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Old 11-06-2007, 04:31 PM   #1
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Increased hunger and blood sugar problems AFTER PROTEIN with low fat...a solution

For many months (years?) I have been confounded by this PROBLEM: a spike in hunger, and unstable blood sugar, if I ate a meal that was high in protein, and low in fat. I have known others who also had this problem, others like myself who seem to have crazy sensitive insulin systems (i.e. overproducing) with a big sensitivity to sugar swings and hypoglycemia.

So I figured out the solution to it.

Last night, I had one of those kinds of dinners where I knew I would just feel hungrier afterward stirfry beef and broccoli, very low carbs, lots of low carb veggies... mother, bless her, she trimmed all the fat off the steak ... I knew I was gonna be unsatisfiable after eating this).
So I was lying in bed crazy hungry even though I shouldn't have been (I was *barely* hungry before dinner)... when it occurred to me that in addition to hunger, my stomach was really churning and burning. HMMMM...

Then I remembered a discussion we had on the forum regarding vinegar/acidic foods (the ACV thread).
There is a lot of misunderstanding about why ACV works for so many conditions... but, the effect is well observed in scientific research and it is pretty conclusive that it is related to organic acid food causing a more favorable balance of digestive hormones. The short story is that vinegars and acids are similar to what low carb does. An acidic food, a food with a very low pH, will slow down the whole rate at which food is digested.

Anyway, back to my situation. So I'm sitting there, crazy churning stomach, irrational hunger, and a lot of burning in my stomach... now given what i know of the basic physiology of digestion (protein alone will increase production of digestive enzymes because proteins require a lot of stomach acid to break down; on the other hand, acidic foods will decrease stomach acid to maintain pH in the target range for the small intestine...and stomach acid in digestion is made by gastrin and gastrin has other effects on digestion besides just makin' acid...)

I put one and one together and realized that protein without fat was causing an imbalance in digestive secretions which promoted hunger; protein requires more gastrin production... and a high release gastrin will cause all of the symptoms I am experiencing... INCLUDING hunger and unstable blood sugar ("shakiness") via insulin.

If this is true, then it is also true that eating something which requires little digestion, that is very acidic, will make the symptoms better (e.g. pickles, or salad with vinegarette). The acids, promote release of secretin, which antagonizes gastrin.

So I set up a bowl of coleslaw mix plus low cal dressing plus extra vinegar on top.

Guess what? It stopped a lot within a few minutes.
For so many years I wondered if I was CRAZY feeling hungrier and blood sugar problems after a southbeach-like meal (low carb veg, lean meat)... now I know why. Gastrin.
Protein plus low carb veggies is especially unbalancing, distention of the stomach stimulates the vagal nerve which is another catalyst for the release of both gastrin and insulin (and all of those veggies distends the stomach). Ironic, considering a meal of lean meat and veggies is considered "healthy" when the reality is it may be more obesigenic than a low volume high fat meal (and a resounding DUH fills the room, as all of us who are morbidly obese and discover low carb intuitively know: small meals of high fat satiate best).

The reason fat meat protects is because fat promotes the release of CCK (cholecystokinnin); cck also slows down digestion and helps to antagonize gastrin as well. So either very high fat OR vinegar is necessary part of a meal for me.


SOOO...
If anyone else is plagued by this problem (hunger and blood sugar problems and possibly indigestion when eating a "healthy" lean meat and low carb vegs without great deal of fat)... this might also work for you. If your only option is lower fat, then taking acids with the meal will do much to attenuate the hunger and blood sugar problems associated with overproduction of gastrin.

Last edited by ItsTheWooo; 11-06-2007 at 04:33 PM..
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Old 11-06-2007, 04:36 PM   #2
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BTW, today I had the same meal I had yesterday except this time I added a tablespoon of asian rice wine vinegar. I feel totally satisfied. I never, ever, ever feel like this after this kind of meal. I'm always going back to nibble, just a bit more. It can't be a fluke, my whole time on low carb I've not felt this way after eating leaner meats and veggies.

Incredible.
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Old 11-06-2007, 04:40 PM   #3
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Old 11-06-2007, 05:37 PM   #4
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This is actually really intersting, they're discovering gastrin has a role in regulating body weight and insulin levels. When the genes affecting gastrin are altered in mice they become fat and hyperinsulinemic.

