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Old 11-07-2007, 10:17 AM   #31
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I would say apple cider vinegar and not distilled grain vinegars. other than the acid, distilled grain vinegar offers nothing else. ACV may help with some issues our bodies have.
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:18 AM   #32
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ITW,
Thanks for posting this. This information really helps. I had just such an experience....Monday I ate leftover (lean) roast beef and a nice helping of veggies with "some" butter.....I began to get shaky almost immediately.

Today (and on other occasions) I ate a Greek salad with gyro meat (oil & vinegar dressing) and I stay quite sated every time. Very helpful!!!!

Question on the 5-htp; do places like GNC stock this? I've looked casually but never had much success. I'm thinking it would help me (I take an SSRI separately and can be prone to binging/overeating.)
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:31 AM   #33
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ITW,
Thanks for posting this. This information really helps. I had just such an experience....Monday I ate leftover (lean) roast beef and a nice helping of veggies with "some" butter.....I began to get shaky almost immediately.

Today (and on other occasions) I ate a Greek salad with gyro meat (oil & vinegar dressing) and I stay quite sated every time. Very helpful!!!!

Question on the 5-htp; do places like GNC stock this? I've looked casually but never had much success. I'm thinking it would help me (I take an SSRI separately and can be prone to binging/overeating.)
you cannot take 5-htp while taking other SSRI
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:36 AM   #34
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Wooo!

Thanks SO much for posting this.

This explains why after eating a meal consisting of nothing more than meat and homemade coleslaw/broccoli slaw (made with a good amount of vinegar) satisfies my whole family. It has become our favorite way to eat. My husband has commented several times lately, "Why is this just so satisfying?" Now we know why.

I really appreciate this!

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Old 11-07-2007, 01:10 PM   #35
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Some obese people have problems with serotonergic systems, and the binging behavior (consuming very large amounts of food at a meal) is a way for them to patch banadage it. Lots of insulin will make lots of serotonin, and if you're not making or regulating this properly, your feeding behavior will all center around whatever gets that serotonin/insulin up (thus binging, and possibly carb addiction). Being addicted to sugar, wheat and/or cheese is another sign (cheese and wheat are broken down into opiod like substances, and if there is a deficiency of serotonin, there is logically deficiency of endorphins. Sweet taste plus blood sugar rise will increase endogenous endorphin,, which is why sugar is especially favored by such people).

If this sounds like you, you might find 5-htp of a benefit; lotta reserach shows it majorly helps bulimics and binge eaters. 5-htp is the precursor to serotoin. It will help give a boost, without requiring a ton of insulin to do it.
Also, bright light exposure is another help. Binge and bulimia is much more of a problem for those in dark areas, like cities. For anyone who is already sensitive to this by genetics, deprivation of sunlight just makes the problem worse.
Thank you so much, Woo. You are so amazingly knowledgeable! I think you hit the nail on the head re: the serotonin issues....But I had never heard that about cheese. Cheese and wheat should be my middle names. I've always had issues. On low-carb I have a real problem with cheese. I've tried giving it up without much success. I will give the 5-htp another try. When I took it for insomnia it actually kept me up (sometimes all night). It took me weeks to figure out why I couldn't sleep. Maybe I'll try taking it in the a.m......
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Old 11-07-2007, 03:51 PM   #36
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So... a good idea would be to add pickles with every meal..?
well I wouldn't say that's a good idea because pickles with every meal would just be gross and faddish... but, basically all I'm saying is that acidifying food if given the opportunity is a good idea .
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Old 11-07-2007, 03:58 PM   #37
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okay, I am TOTALLY physiology challenged..but wouldn't the acid in doet sodas help that then?
Ya know, I really don't know. Technically, any acid should work... and it is shown, it works with citrus fruit, with sour dough bread, and of course any food with vinegar...
Diet soda, too, might also work. If all other things are equal, adding diet soda should contribute acid, which would do what all of these other foods are doing.

Just make sure to watch caffeine. Caffeine actually promotes digestion, so it might mitigate any effect from the acid. Most of us are familiar with the quick feeling of being full from caffeine, only for a vicious rebound. Caffeine foods make ulcers and such problems worse for this reason; while foods containing caffeine are often acidic (thus promoting of digestive balance), the caffeine itself stimulates gastrin and increases gastric motility, as well as insulin release...

