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-   -   Low Carb yeast bread *experiments* (http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/low-carb-recipe-help-suggestions/691168-low-carb-yeast-bread-experiments.html)

slbbw 09-15-2010 07:49 AM

Low Carb yeast bread *experiments*
 
I am no stranger to bread making. I regularly turn out dinner rolls, bagels, and various loaves.. practically blind-folded. However, I am COMPLETELY gob-smacked in my efforts to produce anything remotely acceptable using vital wheat gluten and yeast! :confused: Yesterday, before I chucked my bagel sacrifice into the trash, I had the uncomfortable feeling I was shaping something that could be used as a special effect in a sci-fi movie! I mean, what IS this stuff? :sick: I followed the recipe like a research scientist! I do have one loaf of low carb bread in my freezer, but honestly I do not think I'll ever eat any of it.

Am I the only one who has despaired at ever making anything edible using it?

For now, I'm sticking to quick breads. I'm very happy with the muffins, biscuits and sandwich rolls I've made with low carb baking mixes. If I could find a commercially produced low carb bagel, I wouldn't even try a low carb yeast bread again. Can anyone point me in that direction? :aprayer:

ravenrose 09-15-2010 09:42 AM

I agree. I haven't done as much yeast-based baking with low carb stuff as I intended when I got all those things KevinPA suggests in his recipes, because the results are just meh.

I mean, you could eat them if push came to shove, but they are no better than the alternatives--either flaxy/almond mealish foccacia type things or low carb tortillas. Even oopsies!

I've tinkered with the WPI 5000 and WPI 800 and so on, the resistant wheat starch and resistant corn starch, the carbalose and carbquick. Meh.

It's a pity too, because I have about 2 cups of dry yeast in the refrigerator. LOL

Sometimes I just let it start working and stir a little into something like a pizza crust as a seasoning, not expecting it to leaven anything. *sigh* It sure does smell good though!

CreekWatcher 09-15-2010 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravenrose (Post 13895296)
I agree. I haven't done as much yeast-based baking with low carb stuff as I intended when I got all those things KevinPA suggests in his recipes, because the results are just meh.

I mean, you could eat them if push came to shove, but they are no better than the alternatives--either flaxy/almond mealish foccacia type things or low carb tortillas. Even oopsies!

I've tinkered with the WPI 5000 and WPI 800 and so on, the resistant wheat starch and resistant corn starch, the carbalose and carbquick. Meh.

It's a pity too, because I have about 2 cups of dry yeast in the refrigerator. LOL

Sometimes I just let it start working and stir a little into something like a pizza crust as a seasoning, not expecting it to leaven anything. *sigh* It sure does smell good though!

Ravenrose, I can't help but wonder if you are getting the same results as Kevin and some of us are getting...I would never mistake my lc breads for the best of any kind I've ever had, but they taste at least as good as most hc commercial breads [or maybe that's exactly the level of tastiness that makes you say "meh"...]

Now the store-bought hc bread comparison I just made applies to breads made with a regular short rise. They can be improved (not radically, but significantly) by using an extended autolyse period. I simply mix the dough and instead of letting it sit for 20 minutes before kneading as Kevin suggests, I give it at least a day (usually a few days, and sometimes even weeks). This requires putting the resting dough in the fridge, which is easy because it just needs to be wrapped, it does not need a space to rise in. This allows more flavor to ferment in the dough, and also allows me to cut the kneading time about in half, for which my Kitchen Aid is grateful.

You can also add significant flavor by using beer as some part of the liquid (I always do), and/or add some combo of acid (like vinegar, buttermilk or cream of tartar) and light sweetening.

One other small note, I find that these lc breads are particularly tasty when grilled in a flat pan on one side only, left to cool and served with cold butter spread on the un-grilled side.

ravenrose 09-15-2010 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreekWatcher (Post 13895469)
Ravenrose, I can't help but wonder if you are getting the same results as Kevin and some of us are getting...

Yeah, probably I always keep tweaking it to lower the carbs. The Kevin recipes are just too high for me. I might have one slice of something like that in a week, but having a whole loaf is just counterproductive for me. So I am not complaining about his recipes, I just tried to make things with the ingredients he suggests.