It might be making more insulin that makes us gain weight, but it could be genes which affect digestion that actually allow this process (obesity) to initiate. I mean slight imbalances in digestive hormones, can profoundly affect hunger, and food craving, and insulin production; and not everyone gets it when they eat cereal (or to the same degree). This is fascinating, and I wish there were more info about it.

From what I've read so far this past hour, gastrin looks very similar to cck (cck, cholyecystokinnin, is a well know appetite-suppressing hormone, and probably a major reason low carb is anti-obesigenic, as CCK is made in abundance when the meal is high in fat).

Lacking the receptors to properly perceive gastrin OR to make gastrin, produces obesity... possibly through CCK (but I'm sure also through many other venues as this could not explain the hyperinsulinemia).

It might be that huge fatties like me, have some kind of gene defect in these receptors.
Low carb helps, because eating more fat produces more cck which can help normalize feeding behavior (i.e. it takes more CCK to perceive "I'm full" because possibly my receptors do not work properly?)

The overproduction of gastrin, in situations that would promote it (high protein, low fat/low carb)... this would be evidence that receptors for gastrin regulation aren't proper (much in the way hyperinsulinemia in the type 2 diabetic indicates a decreased sensitivity, producing too much gastrin might be an indication of genetic abnormalities in cck / gastrin receptors)

And my personal observations are it is those who are the most obese who seem to respond most strongly the way I do to such high protein, low fat, high bulk meals.

So interesting.
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Old 11-06-2007, 05:39 PM   #5
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Itsthewoo, thanks for this post. I have been feeling hungry very frequently after meals recently. I will pay attention to this.
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Old 11-06-2007, 05:45 PM   #6
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Now I understand the reasoning behind the grapefruit diet which had you drink grapefruit juice or eat grapefruit before a meal-must have followed the same reasoning about the acid.
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Old 11-06-2007, 05:48 PM   #7
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Now I understand the reasoning behind the grapefruit diet which had you drink grapefruit juice or eat grapefruit before a meal-must have followed the same reasoning about the acid.
If it works at all, that's probably why. Grapefruit has very few carbs and is very bitter and acidic.
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Old 11-06-2007, 05:53 PM   #8
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If it works at all, that's probably why. Grapefruit has very few carbs and is very bitter and acidic.
I know that's why I never tried this fad diet.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:48 PM   #9
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:57 PM   #10
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Very interesting
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:09 PM   #11
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ItstheWoo: Wow..this is very interesting..and probably why Dr. Atkins prefers salad dressing to be vinegar/oil and herbs.

Vinegar and cukes with some splenda is really good..

We could make a marinated salad and keep it in the fridge for a few days..don't you think??
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Old 11-07-2007, 07:13 AM   #12
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Very interesting post!
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Old 11-07-2007, 07:27 AM   #13
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So, could vinegar actually assist the digestion of, say, potatoes?

After reading this my mind spun this big fairy tale that the REAL reason the Brits eat vinegar with thier "chips" (fries) is to help them digest easier...

I am reaching here...but so curious!
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Old 11-07-2007, 07:31 AM   #14
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We could make a marinated salad and keep it in the fridge for a few days..don't you think??
Yes! or Vlasic makes SF sweet pickles. I looooove marinated artichoke hearts. What I need is SF pickled beets (in very small portions).
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Old 11-07-2007, 07:54 AM   #15
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Thank you so much for posting this! I've been hungry since the day I was born and have known for a long time that there is something different about how my body reacts to food. I am either hungry or full. My body doesn't recognize anything in between. In about 5 minutes I can go from being stuffed to feeling hungry again. Low carb, higher fat does help a lot, but not enough.

Do you think ACV tablets before each meal would work the same way? I don't really like vinegar all that much and have never liked highly acidic foods.

As always, thanks for sharing your wealth of information!....And for your inquisitive mind that keeps on trying to figure it all out.....
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Old 11-07-2007, 08:08 AM   #16
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So... a good idea would be to add pickles with every meal..?
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Old 11-07-2007, 08:36 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo View Post
This is actually really intersting, they're discovering gastrin has a role in regulating body weight and insulin levels. When the genes affecting gastrin are altered in mice they become fat and hyperinsulinemic.

It might be making more insulin that makes us gain weight, but it could be genes which affect digestion that actually allow this process (obesity) to initiate. I mean slight imbalances in digestive hormones, can profoundly affect hunger, and food craving, and insulin production; and not everyone gets it when they eat cereal (or to the same degree). This is fascinating, and I wish there were more info about it.

