Gary Taubes and "Fiber"

[moonmirror]

You guys...he doesn't say fiber is harmful!

He just states that there's no concrete scientific proof that it prevents disease.

Its as simple as that.

[ItsTheWooo]

Originally Posted by moonmirror

You guys...he doesn't say fiber is harmful!

He just states that there's no concrete scientific proof that it prevents disease.

Its as simple as that.

This is true, thank you for stating what I took about 3 pages to try say lol.

Yep, fiber doesn't prevent disease, the obsession with fiber is false as is the believe obesity is about choices (to eat more and exercise less) or that exercise will reduce/ control weight.

[JoSkids]

Originally Posted by JONAH'S GRANNY

Agreed but I must say I love my fiber and was told when I had my last colonoscopy; eat more fiber.

I love my fiber as well, but I eat it mainly for the "full" feeling that I get - not for plumbing.

Was there something that was not right that they would suggest you eat more fiber, JG? The point that Taubes is making, as I am understanding it, is that the increased fiber isn't necessarily going to take care of the polyps (or whatever is going on in your intestines) and if there is really nothing going on in your intestines, why is a doctor suggesting you eat more fiber? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[ItsTheWooo]

Originally Posted by yules258

I really believe in fiber! It has done wonders for me. I have been doing the low carb woe for about 7 years. I weigh 103 and I got stuck in a binge / restricted diet cycle for 3 years. I was so restricted sunday-friday then went on an all out binge sat. This started out as a simple cheat day then it became a binge day. Sunday I spent fighting off guilt, self hatred, sugar hangover etc. I was so ill from everything I ate sat. that I could not even think of food until about 4pm. Then right back to my strict woe. Now, I already lost all my weight 7 yrs. ago and have maintained ever since. The problem with the binge was that I spent sunday-friday losing the 5 lbs. I gained from my binge. Water weight or what have you, I felt like total junk until sat. came. Then repeat....

I have tried and battled with my self for 3 yrs. to stop this cycle. I went to therapy, read every overeating book, food addiction etc. All of the sudden I started researching fiber. I began taking glucomannan 1 before every meal along with flax recipes and high fiber grains. The very first week I started this fiber diet I did not binge on sat. night. This was a huge accomplishment. Food is no longer the only thing on my mind. I actually get full and know when to stop. I don't crave all the trigger foods or sugar that I would litterally dream of during the week just waiting for sat.

I have not had a laxative effect from the fiber. I go regularly every morning. I have increased my water but that was easy. Due to the fact that you must have a lot of water when taking the glucomannan, I can get down 2 glasses with each dose. Right there is 6 glasses, I add another 2 glasses around 3:30 when I have a high fiber snack bar and what ever water I drink during the day.

I have more energy, my mood has improved and I can focus on so many different things now that my mind is not centered around food. I am no longer bloated and my weight is now a comfortable 102 ( I am a small boned 5'3). I am not trying to lose weight but I have had no problem holding steady at my current weight. I have been able to add so much variety to my diet due to the lack of restriction from my binging is now gone. I can't say enough great things about fiber.

Everyone is different, this is just my story. In some weird way, fiber saved my life (not to sound so dramatic) but my life was one big cycle that I could not get off of. I feel so much better and very powerful just knowing I concord this with something as simple as FIBER.

Yules, I'm just wondering, do you follow a low carb diet? If you think high fiber helps wait till you try low carb
Also, do you restrict calories? 103 is a bit of a low weight so I am wondering if part of your binging cycles are fueled by food restriction or a low body weight.
It's sad, I wish women would stop trying to eat low cal to lose weight (without specifically tending to macronutrients ). Dieting usually ends up in one of three ways long term:

1) more weight gain (98%)
2) binge eating/bulimia that does not remit over time (most women end up just gaining weight but eventually they plateau at their higher weight, and the binging stops... some women trigger brain chemical imbalances and end up binge eaters or possibly bulimic from the dieting)
3) some shade anorexic (the rarest outcome, but it often is true that the trigger of a diet starts brain chem changes which can lead to anorexia)

The only way to stop gaining weight is to stop dieting.
The only way to lose weight is to eat low carb (even if not officially eating low carb, the only way to correct obesity is to get control of the metabolic mayhem causing it, and MOST of the time this is blood sugar and insulin being out of control)

[moonmirror]

Itsthewooo, I love your posts because I think you make so much sense! I love the science you put behind all your thoughts and I also completely agree with the way you do your WOE...some of us can't do the "perfectly nutritionally clean" model and I like how you said, "Just eat low carb every day, if you eat a frankenfood, oh well."

Really that's the goal for all of us, I think. "Eat low carb every day!"

[sbarr]

Excellent thread - bookmarking so it pops up and I can use as a reminder to buy book when I get back home.

