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feather319 05-27-2008 04:40 PM

Citric Acid and ketosis??
 
So I'm reading how citric acid can prevent or hinder ketosis. This never dawned on me in the past. Citric acid is in everything I consume - davinci, unsweetened kool-aid, diet soda!!! They are my only "cheats." Has anyone been close to maintenance been able to stay in ketosis while consuming citric acid?

I researched the kreb's cycle and cori cycle and am trying to figure out why citric acid disrupts ketosis. Is this a hypothesis or is there scientific evidence?

MarblesLongGone 05-27-2008 07:57 PM

There are diet docs who also specialize in insulin control diet that would not approve of the artificial sweeteners that you are consuming... (The Hellers of the Carbohydrate Addicts books forbid artificial sweeteners!) It may be the citric acid, but I'd be more likely to point my fingers at the sweeteners. Could you TRY going 2 weeks on just whole, real foods, no Frankenfoods? You won't believe how clear you feel after you get away from that rot.

feather319 05-27-2008 08:19 PM

I don't consume aspartame (rarely). Most of my diet is whole foods - real meat and raw veggies. I hardly ever eat cooked veggies or processed meat. Most of my diet is VERY clean. Except for my coffee in the morning with my davinci and splenda and also my kool-aid and/or diet rite in the afternoon.

I know artificial sweeteners stall but my question is citric acid. I just wanted some science of WHY this happens with citric acid. I love chemistry and learning about the body - that's all.

MarblesLongGone 05-27-2008 08:58 PM

I didn't know what percentage of what was what in your diet, so I didn't know if you were on 60% Frankenfoods, and having issues, or occasionally snagged a treat. I read everything that I can get my hands on too, even if the studies conflict, I take note! I'll have to experiment with plain citric acid, as I keep that onhand. I used to use it to dry fruit, and I can put it on the cut edge of an avocado if I don't finish it all at once... rarely does that leftover piece have a chance to get cold in the fridge...

Carleigh 05-27-2008 09:35 PM

<I really have no advice, but I came across something similar a while back in my own research...>

When I was looking into anti-Candida diets, most lists of what NOT to eat include that citric acid too (in addition to more obvious no-nos like sugar, most grains, alcohol, etc.).

“Preservatives including citric acid which are frequently derived from yeasts [not naturally derived] and in any case introduce unnecessary chemicals into the body."

From Rainbow Minerals website:
"Although fruits yield citric acid and malic acid, these acids are oxidized by the body as part of its energy-production process."

My thoughts: So if the body is using citric acid for energy, maybe that detracts from using fat for energy first or instead, possibly affecting ketosis?? Thoughts? Bueller?

GGWilson 05-28-2008 04:46 AM

I noticed that when I consumed drinks w/ citric acid my face would break out terribly and there are a lot of sugar free drinks made with this. I'm not sure about it effecting ketosis but I do know that the only diet soda w/o citric acid is Diet Dr. Pepper so if I feel the need for a soda that's what I'll drink otherwise I avoid most other s/f drinks and stick to water.

I did a little googling on the subject and basically have found that its one of those things that varies by person. If you think this might be hindering YOUR loss, then try to eliminate it and see if it makes a difference.

feather319 05-29-2008 08:37 PM

So what's the difference between citric acid, citrate, potassium citrate, sodium citrate, and citric sodium? I have see all of these used on packaged drinks. Are they all the same thing?

feather319 05-29-2008 08:50 PM

Okay, I just found this

Citrate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Role in Glycolysis

High concentration of citrate can inhibit phosphofructokinase, the pace-maker of glycolysis.

Also, this:
Citric acid cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Citrate is used for feedback inhibition, as it inhibits phosphofructokinase, an enzyme involved in glycolysis that catalyses formation of fructose 1,6-bisphosphate, a precursor of pyruvate. This prevents a constant high rate of flux when there is an accumulation of citrate and a decrease in substrate for the enzyme.

------------
So, does that mean that citrate prevents sugar from breaking down into pyruvate which in turn would mean excess sugar would be floating around in your blood which then could be stored as fat?

amiga74 05-29-2008 08:55 PM

i have no idea what the difference is among those things. you could do an internet search.

Lyle McDonald has talked about citric acid a little, suggesting its one of those ymmv things in terms of weight loss.

In his book "The Ketogenic Diet" (pg 116) he says the following:

"Citric acid and aspartame

In all likelihood, problems with diet soda relate to one of these two compounds, both of which are used as artificial sweeteners in diet products. Citric acid may inhibit ketosis and diet sodas containing citric acid or aspartame are not allowed for epileptic children on the ketogenic diet. However, there is some debate over this point. Possibly, citric acid might affect ketosis by affecting liver metabolism, primarily the Krebs cycle. Some individuals report that citric acid prevents them from entering ketosis but does not affect ketosis once it has been established. One study, examining very-low-calorie diets, found that the consumption of citric acid inhibited ketosis and increased appetite in many individuals. Ultimately, individuals will have to determine for themselves whether citric acid or aspartame has any effect on ketosis, appetite or fat loss on a ketogenic diet."

amiga74 05-30-2008 10:39 AM

is citric acid the same thing as aspartame?