A decaffienated soda, though, should work just the same.
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Old 11-07-2007, 04:01 PM   #38
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Does it matter when you have the acid type food? Many Europeans, the French anyway, like to finish their meal with a salad. They pretty much eat whatever they want, in smaller amounts than Americans. Could it be they eat more salads, or they eat them at the end of the meal? Then I was thinking maybe they eat more vinaigrette type salads. The Ranch style salad dressings are popular here, and they have less vinegar. Anyway, do you think it matters when you eat the acid type food?
It really doesn't matter when. For me I find it helps best to have the acid afterward. I like to have a few snacks of pickles or a small salad or a bit of meat with sugar free ketchup etc.
It's probably more related to the psychological tartness of a vinegar that just cleanses the palette and signifies the end of a meal that it is preferred at the end. On the other hand, acids taken in the begining tend to be very strong and harsh and prevent me from enjoying the meal.

But, in so far as objective symptoms of digestive imbalance, acid taken before during or after the meal works just as well.

A ranch type dressing does have vinegar, but a vinegarette is better - the research demonstrates it is a linear dose dependent relationship (the more acids, the more vinegar, the greater the balance e.g. less blood sugar / insulin spike and other symptoms of digestive upsets )
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Old 11-08-2007, 06:03 AM   #39
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This is amazing, now I understand why South Beach didn't work for me. I make most of my salad dressings at home and looking back the ones made with oil, vinegar, and herbs are associated with the most satisfying meals.

I'll also have to look for the SF pickles.

Thanks, ItsTheWoo, you are a treasure to this board.
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Old 11-08-2007, 08:31 AM   #40
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how much vinegar should we have before a meal
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Old 11-08-2007, 10:36 AM   #41
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Phosphoric acid and live ACV are not the same. You have live enzymes with ACV. With phosphoric acid, you get bone loss. It leaches calcium.

So the diet soda question??? That's a big no girlfriend.....aint nothin good ever come from a diet pop!
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Old 11-08-2007, 11:01 AM   #42
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This is so puzzling??? ANY type of foods with vinegar actually make my stomach BURN. I cannot tolerate dressings made with vinegar at all. If I eat pickles, I have to make sure I don't eat them on an empty stomach.

I have no gallbladder either, so I have to limit how much fat I eat at a time.

Guess I'm just outta luck!!
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Old 11-08-2007, 11:12 AM   #43
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Dharma, what about lemon or lime juice in water? Does it burn?

Also, no one's yet mentioned yogurt, kefir, and other traditional foods like kim chee or sauerkraut. Wooo, do you think these would suffice as well?

If so, that puts another piece of the puzzle in place in terms of "traditional foods".
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Old 11-08-2007, 11:17 AM   #44
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Phosphoric acid and live ACV are not the same. You have live enzymes with ACV. With phosphoric acid, you get bone loss. It leaches calcium.

So the diet soda question??? That's a big no girlfriend.....aint nothin good ever come from a diet pop!
............aw!
*kicks the dirt and walks away....

well, i knopw I am going to have a splash of ACV tonight and do an experiment
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Old 11-08-2007, 12:12 PM   #45
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Dharma, what about lemon or lime juice in water? Does it burn?

Also, no one's yet mentioned yogurt, kefir, and other traditional foods like kim chee or sauerkraut. Wooo, do you think these would suffice as well?

If so, that puts another piece of the puzzle in place in terms of "traditional foods".
Lemon or lime juice are bad too. I don't tolerate any citrus fruits. Yogurt if fine, as long as it's full fat.
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Old 11-08-2007, 12:59 PM   #46
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Phosphoric acid and live ACV are not the same. You have live enzymes with ACV. With phosphoric acid, you get bone loss. It leaches calcium.

So the diet soda question??? That's a big no girlfriend.....aint nothin good ever come from a diet pop!
Just a quick correction... phosphoric acid only should contribute to bone loss in those who have some sort of underlying disease where they cannot regulate electrolytes or properly excrete wastes.

