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Old 01-25-2007, 10:24 AM   #1
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Sourdough Saga, Chapter 3: Even Better Results

Yesterday was the third time I baked with my New England starter. I did some tweaking with proportions of resistant starch and wheat protein isolates and added some NotSugar. This bread is very, very good with a texture so close to HC bread that you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference. And, I promise you, there is NO funky carbalose or WPI taste! It makes great hamburger buns.

Do NOT be intimidated by sourdough starter. It's really easy to do. My New England starter came from FermentedTreasures.com and is a real winner. Yes, you must think ahead if you want to bake with sourdough since you will have to remove it from the fridge the day before, feed it in the morning, and then make the "sponge" the night before actually baking. This only takes a few extra minutes. If realistic texture, a good crust, and real flavor are what you're after, I think sourdough is well worth the little bit of extra time. My next projects with it are pizza crusts and bagels.

Sourdough Bread

1 cup active sourdough starter
1 to 1 1/4 cups filtered water
1 cup Carbalose
1/2 cup WPI8000
1/3 cup WPI5000

Mix well in a crockery bowl, cover with plastic wrap, and let sit overnight in a warm place - an oven with the light on is a good place. This is a very thick mixture. By morning, it will be light and bubbly.

Next day, add:

1 pkg. yeast dissolved in 1/4 cup warm water (110) with 1 teaspoon sugar
1 egg
1 T soft butter
1 1/2 tsp. salt
2 tsp. baking powder
1/4 cup WPI 5000
1 T NotSugar (I think same amount of NotStarch would also be ok)
2/3 cup Resistant Wheat Starch
2 T oat fiber

Knead with dough hook about 4 minutes. Dough should come together. It will be soft but not overly sticky. You may need to add 1-2 teaspoons more oat fiber and/or RWS.
I use a more narrow bread pan, so I take about one quarter of the dough and form into 4 hamburger buns. Use rest of dough to make a loaf. Grease pans well. Cover with plastic wrap and let rise till double. Bread will reach top of pan. Bake in a preheated 400 degree oven for 15 minutes. Lower temperature to 350 and bake another 25 minutes or till as golden brown as you like. Check buns before this as they will be done sooner.
This bread has roughly 5 carbs per slice or 10 per bun. I think it may acutally be somewhat lower than this due to the fermentation process.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1Bread.JPG (37.2 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg aRolls.JPG (42.6 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg aSlice.JPG (44.2 KB, 57 views)
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Old 01-25-2007, 10:40 AM   #2
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This may actually be the impetus to me ordering resistant wheat starch and WPI 8000! I have everything else.

Sourdough is my ONLY throwback to "things I still love and don't usually eat on my LC WOL" - thanks for your experiments! Can't wait to try this!
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Old 01-25-2007, 10:47 AM   #3
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Looks great! Thanks for sharing the results all your hard work.
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Old 01-25-2007, 11:07 AM   #4
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The bread and buns look great Ginny. I decided to sit back and watch you for awhile before ordering a starter. Knowing me I might have a hard time not getting carried away with making sourdough.
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Old 01-25-2007, 11:18 AM   #5
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Well, Kevin...

...get carried away! Would love to see what else can be done with this. I met up with TaterHead and gave her some starter so she'll be having some results soon, too.

Ginny
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Old 01-25-2007, 11:58 AM   #6
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Hey guys,

Yes I met Ginny for the first time in person on Tuesday, we had fun time talking the lowcarb talk, she is even prettier in person then her picture. She then invited me over to watch her make this sourdough bread, so I went over to her house yesterday and we baked bread. It was so close to real tasting I can't wait to bake my batch tonight.

I have never used starters or sponges dough stuff so this I was afraid of doing it. It is so easy though, no big deal at all. Just mix up the starter according to directions and let it sit in oven with light on for several hours while it does it's thing. It gets all bubbly in the mason jar. I got home from Ginny's at about 4:45, put the starter in the oven with the light on and watched TV till around 9:30. I then added the ingredients for the sponge part, put that in the oven with light on and went to bed. It is still in the oven now, I plan on making the bread this afternoon to go with my Tweaked version of LindaSue's potato leek soup. Hubby really liked the rolls Ginny sent me home with. It was fun watching her do this bread, she really knows how to make bread

Debbie....
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Old 01-25-2007, 05:44 PM   #7
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Can you post the nutritional information on this recipe? Is the starter made with regular flour? The bread looks delicious.
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Old 01-25-2007, 05:54 PM   #8
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I ordered the starter and last week I made the version Ginny had on the other thread. Great bread! Maybe too good, I have portion control problems. I had never made sourdough before, but I followed the directions and it was easy. I like a crisp crust so I sprayed the inside of the oven with water a couple of times while it was baking. The crust was fantastic.
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Old 01-25-2007, 08:26 PM   #9
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Where do you buy the starter?
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Old 01-26-2007, 08:44 AM   #10
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A few answers...

