Gary Taubes and "Fiber"

[Tooter]

After reading the Chapter on Fiber in his book "Good Calories, bad Calories", I am so dang ANGRY!!!!!!!!!!

Let, me just say...I was having problems with going "High Fiber", I believed everything "They" told me. I kept trying to re-adjust. I believed the bit about "your body has to adjust to it" and that it was SOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo healthy for me. I even tried eating most of it at night so I wouldn't have the "problems" with it during the day. As someone who has suffered from IBS, I thought I was doing something that was preventative and wise. I believed in low carb, but also thought I had to work it out and mix it up with High fiber. After all, we can deduct Fiber, right?

When I started reading the chapter I got ANGRY when I saw the studies, what they actually said...How the medical,nutritional and Diet people sold me a bill of goods that I totally "Bought", even though my own body was trying to tell me something totally different.

After reading that chapter, I did a little more "searching" on the net. Read a little about the book "Fiber Menace" and kinda went "Aha"!!!

Fiber is nothing more then a laxative. How was it going to help me? Wouldn't it cause the same problems of a laxative if used all the time?

I think most of us know that You have to be careful with Fiber when taking certain meds. The fiber will make them totally less effected. You won't/can't absorb them in your body. Well...DUH...What about vitamins? Minerals? It's the same thing.

Were my "problems" on lowcarb because in the past I had eaten too much cheese and tried to limit fat? It could be. I didn't have the problems all the time. I just bought into the "fiber" thing, to make sure I would prevent it. The Author of "Fiber Menace" seems to think that with the proper amount of fat in your low carb diet, you wouldn't have any problems going. We know from the Studies in "Good Calories, bad calories" that this is true of cultures who ate lower in carbs with disease and constipation.

Here I kept trying to make the fiber work, because I believed what I was told. Sort of like trying to keep putting a Square peg in a round hole, despite the fact that my body was trying to tell me different.

Fiber was nothing more then a laxative with all the laxative side effects. I wasn't making my colon any better...In fact, I was making it worse.

This totally shocked me.

I am now doing a little experiment on my own. I'm back down to strict low carb. Limit on cheese and making sure I'm getting plenty of fat. The only exception I am making is with yogurt. Why? I think my colon has totally been striped of the Good bacteria with all the Fiber I had been eating and I need to make sure I am getting plenty of "Good Bacteria" in there.

We shall see. I need to find this out on my own and that's just what I am going to do.

[JeriRat]

I have IBS, too and discovered on my own that fiber is not the answer for me. Plugs me up no matter how much water I drink. Then when my IBS cycles to the other extreme, well let's say that the results aren't pretty.

Still haven't found the solution for me but at least I know that fiber is not the answer.

[JONAH'S GRANNY]

Interesting. I increased my fiber considerably in the last few months and got the best news from my doctor the other day about how all my vital signs, weight, etc. was so good. Maybe it wasn't the fiber, just the fact I was eating better (literally staying away from the junk food).

[Tooter]

Originally Posted by JeriRat

I have IBS, too and discovered on my own that fiber is not the answer for me. Plugs me up no matter how much water I drink. Then when my IBS cycles to the other extreme, well let's say that the results aren't pretty.

Still haven't found the solution for me but at least I know that fiber is not the answer.

The water is another thing I am re-thinking and going to have to start back from "Scratch" on.

I would drink alot of diet pepsi which would dehyrate me...Then drink alot of water to counter act that...Along with eating the high fiber. Just how much minerals and vitamins would I have left in my body to absorb? *hitting myself in the head*

I gave up diet pepsi. I feel so much better and I no longer am dehydrated and thirsty all the time. I also don't go to the bathroom all the time either.

I'm going to drink water, but only on "Demand". Meaning when I am thirsty and want to drink something. No more PUSHING water.

[Tooter]

Originally Posted by JONAH'S GRANNY

Interesting. I increased my fiber considerably in the last few months and got the best news from my doctor the other day about how all my vital signs, weight, etc. was so good. Maybe it wasn't the fiber, just the fact I was eating better (literally staying away from the junk food).

You see, that's what I want to find out too. That's why I am starting from scratch.

