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Old 02-16-2007, 10:16 PM   #61
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Kevin: It seems like that is an awfully small amount of inulin to be able to control that large of cooling effect. If someone were to use a different brand of Stevia with a portion of say, Not Sugar or some powdered Inulin, would that possibly moderate the effect?

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Old 02-16-2007, 10:54 PM   #62
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Kevin: It seems like that is an awfully small amount of inulin to be able to control that large of cooling effect. If someone were to use a different brand of Stevia with a portion of say, Not Sugar or some powdered Inulin, would that possibly moderate the effect?
Not sugar will control crystallization with a 4:1 ratio but I have never experimented with inulin to know exactly what its ratio may be.
Since stevia is so potent, I am guessing that the bulk of the 1/8 cup that you use is inulin. I won't know for sure until I get some and test it.
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Old 02-17-2007, 06:21 AM   #63
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I believe I now understand.....

I kept saying to myself there is nothing in Donna's mix to control the cooling effect from the crystallization of the Erythritol and Xylitol.
Then I started looking up stevia plus figuring I would have to get some because if I used the stong stevia that I have I will lose 1/8 cup volume.
Thats when I discovered the Plus in stevia plus was Inulin

Thats the crystallization control and without that inulin you got major double whamy cooling effect going on from both the Erythritol and Xylitol.

I would not try this blend with plain stevia without the plus(inulin) as you will have major cooling effect going on without it.

This is gresat to know, before I go buy osme powdered stevia. Now, since I wont have powdered stevia plus, but I DO have inulin, can you give me an idea how much inulin I'd need to add, to get rid of the cooling effect?
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Old 02-17-2007, 07:01 AM   #64
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This is gresat to know, before I go buy osme powdered stevia. Now, since I wont have powdered stevia plus, but I DO have inulin, can you give me an idea how much inulin I'd need to add, to get rid of the cooling effect?
Sorry Yummy I don't have a clue. If you remove the stevia plus you throw off the the volume and sweetness of the whole mixture. This isn't one of those things you just take a guess at. I plan on ordering some so I can experiment with it but it will be awhile before I would know anything. It took me months playing with the not/Sugar to come up with a ratio I was sure about.
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Old 02-17-2007, 07:30 AM   #65
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This is gresat to know, before I go buy osme powdered stevia. Now, since I wont have powdered stevia plus, but I DO have inulin, can you give me an idea how much inulin I'd need to add, to get rid of the cooling effect?

Wow I really messed up the spelling in that entire paragraph! I guess thats what I get for being on the boards so long this morning after working all night, instead of going to bed.

Time for sleep, I suppose!
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Old 02-17-2007, 07:55 AM   #66
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This is gresat to know, before I go buy osme powdered stevia. Now, since I wont have powdered stevia plus, but I DO have inulin, can you give me an idea how much inulin I'd need to add, to get rid of the cooling effect?
Kevinpa said:
Quote:
Sorry Yummy I don't have a clue. If you remove the stevia plus you throw off the the volume and sweetness of the whole mixture. This isn't one of those things you just take a guess at. I plan on ordering some so I can experiment with it but it will be awhile before I would know anything. It took me months playing with the not/Sugar to come up with a ratio I was sure about.
[COLOR=red]I'm terrible at all this stuff, especially when I have to try to figure out the math, but....... wouldn't you use 1/8 cup of the inulin. Cause that is the main ingredient (making the bulk) in the stevia+. Maybe just a hair under, but it would be easier to measure the 1/8. Or find the equivalent of the stevia pwd (not plus), and use inulin to make up the difference in 1/8 cup. (Did that make sense?)[/COLOR]
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Old 02-17-2007, 12:36 PM   #67
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Kevinpa said:
[COLOR=red]I'm terrible at all this stuff, especially when I have to try to figure out the math, but....... wouldn't you use 1/8 cup of the inulin. Cause that is the main ingredient (making the bulk) in the stevia+. Maybe just a hair under, but it would be easier to measure the 1/8. Or find the equivalent of the stevia pwd (not plus), and use inulin to make up the difference in 1/8 cup. (Did that make sense?)[/COLOR]
In theory, it would seem that this might work...but I agree with Kevin in that it can be "iffy" at best. And besides...do you really want to toss out a few cups of this stuff because you didn't have the Stevia+? I'm just hoping that either they don't stop making Stevia+ or I can figure out a way to incorporate a measure of inulin with another stevia product to offset the cooling effect.

