Is it possible that low calorie works better than low carb for some people?

[fawn]

..........and at the end of the day, no one should be hungry to lose weight and if you are it is best served to repair your metabolism which can be done but takes much trial and error.

[MarblesLongGone]

Originally Posted by fawn

..........and at the end of the day, no one should be hungry to lose weight and if you are it is best served to repair your metabolism which can be done but takes much trial and error.

I've done tech support at a diet franchise. The employees were really mean. I don't mean to me as a tech so much, but to their customers. When I made a crack about how nasty and mean they were, DH told me to take it easy on them, they aren't allowed to eat!

Re: meanness to customers, one person was in with her saleswoman, whoops, counselor. She was LITERALLY CRYING. "I like chocolate, but I don't like chocolate cake, can't I trade the one day's chocolate cake for another lemon dessert?"
"Not on your plan. You'd have to go from <list subscription level here> to <more expensive subscription level here> to have your food preferences influence your diet plan!"

Geez, I was already ticked off at an all TV dinner diet plan, but that was utterly stripping the woman of any shred of dignity that she had!

[wifezilla]

She was probably craving chocolate because she was magnesium depleated or something like that. Gezz.

[wifezilla]

no one should be hungry to lose weight and if you are it is best served to repair your metabolism which can be done but takes much trial and error.

And TIME! Patience grasshopper

[fawn]

yes wifezilla my friend....time

Dyan.....It's so sad isn't it? I watch people being intimidated every day in my business and it sickens me. this is Real Estate! Where one is spending the largest sum of money in their life times!

[MarblesLongGone]

Originally Posted by fawn

yes wifezilla my friend....time

Dyan.....It's so sad isn't it? I watch people being intimidated every day in my business and it sickens me. this is Real Estate! Where one is spending the largest sum of money in their life times!

We went thorough quite a few agents before we could find one who would show us the homes that we found online, and other homes that fit our criterion. They pre-qualified us for something obscene like $250,000. We were looking for something under $100,000, which, in SW Ohio is VERY do-able! We got a rehab house. Our loan was under $90k with all new HVAC, all new windows, all new plumbing, paint job top to bottom. We still have some work to do, but we are working with the way that things are right now. When people told us to spend more, we said NO! Right after we got the house, DH lost his job, and we still haven't missed a payment. Had we followed the advice of others, we'd have been up a creek!

[Ilpirata]

They pre-qualified us for something obscene like $250,000. We were looking for something under $100,000, which, in SW Ohio is VERY do-able!

*swoons in Northern California Awe*

[MarblesLongGone]

Originally Posted by Ilpirata

*swoons in Northern California Awe*

I recall sending an MLS listing for a house on 2.2 acres, with an 18 x 24 family room, for somewhere between $67,000 and $34,000 (I saw it for sale 2x!) It is subject to BAD divorces! I wanted THAT house BADLY! One of my CA buddies FLIPPED!

[fawn]

Originally Posted by Ilpirata

*swoons in Northern California Awe*

Care to pack up and move to Ohio with me?

Margbles, that is so cool that you finally found someone! DH and I can honestly say we have no foreclosures from previous sales. We knew the bubble would burst eventually and I refused to watch clients get "dummy letters" about additional income form friends and relatives.....
I lost sales due to refusal of behavior such as this. But, I can look my clients in the eyes!
Sorry to threadjack btw!

[MarblesLongGone]

We had one who wouldn't show a home under $500,000. It's hard to FIND a home that high around here. She was a twit!

Just an aside, Peter Frampton lives in Cincinnati. Can you imagine how much more of his money he can hold on to living in an area with a low cost of living? He is NOT in the cheap seats, but if he had what he has elsewhere, SHUDDER!

