is almost as big an advantage as our big brains and opposable thumbs.

I also learned about our kinship with dogs. It is proposed that our two species were co-dependent and worked together before we had guns, etc..., or settled down into agriculture. It seems we have a natural capacity to align ourselves with dogs because our "packs" and their "packs" were integrated as our species flourished (before the agricultural revolution.)

I am very sorry - I rambled on much. Just something to share.

[Yellobrix]

It's not a low carb book by any means - but a fascinating read: Animal, Vegetable, Miracle, by Barbara Kingsolver. She resolves for she & her family to live on what they can produce for themselves for a year, with only a few concessions. Like, when they travel abroad, they don't take their own food, and they have a couple of items like coffee that they import.

Anyway, one of the things that she talks about is the issue of eating meat.

Personally, I don't have an issue with meat itself. I do have a problem with having animals with poor health as a source, with the use of antibiotics, with the environmental damage of factory farming. I consider animals a food source that should be treated respectfully. I try to keep my dollars spent in a way that focuses on that. It's not always possible, because of the number of dollars that I have!

[The Chicken Lady]

I buy grass fedbeef from a farm near my home; I get a side at a time then cook out of my freezer. If you buy in bulk like that it’s not any more expensive than what you get in the store and it is so much better for you.

Grassfed Beef has two to six times the heart healthy Omega-3 fatty acids as grainfed beef. Omega-3s are usually thought of as a benefit of eating fish! And, grassfed beef has twice the beta-carotene as grainfed beef. You’ll notice grassfed beef has a more yellow fat because of the extra beta-carotene. Grassfed beef also has four times the Vitamin E of grain fed beef, plus it's over 50% lower in saturated fat.

Grassfed Beef should not be confused with organic or "free-range", because as stated by Jo Robinson, author of Why Grassfed is Best, “organic meats may be free of chemicals, but does not guarantee the omega-3 rich diet of grass fed animals”.

I raise my own chickens for the eggs and meat and am in the process of looking for a place to get pastured pork.

My goal is to someday be able to raise as much of my own food as I can but until then there are many great resources around where you can get healthy meat that has been raised in a safe and compassionate manor. Check out your local co-ops, that’s where you will find your best prices.

[speedymagee]

A lot of good comments and things to ponder here. Thanks.

I guess we could debate the ethics of eating meat until the end of time. For me I'm going to eat it. I will look for sources of meat where the animals are kept humanely. I know it will be a bit more pricey ( I wish I had a freezer to store half a cow), but I wonder how much more expensive? This is something I will have to take into consideration when planning my grocery budget.

So grateful for everyone's comments.
sandy

[jacksmixedtape]

Read Michael Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma. He has one chapter in there that makes you see vegetarianism/veganism in a new light. Bottom line: Being a vegan might be the least ethical path to take.

As long as you eat organic/free-range, you're just doing your part in the food chain that allows us all to inhabit this little blue planet.

[Darkfire]

There are many reasons why I was vegan and only one why I am not. i <3 Mr. Pollan. I may cry like a tard eating that steak (half sorrow and half joy who knew) but one thing is certain I will eat it. I will not die over this....

I grow a butt ton of stuff without any chemicals mind you, I have a paleo post around here discussing the multitude of veggies and herbs and greens I grow. I make my own soap, all of it, and live a pretty green life. I shop local and don't even own a dishwasher. Trading in my vegan badge wasn't the hardest thing I have ever done....It registers on the stress scale but it is manageable.

I'll never tell anyone how to eat or what to eat or why or how but I will share if you ask me to:P

[Tuscanytrace]

We do organic, free range everything here. BUT: I don't pay "extra"--or not very much. I have found groups of like-minded people, and we will buy a whole, half, or quarter cow or bison, or a whole or half hog, or a whole lamb together. All organic, grass-fed, from local farmers. In this way we pay around $3-$4 per lb. for ALL cuts of beef (including porterhouse steaks!), $4-$5 for bison, $2-$3 for pork and around $5-$6 for lamb. Especially when you consider basic ground beef is over $3 a lb. in my area, I'm not really paying extra. I could go to Whole Paycheck and spend $8 or more per lb. for organic, non-free-range beef.

What I did is just started conversations with people on the topic, and with only 3-4 people, you can split a beef quarter or half a hog. Especially splitting a beef quarter among 4, you can fit it in the average fridge's freezer. We even go for "heritage" breeds.

