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Old 02-19-2012, 02:31 PM   #1
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Anyone making kvass, kraut, pickles or other fermented stuff?

Sally Fallon's book 'Nourishing Traditions' introduced me to the world of lacto fermentation around a little over a year ago; admittedly, I've hardly scratched the surface of the book other than the fermented section and bone broths and a couple of other recipes.

Anyone making beet kvass? I bottled 4 gallons today from my primary fermenter. It had been 'working' for 3-4 weeks, still has just a hint of sweetness to it but it will finish off nicely in the bottles I put it in.

Anyone making kraut? I've actually found a recipe from Rodale's book 'Stocking Up' that I modified and that I consider superior to Sally's version.

Anyone making cucumber pickles? Or pickles from peppers? Or green tomatoes? Or tomatillos? Or a combo of any of them?

Pick a fermented food. I'll be glad to discuss and share what I know and my experience.
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:28 PM   #2
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Interested in fermented foods

I started reading Nourishing Traditions last year, but haven't ventured into fermentation. I enjoy beet kvass and kraut and would love to try your recipes.

Barbara
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:46 PM   #3
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My nutritionist has told me to eat more of these foods. Kimchi, sauerkraut and bone broth.
I would like to make sauerkraut, but not with vinegar. I am eating Bubbie's sauerkraut regularly now and it is just made with cabbage, sea salt and water. Do you have a recipe for that or kimchi?

I can't afford any complicated equipment, but it sure would be cheaper to make my own.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:01 PM   #4
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I make this all the time, eat some everyday. I also make cubed Daikon radish Kimchee (Kimchi). This recipe below is easy and can be eaten right away since it's a summer Kimchee and doesn't need to sit, even other it just taste better and better the longer it's in the fridge!!

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...7-kimchee.html
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:16 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bg1120 View Post
I started reading Nourishing Traditions last year, but haven't ventured into fermentation. I enjoy beet kvass and kraut and would love to try your recipes.

Barbara
With lacto fermentation it's not so much exact recipe as it is method. Spices are individual preferences. Some want salty kraut, some don't; some want dry kraut, some want plenty of liquid to go along with it.

The #1 thing I appreciate about Sally Fallon's method is her incorporation of whey (gravity strained from yogurt) as a starter which also cuts the need for salt in half.

Her basic method for nearly all the fermented recipes (by the quart) is four tbsp of whey and one tbsp salt, or, two tbsp salt if not using whey. In 'the old days' salty fermented foods were OK because it was common for that to be the only salt for the meal you were eating, and it could still be if that's the way you wanted to do it.

I've chosen to go the less salty route and use whey as a fermentation starter.

Kraut:

IME, the sweeter the cabbage, the better the kraut. I've gotten some strong cabbage that just does not produce superior kraut (but it's not like you can always taste test it at the grocer).

I like juicy kraut, actually watery, because I dip into the jar oftentimes solely for a drink of kraut juice, I love it, it loves me. Oftentimes that's all the 'pro biotics' I'll have along with my meal, a drink of kraut juice.

A small tight head usually will give all the solids I desire for the 3.3 liter jars I use.

Chop the cabbage to how you want it, pound/mash it to release some juices out (I use a hickory hammer handle for this), add salt and whey and HONEY, and then add water to the top. Close the lid, set it aside at room temp (in a tray, it WILL spew and overflow some, and smell like kraut). It will ferment in 3-5 days, put it in the fridge, but kraut, in particular, is best to let it season or cure 3-4 weeks, even longer is better (it will keep for MONTHS). I never cook it, always eat it raw, cooking kills the bacteria that gives the pro biotic benefit of fermented foods. Don't worry about the honey, it will be converted to lactic acid in the fermentation process and it gives a good 'wang' to the kraut, especially needed if you're making kraut with more liquid in it in order to have kraut juice to drink also. If you don't want the extra liquid, just pound the cabbage until the juices submerge the solids.

Beet kvass (AKA krauted beet juice):

Sally's recipe for beet kvass is a flop, IMO. I've read numerous accounts on the web of folks who were disappointed in the kvass from her recipe, as I was. IMO, if you have good fresh juicy sweet beets to begin with, her recipe might be OK, but, my experience is that 98% of the time you're not gonna find those kind of beets.