I've enjoyed the ebb and flow of the discussion - overview of the book, different points, different experiences. As with most things, unless it's a true fact, like "you need moisture/water in whatever form to survive" it's a case of YMMV and it pays to get as much information as possible, consider one's own situation, motivations, anecdotal and scientific evidence.

Fascinating how studies often draw positive correlations between two things when it might be the absence of a third factor that is also relevant. Interesting how we like the studies that reinforce what we believe. This book sounds right up that alley, not necessarily taking a position, but poking holes in weak positions out there, often ones that we've accepted as "gospel".

Sounds like fiber is helpful to some, but increased fiber might not be necessary (or even detrimental) to/for others.

Tooter - your original point about being angry that we've been fed a party line - similar to other party lined regarding low calorie, low fat, etc. raised an excellent point.

I do suspect some people have benefited from additional fiber and there are those who suffer.

Woo - I was amused and intrigued by your proposition that this could be related to our cleanliness obsessions here in the West. It sent me off on a bit of a web-search hitting everything from Ghandi to Wikipedia. I think you have something there.

Good thread, everyone!

[fluffybear2]

Well that is why I was so gung ho on low fat and found it nearly impossible to rid myself of that mindset--I listened to all the "theys" out there. There was a time when the word "fiber" was almost unheard of. I believe Dr. Kellogg (brother of the guy who invented Kellogg cereal) was one of the first to promote a high fiber diet. He was also big on colonics using fiber--ouch! Dr. Kellogg was also a vegetarian. His banner has been taken up by people like Dr. John McDougall who promotes an almost zero fat vegan very high starch diet. Dr. McDougall led the charge along with others from the PCRM against Dr. Atkins.

[yules258]

Itsthewooo: I do eat low carb, have been for over 7 years. Problem was I was so strict with my carbs that after about 5 yrs. I started a cheat day once a week due to the lack of carbs and the cravings were so out of control. As time went on, my cheat day turned into a binge day and that began my cycle.

I have always been a thin person. I started low carb to lose the baby weight from my first pregnancy (50lbs). Continued the low carb woe until my next baby. I again gained 50lbs with my second child. Right after my little one was born I went right back to my low carb diet and dropped the weight in about 12 weeks. My youngest is now 5 and the binge cycle started about 3 yrs ago. I was not until about 3 months ago that I added the fiber and grains. In doing so, it turned off a switch for me. The added fiber and grains must be just the amount of extra carbs my body needed to curb the cravings of the bad starchy foods I was dreaming about every night when my head hit the pillow. I finally know what it feels like to be full. It is a wonderful feeling.

I know 103 is a low weight. It is a comfortable weight for me. I don't count cals or fat. I do watch carbs. and I do have a big appetite so I eat big meals. This does not seem to effect my weight. When I was binging on sat. I would be up 5-7 lbs the next day. It would take the whole 6 days to lose that and then I would continue with the binge/restrict. So yes to answer your question when I was on that rollercoaster, I was watching my cals and fat and basically would eat the same thing everyday for 6 days to counter what I had on the sat. binge. NOW, I still have a 'normal' meal on sat. nights. something hi carb and not so good for me. But I don't have all the sugar, candy bars and junk. I stop after the meal. And this does not seem to have an impact on my weight or mood.

I hope this sheds some light on my food drama. I always suggest fiber to my friends because of what it has done for me.

[momov2boys]

Originally Posted by yules258

I really believe in fiber! It has done wonders for me. I have been doing the low carb woe for about 7 years. I weigh 103 and I got stuck in a binge / restricted diet cycle for 3 years. I was so restricted sunday-friday then went on an all out binge sat. This started out as a simple cheat day then it became a binge day. Sunday I spent fighting off guilt, self hatred, sugar hangover etc. I was so ill from everything I ate sat. that I could not even think of food until about 4pm. Then right back to my strict woe.

I have tried and battled with my self for 3 yrs. to stop this cycle. I went to therapy, read every overeating book, food addiction etc. All of the sudden I started researching fiber. I began taking glucomannan 1 before every meal along with flax recipes and high fiber grains. The very first week I started this fiber diet I did not binge on sat. night. This was a huge accomplishment. Food is no longer the only thing on my mind. I actually get full and know when to stop. I don't crave all the trigger foods or sugar that I would litterally dream of during the week just waiting for sat.

I have more energy, my mood has improved and I can focus on so many different things now that my mind is not centered around food. I am no longer bloated and my weight is now a comfortable 102 ( I am a small boned 5'3). I am not trying to lose weight but I have had no problem holding steady at my current weight. I have been able to add so much variety to my diet due to the lack of restriction from my binging is now gone. I can't say enough great things about fiber.