About the nutritional information, I don't have a program to figure it out and would have to do it by hand. A rough estimate, by Kevin (thanks!), is that each slice is about 5 carbs or 10 carbs per bun. I believe it is actually a bit lower than this due to the fermentation process of the overnight sourdough sponge that "eats up" some of the carbs. Also, Kevin figured this when I had made a loaf of the bread - but now, I'm getting some buns out of it, too, so that increases yield without much of an increase in ingredients, giving fewer carbs per serving. Calorie count couldn't be very high, given the ingredients; I'd guess no more than 90 per serving. Protein should higher certainly than regular bread. Maybe someone with Mastercook or ****** could run the recipe through.

Deb, thanks for the compliments! I know you had some issues yesterday with dough being too sticky. Hope you got a decent product for your efforts. BTW, Taterhead has shared with me some of her tried and true, tweaked recipes. They're GREAT! You can count on Taterhead's recipes.

You can buy an excellent, excellent starter from FementedTreasures.com. I bought their New England starter because it was reputed to be very vigorous. Indeed it is! This is a much more reliable way to get a good starter than doing it from scratch on your own.Believe me, I know! I also sent for Carl's starter (just do a search on Carl's friends sourdough) and it came the other day. I am reconstituting it now, but, frankly, it's just not doing the nice, bubbly thing the FermentedTreasures NE starter does.

Yes, the starter is made with REGULAR flour. I use unbleached but that doesn't really matter. Yes, you continue to "feed" the starter with regular flour. You are adding about 1/2 cup regular flour to the recipe with the 1 cup starter. It is believed that some of the flour carbs are "eaten up" by the starter's microbes,but I can find no definitive information on how many. However, sourdough products are ACIDIC and this lowers their glycemic index considerably. The microbes also contribute to colon health - as do all fermented foods.

If you are interested in all this, you can find tons of information on the net about baking with sourdough, the glycemic index, and beneficial effects of fermented foods.

Sorry this is such a long post but I wanted to address the questions posed.

Ginny
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Old 01-26-2007, 11:41 AM   #11
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I do want to give this a try. . .I love sourdough. . .and I hope I can tolerate the higher carbs. . .

Ginny, do you think you could take a bit of your starter. . .and try feeding it with something. . .RWS or carbalose, VWG or something. . .to see if you could lower the carbs. . .(or a mix of that with say flour?)

I would love to jump into the experimentation and tweaking. . .but I can't logistically now. . .

Thanks to anyone who might feel adventuresome. . .
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Old 01-26-2007, 04:14 PM   #12
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About food for the starter

Magnamater, I've wondered myself if I could lower the carb count by feeding the starter with WPI or resistant starch or carbalose. Problem is, the starter's little yeasties need starch as food. WPI and carbalose just don't have much starch to begin with so I'm afraid the microbes would die of starvation and take the starter with them. Resistant starch might provide more food for them, but I'm not enough of a food scientist to know if carbs in RS are metabolized in any way, shape, or form like they are in the human system. Maybe Jude could weigh in on this one.

In the meantime, maybe someone on the board with nutritional software could run the numbers on the recipe. I get 15 slices plus 4 buns (equivalent of another 8 slices).

If I'm feeling really adventurous sometime, I'll fiddle with a quarter-cup of starter and RS and see how it fares.

Ginny
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Old 01-26-2007, 04:36 PM   #13
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Ginny, Did you post your first experiments with recipes? (I see this is #3) I would greatly like to read thru them, as in the next month or so want to try the sour dough again.
Thanks,
Bette
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Old 01-26-2007, 04:40 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Bfranke View Post
Ginny, Did you post your first experiments with recipes? (I see this is #3) I would greatly like to read thru them, as in the next month or so want to try the sour dough again.
Thanks,
Bette
I think this started over in the white bread thread Bette.
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Old 01-26-2007, 04:52 PM   #15
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Thanks, Kevin, since I was not making white bread, I quit reading after the first several pages. I will take another look. I should have known that some good info would get tucked in there!!!!
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Old 01-26-2007, 07:37 PM   #16
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Bette, look on page 7...