There are so many factors, I don't want to just assume anything. I need to find this out on my own.

[JONAH'S GRANNY]

Tooter, does Gary Taubes go into depth in the book about water consumption?

[Tooter]

Originally Posted by JONAH'S GRANNY

Tooter, does Gary Taubes go into depth in the book about water consumption?

Gosh, to be honest... I would have to re-read the chapter. When I finished that chapter I went and read up on a bunch of other stuff on fiber right away...So I don't want to confuse what is in there and what I read elsewhere.

[CarolynF]

Hi Miss Tooter: Dr. Barry Groves also thinks fiber is a bunch of bunk, too! When I first read his book, I was going "huh"? I haven't gotten to the fiber chapter on Gary's book, but thanks for pointing it out..

[Sassay]

I heard once you realize you are thirsty you are already somewhat dehydrated. Don't know if it's true or not. I drink water but just don't think a lot about like I use to.

[Lisa46]

Tooter, thanks for the heads up on this...I cannot wait until I get my GCBC book from Amazon to read more. Now what do I do? Continue to take my Psyllium husks in the morning or not? ARrrrggghhh...

[JuliaL]

I can't wait to get his book. I ordered it on Amazon the other day.

Tooter - is the fiber issue only a concern as it relates to people with IBS? So if I don't already have problems in that area, is extra fiber going to cause problems? Or is it that when people eat high fiber but low fat there are problems? I guess I need to read the book, but you've really peaked my interest

[ELPM]

What about studies like this???

Dietary fiber intake and risk factors for cardiovascular disease in French adults.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2005; 82(6):1185-94 (ISSN: 0002-9165)

Lairon D; Arnault N; Bertrais S; Planells R; Clero E; Hercberg S; Boutron-Ruault MC
INSERM, U476, and INRA 1260, Université de la Méditerranée, Marseille, France. denis.lairon@medecine.univ-mrs.fr

BACKGROUND: Increased consumption of dietary fiber is widely recommended to maintain or improve health, but knowledge of the relation between dietary fiber sources and cardiovascular disease risk factors is limited. OBJECTIVE: We examined the relation between the source or type of dietary fiber intake and cardiovascular disease risk factors in a cohort of adult men and women. DESIGN: In a cross-sectional study, quintiles of fiber intake were determined from dietary records, separately for 2532 men and 3429 women. Age- and multivariate-controlled logistic models investigated the odds ratios of abnormal markers for quintiles 2-5 of fiber intake compared with the lowest quintile. RESULTS: The highest total dietary fiber and nonsoluble dietary fiber intakes were associated with a significantly (P < 0.05) lower risk of overweight and elevated waist-to-hip ratio, blood pressure, plasma apolipoprotein (apo) B, apo B:apo A-I, cholesterol, triacylglycerols, and homocysteine. Soluble dietary fiber was less effective. Fiber from cereals was associated with a lower body mass index, blood pressure, and homocysteine concentration; fiber from vegetables with a lower blood pressure and homocysteine concentration; and fiber from fruit with a lower waist-to-hip ratio and blood pressure. Fiber from dried fruit or nuts and seeds was associated with a lower body mass index, waist-to-hip ratio, and fasting apo B and glucose concentrations. Fiber from pulses had no specific effect. CONCLUSION: Dietary fiber intake is inversely correlated with several cardiovascular disease risk factors in both sexes, which supports its protective role against cardiovascular disease and recommendations for its increased consumption.


Dietary fiber intake and risk factors for cardiovascular disease in French adults.

[ELPM]

Or this?

Effect of soluble fiber intake in lipid and glucose levels in healthy subjects: a randomized clinical trial.

Diabetes Res Clin Pract. 2004; 65(1):7-11 (ISSN: 0168-8227)

Aller R; de Luis DA; Izaola O; La Calle F; del Olmo L; Fernandez L; Arranz T; Hernandez JM
Institute of Endocrinology and Nutrition, Medicine School and Hospital Rio Hortega, University of Valladolid, C/Los Perales 16 (URB Las Aceñas), Simancas, 47130 Valladolid, Spain.