Everyone is different, this is just my story. In some weird way, fiber saved my life (not to sound so dramatic) but my life was one big cycle that I could not get off of. I feel so much better and very powerful just knowing I concord this with something as simple as FIBER.

Originally Posted by yules258

I have always been a thin person. I started low carb to lose the baby weight from my first pregnancy (50lbs). Continued the low carb woe until my next baby. I again gained 50lbs with my second child. Right after my little one was born I went right back to my low carb diet and dropped the weight in about 12 weeks. My youngest is now 5 and the binge cycle started about 3 yrs ago. I was not until about 3 months ago that I added the fiber and grains. In doing so, it turned off a switch for me. The added fiber and grains must be just the amount of extra carbs my body needed to curb the cravings of the bad starchy foods I was dreaming about every night when my head hit the pillow. I finally know what it feels like to be full. It is a wonderful feeling.

I know 103 is a low weight. It is a comfortable weight for me. I don't count cals or fat. I do watch carbs. and I do have a big appetite so I eat big meals. This does not seem to effect my weight.

I always suggest fiber to my friends because of what it has done for me.

yules258, your story reminds me so much of my very own.
(I wanted to PM you, but I believe you must make 25 posts before you get PM privileges).

I, too, have recently discovered that healthy fiber carbs only help me in my woe.
For way too long I feared eating any carb, healthy or not.

Lately, I've been eating more vegetables, flax bread (daily), and having occasional Ezekiel bread and pumpkin or sunflower seeds.

I've actually lost a bit of weight.
[COLOR="Red"]I am finding maintenance more easy than ever before because of the satisfaction that fiber carbs are giving me.[/COLOR]

Anyway, fiber ROCKS (in some moderation, like all things).
It is healthy for us.

Thank you very much for sharing your story.
It touched me and I hope it may help others, too!
KUTGW

[lisabinil]

I have diahrhea predominant IBS (never constipated) and my gastro doc had me taking up to 9 Asacol a day. I had to go on disability for 7 months last year and was afraid to leave the house. Nothing was helping and adding fiber supplements only caused pain. I had a colonoscopy and a pillcam (really neat test) and it was determined my digestive tract was inflamed due to a complication of my Fibromyalgia. I had constant uncontrollable diahrhea and I wasn't losing weight-I was gaining. I finally decided I couldn't live like this anymore and starting researching different WOE's and started lc. This and the addition of flaxmeal in my diet have been a lifesaver for me. Getting rid of sugar, white bread and overprocessed high carb foods has worked for me.

[atcgirl42]

Lisa, I'm the same way. I have IBS, and have had colonoscopies and endoscopies. Inflamed digestive tract, here take these drugs and eat lots of fiber! OMG! I can't take the drugs because of my job and I've discovered that I feel oh so much better with low fiber! I'm glad you found out what works for you!

I just wanted to say that Taubes is not proposing a diet. He is not suggesting people eat one way or the other! What he is doing is pulling up all of the old research studies that were done investigating low fat vs. high fat diets and the effects on the human body. What most people don't know and what Mr. Taubes is doing is showing us all of the studies, not just the ones that confirmed the hypotheses of the researchers! So many studies were dismissed or delayed in being pubished because they didn't jive with what the scientists conducting the experiments wanted! When Taubes asked one investigator why a particular study went unpublished for 16 years, he said, "We were just disappointed in the way it came out," (from pg. 38 of GCBC) That is what is infuriating! The information we're being fed by the so-called experts has been manipulated and we're not being given all of the facts.

[CurveControl]

My meds cause constipation. I use Fiber and coconut oil. It has only been a week or so of fiber(in the form of flax muffin) and a few days of added oils (I already was taking omega 3 and 9) but both, along with lots of water, seem to be helping.

[Ailuros]

I'm responding a bit late to a couple of comments on the previous page about the need to eat raw meat to avoid scurvy if you're not eating any vegetables. That was what I'd always thought, too, but it's not what Taubes says:

To test the argument that the vitamins necessary in such a diet to avoid scurvy and remain healthy could be obtained only by eating raw meat as was incorrectly assumed to be the practice of the Inuit, all of the meat was cooked. (In fact, the Inuit only occasionally ate raw meat.)

From Good Carbs, Bad Carbs, p 324
Talking about the Bellevue Hospital experiment when Stefansson and Anderson ate a meat-only diet for 12 months.

[Stash'sWife]

The thing that gets to me is how "they" started promoting sweeping dietary/lifestyle changes to the public without FIRST examining the long term effects these changes might have.

It is amazing...and, on some level, disgusting.

I am sure many (most?) had only the best of intentions.

Still, it's irritating.

[homestretch]

After 14 months on the South Beach diet which is lowfat and high fiber I was constipated the ENTIRE time. I simply could not go and when I did it was very painful. I was eating enough fiber to choke a horse and remained constipated so I added Citrucel with no change. Since being on Atkins and eating fat the only time I have constipation is when I don't eat enough fat.