For example, if one has kidney disease, they cannot excrete phosphorus (or anything) effectively. When phosphorus levels rise, calcium levels rise. In renal failure with pathologically high phosphorus levels, you'll see a higher Ca and a higher PTH (parathyroid hormone, which breaks down bone to increase calcium). Combined with diminished ability to absorb Ca, this causes osteodysgenesis, a complication of chronic renal failure.

The healthy body keeps its electrolytes in a narrow range at all times; consuming foods high in phosphorus (like meat, or phosphoric acids in diet soda) is not going to promote bone demineralization because eating phosphorus is not going to increase the phosphorus level above normal.

Either way I agree diet soda is probably not a good choice for acidifying food so as to promote digestive hormone balance. Diet soda may be acidic, but it also contains :
1) caffeine
2) carbonation,
3) a great deal of fluid

And all three of these are shown to promote rapid digestion, increased secretion of digestive juices and stomach distention, thus the imbalances which promote obesity.

Last edited by ItsTheWooo; 11-08-2007 at 01:01 PM..
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:04 PM   #47
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This is so puzzling??? ANY type of foods with vinegar actually make my stomach BURN. I cannot tolerate dressings made with vinegar at all. If I eat pickles, I have to make sure I don't eat them on an empty stomach.

I have no gallbladder either, so I have to limit how much fat I eat at a time.

Guess I'm just outta luck!!
I do get a burning feeling from acid foods, but it shouldn't cause any problems if a person is healthy (i.e. without gastric ulcers or susceptability to them).

And, the burning from acid food is short lived, unlike the burning of indigestion from hypersecretion of a high protein, high bulk meal which seems to last a little bit longer.
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:06 PM   #48
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Dharma, what about lemon or lime juice in water? Does it burn?

Also, no one's yet mentioned yogurt, kefir, and other traditional foods like kim chee or sauerkraut. Wooo, do you think these would suffice as well?

If so, that puts another piece of the puzzle in place in terms of "traditional foods".
Definitely, those foods are wonderful. A double benefit of foods which are acidic via fermention: lower carb count (the acids are the byproducs of bacteria, which are eating the sugars for us and spitting out acid producs as waste ... thanks germies!)
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Old 11-08-2007, 08:56 PM   #49
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such an interesting thread thanks for posting it. About lemon water I would think the water might dilute the acid too much ??
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Old 11-10-2007, 06:52 AM   #50
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one thing about eating pickles is they are very salty.
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Old 11-10-2007, 04:26 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo View Post
Either way I agree diet soda is probably not a good choice for acidifying food so as to promote digestive hormone balance. Diet soda may be acidic, but it also contains :
1) caffeine
2) carbonation,
3) a great deal of fluid

And all three of these are shown to promote rapid digestion, increased secretion of digestive juices and stomach distention, thus the imbalances which promote obesity.
So plain carbonated water is frowned upon? I use distilled water and my carbonating machine quite frequently. Shall I just stick to plain water?
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Old 11-10-2007, 05:55 PM   #52
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This is all very interesting, so I'm going to have to try to keep track of how I react to acids added to my meal when I can't avoid truly low fat eating.

But honestly, when I make say for instance chicken bbq (skinless chicken breast, no sugars, just a very small amount of tomato paste, some ACV, and spices) and eat it with coleslaw (mayo and rice vinegar) I end up hungry again in no time.

I thought it was probably just the fact that it's soo low fat (chicken breast has about 1 g per 4 oz serving, and the mayo in a serving of the coleslaw wouldn't amount to much compared to what I normally eat) - and it may very well be just the combination of not quite enough fat and the cabbage in the coleslaw. Then again, perhaps I'm just not getting enough acid with it, despite the ACV in the bbq and the rice vinegar in the coleslaw.