...of the Simple White Bread thread. That's where I began posting results of my sourdough experiments - "chapters" 1 and 2

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Old 01-27-2007, 06:02 AM   #17
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Thanks Ginny, I read the whole thread last night. Guess I need to get some starter going agian. But, have to clean our the latest LC cookies first. Seems I can have only one type of extra food in the house at one time lately! But bread surely sounds good. (and the photos made it look so good)
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Old 01-28-2007, 01:50 PM   #18
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Ginny I want to say thanks for your experiments and your excellent posts. However, you have activated the Mad Scientist Gene in me that I try to keep under control! So I just now ordered the starter you suggested, and put in a Netrition order. The thought of a good, sourdough hamburger bun...... wow! Can't wait to try this. Thanks..... Joan
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Old 01-28-2007, 02:07 PM   #19
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can't wait to get all the stuff to make some of these bread, all the picture make my mouth water..... yum
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Old 01-28-2007, 04:38 PM   #20
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Ginny, I have Carl's Starter. I typed up quite a long ditty, but it is gone. Anyway, I started it with just 1/8 c spring water, after 5 min or so, added 1/4 c flour and 1/4 c spring water. It bubbled but was not truly active. That was yesterday.
This morning, I added 1/8 c of water before I went to church. When I came home, I added 1/2 c flour and 1/2 c of water. I have had to watch it carefully all day, as it wanted to bubble over the sides of the jar! So this evening, I put it into a larger container, added another 1/2 cup each flour and water and left it to bubble. I want enough to make Crumpets this week. Then next week it should be sour enough to make bread.
I am so happy to be trying sour dough again.
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Old 01-29-2007, 09:07 AM   #21
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My experience with "Carl"

I have both Fermented Treasures New England starter and Carl's. I followed the instructions, too, and found it simply took longer to get Carl's going. I think it's fine now after three days of feeding, but I haven't baked with it yet. The NE one got going very quickly and seems very strong. I'll post results if (and that's still "if" at this point) I decide to bake LC with Carl's.

I'm glad you're happy to be using the sourdough - me, too! I was sad to think that after years of bread baking, I'd no longer be able to with this WOE. It was always a pleasant activity for me. With all the new LC flour sub products out there now, we have plenty to experiment with!

Ginny
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Old 01-30-2007, 07:53 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexsreine View Post
Magnamater, I've wondered myself if I could lower the carb count by feeding the starter with WPI or resistant starch or carbalose. Problem is, the starter's little yeasties need starch as food. WPI and carbalose just don't have much starch to begin with so I'm afraid the microbes would die of starvation and take the starter with them. Resistant starch might provide more food for them, but I'm not enough of a food scientist to know if carbs in RS are metabolized in any way, shape, or form like they are in the human system. Maybe Jude could weigh in on this one.
Sorry, y'all, I've been distracted and missed this thread! As for the Resistant Starch, it's supposed to be @ 70% soluble/other fiber, in my mind that means there's at least 30% starch in there for the beasties. I've been meaning to get going on some starters, just haven't done it yet. VWG is @ 20% (?) depending on your brand, but it may have too much protein. I wouldn't think the Oat Fiber or the WhtPI is a good candidate, though. Way too much protein (and different beasties eat protein, they may be toxic). Yep, try this with RWS only, I'd say.

For those of you who have the experiments running amok in their kitchens, this is one thing you can do (just like in yogurt). "siphon off" just a bit of the working starter batch that's in danger of overflowing its jar, which is chock full of living beasties and will do fine without a few, and start a fresh batch in another separate (labelled ) jar with some RWS. What would be REALLY nice would be to start a little bitty batch at the same time as a 'regular' flour batch, and take notes...see if it needs feeding more often and whatnot...

I have a bag of mixed non-wheat flours (millet, spelt, oat, kamut, etc.) that I intend to use for a starter sometime, as well. Just haven't got to it. Natch. :blush:

By the way, did y'all see Betty's post re the No Knead Bread? There's a VERY good illustration of how the very first sourdoughs were made, and notice. That's a very long slow proof, and makes the really good quality and healthy (high lactic acid) bread.

Fascinating stuff.

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Old 01-31-2007, 01:18 PM   #23
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Hey, Jude...

so glad you've weighed in on the sourdough experiments. I've looked on the net for hours, but can find little to nothing on carbs being used up during the fermentation process. It is logical that that is what happens, meaning the 1 cup of sourdough used in the recipe is not as damaging as one might think, but I have found no scientific sources elaborating on this. Since you are the resident food scientist, maybe you know of some studies?