[ItsTheWooo]

Constipation can be a variety of sources, and you make an excellent point that insufficient fat can also be a trigger. Constipation is basically nothing more than the muscles of your colon not moving often enough to eliminate waste. This can be caused by a number of things dietary, not just lack of fiber. If you are dehydrated, you'll become constipated. If you don't have enough fiber, you may become constipated. And if you don't eat enough total food calories, obviously, this can result in constipation. This is why many people report constipation when not eating fat: not eating fat correlates with low calorie diets, which cause constipation.

The autonomic nervous system is responsible for peristalsis (the movement of our bowels) ... and peristalsis is suppressed or increased depending on hormones talking with our bodies. Eating food changes chemical messages to increase the blood flow and activity of our GI systems. Therefore, eating stimulates peristalsis. Ever notice after a really big meal sometimes we have to use the restroom? That's why.

To avoid constipation the most important thing is probably to eat enough total calories... and second, to be well hydrated. Fiber is probably of less importance than eating enough, often enough, and being hydrated.

Women who notice reduced constipation when increasing fat are probably noticing reduced constipation from eating a normal amount of food (unless they have some kind of GI disease like gallbladder issues... because fat should NOT be in the stool unless we are really really eating an incredibly large amount at meals )

[catkin]

Originally Posted by moonmirror

You guys...he doesn't say fiber is harmful!

He just states that there's no concrete scientific proof that it prevents disease.

Its as simple as that.

Thank you for not writing a thesis.

[fawn]

because fat should NOT be in the stool unless we are really really eating an incredibly large amount at meals )
__________________

And you'll know because fatty stool is a floaty stool!

[catkin]

Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo

Constipation can be a variety of sources, and you make an excellent point that insufficient fat can also be a trigger. Constipation is basically nothing more than the muscles of your colon not moving often enough to eliminate waste. This can be caused by a number of things dietary, not just lack of fiber. If you are dehydrated, you'll become constipated. If you don't have enough fiber, you may become constipated. And if you don't eat enough total food calories, obviously, this can result in constipation. This is why many people report constipation when not eating fat: not eating fat correlates with low calorie diets, which cause constipation.

The autonomic nervous system is responsible for peristalsis (the movement of our bowels) ... and peristalsis is suppressed or increased depending on hormones talking with our bodies. Eating food changes chemical messages to increase the blood flow and activity of our GI systems. Therefore, eating stimulates peristalsis. Ever notice after a really big meal sometimes we have to use the restroom? That's why.

To avoid constipation the most important thing is probably to eat enough total calories... and second, to be well hydrated. Fiber is probably of less importance than eating enough, often enough, and being hydrated.

Women who notice reduced constipation when increasing fat are probably noticing reduced constipation from eating a normal amount of food (unless they have some kind of GI disease like gallbladder issues... because fat should NOT be in the stool unless we are really really eating an incredibly large amount at meals )

Says who? Has Gary seen the study these conclusions came from?

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo

To avoid constipation the most important thing is probably to eat enough total calories... and second, to be well hydrated. Fiber is probably of less importance than eating enough, often enough, and being hydrated.

I found this to be so true. I tried Atkins before and thought I got constipated because of all the meat. In fact I had read that too much meat was what caused constipation or at least a lack of fiber. Nothing helped, not even psyllium or flax. It was so bad I thought I would have to go into the hospital because of it. I finally had to take harsh OTC chemical laxatives. So I stopped the Atkins diet and tried a number of non-low carb diets and the SAME THING happened each time I started a diet. Well---knock me in the head, it finally dawned on me it wasn't meat that was causing the problems. So when I tried low carbing again, I began to drink a minimum of eight 8 oz. glasses of water per day and voila' it worked and I haven't been constipated since. So at least for me, hydration is the secret formula and since water is free it is also the cheapest way to avoid constipation. I agree about the number of calories too. I had my worst bout of constipation on Medifast which has NO meat but is very low calorie but supposedly has enough fiber.

[ItsTheWooo]

Originally Posted by catkin

Says who? Has Gary seen the study these conclusions came from?

Studies? Well I'm not sure which part of that post seems like some radical new info to you... if it is the part about food eating being the primary impetus for peristalsis, I can assure you this is an established ... fact... of digestive physiology. Asking for studies is like saying "where are the studies proving the left heart pumps oxygenated blood and the right heart pumps deoxygenated blood".

Intro to peristalsis:

Peristalsis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Peristalsis is the rhythmic contraction of smooth muscles to propel contents through the digestive tract...
Through this process of mixing and continued digestion and absorption of nutrients, the chyme gradually works its way through the small intestine to the large intestine. [as waste]
...