CreekWatcher 09-15-2010 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ravenrose (Post 13896128)
Yeah, probably I always keep tweaking it to lower the carbs. The Kevin recipes are just too high for me. I might have one slice of something like that in a week, but having a whole loaf is just counterproductive for me. So I am not complaining about his recipes, I just tried to make things with the ingredients he suggests.

I can see what you mean; I don't have a problem enjoying just a slice or two (I have a problem limiting lots of other things), and at a couple of carbs per slice that's not a problem...I'm too lazy to make enough, to go through the stuff fast.

drjlocarb 09-16-2010 02:07 PM

I just spent days reading and taking notes and last night made 2 loaves of bread from Kevins thread. (post#1023) I thought the bread was great.

Mind you I have been off bread, for the most part, for the better part of a decade!

CreekWatcher 09-16-2010 02:59 PM

Congratulations, drjlocarb. If you should ever be moved to, you could also look at Kevin's newest mix (post #135) and the bread he makes from it (post 143), here:

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...our-mix-5.html

...and/or his "pita" recipe:

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...xperiment.html

drjlocarb 09-17-2010 09:57 AM

Creek,

Post #135 in the mix thread is the mix I used to make the bread in post #1023 in the simple bread thread. I tried the post # 143 bread in the mix thread and the second I put it in the oven it fell. By the time it was done baking it was back to the pre-rise size!:dunno:

SO, I went back and read ALL the threads Simple White, Pita, and Mix. Took me days, made lots of notes and came up with#3 mix in #1023 bread.

But, now that I have your attention, I have a few ??'s for you if you are using this mix.

Kevin said he was using the mix in place of flour in any recipe. Have you tried this?

Have you made the LC Wheat or added bran with the mix?

Have you tried the pizza crust, or pretzels, or the cinn rolls, cold rise apps, etc? Are you using Bread #4 for these?

Thanks for any help!! I am working on a complete LC Thanksgiving with non-LC guests. Need stuffing bread, rolls, breakfast rolls, sandwich bread.

They MIGHT get real mashed taters IF I decide it's really neccesary.:rolleyes:

CreekWatcher 09-17-2010 12:31 PM

That's great, I see you're way ahead of me...I actually haven't used Kevin's mixes for soda baking for a while because because I just prefer not to have such a large amount of wheat protein where it isn't a neccesity (as it definitely is for yeast apps)--so I make up my own mix, usually, for each recipe, in sort of a haphazard fashion. I can't remember if I ever made bread #4 (probably did), but I will probably take a tip from you now and try it with the new mix.

I have made Kevin's cinnamon buns a couple of times, but stuck with the original recipe. Never made pretzels (but I was intrigued by a joint on Diners Drive Ins and Dives that makes a pretzel hamburger bun that's supposed to be really good, and wondered if Kevin's recipe could be bent into something like that)...made the cold rise apps in the dimming past, but now I get the cold rise effect more conveniently with my extended autolyse period.

I tried pizza a couple of times but did not impress myself. Off the subject, the best eratz crust I've ever had, lc or hc, was one recently where I took Mama Lupe's tortillas, deep fried them until puffy and pretty crisp, then borrowed a technique posted here recently for "boneless pizza" where you smear sauce on parchment paper, throw cheese and toppings on it and bake the the "top" by itself...made a slightly sloppy transfer onto the tortillas [used parchment formed in a small frying pan for the pizza top]...it tasted remarkably like a super thin crust hc pizza. By the way the boneless pizza thread is here:

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...ess-pizza.html

CreekWatcher 09-17-2010 01:18 PM

PS:
I've made "whole wheat" bread using both the Pita bread recipe and the new mix loaf recipe, by subbing wheat bran in the amount of 12% of the total flour weight, and wheat germ in the amount of 3% " ", making the room for these by reducing the carbalose accordingly (so that all the other regular mix ingredients are full strength). It worked out quite well in both cases, although the expected reduced rise was greater than I expected (that is, it was denser than I anticipated)...the whole wheat "new" loaf might have been slightly better.

By the way, for convenience I expect the wheat germ might be left out with about the same result.