Yes, I saw the No-Knead post. I took one of my sourdough batches of bread this morning and did the LeCreuset baking method. It is in the oven as I type...Will post the results later.

Ginny
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Old 01-31-2007, 01:24 PM   #24
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Ginny,

I was looking longingly at that no knead site. Looked so good. Please do post the results of what is in your oven. And tell how you did it for us novice bakers who may be afraid to try something without specific instructions. Like, did you just take the starter, make the sponge, then add other stuff and then turn onto parchment, plop in bowl and bake?
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Old 01-31-2007, 11:36 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexsreine View Post
so glad you've weighed in on the sourdough experiments. I've looked on the net for hours, but can find little to nothing on carbs being used up during the fermentation process. It is logical that that is what happens, meaning the 1 cup of sourdough used in the recipe is not as damaging as one might think, but I have found no scientific sources elaborating on this. Since you are the resident food scientist, maybe you know of some studies?
Ginny
Actually, I would VERY much like to hear from Scott123 on this stuff as well (and I WISH I was a food scientist, but I'm really a cook/geek with a head full of trivia and scientific method -- but thanks!).

And sadly, no, I have not yet encountered ANY indication of any lab testing of just how much carb is broken down and "eaten" by the yeast/critters in the proofing process...though I keep my eyes peeled for just such stuff...lab testing is expensive and each loaf/batch/process probably differs to a large extent, depending on how long/how sour that given batch is and how many carbs went into it in the first place (2 HUGE variables right there). The sourness is a sort of 2nd-hand indicator of lots of digestive activity...just not that accurate unless you have a whole bunch of experiments at hand to lab test and average... etc. etc. etc. Sigh.

It's a labour of love (and money) for some deep-pocketed bread baker out there somewhere...

Me, for the forseeable future, I'm just going to -- eventually -- track along and make (test) starters in various formats where I can, let them proof until they've gone as far as they seem able, and then make some assumptions about the end product bread that it is relatively low carb (maintenance) only and healthier because of the high lactic acid content.

BUT (and ha ha! this is a big one) I can't for now because I have to avoid grains for a while, months. Have to. (no strength of will with fresh baked breads of any kind). Dammit.

So I'll cheer and critique from the sidelines for a while and watch y'all intently ...


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Old 02-01-2007, 05:58 AM   #26
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Ah, Jude,
Quote:
(no strength of will with fresh baked breads of any kind). Dammit.
I have to put up my 'playthings' today too. Just had Sour Dough Pancakes. And still have a whole loaf of bread. And cookies from last week. And a climbing scale.

Actually, I think this is what happened with my last batch of starter. I put it up, for the same reasons...and then when I wanted it again, it had died on me.

Bette
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Old 02-01-2007, 08:35 AM   #27
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Thanks, Jude...

...for your comments. Heck, if you haven't seen any studies on the fermentation/carb reduction issue, then I know there probably aren't any out there! About all I could find were studies documenting the lower glycemic index of fermented breads. Oh well. No deep pockets here for lab testing... I probably won't be doing any more sourdough for at least a week. I made two batches yesterday and now have plenty of bread-y things in the freezer - and there are only two of us eating these things! Will be waiting for others to do things like Bette has. Bette, did you post your sourdough pancake recipe? We're not pancake lovers, but DH likes his waffles and maybe the same recipe would work. Thanks!

Ginny
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Old 02-01-2007, 08:43 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexsreine View Post
Yes, I saw the No-Knead post. I took one of my sourdough batches of bread this morning and did the LeCreuset baking method. It is in the oven as I type...Will post the results later.

Ginny
Ginny, How did this loaf turn out and did go through the kneading process and just bake as in no knead, or did you let it rise for the 24 hours and process as no knead bread?

Jeanne
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Old 02-01-2007, 09:33 AM   #29
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Ahh. . .this thread reminds me of childhood when my DM had a starter. . .and made everything from pancakes to cornbread, biscuits included, and yep, it was delish!!!

BTW, the sour dough cornbread could be engineered, and was, natch, to die for. . .with soy grits and nut flours, plus other lc ingredients. It was my very favorite back then of sourdough recipes.

Just giving those of you out there with starters some ideas. . .
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Old 02-01-2007, 01:23 PM   #30
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Flours like Carbalose and the resistant wheat starch DO have starch, or course, just starch that is mostly undigestible by US--which leaves OPEN the question of whether it can be eaten by yeast critters. I believe that in the past Scott123 has asserted that it can be. (And otherwise why would low carb yeast breads that have no added sugar rise?)
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