I do get kind of set in my ways and really don't like change... !

Edited to Add: Hey...if you decide to experiment, I SURE would like to hear how it works out!
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Old 02-17-2007, 02:50 PM   #68
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...
Thats the crystallization control and without that inulin you got major double whamy cooling effect going on from both the Erythritol and Xylitol.

I would not try this blend with plain stevia without the plus(inulin) as you will have major cooling effect going on without it.
Probably right. The inulin is used as a carrier or filler, and as noted earlier, a very small amount of pure stevia, especially the High Rebaudioside Stevia (which they don't all declare, darn it) equals the 1 C of sugar. So the majority of the measure IS the inulin.

I for one would have no hesitation in using Inulin in the same proportion as the Stevia Plus in this recipe of Donna's. On a smaller scale, of course.

Side Note: I get more of a, ahem, personal reaction from cooked inulin than I do from cooked polydextrose. Nothing painful but DEFINITELY a reaction, similar to adding a whole bunch of prebiotic to the diet, suddenly . Based on observation and experience, I'm guessing that those who get a reaction from the pdx may be better off with inulin, and vice versa. Cooking wise, they come up with many of the same properties.

Oh, this IS fun.

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Old 02-17-2007, 04:19 PM   #69
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Probably right. The inulin is used as a carrier or filler, and as noted earlier, a very small amount of pure stevia, especially the High Rebaudioside Stevia (which they don't all declare, darn it) equals the 1 C of sugar. So the majority of the measure IS the inulin.

I for one would have no hesitation in using Inulin in the same proportion as the Stevia Plus in this recipe of Donna's. On a smaller scale, of course.

Side Note: I get more of a, ahem, personal reaction from cooked inulin than I do from cooked polydextrose. Nothing painful but DEFINITELY a reaction, similar to adding a whole bunch of prebiotic to the diet, suddenly . Based on observation and experience, I'm guessing that those who get a reaction from the pdx may be better off with inulin, and vice versa. Cooking wise, they come up with many of the same properties.

Oh, this IS fun.

Now that is a fascinating thought... I seem to do quite well with SA's AND (evidently) the inulin in the Stevia+. However, eliminate the SA's and then add in the Poly-d and "painful" takes on a whole new meaning... .

I think the idea of putting together a tiny batch of the Shuga~Blend using the correct proportion of inulin PLUS a teensy bit of (dare I say...?) pure stevia powder at least might render a result worth experimenting with. Maybe something like this:

2.50 TB Xylitol
5.00 TB Erythritol
5.00 TB Diabetisweet
1.50 TB SlimSweet or other sweetener that equals 1 C.???
.75 tsp Inulin
Enough pure Stevia to equal 1/8 C. sugar sweetness

You know...I was adding up what the sugar equivalency would be for everything in my original formula and it is interesting that when added together, I 'should' have the sweetness of 11.50 cups of sugar . But I can honestly say that the level of sweetness is almost identical to real sugar the way it sits right now. I'm beginning to wonder about the whole synergy thing and am now thinking that the more sweeteners you combine you actually get less sweetening power...kind of like the "law of diminishing returns?????"

I'm going to have to ponder this a while....
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Old 02-17-2007, 04:28 PM   #70
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1/8th C == 4 Tbsp == 12 Tsp... etc etc ad nauseum...

Frankly, I think it's more -- way more -- of whomsoever's tongue is doing the tasting (and the unknowable but definite change that occurs with other ingredients and temperature changes) than it is of some definable and distinct synergy multiplier factor...

What is sweetness anyway? I keep seeing terms like brix out there when I'm reading, and there's probably a reason they use vast quantities of testing panels and groups...

Sigh. This isn't helping the discussion any, is it?


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Old 02-17-2007, 04:57 PM   #71
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OK...I'll admit that living in a cave on wheels probably doesn't help much, but what is this term brix .