Ukranians/Russians almost always add sugar to the mix. Whether it's honey or sucrose or maple syrup or whatever, it makes for a wonderful beverage in the end, and again, the sugar gets converted to lactic acid during the fermentation process and gives the kvass it's characteristic 'lacto wang'. Also, and this is VERY important when making large batches, the subsequent increased lactic acid content of the kvass (due to the added sugar) allows for it to be kept without refrigeration. A snow white mold will grow over the surface of the kvass during room temp storage (and during fermentation also), but it is harmless, and easily removed in one swipe IF the bottles are filled very near to the top. Also, I put the diced up beets into a nylon mesh fermentation bag which is weighted down with a plate to keep it all beneath the surface during fermentation. This prevents the mold from getting mingled forming on the solids. Mold is EASY to skim off the surface of the liquid, but makes a mess when on the solids.

Other than using whey, my recipe/method differs substantially from Sally's, and is more in line with how it's made in Eastern Europe. I use a standard 6 gal wine/beer fermenter (from Liquor Barn) to make it in, but any food grade bucket would do. I like the fermenter because of the spigot at the bottom, it simplifies the bottling process. Forget the 'second' fermentation Sally says do. I've found it best to use more water per quantity of non peeled (I do remove the brown around the tops) finely diced beets (shred them if you want, if you follow this procedure there will be no alcohol produced) for a consistent better quality kvass with only one fermentation.

Per gallon of water:

½ cup whey

2 tsp (teaspoons) salt

12 tbsp sugar

4 medium or 3 large beets

Because of the variance in the juiciness of beets, you have to 'read' the must after it's made; it should be ever so slightly translucent or not translucent at all; if it's too thin after 2-3 days (all translucence should be gone) add more diced beets to the fermentation bag. This is AFTER all the liquid has been added. So you could have to add some more beets as much as 7 days later. Because this is a 'reduced sodium' kvass, half the water is withheld and added a fews days later when there is a good 'ferment' happening. FYI, the only role salt plays in the process is to keep yeast fermentation (and putrefaction) from occurring and give the lacti bacilli colony time to take hold. Yeast makes alcohol, bacteria makes lactic acid. Incidentally, one of the best tasting and prettiest country wines I ever made was from beets.

Weight the bag down with a plate so that nothing is showing on the surface, set the fermenter aside at room temp and forget about it for 3-4 weeks. Once the white mold colony arrives (it eventually will) refrain from stirring the must, the mold will form a solid blanket over the top and is easily removed when you're ready to bottle.

Last edited by sidhartha; 02-20-2012 at 04:22 AM..
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:30 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sungoddess View Post
My nutritionist has told me to eat more of these foods. Kimchi, sauerkraut and bone broth.
I would like to make sauerkraut, but not with vinegar. I am eating Bubbie's sauerkraut regularly now and it is just made with cabbage, sea salt and water. Do you have a recipe for that or kimchi?

I can't afford any complicated equipment, but it sure would be cheaper to make my own.
Check this site out for a basic intro; there's tons of info out there though.

[edit] ...oops, here's the link: http://www.nourishingdays.com/2009/0...-introduction/

No complex equipment needed at all. In fact, if you wanted or had to, you could easily do this using cottage cheese containers.

Last edited by sidhartha; 02-20-2012 at 04:44 AM..
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:35 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Beeb View Post
I make this all the time, eat some everyday. I also make cubed Daikon radish Kimchee (Kimchi). This recipe below is easy and can be eaten right away since it's a summer Kimchee and doesn't need to sit, even other it just taste better and better the longer it's in the fridge!!

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...7-kimchee.html
Hey, thank you for directing me to that. My sister-in-law who lived in Korea while her husband was in the military used to make 'fresh kimchi' which everyone loved.