More info specificially about peristalsis once the bolus reaches the large intestine :

Large intestine - MedicaLook Human Anatomy

Large waves of peristaltic action encourage the fecal matter to move closer to the rectum. This is known as mass movement, and it is known to usually occur about two or three times per day after a meal or large snack is introduced to the body.

As for specific examples of eating adequate amounts of food relating to normal bowel movements... look on this very weight loss forum. You've your kimkiners who depend on laxatives, as a perfect example.
In normal physiology, if any singular factor relates most strongly to constipation, it's probably eating consistency and amount. The less frequently and less total food we eat, the more likely it is we will become constipated.

For women who switch to low carb after starvation diets it may seem as if the increased fat is curing the constipation, but more than likely it is just normal eating habits after disordered eating behavior which is also curing the constipation (and the fact that fat does NOT make a significant portion of feces is an equally well established fact of our physiology... if you would like me to look up the infos for that I can do that for ya )

Fiber DOES help constipation, it does so by increasing the bulk of the bolus via the fiber itself and fibers hydrostatic effect (and if you read the links provided above you'll understand why a larger bolus of food is going to prevent / cure constipation). But, fiber is not magic: obviously if one is eating a very cal restricted diet, with very little food, fiber isn't going to make much of a difference. That's why people eating 1000 cals per day, they're probably going to be constipated or at least have difficult bowel movements no matter how much fiber they eat. You need regular meals, large sized meals, to really tell your intestines "hey guys, move it along" ... we evolved to eat obviously .

[RoseofSharon]

I agree that high fiber is not the cure-all the media has made it to be, and Taubes is right to expose that.

But for me eating high fiber foods definitely helps with my satiety, maintenance, and IBS.

Woo, I found what you said about cleanliness so funny! It is true Dr. Kellog started all this back at the turn of the century, when rich folk would go to his sanitarium to be treated with high enemas literally twenty times a day, and fed extreme high fiber diets....into both ends. Kellogg believed a dirty colon led to moral degeneration, impure thoughts, and horrors, novel reading. A clean colon, on the other hand, was said to lead to moral purity and chastity. The key, he said was fiber, which he called "nature's broom."

Americans have always been funny that way. We do get awfully obsessed with our bowels I have had friends who were into high colonics. Yuck!

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by RoseofSharon

I agree that high fiber is not the cure-all the media has made it to be, and Taubes is right to expose that.

But for me eating high fiber foods definitely helps with my satiety, maintenance, and IBS.

Woo, I found what you said about cleanliness so funny! It is true Dr. Kellog started all this back at the turn of the century, when rich folk would go to his sanitarium to be treated with high enemas literally twenty times a day, and fed extreme high fiber diets....into both ends. Kellogg believed a dirty colon led to moral degeneration, impure thoughts, and horrors, novel reading. A clean colon, on the other hand, was said to lead to moral purity and chastity. The key, he said was fiber, which he called "nature's broom."

Americans have always been funny that way. We do get awfully obsessed with our bowels I have had friends who were into high colonics. Yuck!

Kellogg was also a vegetarian. Kellogg and Post (inventer of Post cereals)who both ascribed to the same eating philosophy and religous views, promoted a way of eating that has in my opinion, led to many of the problems in the Standard American Diet (SAD). CuisineNet Digest: Breakfast Cereal Beginnings
The founder of their religion, Ellen White, felt that eating meat brought out people's lowest instincts because she equated carnivorism with carnality since the scriptures teach about the sinfulness of our "carnal nature." White's idea of health reform included vegetarianism. This was in a day and age where "meat and two vegetables" was the standard meal for a typical North American. Her teachings inspired a "health food" revolution starting with Dr. John Harvey Kellogg in his creation of Corn Flakes.

What stikes me as shocking is how closely related cattle and pet food are to modern dry cereals.

Here is a bit of history trivia about Chex cereals:

[COLOR="Sienna"]1894
The Robinson-Danforth Commission Company is founded by William H. Danforth in St Louis, USA. Under the slogan “Cheaper than oats, safer than corn”, The new company produced formula feeds for farm animals mixed with shovels on the floor of a back room.

1898
With the endorsement of 'Dr Ralston', a well-known health guru, Robinson-Danforth enters the fast-growing human cereals market with Purina Wheat and a line of whole wheat breakfast cereals. The word Purina is coined from the company’s new slogan, "where purity is paramount".

1939-1945
Ralston Purina plays a major role in the war effort, and benefits from the boom that follows. In 1942, Ralston Purina sells a million tons of feed for the first time. The cereal business shifts to the background, despite successful introductions of brands such as Wheat Chex® and Rice Chex®.