From what I've read so far this past hour, gastrin looks very similar to cck (cck, cholyecystokinnin, is a well know appetite-suppressing hormone, and probably a major reason low carb is anti-obesigenic, as CCK is made in abundance when the meal is high in fat).

Lacking the receptors to properly perceive gastrin OR to make gastrin, produces obesity... possibly through CCK (but I'm sure also through many other venues as this could not explain the hyperinsulinemia).

It might be that huge fatties like me, have some kind of gene defect in these receptors.
Low carb helps, because eating more fat produces more cck which can help normalize feeding behavior (i.e. it takes more CCK to perceive "I'm full" because possibly my receptors do not work properly?)

The overproduction of gastrin, in situations that would promote it (high protein, low fat/low carb)... this would be evidence that receptors for gastrin regulation aren't proper (much in the way hyperinsulinemia in the type 2 diabetic indicates a decreased sensitivity, producing too much gastrin might be an indication of genetic abnormalities in cck / gastrin receptors)

And my personal observations are it is those who are the most obese who seem to respond most strongly the way I do to such high protein, low fat, high bulk meals.

So interesting.
okay, I am TOTALLY physiology challenged..but wouldn't the acid in doet sodas help that then?
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Old 11-07-2007, 08:45 AM   #18
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Does it matter when you have the acid type food? Many Europeans, the French anyway, like to finish their meal with a salad. They pretty much eat whatever they want, in smaller amounts than Americans. Could it be they eat more salads, or they eat them at the end of the meal? Then I was thinking maybe they eat more vinaigrette type salads. The Ranch style salad dressings are popular here, and they have less vinegar. Anyway, do you think it matters when you eat the acid type food?
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Old 11-07-2007, 08:54 AM   #19
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I wonder if drinking a glass of water with a sqeeze of lemon prior to eating would have the same effect? I can eat the pickles, but I'm not a huge vinegar fan.
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:09 AM   #20
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That's great information, and after reading this post and one yesterday on Apple Cider Vinegar, I'll be buying that tomorrow to take before my meals.
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:12 AM   #21
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Now I might know why my doctor says it may be my Vagal Nerve when I tell her about the blood sugar symptoms I have of feeling so hungry, shaky, and weak after I eat.
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:13 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolynF View Post
ItstheWoo: Wow..this is very interesting..and probably why Dr. Atkins prefers salad dressing to be vinegar/oil and herbs.

Vinegar and cukes with some splenda is really good..

We could make a marinated salad and keep it in the fridge for a few days..don't you think??
Sure, great idea... but salads tend to start to go to pot the minute the dressing hits them; a better idea might be to make the salad, and then make the dressing on the side, store both in the fridge but when ready to eat (or just before ready) mix the dressing with the salad.

Yes researchs affirm that eating vinegary veggies before an ad lib restaurant meal actually reduces food intake, whereas other foods lacking the vinegar will not.
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:22 AM   #23
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So, could vinegar actually assist the digestion of, say, potatoes?

After reading this my mind spun this big fairy tale that the REAL reason the Brits eat vinegar with thier "chips" (fries) is to help them digest easier...

I am reaching here...but so curious!
Yes, this is exactly what research shows.

A meal of cold potato salad (vinegar, plus starches naturally become resistent when heated and then cooled overnight)... it is MUCH better for blood sugar than an equal carb amount of fresh hot potatoes without vinegar.

Cooled sour dough bread (which has natural acids as part of the leavening) is much less worse for blood sugar than oven fresh whole meal or white of an equal carb amount.

When starches are heated and cooled, some naturally become resistant (our enzymes can't break them apart into sugars, thus they become effective fiber).
Plus vinegar... which does everything previously mentioned... then it's obvious to see why this effect is observed.

Do british people really eat vinegar to help digestion? Yes, theoretically vinegar would help indigestion associated with a very large meal of crap food by suppressign gastrin (directly due to low pH) and increasing secretin (secretin, which suppresses gastrin as a secondary action)... Hmmm, folk wisdom prevails.
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:42 AM   #24
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neat thanks for the research!
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:52 AM   #25
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Very interesting! Thanks for this post!
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:55 AM   #26
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Thank you so much for posting this! I've been hungry since the day I was born and have known for a long time that there is something different about how my body reacts to food. I am either hungry or full. My body doesn't recognize anything in between. In about 5 minutes I can go from being stuffed to feeling hungry again. Low carb, higher fat does help a lot, but not enough.

Do you think ACV tablets before each meal would work the same way? I don't really like vinegar all that much and have never liked highly acidic foods.