I've yet to ferment any kimchi though, someday I will.
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Old 02-20-2012, 07:57 AM   #8
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This is awesome -THANKS!! Beeb, I mixed up kimchi and kimchee. I am going to make kraut and kimchee!!
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:57 AM   #9
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I've made and eaten sauerkraut. I've made cucumber pickles but never did eat them. they didn't seem to have a very good shelf life according to the recipe I followed. We've got a local farmer making good kraut so I think I'll support him and give a try at making my own ginger carrots next. My daughter gobbles up both kraut and ginger carrots!

I like your method for making beet kvass. I love to eat beets with vinaigrette so I never have set aside enough to give making kvass a try.
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:16 AM   #10
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Thanks for all the recipes and ideas! I've been making Sally's beet kvass recipe and drinking it without a ton of enthusiasm. I'll try yours instead.

I didn't realize how important all these fermented foods have become to my health until I went on a trip this week. 5 days so far with no kvaas, kimchi, ginger carrots, or kraut, and my digestive system is miserable.
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:58 PM   #11
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I'm making my first ever batch of homemade sauerkraut from a recipe via google.

I'm open to any suggestions or help.

The recipe said to ferment from one week to months, depending on your taste. About how long is the average fermentation period?

Also, I have mason jars...can I use the metal lids and rings that came with them or should I use plastic ones?
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:31 AM   #12
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Gosh Nigel I don't know how long. It depends on what your taste is. Even mine. sometimes i leave it longer.

Metal lids are fine. I use them for everything , from freezer to canning, and kimchee.
Beeb also has a recipe for kimchee I think. Let me look. That metal is not touching the top.

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Old 03-04-2012, 07:35 AM   #13
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Here is her recipe.

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...7-kimchee.html

Read the whole thread. I think it will help you get started.
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Old 03-04-2012, 10:40 PM   #14
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Thank you for your help, rosethorns.
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghislaine View Post
I've made and eaten sauerkraut. I've made cucumber pickles but never did eat them. they didn't seem to have a very good shelf life according to the recipe I followed. We've got a local farmer making good kraut so I think I'll support him and give a try at making my own ginger carrots next. My daughter gobbles up both kraut and ginger carrots!

I like your method for making beet kvass. I love to eat beets with vinaigrette so I never have set aside enough to give making kvass a try.
Sorry for neglecting the thread, Ive been REALLY busy with other things, but trust me, I LOVE anything to do with with healthy natural food preparation, and I am totally convinced of the humongous health benefits of fermented foods. These foods DO require a little more 'kitchen time' than most others though.

Lacto fermented cucumber pickles:

Follow Sally's basic method of 4 tbsp whey, 1 tbsp salt, or 2 tbsp salt per qt.

You DO NOT have to grow your cukes. Nearly all the big food chains now carry pickling or 'salad' cucumbers. The trick is catching them when fresh and firm. Five 4"-5" cukes will fill a quart jar. Cut them in half or into spears if you have to in order to make them all fit.

Put the cukes in ice water ASAP, long enough to chill throughout. When jars are ready, take them out individually, wipe them down, and cut both ends from them (about 1/16" -1/8").

The seasoning is up to you. I prefer fresh dill but dried dill weed does fine. When using dried dill weed I make a little 'sachet' of it with a coffee filter and cotton string. Tannic acid is important to keep the pickles firm. A lot of folks use grape or oak leaves, I use tannic acid from the Liquor Barn wine making supplies, works like a charm, my pickles stay crisp. IMO, 3-4 garlic cloves, 1 tbsp pickling spice, 1 tbsp dill weed, 1/8 tsp tannic acid per qt works great for some fine eating deli pickles. (you don't really need the pickling spice; garlic and dill alone does fine)

Last edited by sidhartha; 03-07-2012 at 02:32 PM..
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:58 PM   #16
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Thanks for all the recipes and ideas! I've been making Sally's beet kvass recipe and drinking it without a ton of enthusiasm. I'll try yours instead.
I greatly admire Sally for her work in 'Nourishing Traditons', she opened up a whole new world to me (which is in reality ancient), but she was just flat out wrong concerning several aspects of beet kvass. First off, it takes longer than two days for it to ferment (depends VERY much on ambient temperature and sugar content of the must). Secondly, as long as an adequate amount of salt is present, no alcohol will be formed irregardless of how finely the beets are cut up or even shredded. Also, it is not necessary to peel the beets.