Here's a perspective on the topic one of our farmers brought up: if people didn't eat meat, many of these species would have died out. Cows are large enough, and dangerous enough when wild, that had they not been domesticated and selectively bred, either humans or large predators would have gotten them centuries ago. And you can't leave wild boar loose in populated areas, no more than you can take no precautions around alligators. Even domesticated swine are VERY dangerous! So, rather than being more ethical, if everyone was vegan, these breeds would be endangered, if not extinct.

And pasture-fed animals grow more slowly, so they DO have longer to live--probably much more lifespan than they'd get in the wild, where predators would be targeting their young. While they're alive they're safe from being hunted; they get medical attention if they're sick; and they're kept in optimal conditions for their kind. THAT, to me, is ethical.

[flourchild]

I pay extra for "organic" and "free range" if the product appears to be superior. But I'm aware those terms have very little meaning or definition in the dietary sense. Everything from earth is "organic", so what does that really mean? Arsenic is organic. Whereas if I buy something Kosher, I know it has to meet specific, consistent requirements that makes the designation relevant.

I try not to have ethical dilemmas about food to the point I cut out things entirely, because then I wouldn't be able to eat anything. I work at being a conscious consumer, yes. But in the end, consider the industry as a whole and you might find yourself asking, as I have: Are dairy cows being pampered before milk is gently extracted for my cheese? Are bees being purred to before their honeycombs are harvested? Did the farmworker who picked my stevia have enough shade in the field? Was the farmer who cultivated my asparagus, fairly treated by the supermarket buyer? Was the trucker who brought this food to my local market, allowed to get enough sleep to drive safely?

It's easy to fixate on meat production - but unless we grow, kill and deliver all our own food, we may still have a plateful of ethical dilemmas to consider.

[speedymagee]

Originally Posted by Tuscanytrace

We do organic, free range everything here. BUT: I don't pay "extra"--or not very much. I have found groups of like-minded people, and we will buy a whole, half, or quarter cow or bison, or a whole or half hog, or a whole lamb together. All organic, grass-fed, from local farmers. In this way we pay around $3-$4 per lb. for ALL cuts of beef (including porterhouse steaks!), $4-$5 for bison, $2-$3 for pork and around $5-$6 for lamb. Especially when you consider basic ground beef is over $3 a lb. in my area, I'm not really paying extra. I could go to Whole Paycheck and spend $8 or more per lb. for organic, non-free-range beef.

What I did is just started conversations with people on the topic, and with only 3-4 people, you can split a beef quarter or half a hog. Especially splitting a beef quarter among 4, you can fit it in the average fridge's freezer. We even go for "heritage" breeds.

Here's a perspective on the topic one of our farmers brought up: if people didn't eat meat, many of these species would have died out. Cows are large enough, and dangerous enough when wild, that had they not been domesticated and selectively bred, either humans or large predators would have gotten them centuries ago. And you can't leave wild boar loose in populated areas, no more than you can take no precautions around alligators. Even domesticated swine are VERY dangerous! So, rather than being more ethical, if everyone was vegan, these breeds would be endangered, if not extinct.

And pasture-fed animals grow more slowly, so they DO have longer to live--probably much more lifespan than they'd get in the wild, where predators would be targeting their young. While they're alive they're safe from being hunted; they get medical attention if they're sick; and they're kept in optimal conditions for their kind. THAT, to me, is ethical.

Thanks! This has got me thinking, maybe I can find 2 or 3 people to buy with!

[speedymagee]

Originally Posted by flourchild

I pay extra for "organic" and "free range" if the product appears to be superior. But I'm aware those terms have very little meaning or definition in the dietary sense. Everything from earth is "organic", so what does that really mean? Arsenic is organic. Whereas if I buy something Kosher, I know it has to meet specific, consistent requirements that makes the designation relevant.

I try not to have ethical dilemmas about food to the point I cut out things entirely, because then I wouldn't be able to eat anything. I work at being a conscious consumer, yes. But in the end, consider the industry as a whole and you might find yourself asking, as I have: Are dairy cows being pampered before milk is gently extracted for my cheese? Are bees being purred to before their honeycombs are harvested? Did the farmworker who picked my stevia have enough shade in the field? Was the farmer who cultivated my asparagus, fairly treated by the supermarket buyer? Was the trucker who brought this food to my local market, allowed to get enough sleep to drive safely?

It's easy to fixate on meat production - but unless we grow, kill and deliver all our own food, we may still have a plateful of ethical dilemmas to consider.

Very thoughtful post. A lot of slaughterhouse workers here are immigrants and poorly paid. Even if you leave out the meat eating dilemma, there is always the people working for low wages in a dangerous job to consider. So I take your point. Thanks for posting.