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Old 02-16-2007, 10:44 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephdray View Post
Measure for measure, erythritol is like 90 percent of real sugar, right? And retains its bulk. So theoretically, you'd need to add another 10% sweetness (splenda?) and another 10% bulk (poly-d) to make it equal a cup.

But then, it still crystalizes too easily, so we have to mix it with other stuff, right? (Just trying to get the chemistry right.)
Actually, Erythritol is more like 70% as sweet as sugar from my experience. It DOES retain its bulk. So you'd have to make up for the lost 30% of sweetness by using some other highly concentrated sweetener like LoHan or Stevia+.

Crystalization can be an issue, but I don't seem to have it with my blend. It must be the total combination of all the ingredients in my blend that account for that phenomenon. Scott123 was baffled when I told him that I didn't get ANY! I even whirl the Shuga~Blend around in the coffee mill and use it powdered! And even then, the "cooling" factor is surprisingly low!
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Old 02-16-2007, 11:00 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by stephdray View Post
...I guess I'm going to have to play with what I've got until I have a combination I like (Erythritol, Diabetisweet, Granular Splenda, & Sweetened Poly-D might take on the taste as well as the bulk of sugar I'm thinking)...
Keep in mind that the sucralose (sweetener in Splenda) is already in the sweetened PolyD (PolyD Plus), so you don't really need to use the Splenda granular in your blend to get the sweetener synergy of blending. So you can lose the 24g per cup of high carb high glycemic maltodextrin carbs of the Splenda in this blend. If you want to boost the synergy/sweetness some more, use another sweetener, either bulk or high-intensity. Stevia, Slimsweet, Ace-K, whatever you can get your hands on.

You've already got plenty of bulk from the E, the D and the P...and that 90% for the E? That refers to the sweetness level not the bulk, so the same bulk (volume for volume as you said) requires a 10% increase in sweetness but not in the bulk. And the synergy of mixing will provide that 10% and then some, so it would be more important to use the taste test than the numbers.

Geez, that was clear as mud!

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Old 02-16-2007, 11:18 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by theislandgirl View Post
Keep in mind that the sucralose (sweetener in Splenda) is already in the sweetened PolyD (PolyD Plus), so you don't really need to use the Splenda granular in your blend to get the sweetener synergy of blending. So you can lose the 24g per cup of high carb high glycemic maltodextrin carbs of the Splenda in this blend. If you want to boost the synergy/sweetness some more, use another sweetener, either bulk or high-intensity. Stevia, Slimsweet, Ace-K, whatever you can get your hands on.

You've already got plenty of bulk from the E, the D and the P...and that 90% for the E? That refers to the sweetness level not the bulk, so the same bulk (volume for volume as you said) requires a 10% increase in sweetness but not in the bulk. And the synergy of mixing will provide that 10% and then some, so it would be more important to use the taste test than the numbers.

Geez, that was clear as mud!

Hey Jude...beginning to feel like a molecular gastronomeur??????

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In late 1990s and early 2000s, the term started to be used for a new style of cooking that was unafraid to explore the possibilities of food scientifically. It was used to describe the cooking methods of a number of famous chefs, although several have subsequently repudiated the idea of "molecular gastronomy", and say that their cooking is instead a search for excellence.

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Old 02-16-2007, 11:20 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by theislandgirl View Post
Keep in mind that the sucralose (sweetener in Splenda) is already in the sweetened PolyD (PolyD Plus), so you don't really need to use the Splenda granular in your blend to get the sweetener synergy of blending. So you can lose the 24g per cup of high carb high glycemic maltodextrin carbs of the Splenda in this blend. If you want to boost the synergy/sweetness some more, use another sweetener, either bulk or high-intensity. Stevia, Slimsweet, Ace-K, whatever you can get your hands on.

You've already got plenty of bulk from the E, the D and the P...and that 90% for the E? That refers to the sweetness level not the bulk, so the same bulk (volume for volume as you said) requires a 10% increase in sweetness but not in the bulk. And the synergy of mixing will provide that 10% and then some, so it would be more important to use the taste test than the numbers.

Geez, that was clear as mud!