[yoshi]

Hi, heythatsfun! Have you had any blood work down that shows elevated liver enzymes? I've tried several times to do very low carb and ended up giving up because I couldn't shake the induction flu. This last time, I was determined to stick it out or die trying. The induction flu got really bad, and I decided I really didn't want to die, so I went to the doc. It turned out my induction flu was actually a build up of lactic acid, which can be fatal when it becomes lactic acidosis. I have liver problems. My liver doc said I am one of those people who should not be on a very low carb diet. The absolute lowest my carbs should be per day is 100 (my GP said 60, but I think I'll side with the specialist). He said no matter how hard I try or want it to, my liver is not going to process my body fat for fuel unless I take in enough carbs to stoke the furnace. Without enough carbs, my body is breaking down muscle and organ tissue for quick fuel, which makes me feel so ill.

I was devastated because I really wanted the induction-type low carb to work. The first couple of days on low carb, I felt great. My blood sugar was down in more normal levels, I didn't have indigestion at all and I didn't feel that bloated, heavy feeling after eating. But that was before my body had depleted the carb stores in my liver and muscles. I kept trying because I wanted to get back to how I'd felt those first couple of days. I was so bummed out and depressed. My low carb penpals stopped writing to me as soon as I told them what had happened (nice to know who your friends are when the chips are down). I felt abandoned and totally alone. I was ready to give up and not care anymore if I gained more weight.

I work in a library. One of the perks is getting first crack at new books that come in for processing. One of the new books changed my life and thinking. It's called "The Sugar Fix" by Richard K. Johnson. It's about eliminating fructose, corn syrup and high fructose corn syrup from your diet. It opened my eyes to how many foods we eat, even on low carb, that have corn syrup in them. After nearly 2 weeks, I feel pretty good. I'm eating starchy vegetables and limited amounts of certain fruits, and still doing okay. I've discovered it isn't all carbs I have a problem with. My demons are mainly corn syrup and fructose. I'm not trying to tell you to dump your low carb efforts. I'm just sharing with you where I've been and what finally seems to be working for me.

Hugs.

[Bonnie]

I have done low calorie for years but I was hungry doing it. LC naturally keeps my calories down - even though I'm not trying to - but I'm not hungry doing it. I do feel better when I'm not eating the starchy sugary carbs and that is why I stick with it, but I know I am also doing lower calorie as a result of it.

[Questions]

Originally Posted by yoshi

He said no matter how hard I try or want it to, my liver is not going to process my body fat for fuel unless I take in enough carbs to stoke the furnace. Without enough carbs, my body is breaking down muscle and organ tissue for quick fuel, which makes me feel so ill.

Sorry to butt in, but I was wondering if he gave you a description of the mechanism behind that? IOW, what exactly is you liver doing to prevent glucagon from releasing fatty acids from the cells, or what is it doing to prevent them from being used as fuel - and how does the presence of carbs and the insulin production they stimulate correct for that?

I'm not trying refute it, just wondering how that might work. Thanks.

[yoshi]

Questions – I was trying to condense the information the doctor gave me so my reply wouldn’t be so long. Here is some of the data I was trying to interpret:

“In the absence of adequate carbohydrate for fuel, the body initially uses protein (muscle) and fat. The initial phase of muscle depletion is rapid, caused by the use of easily accessed muscle protein for direct metabolism or for conversion to glucose (gluconeogenesis) for fuel. Eating excess protein does not prevent this because there is a caloric deficit. When insulin levels are chronically too low, as they may be in very low carbohydrate consumption, catabolism (breakdown) of muscle protein increases, and protein synthesis stops.”

“When a dieter isn’t getting enough carbohydrates from food, the body is forced to obtain glucose for the brain and red blood cells through extraordinary measures. The liver, and to a lesser extent the kidneys, must metabolize protein to form the essential glucose needed by the brain and red blood cells. Over a period of weeks, the process of glucose formation from protein in the liver wastes away body protein in the form of muscle mass. The stress of glucose metabolism from proteins can cause the overburdened liver to form ketones. These metabolic byproducts give the characteristic fruity breath to people on low carb diets. Ketones can cause electrolyte imbalances in the body by pulling sodium and potassium into the urine, as the kidneys struggle to excrete the ketones. This causes an unhealthy physiological state called ketosis, a type of metabolic acidosis. Excess acetyl CoA cannot enter the citric acid cycle, also known as the Tricarboxylic Acid cycle (TCA cycle) or Krebs cycle. In other words, for fat to burn efficiently and without production of excess toxic ketones, sufficient carbohydrates must be available. “

