What Atkins did and didn't write, tell me how you know

[bonbon]

I've seen from a number of posts, most recently one today, that folks are pointing to whether or not information is reliable based on whether Atkins wrote it himself or not.

So, since I've seen speculation about this not only related to the website (including newsletters), but also his books, if you have direct knowledge of yes, no or maybe about this, I'd like to see it.

There is information directly from his mouth in the chat transcripts on the atkins center site. But other than that, I'm not sure how anyone could puport to know for sure what he wrote and what he didn't.

Tell me how you know I'm curious.

An interview with Dr. Atkins was posted on this site (I think by Cheri, not certain). The interview was with a magazine. The author described Dr. Atkin's lunch, including a splash of cream in his coffee, and that Dr. A's carbs are 40-45 per day.

During the article the author said that the Atkins website and the last few DANDRs were written primarily by Atkins staffers, not Dr. Atkins.

The article also said Dr. Atkins was "gleeful" about the success of the Atkins low carb product line, including a statement about the rapid growth rate (don't recall the figures).

The article also mentioned that Dr. Atkins had been sued twice for malpractice in conjunction with his complementary medicine practice (he was not the treating physician, however).

On a more general level, if anyone has read the old DANDRs or articles written by Dr. Atkins, the styles of writing are vastly different. I knew Dr. Atkins didn't write the website by that virtue alone, before reading the interview.

The interview had been a "stickie", but is no longer there.

[DixieDreamer]

The Atkins Interview Sticky is still there.

Dixie, different interview. This was a reprint of a magazine interview, not in a Q&A format.

[DixieDreamer]

Ahhh... okay.

[bonbon]

So this is what leads to the speculation that the later books and information on the website are innacurate? I mean, it is the implication that Atkins approves of what was written when he permits his name to appear on the book cover? Regardless of whether he wrote every word, correct? He did change positions on things over the years as he had more patients.

Well thanks for the source, I'm still not sure that something is less worthy because it was authorized by him rather than written by him. And I'm still not sure how you tell what was written by him in any book that's been published.

At least we know where that came from now.

I did a search and this teaser sounds like the interview, but you need to be a subscriber.

Business 2.0 - Magazine Article - Printable Version - Dr. Atkins Is Getting Fat

"It's not his waistline that's growing -- it's his wallet. Here's how Atkins Nutritionals turned the diet world's flavor of the month into a $100 million-plus empire. See story. Robert Atkins doesn't want dessert. ..."

http://www.business2.com/articles/ma...7902%2C00.html

Well, you can figure from the article he didn't write -- or whether he read and approved -- anything else.

If anyone chooses to believe that Dr. Atkins changed his mind after 30 years, that's certainly their perogative. I've stated several times that the changes which have occurred -- more veggies, more fruit, the term "good" fats, are obviously a marketing strategy to remove criticism of the Atkins program and position it to compete with The Zone.

There are so many errors at the website and in DANDRs, it's hard to believe ANYONE is reading or approving anything.

The above article also mentions that Dr. Atkins had left much decision making to his staff at the Atkinscenter, prefering instead to enjoy more of a retirement (not an exact quote). It is the last few years which have introduced subtracting fiber, allowing LC bars (particularly Atkins brand), increased veggies, focus on lower fat proteins such as chicken and fish.

But, if someone wants to think it was Dr. Atkin's idea ....

[DixieDreamer]

Originally posted by Kimmer

If anyone chooses to believe that Dr. Atkins changed his mind after 30 years, that's certainly their perogative. I've stated several times that the changes which have occurred -- more veggies, more fruit, the term "good" fats, are obviously a marketing strategy to remove criticism of the Atkins program and position it to compete with The Zone.

You don't think over the course of 30 years that new information that became available was not incorporated as appropriate? I just view it as refinements based on new and compelling information.

[LC Lifer]

Originally posted by Kimmer
If anyone chooses to believe that Dr. Atkins changed his mind after 30 years, that's certainly their perogative. I've stated several times that the changes which have occurred -- more veggies, more fruit, the term "good" fats, are obviously a marketing strategy to remove criticism of the Atkins program and position it to compete with The Zone.

Wait, am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that Atkins (a cardiologist) had it 100% right 30 years ago, and that no studies done in the last 30 years would have had any impact on his thinking whatsoever?

If that's what you're saying, I disagree. The studies on leafy greens and health, 'good' fats and health, are overwhelming. If you think he scoffed at them, I hope you are wrong. If by some weird egotistical reason he did scoff at them, I'd like to remind people that he wasn't GOD, he was a cardiologist. He wasn't the founder of low-carb, he was the pusher. He wasn't the sole authority on nutrition, either. Elevating his writings to Jesus-like status without taking common sense into account is more of a religion than a nutritional program, no?