1994
Ralston spins off its cereal and smaller grocery human food businesses into a freestanding company named Ralcorp. The spin-off includes Bremner, Beech-Nut Nutrition Corporation, Keystone and Breckenridge ski resorts and American Redemption Systems.

2001
Ralston Purina Company merges with Nestlé S.A.'s pet food subsidiary. The Nestlé Purina PetCare Company is created.

[/COLOR]

So the same company that now makes the Chex cereals also made cattle and later pet food. I am old enough to remember when the logo on Purina Pet Food looked almost identical to the logo on my cereal box. It did make me stop and think!

[catkin]

Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo

Studies? Well I'm not sure which part of that post seems like some radical new info to you... if it is the part about food eating being the primary impetus for peristalsis, I can assure you this is an established ... fact... of digestive physiology. Asking for studies is like saying "where are the studies proving the left heart pumps oxygenated blood and the right heart pumps deoxygenated blood".

Intro to peristalsis:


More info specificially about peristalsis once the bolus reaches the large intestine :


As for specific examples of eating adequate amounts of food relating to normal bowel movements... look on this very weight loss forum. You've your kimkiners who depend on laxatives, as a perfect example.
In normal physiology, if any singular factor relates most strongly to constipation, it's probably eating consistency and amount. The less frequently and less total food we eat, the more likely it is we will become constipated.

For women who switch to low carb after starvation diets it may seem as if the increased fat is curing the constipation, but more than likely it is just normal eating habits after disordered eating behavior which is also curing the constipation (and the fact that fat does NOT make a significant portion of feces is an equally well established fact of our physiology... if you would like me to look up the infos for that I can do that for ya )

Fiber DOES help constipation, it does so by increasing the bulk of the bolus via the fiber itself and fibers hydrostatic effect (and if you read the links provided above you'll understand why a larger bolus of food is going to prevent / cure constipation). But, fiber is not magic: obviously if one is eating a very cal restricted diet, with very little food, fiber isn't going to make much of a difference. That's why people eating 1000 cals per day, they're probably going to be constipated or at least have difficult bowel movements no matter how much fiber they eat. You need regular meals, large sized meals, to really tell your intestines "hey guys, move it along" ... we evolved to eat obviously .

Uh...it was a joke.

[fawn]

What stikes me as shocking is how closely related cattle and pet food are to modern dry cereals.

Yep! And our conventional beef is being forced into cannablisim as well! Hence madcow. We live in a sick processed world don't we? I won't even touch so called "healthy cereal" because there is no healthy cereal unless it's hand made like Lydias.

[Tooter]

Just thought I would update this thread. Living without added fiber has been wonderful.

I had almost forgotten about this thread, until Alliecat put a link to it in a post.

Weird, I did some reading on "Fiber" in the diet. The idea of having a High fiber diet was pushed years ago (And yes Kellogg was a big part of it) to get people to not be so sexual and sexual minded! I kid you not, that stuff is out there. Can you imagine, that's how "added" fiber got it's start?

My experiment worked. This from a person who had suffered IBS for years. Symptoms were gone with low carb, except I would still have "bathroom" issues.

I realized that I truly did need to up my fat. Once that was done...No problems going, no bloating etc...

There are also other things I want to touch on. In this busy world, we tend not to "Go" when the urge strikes, or we don't any longer recognize that "urge". We are so busy that we "put it off". Do I have to go? Hmm...Maybe, I'll just finishing doing (whatever you were doing) and then see if you have to go. The "Urge" then passes. Then it doesn't come back. Did you ever notice that? Then you feel constipated (or not moving) and either take a laxative or added fiber. You up your fiber or take a laxative to "GIVE" yourself a Very "Strong" urge. Do you see how this cycle happens?

For me now? There is this slight "urge" to go. I make sure I don't ignore it. It's not 20 minutes in the bathroom waiting for it to Happen. I go in, I go...no straining, no waiting. I'm done. How in the heck could this have been so simple all along? Going to the bathroom shouldn't be a major event. It also shouldn't feel like half your insides just came out. I think that's another reason why I believed the fiber (and others believe they need a laxative) They needed to feel "Clean" like they got everything out and got used to that feeling that half their insides came out when they went. I think we got used to feeling like things were "Working" if we did that. That was how it was supposed to be.

It's no longer like that for me. It's a slight urge. If I ignore it...I won't go later. It's your body trying to "train" you back. To get back in balance. I think in this busy world, we have ignored it.

Sorry about all the bathroom talk, but this is a huge revelation for me.

Also, realizing that all that fiber was actually ruining the muscle reaction, it took out vitamins and minerals from my body (Come on, we know it takes away the effects of medication, do you really think it doesn't effect vitamins and minerals?).