Quote:
I didn't realize how important all these fermented foods have become to my health until I went on a trip this week. 5 days so far with no kvaas, kimchi, ginger carrots, or kraut, and my digestive system is miserable.
Whenever I go on trips nowadays I always, always, take my trusty kvass along with me.

I am now supplying my two daughters, my Dad & brother, and me with kvass (my wife indulges every now and again). I hate to do it, but someone else is going to have to start making it for themselves, I'm going to be first.
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:12 AM   #17
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....I like your method for making beet kvass. I love to eat beets with vinaigrette so I never have set aside enough to give making kvass a try.
I meant to add that my daughter and I both use 'kvass and oil' over salads now.
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:20 PM   #18
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Here's some pics. The Chili Sauce I am VERY pleased with; I made it last Wednesday, put it in the fridge Sunday, and had it today on a chicken breast, it is superb; the dried chiles lend themselves to lacto fermentation very nicely. Some of these pictures are from a year ago. Second pic is minced serranos I made Tues, I use this a lot in quacamole and with eggs, next is beets I put up Sat, tommorrow will be the last day of fermenting for them, pickled garlic always comes in handy, fifth pic is salsa, relish, and kraut from last March, sixth pic is deli cukes and romas and onion Italian style seasoning.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Fermented Colorado Sauce.jpg (55.0 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Minced Serranos.jpg (96.1 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg Pickled Beets.jpg (85.8 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg Pickled Garlic_Serranos.jpg (86.6 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Salsa_Relish_Kraut.jpg (98.1 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Cukes_Romas_Onions.jpg (78.3 KB, 4 views)

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Old 03-12-2012, 02:41 PM   #19
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More pics, cukes, early kvass, kraut, deli dills, and last is some kvass fermenting on my office floor right now. I bottle the finished stuff in bulk in 4 litre jugs. Egad, I need to dust in my office! Hope Wifey doesn't see this.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Cukes_Beet Kvass_Kraut.jpg (90.3 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg Deli Dill Pickles.jpg (50.3 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg Fermenter_Kvass.jpg (74.0 KB, 4 views)

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Old 03-13-2012, 04:45 PM   #20
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I just made my first patch of cucumber Kimchi! I can't wait to try it!! It's just like the Kimchee recipe I posted but I added a bit of grated asian pear to it to give it a sweet/sour taste.

Will be trying it tomorrow and if it tastes as good as it smells I'm in heaven!!
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Old 03-13-2012, 05:34 PM   #21
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Oh Beeb

You are so creative.

Now my mouth is watering for fermented stuff.
I'll go in my fridge and fish out some garlic dills
that I made end of summer 2011.

Let us know how the cuke/kimchee turned out.
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Old 03-14-2012, 06:32 PM   #22
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A great and refreshing cucumber salad type dish! It's a fermented food and as Dr. Oz says, "fermented foods should be eaten everyday for their wonderful help benefits, at least 5 tbs a day"!

Cucumber Kimchee

Ingredients:

12 oz cubed cucumber, unpeeled, cubed
1/4 Asian Pear, grated (or a regular sweet pear)
2 TBS Rice Wine Vinegar
1/4 Cup Water w/1Tbs sweetener or 2 drops liquid sweetener
Dash Cayanne pepper (more or less to taste)
1 to 2 stalks green onion, chopped
1 clove garlic, minced
1 TBS minced ginger
1 Tsp Salt

Directions:

Cube cucumbers, put in bowl and add a tsp of salt then mix well. Set aside for 30 minutes, mixing a few times during the 30 minutes.

Add chopped onions, vinegar, water, garlic, ginger, and sweetener and mix well. Add Cayanne.

Put in covered container and let "rest" on counter for 1 hour. Mix well again and let "rest" again for another hour.

Put in refrigerator and eat within one week. Mix each time before serving and make sure you serve with some of the juices...yummy!!

Fish sauce can also be added to this, about 1 tsp. I don't like fish sauce so I just leave it out!

Makes 2 servings.......Enjoy!!