Dharma - I don't have my gall bladder either, but I eat as much fat as I want with no problems. (It's been quite a while since I had the gall bladder surgery though, so it's possible that I've adjusted to a higher fat diet over the years.) I used to think heartburn had to do with too much dietary fat or eating something too spicy, but once I started eating much higher fat, the heartburn stopped. It's only when I don't eat enough fat that the heartburn comes back, so my remedy for a bout of heartburn is to eat some fat - cream or cheese are my first choices. I guess I could just eat butter, but I prefer straight butter in such small amounts (a tiny curl) that it doesn't quiet the heartburn, and when I just want to get rid of the heartburn, I don't want to spend time cooking some eggs or veggies to serve it on.
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Old 11-12-2007, 11:58 AM   #53
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Dharma - I don't have my gall bladder either, but I eat as much fat as I want with no problems. (It's been quite a while since I had the gall bladder surgery though, so it's possible that I've adjusted to a higher fat diet over the years.) I used to think heartburn had to do with too much dietary fat or eating something too spicy, but once I started eating much higher fat, the heartburn stopped. It's only when I don't eat enough fat that the heartburn comes back, so my remedy for a bout of heartburn is to eat some fat - cream or cheese are my first choices. I guess I could just eat butter, but I prefer straight butter in such small amounts (a tiny curl) that it doesn't quiet the heartburn, and when I just want to get rid of the heartburn, I don't want to spend time cooking some eggs or veggies to serve it on.
This is pretty interesting!! I RARELY notice oil in my stools (sorry TMI) which is the only real indication that some dietary fat isn't being digested, so probably my digestive issues are NOT related to my lack of a gallbladder. I do know the liver responds to fat intake very well by increasing bile as long as it's not diseased. I don't have heartburn much except when I have vinegar or citrus on an empty stomach, or when I drink too much wine. So I think the eating fat for heartburn probably has some validity, at least for some of us.
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Old 11-12-2007, 12:16 PM   #54
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ItsTheWooo, thanks for this thread, it's extremely interesting...I have voice problems which my doc thinks is related to reflux; over time I've become dubious of that idea, but remain open to the possibility, so I want to consider this info in that light, and also with regard to binging.
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Old 11-12-2007, 03:34 PM   #55
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Thank you

Thank you! I too experience the "crazy hunger" after eating just lowfat meat w/veggies at night, b/c that's been my usual dinner of late. Reading this was a big DUH moment for me, like you said. Very intelligent post. Thanks.

Last edited by sfmama123; 11-12-2007 at 03:35 PM.. Reason: Typo
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Old 11-12-2007, 05:31 PM   #56
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Woo,
do you have any data that supports your theory on phosphoric acid?
There's always a chance to learn new information!
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Old 11-12-2007, 05:32 PM   #57
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BTW all, from what I understand, the fermentd foods are consider pre-biotics. Digestion is the most important function of the body and is a huge subject!! I'm learning so much right now!
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Old 11-12-2007, 08:43 PM   #58
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Woo,
do you have any data that supports your theory on phosphoric acid?
There's always a chance to learn new information!
Phosphoric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Phosphoric acid, used in many soft drinks (primarily cola), has been linked to lower bone density in epidemiological studies. For example a study[2] using dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry rather than a questionnaire about breakage, provides reasonable evidence to support the theory that drinking cola results in lower bone density. This study was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. A total of 1672 women and 1148 men were studied between 1996 and 2001. Dietary information was collected using a food frequency questionnaire that had specific questions about the number of servings of cola and other carbonated beverages and that also made a differentiation between regular, caffeine-free, and diet drinks. The paper finds statistically significant evidence to show that women who consume cola daily have lower bone density. Total phosphorus intake was not significantly higher in daily cola consumers than in nonconsumers; however, the calcium-to-phosphorus ratios were lower. The study also suggests that further research is needed to confirm the findings.
The bit at the end is significant; even though it is shown an association between phosphoric acid and lower bone density, the poor nutrition in cola drinkers is probably the reason. Non-cola drinkers have a higher phosphorus:calcium ratio in their diets. Cola drinkers consume less calcium (but equal phosphorus, from the colas). Because phosphorus binds calcium and magnesium (see top) this phosphorous-without-calcium way of eating encourages increased bone break down , and less bone building, which results in lower bone density.

But, phosphoric acid itself shouldn't promote bone breakdown in a healthy person, eating an overall healthy diet with plenty of calcium. Unsurprisingly, heavy cola drinkers have poor nutrition

By the same logic, a low carb diet promotes bone breakdown, because we consume a TON of phosphorus from meat producs but less milk and cheese. However, there really isn't evidence for this, because even though our phosphorus intakes are higher, we do typically consume adequate calcium too (so the effects of a high phosphorus intake are less problematic as we have abundant nutrients, and supplement too). Plus, protein itself will promote bone growth.