There has been some proof that cooking (more specifically baking) with synergistic blends has reduced the overall sweet taste so certainly one must take into consideration what applying heat, plus ingredient density does to the finished product. But as I noted in a previous post, even Scott123, who had done extensive research and testing regarding synergistic blending of sweeteners had to admit that the feedback he got regarding his blend was that when used in a recipe the finished product was much less sweet than it should have been.

Ya know...I've been using my Shuga~Blend for over a year now and have NEVER gotten any bad feedback regarding it from others I have provided samples to. Up until recently, I never even gave the 'cooling effect' much thought either since the blend didn't exhibit that particular property. But after discussing this at such length, I think perhaps stumbling onto this formula was just dumb luck on my part. I sure don't want to mislead anyone by implying that my blend is the end-all for your sweetening needs, but considering how far we've come since Saccharin, at least there are lots of options to suit everyone.
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Old 02-17-2007, 05:08 PM   #72
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I have resisted messing with inulin up to this point, but if 1/8 cup has the ability to tame the crystallization of over 3 1/2 cups of S/A that is notorious for its cooling effects then its time to test it as far as I am concerned. I have ordered the things that I think I will need and plan to give it a thorough shakedown.
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Old 02-17-2007, 05:20 PM   #73
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Donna's Shuga~Blend

1/2 lb. Xylitol
1 lb. Erythritol
1 lb. Diabetisweet
1/4 C. SlimSweet by Trimedica
[COLOR=navy][COLOR=black]1/8 C.[/COLOR] [/COLOR][COLOR=navy]Stevia[/COLOR][COLOR=navy]+[/COLOR]
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I think the idea of putting together a tiny batch of the Shuga~Blend using the correct proportion of inulin PLUS a teensy bit of (dare I say...?) pure stevia powder at least might render a result worth experimenting with. Maybe something like this:

2.50 TB Xylitol
5.00 TB Erythritol
5.00 TB Diabetisweet
1.50 TB SlimSweet or other sweetener that equals 1 C.???
.75 tsp Inulin
[COLOR=black]Enough pure Stevia to equal 1/8 C. sugar sweetness[/COLOR]

....
[COLOR=red][COLOR=#ff0000]I hate to have to ask, but ....[/COLOR]Enough pure Stevia to equal 1/8 C. sugar sweetness ? [/COLOR]
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Old 02-17-2007, 05:31 PM   #74
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Kevin: Do you have an equivalency chart on the bottle? Mine says that 2 TB = 1 C. of sugar. Does that help?
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazywoman-n-wy View Post
I hate to have to ask, but ....Enough pure Stevia to equal 1/8 C. sugar sweetness ?
billie that 1/8 cup of stevia plus = 1 cup of sugar.
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Old 02-17-2007, 05:42 PM   #75
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[COLOR=red][COLOR=#ff0000]I hate to have to ask, but ....[/COLOR]Enough pure Stevia to equal 1/8 C. sugar sweetness ? [/COLOR]
Yup...Kevin is correct 1/8 C Stevia+ = 1 Cup sugar sweetness in the original recipe.

But if you're reducing the recipe to 1/8 of its original formula, then you would need the sweetening power of stevia to = 1/8 cup of sugar.

Man!...I'm getting a total rush from all this math!!!!

Kevin: I think it will be very interesting to see how the inulin works. Of course you realize that everyone will be watching and waiting for your final word on the subject... .
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Old 02-17-2007, 05:45 PM   #76
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well it will be at least the middle of next week before i recieve all the supplies I need to do this.
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Old 02-17-2007, 06:31 PM   #77
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well, I can wait a little while for kevin to do some testing, before I dive into this. It would be awesome to have a sugar blend I can just shake up and use, so it's worth waiting for experiemnts.

I'd still have to buy the stevia anyway, and I may end up having to order it, depending on what I find when I goi shopping for it this week. There arent alot of paces here that sell it
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Old 02-17-2007, 06:43 PM   #78
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well it will be at least the middle of next week before i recieve all the supplies I need to do this.
...And I bet you thought retirement would be restful...
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Old 02-17-2007, 08:07 PM   #79
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Kevin: You were so exact in your assessment of the inulin damping the cooling effect of the erythritol. I found this explanation:

From Wikipedia:

Quote:
The cooling effect of erythritol is rarely desired, so hence other ingredients are chosen to dilute or even negate that effect. Erythritol also has a propensity to crystallize and is not as soluble as sucrose, so ingredients may also be chosen to help negate this disadvantage. Furthermore, erythritol is non-hygroscopic, meaning it does not attract moisture, which can lead to products, particularly baked goods, drying out if another hygroscopic ingredient is not used in the formulation.

