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Old 05-28-2007, 01:42 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by theislandgirl View Post
Regular Stevia unless otherwise posted (pure white extract, pick your favourite brand).

The measures add up to approximately 1 2/3 Cups in bulk, but I'm thinking the sweetness is approximate 2 1/2 to 3 Cups worth...ballpark minimum...maybe a little low.

So, I forgot to ask.. how much of this blend are you using to equal 1 cup of sweetener in your recipes?
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Old 02-12-2008, 10:03 PM   #182
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Well, I hesitate to bring up ancient history by resurrecting this thread, but did folks abandon the idea of a synergistic pre-mix?

Kevin, could you tell me what combo you most usually turn to when you need the equivalent of a cup of sugar in, say, a cake for instance?

Thanks!

Susan
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Old 02-12-2008, 10:48 PM   #183
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I for one gave up on any pre-mix. Too many people are effected adversely by different sweeteners to please all of the people all of the time or most of the people none of the time or some of the people half the time or 12 people 100 times...... anyway you get my drift.
Getting a multi-sweetener that acts and measures like sugar is the easy part, getting one most can use is the hard part.

I plan on sticking for the most part with some combination of splenda, (isomalt or diabetisweet), and erythritol on a recipe by recipe basis.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:08 AM   #184
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i'm still going to try donna's shuga blend but havnet gotten around to it, yet
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:28 AM   #185
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Thanks Kevin and Yummy!

Kevin, I promise that I read thru this entire thread at some absurd hour last night, and may just have forgotten by this morning (been known to happen :blush but can you tell me what the Isomalt/DS adds to the equation? I know that the Erythritol bulks almost like sugar, so is the DS there to simply keep the E as low as possible to avoid the cooling affect/crystalization? Did you determine that Inulin and NotSugar are not needed (as discussed earlier in this thread) to reduce the crystalization/cooling?

Thanks for your input,

Susan
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:49 AM   #186
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Thanks Kevin and Yummy!

Kevin, I promise that I read thru this entire thread at some absurd hour last night, and may just have forgotten by this morning (been known to happen :blush but can you tell me what the Isomalt/DS adds to the equation? I know that the Erythritol bulks almost like sugar, so is the DS there to simply keep the E as low as possible to avoid the cooling affect/crystalization? Did you determine that Inulin and NotSugar are not needed (as discussed earlier in this thread) to reduce the crystalization/cooling?

Thanks for your input,

Susan
Susan, when I said:
Quote:
I plan on sticking for the most part with some combination of splenda, (isomalt or diabetisweet), and erythritol on a recipe by recipe basis.
I wasn't even addressing reduction of crystalization/cooling, only the sweeteners I prefer to use.

I also prefer to deal with the crystalization/cooling on a recipe basis since there are many things that can have an effect on it other than inulin and notSugar. It is my opinion that there are too many variables to come up with a valid pre-mix that works.
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:30 AM   #187
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Thanks for the clarification, Kevin.

-Susan
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Old 11-01-2008, 12:33 PM   #188
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Just want to add another big Thank You to all who spent lots of time and $ on the experiments! Reading this thread was very educational and certainly helps me understand why some of my recent questions have not gotten clear cut answers - there AREN'T clear cut answers!

It's so great to be able to learn from such hard core bakers!

DG
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Old 11-23-2008, 07:36 AM   #189
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I understand from reading this thread that there is no one best recipe for a direct sugar replacement...

That said...

which one works best for you in terms of taste, cost, effectiveness in baking, most recipes, etc.??

Thanks!
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Old 11-23-2008, 10:37 AM   #190
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I understand from reading this thread that there is no one best recipe for a direct sugar replacement...

That said...

which one works best for you in terms of taste, cost, effectiveness in baking, most recipes, etc.??

Thanks!
I'm not sure what you're asking. Which sub or which combination, or what do we use or what?
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:48 PM   #191
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Kevin, I know this is WAY after the fact, but I think if you just would have dropped the inulin from the mix (and maybe dialed back the xylitol), the digestive complaints would have stopped. Inulin is so close molecularly to polyd (one is polymerized fructose, the other polymerized glucose) that if polyd bothers you, it's almost guaranteed that inulin will as well.

Of course, once you lose the inulin, the erythritol will have a greater tendency to crystallize. The not/sugar will help,though, and you can back off the erythritol, replacing the sweetness with splenda. I wasn't aware of this when I was last here, but erythritol, because of it's low molecular weight, isn't bringing any sugary texture to the table. Instead of thinking of it as a bulking agent, it's best to put it in the synergistic sweetener category.