Perdita 09-17-2010 05:00 PM

The problem with kevinpa's info is there sooo much of it. :) however, I do remember making one good batch of yeasty light rolls with his mix and directions, and then the next one had that carbalose taste from hell. I'm horrible with doughs, though, so I didn't pursue it much, but the one successful batch I made tells me that a real baker could probably do wonders.

drjlocarb 09-19-2010 09:39 AM

Creek, Thanks for that info. I think I will try the wheat bran idea and make that batch into rolls. The LC wheat rolls seem to rise better that the loaves.

Perdita, I don't taste the carbalose. Thinking I have dead taste buds, I made several non-LC friends taste the bread I made, they all said it tasted like real bread. One accused me of lying! Sorry you can taste it.

slbbw, What recipes did you try?

slbbw 09-19-2010 10:02 AM

@drjlocarb - these two were the primary disasters. I tried one other bread machine bread, but I'm not sure which recipe I used. It was slightly less disastrous, but barely edible nonetheless.

Bread Machine Bread

Ingredients:

* 1/2 cup warm water (95-105F)
* 1/2 cup heavy whipping cream
* 1 Tablespoon oil
* 1 egg, room temperature, beaten
* 1/4 teaspoon salt
* 1 cup plus 2 Tablespoons vital wheat gluten flour
* 1/2 cup oat flour
* 1/2 cup vanilla or unflavored whey protein powder
* 1 pkg Rapid Rise yeast

In a large bowl mix vital wheat gluten flour, oat flour, salt, and whey protein powder until well sifted together. Set aside.

Heat cream to slightly warm; then mix with warm water and egg. Add oil to bottom of bread machine. Then add water/cream/egg mixture. Carefully add flour mixture so it 'floats' on top of liquid. Sprinkle yeast packet evenly across the top of flour. Set your bread machine according to directions for "Rapid Bake" (usually 2 hours) or whatever settings allow a full rise cycle but only one knead cycle.

Entire Loaf: 60 grams net carbs.

[This loaf rose about a foot above my bread machine. I .. am... not... exaggerating. ] :eek:

DANIELLE MICHALSK'S BAGELS

Recipe By :
Serving Size : 6 Preparation Time :1:30
Categories : Bakery Bread Other Flours Substitutes


Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method
-------- ------------ --------------------------------
1 cup gluten, wheat -- flour
(Bob's Red Mill)
1 1/2 tbsp almond meal
or any nut meal/flour
1 1/2 tbsp soy protein isolate -- or whey
1 lg egg
1/4 tsp salt
1 1/2 tsp yeast -- 1/2 pkt
1/2 cup warm water
1 1/2 tsp sugar -- yeast food
1 tbsp oil
1 tbsp baking soda
1/2 tsp cream of tartar
3 qt water -- 3 litres
1 egg yolk
1 tsp ice water

Proof the yeast in the warm water and sugar.
Mix the flour, nut meal, and protein powder in a bowl.
Add in yeast mixture.
Mix to combine the ingredients, and then add
in the 1 large egg and the salt.

Mix together to form the dough. (Dough will be smooth and elastic.
If it is sticky, add a little more vital wheat gluten.)
Knead the dough for 8-10 minutes and then place in a well-oiled bowl.

Coat the dough with the oil, cover, and place in a warm draft-free place until it is doubled in size (about 1 hour).

After the dough has risen, punch it down and knead for another 2 minutes. Divide the dough into 10 equal pieces.

In the meantime, prepare a well-buttered cookie sheet.
Shape the pieces of dough into balls, then flatten the balls and cut out a donut hole in the middle.

Place the bagels on the buttered cookie sheets.

Let the formed bagels rest for 8-10 minutes on the buttered cookie sheets.
Bring 3 quarts - 3 litres of water to a boil and add the baking soda and cream of tartar.
Using a slotted spoon, carefully place 3 bagels at a time in the pot and cook for 2 minutes on each side.
(They will puff up considerably in the water.)
Place the boiled bagels back on the buttered cookie sheet and repeat the process until all the bagels have been boiled in the water.

----- Stop Here---- We did not proceed beyond this point!

[If I weren't so frustrated, this bagel experience would be hilarious. I have never had such a spectacular failure. Every step was like.. WTH???]