Very commonly, inulin is combined with erythritol, due to inulin offering a complementary positive heat of solution (warming effect when dissolved that helps cancel erythritol's cooling effect) and non-crystallizing properties. Unfortunately, inulin has a propensity to cause gas and bloating when consumed in moderate to large quantities, particularly in individuals unaccustomed to it. Other sugar alcohols are sometimes utilized with erythritol, particularly isomalt due to its minimally negative heat of solution, and glycerin which has a positive heat of solution, moderate hygroscopicity, and non-crystallizing liquid form.
Well...duh!
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Old 02-17-2007, 09:04 PM   #80
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From Wikipedia:
Unfortunately, inulin has a propensity to cause gas and bloating when consumed in moderate to large quantities, particularly in individuals unaccustomed to it.
Since I have been working with not/Sugar and found what I consider workable ratio, I hope to come up with a combination of not/Sugar and Inulin that will handle any cooling effect and also lower the possibility of the negative Inulin effect listed above. Although gums are also basically fiber they are less likely to give the gasous side effect as the inulin.
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Old 02-17-2007, 10:59 PM   #81
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Glad I read thru this entire thread. I'm quite fascinated to adding inulin to the sugar blend Scott123 recommended to me based on what does and does not affect my blood sugar (Diabetasweet is out for me as, not only do I find it has a most unpleasant taste to me, it raised my blood sugar (the Isomalt component). Unless I eat large quantities, polydextrose doesn't seem to have an affect on me. I've also added inulin to protein shakes with none of those tummy distress issues, so think I can add it to the sweetner mix (perhaps replace the AceK and some of the polyd). Yet more time needed for experimentation. I've also acquired the Splenda QuickPaks and will try them. So far I've only mixed the sweetner up in 2 cup sweetener equivalent quantities and have been using liquid splenda to taste as the splenda component when making candy. Have yet to bake with it.

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Old 02-18-2007, 11:27 PM   #82
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Well, you might want to try adding in Splenda...which might work. The thing about SlimSweet is that it is extracted from a hyper-sweet fruit and it adds a unique depth of sweetness to the blend. However, considering that you don't have it, and it really doesn't add a whole lot of weight in the 1/4 cup called for, using Splenda might do the trick. As I explained, I'm not a huge fan of Splenda, but in this case, you might just want to sub 1/2 cup Splenda for the 1/4 cup SlimSweet and then go from there. Or use 12 packets, if you have those. Remember, before every use, you MUST shake up the canister.

1/2 lb. Xylitol
1 lb. Erythritol
1 lb. Diabetisweet
1/2 C. Splenda granular
1/8 C. Stevia+

I lucked out and found Stevia+ at my local grocer! Woot!

So I'm hoping I have enough of the other ingredients to throw together at least a mini batch of this, to try.

I assume using part of a splenda quick pack wouldnt work here, in place of the 1/2 cup of granular splenda, due to volume.

One last thing:

Donna- I assume you use this shuga~blend of yours cup for cup in place of sugar. Am I correct? I want to bake cookies tomorrow and I'd like to give this shuga~blend a try.

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Old 02-19-2007, 10:01 AM   #83
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I lucked out and found Stevia+ at my local grocer! Woot!

So I'm hoping I have enough of the other ingredients to throw together at least a mini batch of this, to try.

I assume using part of a splenda quick pack wouldnt work here, in place of the 1/2 cup of granular splenda, due to volume.

One last thing:

Donna- I assume you use this shuga~blend of yours cup for cup in place of sugar. Am I correct? I want to bake cookies tomorrow and I'd like to give this shuga~blend a try.
Yummy: IF you're using my original formula (even in a mini-batch), then YES...this is a cup-for-cup replacement. However, since I'm assuming that you're going to be using Splenda in place of the SlimSweet, you'll have to take that into consideration.