One of the conclusions that I've come to while I was away somewhat mirrors what's was observed here- it's pretty much impossible to give people the texture of sugar and not have any complaints. Every ingredient that adds sugary bulk causes problems to someone somewhere. What you can do, though, and, I believe this now more than ever, is combine the right sweeteners to create a quality of taste that is indistinguishable from sugar.

So texture, when baking for company, is pretty much a losing battle. Taste, though, can be conquered. I'm not giving up hope for texture, entirely, mind you, there's just no silver bullet. Taking a page out of the splenda for baking book, I think textural compromises are worth investigating- say a mix with all the sweetness of sugar, but half the texture (or even 1/4 the texture) or a focus on desserts that depend less on the texture of sugar than others (the LC flagship cheesecake is a perfect example).
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:56 PM   #192
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I wasn't aware of this when I was last here, but erythritol, because of it's low molecular weight, isn't bringing any sugary texture to the table. Instead of thinking of it as a bulking agent, it's best to put it in the synergistic sweetener category.
Erythritol does tend to form a nice "crust" on baked goods and aerate the batter when beaten with the butter in cakes.
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Old 11-23-2008, 06:46 PM   #193
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Erythritol does tend to form a nice "crust" on baked goods and aerate the batter when beaten with the butter in cakes.
I'll give you aeration with butter (due to it's granular nature), but... I'm a little skeptical about the crust Once dissolved, e molecules aren't big enough to really 'do' anything. Try melting equal parts e with water- the result will pretty much have the consistency of water.
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Old 11-23-2008, 06:54 PM   #194
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Hey Scott, just slightly off this subject but not all the way, if you get a chance I would be interested in hearing your observations of how you think my pseudo light brown sugar works. Tastewise and functionally. I'll post the thread if you have not seen it.
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Old 11-23-2008, 07:42 PM   #195
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Kevinpa, I found the recipe, thanks. It certainly looks amazing. Are you using this 1:1 in traditional light brown sugar recipes? I get the feeling that if I used it for my chocolate chip cookies (2 cups of brown sugar, I believe), it would be cooling city. Are you not getting cooling with this?
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Old 11-23-2008, 08:59 PM   #196
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Kevinpa, I found the recipe, thanks. It certainly looks amazing. Are you using this 1:1 in traditional light brown sugar recipes? I get the feeling that if I used it for my chocolate chip cookies (2 cups of brown sugar, I believe), it would be cooling city. Are you not getting cooling with this?
not in any of the things I have made with the light brown version. The combination of the yacon and the not/sugar seems to handle the cooling.

I have not used the dark brown as much but it looks promising.

BTW I made a psuedo carmel sauce with it too.....the texture waqs a little off but the taste was spot on.
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Old 11-23-2008, 09:57 PM   #197
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Kevin, in what way was the texture off? Was it slushy?

I'm guessing that in the context of other ingredients in baking, the yacon and n/s were enough to prevent crystallization, but in just water they may not be up to the task. When e gets into water without much else, it's like a pig in you-know-what when it comes to crystallization/cooling.

I'm curious, what kind of syrup does not/sugar make on it's own? Is it slimy? I've been thinking about it a bit, and, a while back I worked with a gum called carboxy methyl cellulose (cmc) that created a jelly like syrup that, if memory serves me correctly, wasn't as slimy as guar and xanthan. It was actually surprising sugary (kind of like a cross between gelatin and sugar, but extremely clear). Anyway, I'm sure you need one more ingredient to play around with like a hole in the head, but just in case you were interested, I thought I'd mention it. I get the feeling that gums might end up as the only non laxating alternative to sugary texture.

Btw, polyd, inulin, yacon and agave nectar are all cut from pretty much the same polymerized sugar cloth (with yacon and agave having a higher fructose content), so if you have digestive concerns with polyd/inulin, you might want to be aware of your yacon consumption. I'm guessing that yacon's strong flavor profile prevents it from being used to excess.
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Old 11-23-2008, 10:04 PM   #198
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here was my experiment in this thread.

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...-bar-help.html
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Old 11-24-2008, 08:10 AM   #199
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a while back I worked with a gum called carboxy methyl cellulose (cmc) that created a jelly like syrup that, if memory serves me correctly, wasn't as slimy as guar and xanthan. It was actually surprising sugary (kind of like a cross between gelatin and sugar, but extremely clear). Anyway, I'm sure you need one more ingredient to play around with like a hole in the head, but just in case you were interested, I thought I'd mention it.
Scott:

Believe it or not, I have something labelled "CMC Ticalose Gum" in my pantry -- is this the same stuff you are mentioning to Kevin, above? I bought it quite a while ago because I was seeing that cellulose gum was an ingredient in lots of packaged low carb sauces, dips, etc and I was thinking about trying to make my own. Never got around to it, and was never really sure if this was the right stuff anyway.