WOW! That's D E E P.........
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Old 02-16-2007, 11:36 AM   #35
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Donna's Shuga~Blend

1/2 lb. Xylitol
1 lb. Erythritol
1 lb. Diabetisweet
1/4 C. SlimSweet by Trimedica
1/8 C. Stevia+
Donna here is where you loose me with this blend. Three items you measure by weight and the other two you measure by volume. So after combining all these ingredients this give you how many cups? And is that measured by volume or by weight?
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Old 02-16-2007, 11:47 AM   #36
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Donna here is where you loose me with this blend. Three items you measure by weight and the other two you measure by volume. So after combining all these ingredients this give you how many cups? And is that measured by volume or by weight?
Ohhhhhhhhhhh....I just knew you were going to catch me on that one. Thanks for keeping me honest .

I thought it might be easier for someone who had packages just to use the weight, but originally, I measured out the cups. According to my notes of the original recipe that I dug out just in case someone called me on this... ...here ya go:

1 1/4 Cups (20 TB or 1/2 lb.) Xylitol
2 1/3 Cups (38 TB or 1 lb.) Erythritol
2 1/3 Cups (38 TB or 1 lb.) Diabetisweet
1/4 Cup (4 TB) SlimSweet
1/8 Cup (2 TB) Stevia+

I suspect that the Erythritol and Diabetisweet measurements are actually 40 TB, but in the grand scheme of things, losing 2 TB here or there won't make a huge difference in the outcome.

Sorry for the confusion...:blush:
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:02 PM   #37
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Thank You Donna. That makes scaling this for experimenting much easier.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:11 PM   #38
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Thank You Donna. That makes scaling this for experimenting much easier.
I thought as much when you called me on my omissions. When I enter the nutrition info into my program, it requires that I add in the household measurement as well as the equivalent weight grams so I never gave the weight a whole lot of thought until I realized that it was extremely close to the weight of sugar for the same quantity.

BTW...I know that you have been doing some extensive testing with isomalt. Do you think that eliminating the Diabetisweet and using Isomalt with Sweet One would work better? Since the current blend costs out at around $10/lb., I'd be interested in trying to lessen that a bit. Don't get me wrong, I love the blend as it is and only use it in baking, which is infrequent so the blend isn't 'breaking the bank'. However, the cost adds up when running new recipes through the testing phase and so naturally, I'm interested in saving a little money! Any thoughts?
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:40 PM   #39
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As you may or may not know I have done quite a bit of experimenting with cooling effect and the control of it, so my first curiosity is to determine if your no cooling effect and mine are the same. At the same time I do not want to commit 5 cups of sweetener to find out that our taste buds differ as widely as they do with flours. Then I personally would like to get any Ace-K out of the mix since in my opinion it has a sweetening effect that completely overpowers the flavor of anything you make with it. The biggest drawback to that though is the size of the isomalt granules. Its introduction makes for a very uneven distribution of the sweeteners granular sizes.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:49 PM   #40
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You've already got plenty of bulk from the E, the D and the P...and that 90% for the E? That refers to the sweetness level not the bulk, so the same bulk (volume for volume as you said) requires a 10% increase in sweetness but not in the bulk. And the synergy of mixing will provide that 10% and then some, so it would be more important to use the taste test than the numbers.

Geez, that was clear as mud!
Oh my gosh, no! It was clear as day to me. And of course you're right. I hadn't thought about that. So erythritol is going to keep its bulk measure for measure. It's just not going to be sweet enough.

So if I mix it with, say, poly-d plus (poly-d sweetened with splenda) or not/sugar or guar gum, I'm going to have a sweetening problem, not a bulk problem. So at that point, the trick becomes keeping the bulk about the same cup for cup as sugar, while finding an intense sweetener that doesn't add any bulk. Am I getting this right?

(I realize you all have probably had this conversation ten thousand times before, and I have read all the threads, but it's seriously making me wish I studied chemistry in school instead of taking that advanced geology course.)
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:50 PM   #41
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OK...that makes sense. I do not know anything about isomalt, but having used Ace-k on occasion, I too find that it is intensely sweet. My thinking was that if these items were to replace the Diabetisweet in a "spread-out" version of the sweetener, it might be do-able. Oh well...initial interesting thought, but obviously impractical in application.