“Ketoacidosis is a type of metabolic acidosis which is caused by high concentration of ketone bodies, formed by the deamination of amino acids, and the breakdown of fatty acids. The two common ketones produced in humans are acetoacetic acid and ß-hydroxybutyrate. Ketoacidosis should not be confused with ketosis, which is one of the body’s normal processes for the metabolism of body fat. Ketoacidosis occurs when cells do not have sufficient glucose to meet their metabolic demands. Instead, ketone bodies are produced for energy via the metabolism of fatty acids. Acidity results from the dissociation of the H+ ion at physiological pH of metabolic ketone bodies such as acetoacetate and ß-hydroxybutyrate. The body is unable to synthesize enough glucose to meet its needs, thus creating an energy crisis resulting in fatty acid metabolism and ketone body formation.”

“Lactic acidosis, a distinct form of metabolic acidosis, is a condition caused by the buildup of lactic acid in the body. The cells produce lactic acid when they use glucose for energy in the absence of adequate oxygen. If too much lactic acid stays in the body, the balance tips and the person begins to feel ill. The signs of lactic acidosis are deep and rapid breathing, vomiting and abdominal pain. Lactic acidosis may be caused by ketoacidosis or liver or kidney disease, as well as some forms of medication (most notably the anti-diabetic drug Metformin).”

There it is. Before anyone misunderstands and thinks low carb diets and ketosis are bad, let me remind you that the above information was given to me by a doctor who specializes in liver disorders and pertains to people, like me, with liver disease. Some people with certain liver conditions are even helped by low carb diets. Your average person with a healthy liver should have no problem being in ketosis. Instead of saying “stoking the fire,” I should have said my liver cannot metabolize fats normally unless I maintain a certain level of carbohydrate consumption to keep the ketones from building up to dangerous levels. During the first couple of days on low carb, my body used up the glycogen stores in my liver and muscles and then started breaking down muscle tissue for quick energy. That’s usually the point when you start feeling the induction flu. Normally, at this point, the body will switch to burning fat and using ketones for energy. In my case, my body breaks down the fats but can’t utilize the ketones and keeps going after muscle and organ tissue. I had this problem a year ago when I was taking Metformin and began developing lactic acidosis. I did not know one of Metformin’s jobs is to block carb absorption, sort of like a carb-blocker, until my liver doc explained it to me. If I had known why I couldn’t take Metformin, I would never have tried to go so low on the carbs.

I hope this info helps to clear up the confusion. I think low carb is a good plan for the people who can do it. I wish I’d been one of those people. But I’m not. I hope my experiences can help others who have been struggling like I have to understand why low carbing made them feel so sick long after the induction flu should have ended, and to seek help before they end up in the hospital, or worse. I’ve learned a lot from trying low carb about eliminating processed foods and junk food and learning to cook and eat real food. So, I don’t think any of the time I spent trying to make it work was wasted time.

I had a long day at work, and I’m tired, so I’ll get off my soap box.

Hugs.

[Questions]

Originally Posted by yoshi

“When a dieter isn’t getting enough carbohydrates from food, the body is forced to obtain glucose for the brain and red blood cells through extraordinary measures.

While not trying to dispute your doctor's advice, this sentence seems to be the basis of his theory, but I believe that it is largely refuted by more current knowledge. As I understand it, Ketones produced from fat can be used directly to fuel these functions.

It's covered in "Good calories/Bad calories" as well as other Low Carb references.

Again, I would not dispute his advice because I am not a doctor nor do I know your medical condition. But since it is very common for even the best of doctors to be ill-informed about the metabolism of a low carb dieter, and since his premise is one of the common mistake those doctors make, I would not stop trying to find more answers, while yet following his advice.