Nutrition Facts
Serving Size 1 Serving

Amount Per Serving
Calories from Fat 2
Calories 48

% Daily Values*
Total Fat 0.23g 0%
Saturated Fat 0.062g 0%
Polyunsaturated Fat 0.103g
Monounsaturated Fat 0.012g
Cholesterol 0mg 0%
Sodium 791mg 33%
Potassium 280mg
Total Carbohydrate 9.52g 3%
Dietary Fiber 1.4g 6%

Sugars 5.5g
Protein 1.24g

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Old 03-14-2012, 08:09 PM   #23
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Where would one get whey? This lacto fermented pickled veggies sound good!!
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:01 AM   #24
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Where would one get whey? This lacto fermented pickled veggies sound good!!
IME, 1 qt Dannon plain yogurt will yield up to 14 ozs whey. VERY important, NEVER squeeze, gravity strain only.

QUICK WHEY AND YOGURT CHEESE

"Makes about 1 cup whey and 2 1/2 cups cheese

1 quart best quality whole natural yogurt

This is a quick and easy method that is not temperature sensitive. You can use commercial yogurt if it is of the very best quality, containing no sweeteners or fillers.

Place the yogurt in a strainer lined with cheese cloth or a clean linen dish towel, placed over a bowl.

Cover with a plate and leave at room temperature for 12 to 24 hours,while the whey runs out. (You may also use a “yogurt cheese maker,” available at speciality kitchen supply shops, rather than a strainer lined with cheese cloth or a towel.)

After the whey has run out into the bowl, you may tie up the cheese cloth or linen towel with the milk solids inside, being careful not to squeeze. Tie this little sack to a wooden spoon placed across the top of a bowl or pitcher so that more whey can drip out of the bag.

When the bag stops dripping, the cheese is ready. Store whey in a mason jar and cream cheese in a covered glass container.

Refrigerated, the yogurt cheese will keep for about 1 month and the whey for about 6 months."

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Old 03-15-2012, 03:34 AM   #25
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I just made my first patch of cucumber Kimchi! I can't wait to try it!! It's just like the Kimchee recipe I posted but I added a bit of grated asian pear to it to give it a sweet/sour taste.

Will be trying it tomorrow and if it tastes as good as it smells I'm in heaven!!
Beeb, are you fermenting it or eating it fresh? I've yet to take the plunge with kimchi.

[edit] oops, nevermind, I've just read your second post....

I question if there's really any lacto fermentation going on with the cuke kimchee though; vinegar inhibits the fermentation process. (I'm NOT bad mouthing vinegar, just saying)

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Old 03-15-2012, 01:38 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by sidhartha View Post
Sally Fallon's book 'Nourishing Traditions' introduced me to the world of lacto fermentation around a little over a year ago; admittedly, I've hardly scratched the surface of the book other than the fermented section and bone broths and a couple of other recipes.

Anyone making beet kvass? I bottled 4 gallons today from my primary fermenter. It had been 'working' for 3-4 weeks, still has just a hint of sweetness to it but it will finish off nicely in the bottles I put it in.

Anyone making kraut? I've actually found a recipe from Rodale's book 'Stocking Up' that I modified and that I consider superior to Sally's version.

Anyone making cucumber pickles? Or pickles from peppers? Or green tomatoes? Or tomatillos? Or a combo of any of them?

Pick a fermented food. I'll be glad to discuss and share what I know and my experience.
I made some sauerkraut for the first time last week. Today, both of the jars are half black (the cabbage). I'm afraid its ruined and I followed the directions exactly from a recipe online. I put the lids loosley on the jars. Is that possibly what I did wrong? The recipe said to do that but I noticed in your pictures, you have the lids clamped down on the sauerkraut. Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated here.
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Old 03-15-2012, 02:31 PM   #27
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All of these pictures are great.
I love everything you did last summer and now.
I always seal my jars tightly, hand tight.

Nigel do you have a kraut recipe? My sister loves kraut and she would love a kraut recipe.
Did the recipe say to can these?
I love kimchee, pickles, fermented tomatos and now I'll check out Beeb"s recipe.

Nigel Great thread.