Happily, I investigated KevinPa at the suggestion of some in this forum. I'm awestruck by his work as well as Scott123. As soon as my netrition order comes in, we're back to the drawing board. I'm anticipating many successes!
Many thanks to those who helped. :hugs:

drjlocarb 09-19-2010 11:21 AM

I have not been able to make bread with almond flour or whey ptn.

The post numbers and threads above are the ones I have had any luck with.

If you are looking for bagels, there is a post in the Simple White Bread thread #572 for pretzels that might work. Baked not boiled.

I have no success with my bread machine. I can't set it for only one rise. I do let it mix and knead. Kevin says to mix, let sit 15-20 min, then knead for 15-20 min, then shape and let rise once and bake. This has worked for me.

I never made bread without a bread machine..ever, and I can do this.

slbbw 09-19-2010 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreekWatcher (Post 13900254)
Congratulations, drjlocarb. If you should ever be moved to, you could also look at Kevin's newest mix (post #135) and the bread he makes from it (post 143), here:

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...our-mix-5.html

...and/or his "pita" recipe:

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...xperiment.html

Having trouble finding the not/Sugar. Any suggestions for substitute? :dunno:

drjlocarb 09-20-2010 07:33 AM

Hi slbbw, You can sub not/Sugar for, not/Starch, or guar gum + xanthan gum. The not/ Sugar is available at Netrition.

As are all the things highlighted in blue. Just click on the highlighted item above.

Soobee 09-20-2010 10:43 AM

Slbbw, if you use guar or xnathan, use less. I do 1/3 the called-for amount of Not/Sugar.

CreekWatcher 09-20-2010 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 13910545)
Hi slbbw, You can sub not/Sugar for, not/Starch, or guar gum + xanthan gum. The not/ Sugar is available at Netrition.

As are all the things highlighted in blue. Just click on the highlighted item above.

Those two "not-" links are now referring to other (similar) products at netrition; I'd forgotten about those products having gone defunct (I've got a little of one bag and one unoponed one). If anyone has a good experience (yeast bread wise) with a substitution I'd be interested to hear about it.

CreekWatcher 09-20-2010 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drjlocarb (Post 13907852)
Creek, Thanks for that info. I think I will try the wheat bran idea and make that batch into rolls. The LC wheat rolls seem to rise better that the loaves.

Perdita, I don't taste the carbalose. Thinking I have dead taste buds, I made several non-LC friends taste the bread I made, they all said it tasted like real bread. One accused me of lying! Sorry you can taste it.

slbbw, What recipes did you try?


Forgot to mention, I've always had to add more liquid when using the bran, in order to get the dough to seem right, but have never measured the additional. That's complicated by the fact that the feel of whole wheat dough is different from "regular," but you may already be well familar with that from hc baking.

jlatislaw 09-20-2010 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreekWatcher (Post 13912239)
Those two "not-" links are now referring to other (similar) products at netrition; I'd forgotten about those products having gone defunct (I've got a little of one bag and one unoponed one). If anyone has a good experience (yeast bread wise) with a substitution I'd be interested to hear about it.

I found this interesting site while searching for info on this.

Questions and Answers - Zanthan Gum, Xanthan Gum, Guar Gum, What is Zanthan Gum

Should answer your questions on gums and baking.

From the site:

For every cup of wheat-free/gluten-free flour, use 1 tsp. xanthan or guar gum for cakes, 2 tsp. xanthan or guar gum for breads or pizza, and 1 tsp. or no xanthan or guar gum or most cookies.

drjlocarb 09-20-2010 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreekWatcher (Post 13912252)
Forgot to mention, I've always had to add more liquid when using the bran, in order to get the dough to seem right, but have never measured the additional. That's complicated by the fact that the feel of whole wheat dough is different from "regular," but you may already be well familar with that from hc baking.

I made a wheat bran loaf today. It rose way above the pan! I did not use extra water but did use baking powder. I also used the new not/sugar. I noticed it has fructose in it and will try with the old not/starch I have left next time.

One of the other loaves I made, I used the old not/starch and the other loaf I used 1/2 and 1/2 old not/starch and new not/ sugar.:stars:

BTW, I have never made bread other than with a bread machine until now.

drjlocarb 09-20-2010 06:22 PM

One more question for those who bake.