And yes...I know what you mean about paying for items that might not work. I have 1 1/2 bags of poly-d, a full unopened bag of WPI 5000 and 8000 each, and an unopened bag of oat fiber just sitting here with no practical use for me. I'll probably just hold onto it until I get tired of moving them around and then toss it in the trash. But hey...how would I know I would be so sensitive to the taste? Thank goodness I experimented to DEATH with the resistant wheat and corn starch, 'cause they're just about gone.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:52 PM   #42
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Molecular Gastronomeur

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Hey Jude...beginning to feel like a molecular gastronomeur??????
Now I know what I want to be when I grow up!
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:56 PM   #43
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Oh my gosh, no! It was clear as day to me. And of course you're right. I hadn't thought about that. So erythritol is going to keep its bulk measure for measure. It's just not going to be sweet enough.

So if I mix it with, say, poly-d plus (poly-d sweetened with splenda) or not/sugar or guar gum, I'm going to have a sweetening problem, not a bulk problem. So at that point, the trick becomes keeping the bulk about the same cup for cup as sugar, while finding an intense sweetener that doesn't add any bulk. Am I getting this right?
Yes...that pretty much sums up the real issue.

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Originally Posted by stephdray View Post
(I realize you all have probably had this conversation ten thousand times before, and I have read all the threads, but it's seriously making me wish I studied chemistry in school instead of taking that advanced geology course.)
ME TOO!!!! Although those extra math classes I took seem to come in really handy lately .
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:13 PM   #44
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Yes...you got me!

Based on the calories provided by the manufacturer, and the fact that my nutrition program does not count sugar alcohols, this is how I entered the info from the labels:

SlimSweet: 0 calories, 1 g. carb 1 g. fiber (they cancel each other)
Stevia+: 0 calories and everything is 0
Diabetisweet: 10 calories: 4 g carb, 1.5 g. fiber
Erythritol: 4 calories: 7 g carb, 6 g fiber
Xylitol: 12 calories: 6 g carb, 3 g fiber
Looks like the bulk of the calories and carbs are coming from the Xylitol. Which I don't have--I didn't buy it, because people said it had a worse cooling effect than erythritol and was not as low on the glycemic index.

What do you think Xylitol contributes to your mix?

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I do agree that if you play with the formula, you may be able to reduce the carbs even further, but I do have some concerns about the cooling affect if you increase the Erythritol too much. Splenda may be the way to go to counter that issue and maybe some NotSugar?????
I'm concerned about that too, and I was also thinking about gums like Not/Sugar as a bulking agent to counter-act it, and then a high concentration sweetener like stevia, splenda quick pack, or ace-k. (I have neither, but I suppose I could be willing to buy _one_ more.)

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I haven't played a whole bunch with the poly-d, but isn't there a concern that it might not blend well if it's not incorporated well into the blend?
My only poly-d experiments so far were both failures as I had no idea it was going to clump up like it did, and no amount of putting it through the food processor could get rid of all the clumps. So I am wary of it, but I think the fault was mine.

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Does this help give you better perspective?
Yes, you have been unbelievably helpful. I am so grateful to you! How kind of you to share your experiences with everyone, and even dig through your notes to find nutritional values. I really appreciate it.
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:13 PM   #45
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The biggest drawback to that though is the size of the isomalt granules. Its introduction makes for a very uneven distribution of the sweeteners granular sizes.
Just to show the differences.

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:34 PM   #46
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OMG Kevin

You are too cool with the visual demonstration. Wow.

Is that last item Diabetisweet, or Splenda?

Also, isn't Diabetisweet made up of Isomalt? I don't recall the grains being that fat, but now I have to go back and look.
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:38 PM   #47
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Kevin: I had NO idea that the granules were that big!!!!! WOW! For some odd reason, I had thought the particules were like powdered sugar...well, so much for THAT theory!!!!

Steph: The reason I included Xylitol in the mix is because I already had it. My DH is diabetic and he prefers to use it in his coffee rather than artificial sweeteners like Splenda. It also adds perfect bulk and (even though it is touted as being slighter sweeter than sugar) I like that it gives a 1:1 conversion, essentially acting EXACTLY like sugar...well, except for laxation issues, which I've addressed by using it in conjunction with other sweeteners.

With that said, why couldn't you sub an equal amount of Erythritol for the Xylitol and then raise the intense sweeteners a bit? I'm not sure how this would change the 'cooling affect', but it might be worth exploring, especially if you incorporate some Splenda in the mix.
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:40 PM   #48
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Ok, I have a stevia question.