Last edited by rosethorns; 03-15-2012 at 02:33 PM..
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:03 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
I made some sauerkraut for the first time last week. Today, both of the jars are half black (the cabbage). I'm afraid its ruined and I followed the directions exactly from a recipe online. I put the lids loosley on the jars. Is that possibly what I did wrong? The recipe said to do that but I noticed in your pictures, you have the lids clamped down on the sauerkraut. Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated here.
I'd say if it's black it's ruined, the nose should confirm that too. Can you provide the link for the recipe you followed?

I've yet to have my first failure at fermenting, but I've always used whey, which I believe to be insurance for success. This is Sally Fallon's recipe (I prefer to omit the caraway seeds, and I add water along with some honey for kraut juice to drink):

Traditional Sauerkraut

1 medium cabbage, cored and shredded
1 tbsp caraway seeds
1 tbsp sea salt
¼ cup whey

Mix all of your ingredients in a bowl. Pound with a wooden pounder or a meat hammer for about 10 minutes to release juices (great for developing arm strength, or for anger management!). Place in a quart-sized wide-mouth mason jar and use the pounder to press the cabbage down until the juices come to the top of the cabbage. Again, the top of your fermenting kraut should be at least one inch below the top of your jar. Cover tightly and keep at room temperature for 72 hours before transferring to the fridge. The kraut can be eaten immediately (which is usually what happens here), but it does improve with age.

Last edited by sidhartha; 03-15-2012 at 03:04 PM..
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:21 PM   #29
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Heheh, so I googled "Why did my sauerkraut turn black?":

"I'm making sauerkraut in a crock. Why did it turn black?

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker:
It was probably exposed to the air. Shredded cabbage will make it's own juice when "krauting" but it should be covered with vinegar to prevent your problem. Sometimes it will blacken if your brine is made with iodized salt. NEVER use iodized salt in pickling brine. I will wager you used iodized salt!

Asker's Comment:
Yes, I did use iodized salt...OOPS!"

Fess up Nigel, you used iodized salt didn't you, c'mon now, let's hear the truth.

(forget the comment about the need for vinegar, it simply ain't so)

Last edited by sidhartha; 03-15-2012 at 03:24 PM..
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Old 03-15-2012, 06:40 PM   #30
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Nope, I used sea salt, just like the recipe said. I got the recipe from Nourished Kitchen and I'll post it here. It didn't have vinegar or whey in it, but I am willing to try again. The only thing I varied from this recipe, was adding in the caraway seeds and I used two glass jars instead of a crock.

Homemade Sauerkraut Recipe

cabbage, salt, time

Ingredients:
  • 2 medium heads cabbage (about 4 to 5 total pounds), cored and finely shredded
  • 2 tablespoons unrefined sea salt
  • Equipment:
  • large mixing bowl
  • sauerkraut crock or vegetable fermenter
  • wooden spoon or dowel
Method:
  1. Toss cabbage and salt together in a large mixing bowl and begin to squeeze the cabbage and salt together with your hands, kneading it thoroughly to break up the cellular structure of the shredded cabbage.
  2. When the cabbage has become limp and released its juice, transfer it to a sauerkraut crock or vegetable fermenter. Pack the salted cabbage into the crock or fermenter as tightly as you can, eliminating air bubbles. Continue packing the cabbage into the container until it is completely submerged by liquid. Cover loosely and allow it to sit at room temperature, undisturbed, for at least seven days and up to three or four weeks, testing the sauerkraut every few days until it is done to your liking. Transfer to the refrigerator or other cold storage where it should keep for at least six months.
TIME: 20 minutes (active), 1 to 4 weeks (fermentation) | YIELD: about 2 quarts | NOTES: If scum appears floating in the brine of your homemade sauerkraut, simply spoon it off. You won’t be able to remove it all, but spoon of what you can and don’t worry about. The real key to preparing homemade sauerkraut, and any, is that the solid materials rest below the liquid. Fermentation is an anaerobic process and to expose your ferments to air increases the likelihood that they’ll become contaminated by stray microbes, yeasts and molds.

Last edited by Nigel; 03-15-2012 at 06:42 PM..
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