Am I totally anti-fiber? No. There is nothing like the fiber in veggies. An avocado? *drool* Love it. I'm talking about the BS in eating High fiber diet with grains and cereals (fiber one) and that a person needs 35 grams of fiber in their diet.

That is CRAP (pardon the pun)

If someone wants to do it, and is enjoying it, you feel like it's working for you... Go for it. More power to you. Been there, done that. This is where I'm at in my "Journey" right now. Does it mean everyone should do what I am doing? No. I'm sharing what I have learned and how it is applied to my Life right now, at this point in my Journey.


Now, the other shocking thing that has changed with me is...


Water pushing. I will NEVER do that again. If you are doing it and enjoying it. Good for you. I'm past that right now. I don't find the benefits from it. This is where I am at in my Journey also. I finally realized that all that water pushing was also pushing out all the vitamins and minerals that my body needed.

Think about our ancestors. They didn't "push" water. They drank when Thirsty.

Do I think water is important? I sure do. I drink water. I just don't "push" it.

Can pushing water help with pushing fat out of your body when dieting? I'm sure it "could", but what else is it forcing out of our bodies? It would make sense that it would also strip your body of important nutrients. After all...You would be "Flushing" your system. It might be a "Good Thing" once in awhile, but every day? You would flush out some bad stuff, but you would also be flushing out the "Good" without a way to build the good stuff back up.

Getting rid of diet soda was HUGE for me. It's so funny, looking back now. I drank diet soda (which dehydrates and strips you of nutrients) and then I would be so Thirsty, I would pee all the time and then PUSH water. It's almost funny to look at what I was doing now.

I'm not Thirsty all the time anymore. I don't "push" water or liquids. I drink when I am thirsty and the "Thirsty" Urge is not that intense one that I had from being dehydrated (from diet soda). Weird, it's a little urge like "going to the bathroom" is now. My body no longer has to "Scream" at me, to try and get me to listen to it. I hear the "little" urges and respond. It's amazing to me right now. It took a long while to get where I am at right now, but it sure has been worth the Journey so far.

Anyways...

This is just where I am at in my own "Journey" right now and thought I would update.

[Tooter]

I still haven't read the book "Fiber Menace" yet...But here is the book review from the Weston Price Foundation site.

Thumbs Up: Fiber Menace



All Thumbs Book Reviews
Fiber Menace

By Konstantin Monastyrsky
Ageless Press
Reviewed by Kathryne Pirtle

The striking cover photo of Fiber Menace--a cereal bowl filled with brass hardware screws--primes the reader for its startling message: the USDA-endorsed high-fiber diet creates disastrous effects for the digestive system.

Fiber Menace describes major health problems that can develop from eating what's considered a modern healthy diet high in fiber from grains, vegetables, fruits, legumes and even fiber supplements. The author details how high-fiber diets produce large stools which stretch the intestinal tract beyond its normal range--eventually resulting in intestinal damage--and a drastic upset of the natural bacterial flora of the gut. The end results manifest as hernias, hemorrhoidal disease, constipation, malnourishment, irritable bowel syndrome and Crohn's disease. He also provides numerous medical references to show that high-fiber diets do not confer the benefits claimed for them.

The author of this book is a brilliant professional man who suffered a life-threatening illness from years as a vegetarian living on high-fiber foods. Konstantin Monastyrsky was trained as a pharmacologist, but after immigrating to the US from the Ukraine, pursued a career in high technology. He worked in two premier Wall Street firms: as a senior systems analyst at First Boston Corporation and as a consultant at Goldman-Sachs & Co. He has also written two best-selling books in Russian: Functional Nutrition: The Foundation of Absolute Health and Longevity, and Disorders of Carbohydrate Metabolism.

Monastyrsky explains that human teeth are fashioned to chop flesh and that our digestive system is built to handle mainly protein digestion, with only small amounts of fiber. When we eat too much fiber, digestion lasts longer and fermentation occurs, endangering the bacterial flora and causing problems such as bloating, flatulence and enlarged stools, leading to constipation or diarrhea, IBS and diverticular disease.

One fascinating chapter of Monastyrsky's book details the problems of drinking too much water. Drinking the currently recommended eight glasses of water a day may cause problems such as mineral depletion and imbalances, which can contribute to digestive disorders, kidney disease, degenerative bone disease, muscular disorders and even cardiac arrest from electrical dysfunction. Paradoxically, overconsumption of water may also cause constipation. When too much water is added to a high-fiber diet, the fibrous foods swell and ferment in the intestinal tract, leading to gas, bloating and other uncomfortable effects.

Traditional peoples did not drink large quantities of water. Instead, they stayed hydrated with milk, fermented beverages and bone broth soups, which contribute abundant nutrient qualities and do not upset the body's homeostasis. Plus, traditional peoples consumed plenty of fat, which renders much more water during metabolism than proteins or carbohydrates.