I have a brand of stevia called Sweet'n Natural that says it is 100% pure stevia. It is a 1 oz. bottle and has 1120 (25mg)servings = to 1120 tsp.

How does that compare to stevia plus? Anybody know?
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:48 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by stephdray View Post
You are too cool with the visual demonstration. Wow.

Is that last item Diabetisweet, or Splenda?
ds= Diabetisweet

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Kevin: I had NO idea that the granules were that big!!!!! WOW! For some odd reason, I had thought the particules were like powdered sugar...well, so much for THAT theory!!!!
donna the other concideration of swapping the isomalt for the Diabetisweet is you lose 60% sweetness on that swap as isomalt is only 40% that of sugar....the ace-k makes up the rest.
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Old 02-16-2007, 02:16 PM   #50
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Kevin: Do you have an equivalency chart on the bottle? Mine says that 2 TB = 1 C. of sugar. Does that help?
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Old 02-16-2007, 02:26 PM   #51
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Kevin: Do you have an equivalency chart on the bottle? Mine says that 2 TB = 1 C. of sugar. Does that help?
no.....

it says 1 25mg scoop(this is a tiny little scoop) = 1 tsp

oh well i guess I have to scoop out 48 scoops
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:06 PM   #52
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no.....

it says 1 25mg scoop(this is a tiny little scoop) = 1 tsp

oh well i guess I have to scoop out 48 scoops

ok this stuff is way more potent.

1/3 teaspoon= 1 cup
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:10 PM   #53
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Whoa...WAY more potent! Did you really count out all those teeny scoops???? And all in the quest for the "golden" sugar replacement...
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:18 PM   #54
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Whoa...WAY more potent! Did you really count out all those teeny scoops???? And all in the quest for the "golden" sugar replacement...
Yes I did, then I found some stevia on netrition that is the same strength.
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:48 PM   #55
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I use the NOW brand white stevia, and count 1/4 t as a cup....very close anyway. Usually I use 1/8 t of this with another sweeteners...sometimes 1/4 c xyltol and 1 pkt Sweet One for 1 cup.
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:54 PM   #56
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I was going to make DOnna's blend this weekend and realized I do not have stevia plus. Coulld I use regular granular stevia and just use a different amount, of it, or does that vary in concentration by brand like the liquid does? I thought I had granular stevia but I dont. One of my local stores sells it but I'm assuming it is regular granulated stevia and not the plus
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Old 02-16-2007, 04:26 PM   #57
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I was going to make DOnna's blend this weekend and realized I do not have stevia plus. Coulld I use regular granular stevia and just use a different amount, of it, or does that vary in concentration by brand like the liquid does? I thought I had granular stevia but I dont. One of my local stores sells it but I'm assuming it is regular granulated stevia and not the plus

Yummy:
In the original recipe, I am using enough Stevia product to equal about 1 cup of sugar so if you can determine the sweetness equivalency, then ANY type should work.
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Old 02-16-2007, 04:31 PM   #58
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Great, thanks Donna!
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:11 PM   #59
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For everyone who is going to mix up a batch of Donna's Shuga~Blend, Kevin has made a VERY important discovery as to why the blend does not have the cooling effect and it has to do with the brand of Stevia that is used.

So if you haven't made it up yet...STOP! Hopefully, Kevin will be along with his explanation.
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:12 PM   #60
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1 1/4 Cups (20 TB or 1/2 lb.) Xylitol
2 1/3 Cups (38 TB or 1 lb.) Erythritol
2 1/3 Cups (38 TB or 1 lb.) Diabetisweet
1/4 Cup (4 TB) SlimSweet
1/8 Cup (2 TB) Stevia+

I believe I now understand.....

I kept saying to myself there is nothing in Donna's mix to control the cooling effect from the crystallization of the Erythritol and Xylitol.
Then I started looking up stevia plus figuring I would have to get some because if I used the stong stevia that I have I will lose 1/8 cup volume.
Thats when I discovered the Plus in stevia plus was Inulin

Thats the crystallization control and without that inulin you got major double whamy cooling effect going on from both the Erythritol and Xylitol.

I would not try this blend with plain stevia without the plus(inulin) as you will have major cooling effect going on without it.
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