Any suggestions for use? (Perhaps to make pudding?) I do some low carb/low cal baking -- will this improve rise or texture to baked goods the way Xanthan can, do you think? (I also have "cellulose powder" -- I believe that a touch of this has been helpful in getting some of my quite-high-fiber baked goods to rise, but I'm not entirely sure. . . .)

Thanks for being around for interrogations (and thread-jacking)
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Old 11-24-2008, 08:14 AM   #200
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not in any of the things I have made with the light brown version. The combination of the yacon and the not/sugar seems to handle the cooling.
HI Kevin:

If I wanted a light brown sugar taste to some muffins, do I have to mix the yacon with the E etc first, or can I just mix it in with all the other ingredients? I guess what I'm asking is if the yacon will only inhibit the E cooling affect if mixed/mushed separately with the E for some reason, perhaps to fully integrate with the E. . .
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Old 11-24-2008, 08:54 AM   #201
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HI Kevin:

If I wanted a light brown sugar taste to some muffins, do I have to mix the yacon with the E etc first, or can I just mix it in with all the other ingredients? I guess what I'm asking is if the yacon will only inhibit the E cooling affect if mixed/mushed separately with the E for some reason, perhaps to fully integrate with the E. . .
I was looking for something that looked and stored like brown sugar and although the yacon helps inhibits the cooling effect I included it for the flavor.

Does it work if you don't mix it together? I never tried it that way.
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Old 11-24-2008, 10:47 AM   #202
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Does it work if you don't mix it together? I never tried it that way.
Thanks! I'll let you know what happens when I get around to trying it without pre-mixing first.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:51 PM   #203
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Scott:

Believe it or not, I have something labelled "CMC Ticalose Gum" in my pantry -- is this the same stuff you are mentioning to Kevin, above? I bought it quite a while ago because I was seeing that cellulose gum was an ingredient in lots of packaged low carb sauces, dips, etc and I was thinking about trying to make my own. Never got around to it, and was never really sure if this was the right stuff anyway.

Any suggestions for use? (Perhaps to make pudding?) I do some low carb/low cal baking -- will this improve rise or texture to baked goods the way Xanthan can, do you think? (I also have "cellulose powder" -- I believe that a touch of this has been helpful in getting some of my quite-high-fiber baked goods to rise, but I'm not entirely sure. . . .)

Thanks for being around for interrogations (and thread-jacking)
You're welcome

I did a little research and Ticalose is a brand name. There could be a variation between what you have and what I have (in the commercial gum/starch world, they tend to go crazy with variations of the same product), but I get the feeling it should be very close.

If you have it on hand, you might as well play with it

Take about a 1/4 C. of water and wisk in a little bit of ticalose (maybe an 1/8 t.). Use, if you can, the sprinkle-while-whisking technique that you'd use for adding xanthan or guar. See what you get. Taste it. Is it sugary? Is it slimy? What does it look like? Try adding some more. If you get clumping (If memory serves me correctly, cmc is less likely to clump than xanthan) set it aside for a few hours (maybe refrigerate) and then take a look at it then.

You might want to do the same thing for xanthan so you can compare them side by side. The xanthan, as we know, will be slimy and a little opaque. The cmc will be clear, but hopefully not quite so slimy.
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Old 11-25-2008, 03:45 PM   #204
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Edit: In the middle of some polyd caramelization experimentation, I looked at my sauce in progress and thought to myself, 'hey, that looks a lot like sf maple syrup, what's in that again? There's usually some form of sugar alcohol, but that's not all that's in there. What else gives it texture.... hmmmm... oh, yeah... cellulose gum."

I've got a good feeling about cmc.
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:08 PM   #205
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You're welcome

I did a little research and Ticalose is a brand name. There could be a variation between what you have and what I have (in the commercial gum/starch world, they tend to go crazy with variations of the same product), but I get the feeling it should be very close.

If you have it on hand, you might as well play with it

Take about a 1/4 C. of water and wisk in a little bit of ticalose (maybe an 1/8 t.). Use, if you can, the sprinkle-while-whisking technique that you'd use for adding xanthan or guar. See what you get. Taste it. Is it sugary? Is it slimy? What does it look like? Try adding some more. If you get clumping (If memory serves me correctly, cmc is less likely to clump than xanthan) set it aside for a few hours (maybe refrigerate) and then take a look at it then.