OK...after looking at my original recommendations, I'm going to make some changes and assumptions here...

1. The amount of SlimSweet called for in this formula should equal about 2 C. of sugar sweetness. So...with that in mind, I would say that subbing 2 C. of Splenda should work (rather than the 1/2 C. I originally suggested). If you want to really play it safe, split the difference and add in 1 C. of Splenda.

2. Since the Splenda doesn't add any bulk (and neither does the SlimSweet, the bulk issue should be covered.

3. And since there is no change in bulk, it should still be a cup-for-cup replacement.

...I sure hope I figured this correctly...

Now you promise to report your results here, right? I think it's great that you are playing with the original formula to suit your needs and ingredients on hand.

And if you have some REAL sugar in the house, after you shake up your trial blend (BEFORE you bake with it), wet the tip of two spoons and dip one into the real sugar and the other into your blend. Taste the real sugar first...then taste your blend. This should give you an idea of the intensity of the sweetness.

OK...I'm ...hoping that this experiment works!

Edited To Add: Again...I'm not positive, but using the QuickPacks shouldn't be a problem in place of the bulk or packet Splenda. Hey...you're experimenting so why NOT?

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Old 02-19-2007, 11:14 AM   #84
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Thanks, Donna! I'll get to this tonight or tomorrow, and report back!
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Old 02-21-2007, 05:50 PM   #85
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I recieved all my orders today and will most likely be putting on my Mad Scientist Cap tomorrow and am taking suggestions for the ultimate test for this sweetener.

I will be using 4 different formulas.
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Old 02-21-2007, 08:46 PM   #86
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Okay, since you asked, a test: melt unsweetened chocolate, then sweeten to taste with blend. What happens to the texture of the chocolate? Any grittiness? What about flavor? Any bitterness?

Great project to take on, Kevin. Thanks. We're all indebted to you - and Donna - and Scott - for solving one of our perennial problems.

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Old 02-21-2007, 08:54 PM   #87
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Okay, since you asked, a test: melt unsweetened chocolate, then sweeten to taste with blend. What happens to the texture of the chocolate? Any grittiness? What about flavor? Any bitterness?

Great project to take on, Kevin. Thanks. We're all indebted to you - and Donna - and Scott - for solving one of our perennial problems.

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How much chocolate and what is the sugar benchmark?
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Old 02-21-2007, 11:40 PM   #88
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Oooooooooooooh, good one. Yep, not a ganache, just a nice smooth dipping chocolate that hardens back up without turning into ganache...the kind you'd dip a strawberry into, like a bittersweet. That would be:
Quote:
Bittersweet chocolate is chocolate liquor (or unsweetened chocolate) to which some sugar (typically a third)...
about a 33% sugar sweetness. Does that work for you, Kevin?

Me, I'd very much like to hear what happens to a meringue. Not the dry kind, the still-a-bit-gooey-in-the-middle Nigella Lawson Pavlova style...do-able? That would be a 4 egg whites / 1 C "sugar" ratio (or 2 whites and half a cup, etc. etc.).

Then I would like to melt the chocolate on top of the pavlova with berries !



Sorry to butt in, just couldn't resist!

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Old 02-21-2007, 11:43 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theislandgirl View Post
Oooooooooooooh, good one. Yep, not a ganache, just a nice smooth dipping chocolate that hardens back up without turning into ganache...the kind you'd dip a strawberry into, like a bittersweet. That would be:
about a 33% sugar sweetness. Does that work for you, Kevin?

Me, I'd very much like to hear what happens to a meringue. Not the dry kind, the still-a-bit-gooey-in-the-middle Nigella Lawson Pavlova style...do-able? That would be a 4 egg whites / 1 C "sugar" ratio (or 2 whites and half a cup, etc. etc.).

Then I would like to melt the chocolate on top of the pavlova with berries !



Sorry to butt in, just couldn't resist!

I just pm'd you to get your opinion while you was typing this.
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Old 02-22-2007, 01:58 AM   #90
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Good suggestions from both RVCook and theislandgirl! I cannot wait to hear the results!
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