As always, thanks for sharing your wealth of information!....And for your inquisitive mind that keeps on trying to figure it all out.....
Well I don't know much about the tablets, but if they're made of vinegar, and if they dissolve proper, it should work to lower pH and balance digestive hormones out proper.

If you go from stuffed to hungry in 5 minutes, that's exactly like me and other obesity prone fatties . The bigger my meals get, the hungrier I become. I am hungrier after eating 3000 calories of giant meal(s) than after eating 1700 calories of small high fat meals.

Many obese people make the mistake of assuming a big meal is the way to cure hunger. For me, it always makes me hungrier long run (I do that stuffed-hungry thing too, it's probably pretty common for us fatties, genetic traits for digestive processes most likely behind it). The way to feel satiety is to keep meals small, high in fat, not to look for an instant off of stuffed feeling, but a more subtle "ok I don't NEED food anymore".

You should be looking for a satisfied feeling, content (CCK, interacts with opiate systems - produce that feeling of satisfaction, which all of us obese people know is a very fine difference from feeling full or stuffed, which is more of a physical sensation).
Trying to feel satisfied by feeling stuffed is just going to cause a rebound effect - the stretching stomach, hits up insulin, and cortisol, and then the shakes with low blood sugar a little bit later.

The satisfied feeling is what really controls feeding... which is why people who have abnormal serotonin systems, and other brain chemical problems, are often compulsive/binge eaters (deficiency / defect here is going to interfere with proper perception of satisfaction, including from food). And junkies become emaciated, because they've no satisfaction from food... no hunger... chronic nausea. All from being bathed in opiate constantly.

It might be that you are purposely trying to get that hit of insulin (which would increase synthesis of serotonin, which would then augment endorphin, stomatostatin, plus a whole lot more to shut off your digestion and hunger). Eating to the point of being stuffed is one way to hit it up. Carbs aren't the only way.

Some obese people have problems with serotonergic systems, and the binging behavior (consuming very large amounts of food at a meal) is a way for them to patch banadage it. Lots of insulin will make lots of serotonin, and if you're not making or regulating this properly, your feeding behavior will all center around whatever gets that serotonin/insulin up (thus binging, and possibly carb addiction). Being addicted to sugar, wheat and/or cheese is another sign (cheese and wheat are broken down into opiod like substances, and if there is a deficiency of serotonin, there is logically deficiency of endorphins. Sweet taste plus blood sugar rise will increase endogenous endorphin,, which is why sugar is especially favored by such people).

If this sounds like you, you might find 5-htp of a benefit; lotta reserach shows it majorly helps bulimics and binge eaters. 5-htp is the precursor to serotoin. It will help give a boost, without requiring a ton of insulin to do it.
Also, bright light exposure is another help. Binge and bulimia is much more of a problem for those in dark areas, like cities. For anyone who is already sensitive to this by genetics, deprivation of sunlight just makes the problem worse.
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Old 11-07-2007, 11:07 AM   #27
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okay, I am TOTALLY physiology challenged..but wouldn't the acid in doet sodas help that then?
The link I posted above says that it's acetic acid that's effective. The acid in colas is phosphoric acid.

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I wonder if drinking a glass of water with a sqeeze of lemon prior to eating would have the same effect? I can eat the pickles, but I'm not a huge vinegar fan.
Lemon is as good as vinegar.

Last edited by zelia; 11-07-2007 at 11:08 AM..
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Old 11-07-2007, 11:09 AM   #28
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The link I posted above says that it's acetic acid that's effective. The acid in colas is phosphoric acid.



Lemon is as good as vinegar.
what kind of vinegar..I have bouted with bl;oating for YEARS...is one kind better than the other and will a spoonfull suffice?
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Old 11-07-2007, 11:15 AM   #29
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if 5-htp is a building block to Tryptophan, and we cant eat things with 5-htp in it (other than that plant from which they make the supplement I suppose).. do you think eating foods with Tryptophan (which is a precursor to serotonin.. thereby skipping a step?) would be as good an idea?

THis would include chocolate, oats, bananas, yogurt, cottage cheese, red meat, eggs, fish, poultry, sesame, chickpeas, sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, spirulina, and peanuts - all good deals for LC

thanks for your reply
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Old 11-07-2007, 11:17 AM   #30
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aim :

I would say apple cider vinegar and not distilled grain vinegars. other than the acid, distilled grain vinegar offers nothing else. ACV may help with some issues our bodies have.
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