I was very interested in this author's perspective as I also suffered a life-threatening digestive illness and recovered through eating a nutrient-dense diet, which happens to be a low-fiber diet. For years, I ate lots of fruits and vegetables--mostly raw--and ate tons of grains and faithfully drank eight glasses of water daily. I ate some meat and dairy but avoided fat--and definitely no butter! I developed severe intestinal damage from undiagnosed celiac disease and a hiatal hernia.

The material presented in Fiber Menace makes me wonder whether my digestive disorders--which led to intestinal damage and severe malnutrition--may have been caused by all the fiber I was eating, rather than gluten intolerance.

For those who worry about getting enough nutrients without eating raw vegetables and fruits, the author reminds us that nutrient-dense animal foods contain concentrated nutrients because the animals spend their whole lives chowing down literally tons of fresh green grass and other plant matter. The result is meat and fat containing all the vitamins and minerals found in fresh produce, not only in more concentrated form, but also one that is easy for us to digest.

Fiber Menace gets a Thumbs Up, but the book is not without flaws. The book becomes repetitive in the later chapters in the descriptions of various diseases caused by eating the way the doctors tell us to. And Monastyrsky's audience would have been better served with a concise presentation of what to eat. He is firmly in the WAPF camp, recommending butter and small amounts of cod liver oil, but in this book he fails to emphasize the healing effects of bone broths, fermented foods, medium-chain fatty acids and liberal amounts of the fat-soluble activators A and D. (His book in Russian, Functional Nutrition, does emphasize these foods, and Monastyrsky tells us that he will be translating these sections into English and posting them at his website fibermenace.com.)

The author does warn his readers not to eat anything that your great, great, great, great grandparents wouldn't eat . . . but our forebears did include high-fiber foods like grains, legumes, fruits and vegetables in their diets. They could do this without ill effects because they knew how to prepare these foods by soaking and sour leavening or, in the case of vegetables and even many fruits, by cooking, and because they did not weaken the mucosal tissue by following a low-fat vegetarian diet.

Monastyrsky warns readers of problems when switching to a low-fiber diet. It is important to gradually cut down on high-fiber foods and make sure you are getting adequate fats and foods that build the intestinal flora. As stools are smaller, the urge to eliminate will be less pronounced, so it is very important to pay attention to the "urge" signal; otherwise stools may harden and cause constipation. Interestingly, he points out that a healthy stool is easy to pass, rather small in diameter and is mostly composed of bacteria leaving the body rather than protein residue--the human digestive tract is designed to digest proteins completely. He stresses the fact that it is not necessary to consume fiber to have regular stools as we have been led to believe. Some of the healthiest cultures had very little fiber in their diets.

Dr. John Turner, DC, CCSP, DIBCN, who lectures with me on building health through traditional nutrient-dense foods notes that, "My training as a physician included many hours of nutrition, but fiber was only mentioned in regards to the effects of a deficiency. Never once did any of my professors consider the possibility that too much of what has always been considered a ‘good thing' could have such harmful or far-reaching consequences. The author's detailed description of the trauma imposed to the gastrointestinal mucosa by the expanding fiber is a vivid reminder that returning to the basics of GI function and logically thinking through what our bodies actually are designed to do with the food we eat, should be the first step on anyone's journey to recovery from digestive disorders. Thanks to the insights in this book I have slowly begun to change my approach to common patient symptoms, which I traditionally would have treated by suggesting increased fiber and more water to correct! So far the results are promising."

Many thanks to Konstantin Monastyrsky for writing this important book.

[Ailuros]

I definitely think that drinking a lot of water causes me problems - I need to supplement with potassium all the time. If I drink when I'm thirsty (have a drink nearby, so I don't keep putting it off till later) but don't force it, I feel much better.

I agree on the fibre, too. It's just not something I take into account at all when choosing food.

[Tooter]

Originally Posted by Ailuros

I definitely think that drinking a lot of water causes me problems - I need to supplement with potassium all the time. If I drink when I'm thirsty (have a drink nearby, so I don't keep putting it off till later) but don't force it, I feel much better.

I agree on the fibre, too. It's just not something I take into account at all when choosing food.

Ailuros, I also didn't get the "Your skin looks so good" benefit from water. In fact, my skin looked drier when I pushed water.

The change in my skin was from eating more good fats and also using CO on my skin.

I too, have a drink near by me, but I also don't force it.

[Ailuros]

I think my skin improved from getting enough protein. I always ate plenty of butter, cheese and olive oil, but I generally ate it with bread or pasta. Apart from reducing carbs, I also had a big increase in protein. I'm sure both of those changes helped.

When I had a massage last year, the woman doing it was practically having to mop up the oil from my skin, because it was so much less dry and thirsty than she was used to .