You might want to do the same thing for xanthan so you can compare them side by side. The xanthan, as we know, will be slimy and a little opaque. The cmc will be clear, but hopefully not quite so slimy.
Ooh, goody, an experiment! Now, ya' couldn't convince me to get up an interest in science, but FOOD science -- now you're talkin'.

So what beside syrup should we try to do with this stuff? Do you think it has any applications in baking?

I won't be back from some holiday and business travel for a couple of weeks, but I'll try to start playing around with this stuff when I get back. Hopefully you'll still be hanging around and we can play CMC tag.

Thanks, Scott!
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:05 PM   #206
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Erythritol does tend to form a nice "crust" on baked goods and aerate the batter when beaten with the butter in cakes.
[Just now read the more recent postings for this thread}
Lauren (or Scott or Kevin or anyone else), do you find that erythritol creams about the same way with butter as sugar does? I have found that when I get to the egg-adding step, it starts to curdle after a fair amount has been added, and it doesn't matter too much how slowly they go in, whether I beat the eggs first or put in one whole one at a time, beater speed, etc...but when I put the flour in, the batter ends up looking normal...perhaps the curdleing of the eggs in the middle step is simply irrelevent? (Of course, it is only erythritol I put in for the creaming step, I always add poly-d to the dry ingredients, I know that stuff will not cream with butter.)
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:07 PM   #207
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I'll give you aeration with butter (due to it's granular nature), but... I'm a little skeptical about the crust Once dissolved, e molecules aren't big enough to really 'do' anything. Try melting equal parts e with water- the result will pretty much have the consistency of water.
I believe I tried "torching" some erythritol...sprinkled over something...long ago, and the effect was sort of like a layer of ice; no browning, of course, but it became a clear crispy film...
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:38 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by jacksmixedtape
Erythritol does tend to form a nice "crust" on baked goods and aerate the batter when beaten with the butter in cakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott123 View Post
I'll give you aeration with butter (due to it's granular nature), but... I'm a little skeptical about the crust Once dissolved, e molecules aren't big enough to really 'do' anything. Try melting equal parts e with water- the result will pretty much have the consistency of water.
I suspect the "crust" is recrystallized E (or undissolved, for that matter). I've found that the darn stuff is pretty resistant to staying dissolved (surprise ).

One example, a very fine caramel sauce using both pdx and E, with sufficient pdx dominating so that in theory recrystallization is inhibited (as you well know, Scott, being the original Caramel Sauce guy). Well, just let it sit. A few days and there's a little crust of very fine crustals, long enough and the whole thing slowly goes solid, out from the original layer of crystals at the edge (classic crystal formation, very much like iIe Fog on an intriguing side note). You end up with fudge, pretty much. Tasty, but not sauce, definitely fudge.

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Old 12-01-2008, 11:42 PM   #209
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Retroworx and Scott, I've been buying Carboxyl Methyl Cellulose here, in the (biggest with a great selection of bulk ingredients) health food store, for years. I've occasionally posted about it, usually as a part of a veg gum/thickener synergistic blend.

Interesting note, the label on the package talks about its primary ("normal") usage as "replacing the properties of gluten" in alternative grain baking, such as rice flour breads. Very common apparently, for a number of years, on a par with xanthan gum for such uses.

Of interest, a number of sugarfree syrups have had (forever) "cellulose gum" or similarly worded items as texturizers and thickeners, sans sliminess...so it's certainly well know and used in the commercial world, and in both wet and dry applications.


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Old 12-03-2008, 05:48 AM   #210
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One example, a very fine caramel sauce using both pdx and E, with sufficient pdx dominating so that in theory recrystallization is inhibited (as you well know, Scott, being the original Caramel Sauce guy). Well, just let it sit. A few days and there's a little crust of very fine crustals, long enough and the whole thing slowly goes solid, out from the original layer of crystals at the edge (classic crystal formation, very much like iIe Fog on an intriguing side note). You end up with fudge, pretty much. Tasty, but not sauce, definitely fudge.
Yes, I've noticed that with erythritol as well- if given enough time, regardless of how much inhibitors you use, erythritol will eventually crystallize.

I can just picture the teensy e molecules sneering at me, saying (in extreme slo mo)

"Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii'aaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmm gooooooooooiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing to wiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn..."
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