OBJECTIVE: The aim of our work was to carry out a randomized clinical trial with two diets, one enriched in fiber (total fiber 30 g and soluble fiber 4 g) to investigate the effect on lipid and glucose levels in healthy subjects. RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS: Fifty-three subjects were prospectively randomized to two groups (see Table 1). Group I received a diet with 10.4 g of fiber given as 1.97 g soluble fiber (pectins, gums and mucilages) and 8.13 g of insoluble fiber (hemicelullose, cellulose and lignins) and Group II received a diet with 30.5 g of fiber of which 4.11 g were soluble fiber and 25.08 g insoluble fiber. Prospective serial assessment of weight and nutritional intake (3 days written food records) were made. These determinations were performed at baseline and at 3 months. All enrolled subjects underwent the following examinations; fasting blood samples were drawn for measurement of total cholesterol, triglyceride concentrations and other lipid fractions, low density lipoprotein (LDL-cholesterol), high density lipoprotein (HDL-cholesterol), glucose, and insulin. RESULTS: Total calorie and fat consumption were lower than recommended in both groups (calories; group I 1633+/-417 kcal per day versus group II 1707.5 +/- 579 kcal per day:ns) and (fats; group I 73.4 +/- 22.7 g per day versus group II [72.6 +/- 28 g per day:ns), without differences in fatty acid intake profile. Total fiber intake did not reach that recommended in both diets but it was higher in group II ( 9.06 +/- 2.7 g per day versus 25.95 +/- 7.12 g per day: P < 0.05). Soluble fiber intake did not reach that recommended in both diets but it was higher in group II (1.7 +/- 0.58 g per day versus 3.5 +/- 0.96 g per day: P < 0.05). Body weight did not change in both groups during treatment. During treatment, in group II a significant change was detected from baseline in LDL-cholesterol and fasting glucose levels. LDL-cholesterol decreased by 12.8% (P < 0.05) and glucose decreased by 12.3% (P < 0.05). No statistical differences were detected among triglycerides, HDL-cholesterol, and insulin levels. CONCLUSIONS: Modest increases in soluble fiber intake in healthy subjects improved LDL cholesterol and glucose levels.

Effect of soluble fiber intake in lipid and glucose levels in healthy subjects: a randomized clinical trial.


Dietary fiber and risk of colorectal cancer in the Japan collaborative cohort study.

Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2007; 16(4):668-75 (ISSN: 1055-9965)

Wakai K; Date C; Fukui M; Tamakoshi K; Watanabe Y; Hayakawa N; Kojima M; Kawado M; Suzuki K; Hashimoto S; Tokudome S; Ozasa K; Suzuki S; Toyoshima H; Ito Y; Tamakoshi A;
Division of Epidemiology and Prevention, Aichi Cancer Center Research Institute, 1-1 Kanokoden, Chikusa-ku, Nagoya 464-8681, Japan. wakai@aichi-cc.jp

To examine the association of dietary fiber with the risk of colorectal cancer in a population with a high incidence of cancer and a low fiber intake, we analyzed the data from the Japan Collaborative Cohort Study. From 1988 to 1990, 43,115 men and women aged 40 to 79 years completed a questionnaire on dietary and other factors. Intake of dietary fiber was estimated using a food frequency questionnaire. Rate ratios (RR) were computed by fitting proportional hazards models. During the mean follow-up of 7.6 years, 443 colorectal cancer cases were recorded. In all participants, we found a decreasing trend in risk of colorectal cancer with increasing intake of total dietary fiber; the multivariate-adjusted RRs across quartiles were 1.00, 0.96 [95% confidence interval (95% CI), 0.72-1.27], 0.72 (0.53-0.99), and 0.73 (0.51-1.03; P(trend) = 0.028). This trend was exclusively detected for colon cancer: the corresponding RRs were 1.00, 0.90 (95% CI, 0.64-1.26), 0.56 (0.38-0.83), and 0.58 (0.38-0.88; P(trend) = 0.002). The decrease in RRs with increasing intake of dietary fiber was larger in men than in women. No material differences appeared in the strength of associations with the risk between water-soluble and insoluble dietary fiber. For food sources of fiber, bean fiber intake was somewhat inversely correlated with colorectal cancer risk. This prospective study supported potential protective effects of dietary fiber against colorectal cancer, mainly against colon cancer. The role of dietary fiber in the prevention of colorectal cancer seems to remain inconsistent, and further investigations in various populations are warranted.
Dietary fiber and risk of colorectal cancer in the Japan collaborative cohort study.