He had good ideas. The Hellers have good ideas. The Eades have good ideas. Allan & Lutz have good ideas. Even the dread Sears has some good ideas. Unfortunately, when writing a diet book, you MUST generalize, you MUST dumb it down for the masses, and you can't be perfect for each and every dieter.

Which is why so many LC plans work. The general concept is right. Tweak it however you want till it works for you, is my opinion. I don't care who wrote what if it works.

LC

Dixie, no I don't, because the "changes" have all been in the past 2-3 years. The data has been available for years. It really sounds more like a marketing strategy to me, especially since Atkins now offers meals delivered to your door, a la, The Zone.

I also don't think Dr. Atkins designed or approved the Induction menu printed in January magazines -- not that I don't think it's a good one, but smacks of "countering objections", which is step 1 in any marketing program.

[bonbon]

How do you know it was to position it against the Zone? The fish recommendation came as a result of the study Atkins Center paid for on the diet didn't it? The results of that study indicated that the diet worked especially well with fish as the protein source.

I personally don't agree with allowing folks to believe that they can eat a bunch of lowcarb junk food from the start and still expect to lose well. And I'm sure nobody here would suggest that I do. That's what we counsel against here.

I'm just trying to figure out how anyone can say what particular sentences, other than the ones I agree with of course , Atkins wrote. That list item number 20 you have in your siggy Kimmer, from the 1977 book, is the same in the one from 2000 for example. Wish I could recall number 19, but I've given that book away plus a bunch more I bought for folks.

I don't "know" it's The Zone. Rule #2 in marketing is to identify the competition. It's purely my opinion because it's the only other major low carb competition for Atkins (CAD and Somersize aren't) and receives an enormous amount of press, including name mention by celebrities.

It is The Zone that Dr. A was asked to compare Atkins to in the CNN interview (where he stated 65% fat in comparison to The Zone figure which is lower, but only because of a higher carb percent).

It is The Zone that first offered meals delivered to your door.

It is The Zone that stresses lower fat protein choices. You can bet it wasn't Dr. A's idea to fund the chicken/fish study, it was another marketing decision (or the nutritionists, one of which said she dips her salad in dressing so as to not overdo fats).

It doesn't sit well with me that for years Dr. A advised against the sugar alcohols, the "-itols" until it seemed he could make a buck off of it -- but that's a different post.

I think that the "new" Atkins program will be more successful for weight loss because of the lower fat (calorie) element, as well as providing a larger variety of fruits.

But I don't believe it was Dr. A's idea.

Bonbon & Dixie, I went back to delete my signatures to save space and I reread my posts. You both made good points and my answers sound snotty. It's been a rough week at home (next will be worse) and I'm edgy.

Sorry, didn't mean to take it out on you guys.

[bonbon]

My opinion is that Atkins wanted lowcarb (real lowcarb, not the pseudo plans) to go mainstream, to be accepted for the solution it is for many. And that, by gum, is what's happening.

[DixieDreamer]

Originally posted by Kimmer
Bonbon & Dixie, I went back to delete my signatures to save space and I reread my posts. You both made good points and my answers sound snotty. It's been a rough week at home (next will be worse) and I'm edgy.

Sorry, didn't mean to take it out on you guys.

No problem. I have those weeks almost non-stop anymore (at least it feels like it).

[SimpleHarmony]

There are so many errors at the website and in DANDRs, it's hard to believe ANYONE is reading or approving anything.

I have the 1999(?) DANDR and I have to say it's full of typos and inconsistencies. Part of my career is technical editing and I definitely get the feel that at least this edition of DANDR was revised by writers other than Dr. A., and was tamed down, and that prior editions probably did the same.

I probably haven't been a "disciple" (LOL) long enough to comment, but I can't really take "today's Atkins" too seriously, as long as it recommends candy bars. We know THAT revision isn't based on new research! Well, market research! JMHO.

[bonbon]

Kimmer, not a problem. Hope things get a little easier.

For anyone following this thread I consider this an academic discussion.

[my three boys]

I totally agree with you Kimmer. Not that I disagree with the others, however, I think Marketing has had a MAJOR impact on the philosophy of the newer versions of Atkins. He was basically KISS, maybe not quite as strict, but you know what I mean.