Is the bread supposed to be done rising when you start baking, or is it supposed to rise more after you put it in the oven? Dose it make a difference in the final product?

Thanks,drj

Kona sunset 09-20-2010 09:56 PM

Did a search for bread tonight and was reading through this thread. I would like to point out that the new Sugar Not is different from the old not/Sugar. I don't think not/Sugar is even made any more. I never used it because when I was wanting to try it, I couldn't get it. I checked the ingredients for the Sugar Not and it is a sweetener rather than something to give the texture of sugar as was not/Sugar. I usually just use the xanthan gum/guar gum blend although I'm still experimenting with just how much to use.

drjlocarb 09-21-2010 09:19 AM

You are right!

So, the last loaf I made had NO gum stuff at all and it still turned out great.

CreekWatcher 09-21-2010 11:05 AM

drjlocarb, that's great news about your wheat loaf; you got a better rise than I have WITHOUT any gums at all!

My experience with Kevin's "pita" bread rolls is that only rarely did I get a very slight oven rise (and usually a very slight retraction during baking and/or cooling instead)...not so with the "new" mix bread; if you get the amount of counter rise right (which I have a lot of trouble doing) it will rise significantly in the oven. (I can tell you that new mix in yeast apps is capable of doing some weird things, as Kevin has previously agreed.)

How much baking powder did you put in your wheat loaf?

slbbw 09-21-2010 02:28 PM

Thanks for the heads up on not/sugar and not/starch. I figured out they were different products when I read the nutritional info on netrition.

I made a text file with the xantham gum advice you guys posted. :up:

I have a question for drjlocarb. Is the wheat bran loaf you made from Jen Eloff's recipe? If it's a different one, please post recipe link.. pleeeeeze. As to your question about bread rise. With traditional hc bread baking, depending on various factors it will rise 1/3 to 1/2 again more in the oven. Too inexperienced with lc breads so far. Interesting choice to add baking powder, but these breads are so radically different in their behavior.. who knows? Maybe you hit on something! :cool:

Still waiting for the UPS guy.. :aprayer:

drjlocarb 09-21-2010 04:32 PM

I don't link.:blush: You are lucky I learned the difference between thread, sticky, and post. Had dial-up til Feb. and I don't type.:rolleyes: Will post the recipe with tweeks tomorrow. It is a combo of things from Kevin's Simple White Bread Thread.

Notice how I used the correct terms!

drjlocarb 09-22-2010 09:50 AM

OK,this is a combo of Kevin's post #247 with crazywoman's hints on adding bran and Kevin's hints on working the dough. :stars:

Dr J's Crazy Kevin Bran Bread

1/4 c. cream
3/4 c. water
2 eggs
2 T. butter
1/2 t. salt
2 T. wheat protein isolate 8000
1 3/8 c. carbalose flour
1 1/4 c. + 2T wheat protein isolate 5000
2 T. resistant corn starch 260
1/2 c. wheat bran
1 1/2 t. sugar
2 T. Splenda
2 t. baking powder
2 1/4 t. rapid rise yeast

Mix all the ingredients then let the dough rest for 20 min. for the gluten to develop.

Knead for 20 min.

Place in a glass, greased loaf pan to rise. I put it in a "warmed" oven and let it rise 50 min. I left it in the oven and turned it on to 350 and baked for 30 min.

I think I could have made 2 loaves.
Or 1 loaf and a few buns.

I did the mix, rest, knead in my bread machine.

I came up with 47g net carbs for the whole loaf and 15-18 slices, so about 3 carbs per slice.

CreekWatcher 09-22-2010 10:09 AM

hmmm...the humongous amount of WPI 5000 might also have something to do with the good rise. [I recall now that Kevin used huge amounts in some of his earlier recipes.] How did you find the taste?

drjlocarb 09-22-2010 11:56 AM

:laugh:

Funny you should ask. I keep forcing all my friends to taste test these different breads because I don't trust my LC taste buds. They all give :up:. They say no weird taste. I don't even let them put butter on the bread.

Of course, I think it is GREAT!


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