[aim in Fla*working]

....I am scared. It is so much easier to believe in fiber. I take Inulin and it does not stimulate me to go.
how is it a laxitive? I am interested i n the book too but I do not have time to read at the moment can someone fill me in?

[Ragdoll24]

Per Dr. Michael Eades: "we have a situation where a product (fiber) causes damage to the cells lining a tube, causing them to produce a lot of mucus in an attempt to protect themselves. In the process many of these cells die and are replaced by new cells. And this is perceived as a good thing.

My question is: is it really a good thing?"

[Chasintrail]

WLPM - what are the actual numbers? What was the complete diet composition? How many of the subjects were obese, how many exercised, how many smoked? How many had a family history of cancers? How many were taking regular medications?

The problem with using only abstracts is that they don't provide all the details needed to truly evaluate the study. If you read the abstracts and reports from Framingham, you'd be under the impression that that study definitively proved the lipid hypothesis... it did the opposite.

The other problem with ANY study based on diet is that it's impossible to do a true double-blind trial, very difficult to even perform a single-blind. Also, most of these studies are based on dietary recall where people are asked to record exactly what they ate for a period of time. Often this recording is done after that time has passed. It's a known fact that the dietary recall form of information gathering is flawed and not highly reliable. Unfortunately, without cloning test subjects (to ensure identical genetics), keeping them in a lab their entire lives (to ensure identical environment), and feeding them people chow (to ensure identical macronutrient intake) diet based studies using general populations are never going to be able to provide exact, definitive answers.

Taubes looked at more than just the published abstracts and reports while researching his book. I have no opinion one way or the other on the fiber issue. Haven't studied it. But his research into fats and exercise correlates with everything that I have studied. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on fiber.

[/soapbox] Damn I have to get out of the pharma industry, it's making me

[beautifulme]

Originally Posted by ELPM

What about studies like this???

Dietary fiber intake and risk factors for cardiovascular disease in French adults.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2005; 82(6):1185-94 (ISSN: 0002-9165)

Lairon D; Arnault N; Bertrais S; Planells R; Clero E; Hercberg S; Boutron-Ruault MC
INSERM, U476, and INRA 1260, Université de la Méditerranée, Marseille, France. denis.lairon@medecine.univ-mrs.fr

BACKGROUND: Increased consumption of dietary fiber is widely recommended to maintain or improve health, but knowledge of the relation between dietary fiber sources and cardiovascular disease risk factors is limited. OBJECTIVE: We examined the relation between the source or type of dietary fiber intake and cardiovascular disease risk factors in a cohort of adult men and women. DESIGN: In a cross-sectional study, quintiles of fiber intake were determined from dietary records, separately for 2532 men and 3429 women. Age- and multivariate-controlled logistic models investigated the odds ratios of abnormal markers for quintiles 2-5 of fiber intake compared with the lowest quintile. RESULTS: The highest total dietary fiber and nonsoluble dietary fiber intakes were associated with a significantly (P < 0.05) lower risk of overweight and elevated waist-to-hip ratio, blood pressure, plasma apolipoprotein (apo) B, apo B:apo A-I, cholesterol, triacylglycerols, and homocysteine. Soluble dietary fiber was less effective. Fiber from cereals was associated with a lower body mass index, blood pressure, and homocysteine concentration; fiber from vegetables with a lower blood pressure and homocysteine concentration; and fiber from fruit with a lower waist-to-hip ratio and blood pressure. Fiber from dried fruit or nuts and seeds was associated with a lower body mass index, waist-to-hip ratio, and fasting apo B and glucose concentrations. Fiber from pulses had no specific effect. CONCLUSION: Dietary fiber intake is inversely correlated with several cardiovascular disease risk factors in both sexes, which supports its protective role against cardiovascular disease and recommendations for its increased consumption.