I do believe this has caused an awful lot of problems for some individuals. They hear so, so many contradicting statements, who knows what is right? If I remember correctly, in the interview in the sticky thread, the question was asked why someone could get different answers for the same question from different individual at the Atkins Center. I believe that "back in the day" this would not have been a problem. It was black and white. You could, or you could not eat something. Period.

Now, that said, sometimes maybe things aren't black and white, and everyone is different. I just think that with regard to Atkins the marketing has caused problems. And, yes, I feel it is to keep up with the Zone as well as South Beach.

Whatever the case. At least the word is getting out that American eating habits are all backward and we can now adress the situation and do our best to fix it!

[bonbon]

Everyone has an opinion. As long as it's labeled as such I'm just trying to sort out how one knows what Atkins wrote and what he didn't. The discussion digressed from there.

Personally, I have no idea what he actually wrote or didn't, in any edition. Anyone who's published is edited.

So when folks say they know this or that was written by Atkins, but that over there wasn't, I wondered how they knew. Knowing is different from speculating/opining.

That remains my only point/question here. Not intending to get into a discussion of how his team finally got him mainstream, though I'm darn happy they did.

[LC Lifer]

But the discussion of 30 years ago vs. now is interesting too!

I was alive 30 years ago. From what I remember:

Far fewer women were 'working mothers'. Most meals were cooked, not prepackaged. The microwave was in its infancy. There weren't 'protein bars' or easy meal replacements. Meal replacements were for the extremely obese. Fast-food mentality hadn't completely taken hold.

I don't indulge in LC goodies at all, or meal replacements. But the market does demand them, because it's the lifestyle now. To tell everyone NO is not only a bad marketing decision, but totally unrealistic in this day and age. I was alive 30 years ago. I was 8. A lot of people who now do Atkins weren't and don't understand cooking three meals a day. It's not in their reality. It's still in mine (barely!). But 'The Atkins Diet' had to adapt or die and lose out on future generations.

I'm not of the current mentality, and I love to cook, and I don't have children, just a job, but I still realize it exists and there are plans for it. And that doesn't make them wrong. Atkins may not have written it, but he was alive to put his name as approval on everything. It will be interesting to see what happens in the future.

LC

[Lynda99]

I still have my copy of the 1972 version of Diet Revolution. The diet had absolutely no semblance to the plans I see people following on this board. In 1972 it was unlimited cheese and bacon, cream cheese, cream, protein. Chomp, chomp.

But guys, ANYONE can lose on 1000 calories a day. Anybody can lose on strict Stillman, or by fasting, or on any superlow calorie plan.

I'm not being critical, I'm not a good loser on 'old' Atkins, either.

You've gotta admit, the new game of some doesn't seem to have much to do with the Atkins philosophy of "luxurious" eating.

OH, I forgot! I bought it in 1972, so it was never screwed with after the fact.

[my three boys]

LC~

GREAT points. I DON'T work, and have 3 kids, and HATE to cook! (how lazy is that! ) I am trying to improve in this area, but don't think it is the actual cooking, but the mess that insues....

However, convenience is a huge part of our society today. Today, we need everything, and we need it now. That is true with our meals as well.

Getting my husband to drop the shake for breakfast instead of eggs was quite an accomplishment for me as he "had no time!" Now, tell me, just how long does it take to fry/scramble an egg!! Not that long, but it sure isn't instantaneous..

I imagine this does have a bearing on the "new" Atkins thought.

[SimpleHarmony]

I'm just trying to sort out how one knows what Atkins wrote and what he didn't. The discussion digressed from there.

Just curious why the question was posted to the board and not PMed to Kimmer, if discussion wasn't wanted?

[Lynda99]

Frankly, I see more factual errors being made here by members, so if we are going to start discrediting sources entirely for the occasional mistake, maybe we should start here.

You are correct about that! Sometimes this board is more Anecdote than Atkins. That makes it really hard for newbies.

I guess it is better than the candlemaking board I used to be on. The wealth of incorrect information on there could burn your house down!

[marchbaby]

I agree with Dixiedreamer

"refinements based on new and compelling information."

[Dana114]

Originally posted by Lynda99
You are correct about that! Sometimes this board is more Anecdote than Atkins. That makes it really hard for newbies.

Lynda, I didn't mean for that to sound so crappy. Of course we all make mistakes, I do, everyone does. Most of our posters post some excellent information. It is a place where we all share our opinions and experiences so anecdotes are very appropriate and very helpful. Sorry if I offended anyone with that comment, I think there is a wealth of valuable information on this forum and I love you all!

[woe]

Originally posted by Dana114
I love you

Awwwwww...
Now I am blushing after shamelessly twisting your quote..
LOL


Holding eh?
I'll give you credit for that!