MarblesLongGone 06-01-2008 08:37 AM

No, citric acid is a sour thing, like all acids. It is what makes citrus fruits sour. It is also a good preservative.

ravenrose 07-26-2010 12:18 PM

Besides personal anecdotal stories, does anyone have any more recent knowledge of this subject?

eraser51 03-06-2014 03:45 AM

also interested

Is there any research at all?

I only saw the diet doctor blog which tested it but noone knows how legit that is :/

Are there studys or just "I heard of" things?

theprof73 03-11-2014 12:19 PM

Citrate and ketosis
 
1. All the citrates and citric acid (CA) are the same as far as the body is concerned.

2. Citric Acid Cycle (CAC) stops in ketosis and when you eat enough CA, you can restart it, at least temporarily. It all boils down to Acetyl units, which are two-carbon chains. Normally the body converts fat and any excess carbs (and some excess proteins) to and from these Acetyl units (basically vinegar bound to a carrier protein called CoA). The CAC starts with oxaloacetate, adds the acetyl unit and this becomes CA. Through several steps the body very efficiently makes energy and ends up back at oxaloacetate. The process then restarts with another acetyl. When you eat enough CA, that CA goes through the energy making process and ends up at oxaloacetate and another acetyl sends it around again, etc.
In ketosis, the liver scrounges all the oxaloacetate (which it can convert to sugar through gluconeogenesis) to meet its fundamental obligation to provide carbohydrates to tissues that CAN NOT burn anything else. The acetyl units end up being used to make ketone bodies instead of going through the CAC- this is ketosis. By restarting the CAC, you are short circuiting ketosis. Eventually, the liver will re-scrounge all the oxaloacetate, but if you eat enough CA consistently, the short circuit will persist.

mulberry 03-12-2014 10:51 AM

another ketosis question
 
I am so impressed and delighted:clap: with the number of really intelligent people on this board! On this subject of citric acid and ketosis (as well as using artificial sweeteners...especially Stevia)...........
Here is my question, if anyone would care to answer--
1. If one must be in a state of ketosis to lose weight, and ingesting citric acid or artificial sweetener inhibits the process----how do you explain the hundreds of people who lose large amounts of weight on various other diets that don't even mention ketosis and include diet soda, diet desserts and sweetener in their coffee, etc. every day :confused:?

Leo41 03-12-2014 10:57 AM

Being in ketosis is not necessary to lose weight. As you point out, many, many people lose weight without being in ketosis or even eating low carb.

Being in ketosis is often a by-product of low-carb eating, but it is not a physiological necessity for weight loss.

eraser51 03-12-2014 12:56 PM

is someone following a specific calculation?

i heard the atkins books has some table or such thing to guess or estimate the calorie amount. I only have the old book where it is more like "...well.... maybe 2000kcal... or not. " so not very precise

mimivac 03-12-2014 01:07 PM

I eat low carb, high fat and am rarely in ketosis. I don't have appetite supression, but it has not stopped me from losing weight.

eraser51 03-12-2014 01:18 PM

rarely in ketosis? well sounds like me :)

do you eat your BMR/RMR or more/less?
did you guess it? measured it? tried it? calculated it?

mimivac 03-12-2014 01:19 PM

Honestly, I'm not sure. I eat to hunger or less and am fine with it as long as I keep losing!

eraser51 03-16-2014 12:59 PM

sorry to ask again but I have just seen a study on sweeteners and milk

Coke vs. Diet Coke vs. Milk - The "Unhealthy Beverage Shoot-Out": Milk Reduces, Coke Increases Visceral Fat. Dreaded Diet Coke on Par With Plain Water - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

cool stuff but with 1 L milk, I would easily hit my carb limit :/

anyway it is quite interesting but it is the only study I have found.. none else..

someone know studies regarding weight GAIN / visceral fat GAIN and artificial sweeteners? or something like this?

so we could conclude: aspartame safe or not.. or citric acid safe or not?

eraser51 09-19-2014 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprof73 (Post 16832694)
1. All the citrates and citric acid (CA) are the same as far as the body is concerned.

2. Citric Acid Cycle (CAC) stops in ketosis and when you eat enough CA, you can restart it, at least temporarily. It all boils down to Acetyl units, which are two-carbon chains. Normally the body converts fat and any excess carbs (and some excess proteins) to and from these Acetyl units (basically vinegar bound to a carrier protein called CoA). The CAC starts with oxaloacetate, adds the acetyl unit and this becomes CA. Through several steps the body very efficiently makes energy and ends up back at oxaloacetate. The process then restarts with another acetyl. When you eat enough CA, that CA goes through the energy making process and ends up at oxaloacetate and another acetyl sends it around again, etc.
In ketosis, the liver scrounges all the oxaloacetate (which it can convert to sugar through gluconeogenesis) to meet its fundamental obligation to provide carbohydrates to tissues that CAN NOT burn anything else. The acetyl units end up being used to make ketone bodies instead of going through the CAC- this is ketosis. By restarting the CAC, you are short circuiting ketosis. Eventually, the liver will re-scrounge all the oxaloacetate, but if you eat enough CA consistently, the short circuit will persist.

can you tell me more about this?
is there a study or even better a chart of it??

can I drink anything without acid in it?
I scanned the supermarket shelfs and look out for aspartame but guess the phosphoric acid and or citric acid is stalling me :(

Tried alternatives like 2carbs or 1,5 carbs soda water with flavour like lemon or stuff but they all contain of course acid...


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