Dietary fiber intake and risk factors for cardiovascular disease in French adults.

Well.The thing is most scientific studies are biased.MOst of the time whatever "they" are looking for is exactly what they will find.If a company is out to prove that Fibre is good for you,they will bring up studies showing it's good.If they want to prove that fiber is useless they will bring up that study.
OF course some studies are double-blind so that makes them more valid.
As a Nurse(1st time in college) and biology/Chemistry major(med),I have seen it all.
I have one professor that makes us try to convince the class that certain things that have been "proven" to be either good,or bad for us as false.Last Semester I "proved" that cigarretes were healthy.Of course I know that they are not but,I found the 5 required "scientific" studies to prove that they were good 4 you.Of course these studies were funded by "Big Tobacco"
Long story short......Tooter find what works for you(like you did) because just like platform shoes,leotard's and Blue eyeliner,"information"goes in and out of syle.FACTS are just things waiting to be disproven..IMO.
I will still LOVE me fiber.

[ELPM]

In the first study there were 2532 men and 3429 women. In the second it was 53 randomized participants. And in the third it was more then 43,000. These are randomized. So that over 43,000 the amount on average exercised probably equaled out among the participants. I find it odd to look for fault and try to disprove it, myself.

I fail to see how people can be biased as to whether an individual got colon cancer or not?

I read a great article about the number of studies that are thrown away due to the results are not what was anticipated. There is a faction of scientists that think that these should be printed so that we can use that data.

So I don't believe most studies are biased. I just see these medical studies as facts. There were many more that I didn't put up here.

(And none were related to obese individuals, though I am sure many are out there.)

I am simply putting up the abstract because it would be too involved to put up the whole thing, but that doesn't mean I haven't read the entirety of it and not solely the abstract. (I actually find that an insulting insinuation).


Furthermore, there is such pervasive incidence of cancer in society. There is also the trend for people to eat low fiber. It may not be connected and it may be, but 43,000 having a general tend tells me something about what I want to do with my life.

Also, just from rational thought I realize one finds fiber in whole grains and vegetables, as such I would tend to believe it to be not a menace, but part of a nutritive diet.

I also find it hard to believe that my mother, who was an RN under T. Berry Brazelton, my two aunts who are nurses, my uncle who went to Yale for residency in becoming a pediatrician are solely in it for the money or so easily malleable by the industries that are (often rightly so) demonized.

Also, wanted to say that I DO want to read this book and am excited buy it, but am skeptical in changing my eating so drastically based on what I know now.

[Chasintrail]

ELPM - I'm sorry if you took my comments as insulting. I have no interest in either proving or disproving the studies you quoted. My intention was to point out that most studies can be interpreted in many ways and that all variables can't be controlled for.

[ELPM]

Oh no problem! Everything we learn in the "information age" is so conflicting, it's hard to know where to stand, so I totally see why this book and thoughts on fiber are necessary.

[cabrioluvr]

I have IBS too - and fiber does NOT help the problem at all. Nuts in small quantities on the other hand, combined with water, seem to help some.

[AnitaLCing]

I have not read the Fiber Chapter yet. But now that you mention it, I have had a hard time with flax in the past. So I stopped eating the daily muffins. I kind of though I was allergic to flax or something. Maybe it was just my body saying "enough with the fiber".

I agree, we need to listen to our bodies and not all of the "experts" out there.

[Randy]

Whether it's fat, fiber, or fishfeathers, both sides of the argument seem to attack what the other calls proof.

I've read a lot about this and I'm starting to think a majority of our health problems are fueled by excess calories. Cancers and other diseases may be put in place for other reasons (heredity, environment, etc.) but they become monsters on sugar and starches and maybe other things we eat.

The only way I've found to control my hunger, and thus control my calories, is controlling my carb intake.

I personally do think that fiber is overrated. I hope we learn more on this. Dr. Eades' original Protein Power had an entire chapter on their skepticism on fiber, and the editor was successful in getting them to leave it out of the book.

[JoSkids]

I have never had to use extra fiber with this WOE - everything always worked fine - actually better than normal.