So you have to look at the whole diet. Phosphorus in soda is no worse than phosphorus in meat... and if the diet is balanced, it isn't a problem .

Last edited by ItsTheWooo; 11-12-2007 at 08:47 PM..
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Old 11-13-2007, 08:18 AM   #59
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But, phosphoric acid itself shouldn't promote bone breakdown in a healthy person, eating an overall healthy diet with plenty of calcium. Unsurprisingly, heavy cola drinkers have poor nutrition
Unsurprisingly, heavy cola drinkers in this study had poor nutrition.

I'm on the verge of 59 and a heavy diet cola drinker for 40 years. I've always had a good diet -- my mother's family believed in meat three times a day. My recent bone scan showed normal density. I still have my full height of 5'4-1/2" and 127 lbs or so of lean weight (and the 6-3/4" wrist circumference to go with it).

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So you have to look at the whole diet. Phosphorus in soda is no worse than phosphorus in meat... and if the diet is balanced, it isn't a problem .
This is the more accurate summary.
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:08 PM   #60
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Zeila, I like cola too, so I am by no means saying drinking cola every day MAKES a diet unhealthy (or, means that such a person DOES eat unhealthfully). I'm just saying that drinking soda every day tends to correlate (*correlate*) with not eating a balanced diet. If you took 100 people, odds are the ones who drank cola every day would be more likely to have the worst diets (alcoholics and drug addicts excluded ). This is because cola has a reputation for being unhealthy so people who are mindful of nutrition tend to avoid cola (but, even though cola is ASSOCIATED with an unhealthy diet, doesn't mean a diet is unhealthy if it includes cola!)

Kinda like, you would also probably find those who ate a lot of meat and fat tended to have poor nutrition and health problems. It isn't because meat and fat are so bad for you, it's because people THINK it is, so those who eat these foods a lot tend to just eat all kinds of bad for you crap and the overall diet is unbalanced... whereas people with low moderate intakes of meat and fat are more likely to be healthful, because the conventional wisdom is that a low moderate intake of meat and fat is good for you. It's not avoiding high meat and high fat that is showing this trend, it is those who are interested in healthy eating, are more likely to do everything that is "nutritionally correct".

The sum of the habits make a healthy diet and some habits are more important than others (and really the #1 important healthy eating habit is avoiding a lot of sugar and a lot of starch, and you'll observe this is the ONE habit all healthy people have in common whether they do low fat, high fat, low cal, or ad lib eating... all are restricting their carbohydrate consciously or indirectly).

Phosphoric acid, sounds scary but really all it is is... phosphorus, that's the only thing that can affect bone density (not the acid, the phosphorus). And, phosphorus is a natural mineral, like calcium and magnesium, it's only a problem if there is an overall nutritional poverty for proteins and calcium and magnesium. This is the same logic that a low carb diet is said to rot your bones (well this is the ORIGINAL source of the myth). Meat = tons of phosphorus, and foods relatively high in carbs tend to have calcium (milk, dairy). Physiology is much more complex than this, many factors figure in to bone density and calcium wasting, and what the evidence actually shows is high protein intakes increase bone density in those without any kidney disease (kidney disease is a special exception, obviously). A high fat intake, associated with any carb reduction (you *have* to eat more fat if you eat less carbs assuming calories are equal)... will promote calcium absorption and vitamin D absorption too, which may be another reason low carb diets actually promote strong bones even though the nutrition know it alls think otherwise.

IT's another nutritional myth, like so many others...

The only truth to soda being bad for you is regarding it's sugar (of course!), caffeine, and the acid's effect on teeth (acids can and will stain and weaken tooth enamel). But, the acids in soda are really no worse than the acids in lemon juice or ... vinegar for that matter . The sharp tingling feeling is mostly carbonation, not acid, anyway. The carbonation makes it seem like soda is OMG SO CAUSTIC but it's just air bubbles .
As for caffeine... well, we all know it's bad. It's a drug. I try to stay away but it's hard .

Last edited by ItsTheWooo; 11-13-2007 at 02:10 PM..
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