Now I add flax for the "filling" benefit of fiber - like Julia mentioned, I would be interested in is whether the extra fiber is going to cause me problems if I dont have other issues (like IBS)

[LouieLouie2007]

I eat very little fiber and have no issues with going or bulk, constipation etc. I actually have more problem when I increase my fiber.


I think what most of this proves is that NO blanket recommendations can be made for ANYONE. You really have to be worked up individually and find out what works for you.

Of course, companies don't like that. they want to be able to snag the largest demographic they can and to hell with whether or not it is really necessary, beneficial or true for that one person. And of course well meaning people get involved too and make the mess even bigger with our healthcare industry being one of the largest and "mostly" unwitting proponents.

[Beth1121]

I just got the book, so I have not read that chatper yet. I must say that I am lacking in the fiber department. I have worried about future problems (colon cancer to name one) since I don't get anywhere near the recommended amount. I don't seem to need it for bathroom issues, so I've put it off "knowing" that I needed to eat more. Maybe this chapter will convince me that I've been okay to skip it.

[Dharma]

Read this!! He's talking about lung mucus but keep reading to the bottom.....very enlightening.

A cautionary tale of mucus fore and aft | Health & Nutrition by Michael R. Eades, M.D.

I've never been able to do fiber.....I mean, who wants to have all that gas and bloating all the time??? It doesn't make sense that it would be good for you but cause all the side effects. Common sense, really.

[AllieCat0817]

And here I am, having an IBS episode, and I ate 1/2 cup of Fiber One this morning (which I hadn't done in MONTHS) with my yogurt thinking it'd help.

Sigh. No it hasn't, not yet. Abdominal pain issues. I want to SCREAM.

Actually IBS expert Heather Van Vorous (if that is how you spell it) says INSOLUBLE fiber is horrible for IBS, but SOLUBLE FIBER is the IBS'ers best friend.

[Tooter]

Originally Posted by JuliaL

I can't wait to get his book. I ordered it on Amazon the other day.

Tooter - is the fiber issue only a concern as it relates to people with IBS? So if I don't already have problems in that area, is extra fiber going to cause problems? Or is it that when people eat high fiber but low fat there are problems? I guess I need to read the book, but you've really peaked my interest

Ok, JuliaL...Here's the Deal. The Fiber does not help in preventing cancer or diseases of the intestine. OR...For the heart. That is all a bunch of bunk.

Now, to answer your question...That's not an easy one. From what I have read so far in the book and the different studies, People did not need ANY fiber and could/would eat mainly meat and fat and be totally healthy with the absence of Modern diseases. They would get all the vitamins and nutrients from the meat that they ate. Now...I know you are saying...huh? But it seems to be true. They would get the amount of vitamin C they needed from the food and it wasn't much. That ALL changes when you factor in More carbs and the refined white ones. Somehow those took AWAY from how we could process the vitamins.

Remember the stories about guys on ships getting scurvy? How lemons cured that? Then you have other people who ate nothing but meat/fat...barely any low carb veggies and had perfect health and NO scurvy!! Why? Well...What did the Sailors eat? What Food, white flour, molasses, gruel....hardly any meat. They were the ones who got scurvy.

Ok, the healthy group?...ate Meat a few low carb roots, berries etc.... They drank the amount of water that they needed.

What's different for us? Well, I did induction....But was I pure? Were most of us? I drank diet pepsi the entire time. It never effected my weight loss. Then I cut back on the fat. The diet pepsi would dehydrate me, I would then need more fluid to RE-hydrate and all those vitamins would go right out. I would sometimes have problems "Going". No wonder.

It's got me re-thinking.

It's fiber bad? No, I don't think it is in small amounts. Would it effect our health? Well, there are no studies on it, but the foods that have it are higher in carbs...Although we "subtract" from them. Who's idea was that? It might not spike the glycemic index (is slower to digest) but will it effect the way things are absorbed in our bodies??? Interesting question, isn't it?

It's caused me to rethink alot of things.

[aim in Fla*working]

interesting and scary..Maybe the bottom line is no one really knows and there are no experts...and that is scarey too.