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Old 10-24-2006, 03:54 PM   #1
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Need Help for 'Chocolate Snacking Cake' Conversion

I mentioned in another thread that I'm having problems converting this recipe when I use a polyd-based sweetener combo.
Here's the original recipe. It's from The New Canadian Basics Cookbook, page 198. I loved this back in my pre-LC days because it's so simple.

1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour
1 cup granulated sugar
3 tbsp cocoa
1 tsp baking powder
1 tsp baking soda
1/2 tsp salt
1/3 cup vegetable oil
1 tbsp white vinegar
1 tsp vanilla extract
1 cup warm water
1/2 cup chopped walnuts (optional)

In mixing bowl, combine dry ingredients (except nuts); mix thoroughly. Add liquid ingredients; stir with whisk until blended. Add nuts (if using). Pour into lightly greased 8-inch square cake pan. Bake in 350F oven for 30 minutes or until tester comes out clean.
~~~~~~~~
I'm subbing 1/2 cup polyd, 2 tbsp erythritol, 2 tbsp isomalt/stevia, 16 drops Sweetzfree for the sugar and my all-purpose flour sub (Carbalose/Carbquik question) for the flour.
It comes out like thick syrupy "soup".
I thought it had even more sugar but I guess not. Anyway, I'm considering reducing the polyd to only 2 tbsp. This is the only recipe I'm trying to convert that has no eggs and a fair amount of water in it. Everything else I've converted generally had eggs and milk (I use soy) instead of water and my subs work out very well.

Last edited by Bev-Ann; 10-24-2006 at 04:02 PM..
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Old 10-24-2006, 04:03 PM   #2
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I think this is a case of nothing to glue it all together. Your flour is a lot of fiber, not much glue, and no eggs. I don't think it has anything to do with the polydextrose, or sweeteners. I wonder about trying a different flour blend, then maybe ending up with half of yours and half another, like Carbquick or Carbalose or Jena Marie Cake flour. If you don't have any of the other flours, how about trying with 2/3 reg flour, 1/3 yours.....in half recipe amunts to try. If that works, try 1/2 / 1/2, and so on till you get as close as you can to all your yours. Or, how about adding an egg?
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Old 10-24-2006, 04:39 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bfranke View Post
I think this is a case of nothing to glue it all together. Your flour is a lot of fiber, not much glue, and no eggs. I don't think it has anything to do with the polydextrose, or sweeteners.
Scott thought it might be my flour sub too but the fibres in it are almost all soluble, meaning they absorb water. But just to be sure, I did a little experiment. I mixed 1 1/2 tbsp of my flour sub with 1 tbsp warm water (same proportions as the cake recipe). It immediately turned to a thick paste. So I don't think it's the flour sub.
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Old 10-24-2006, 08:15 PM   #4
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Sorry...but I have to agree with Bette. It doesn't appear that your flour sub has much "structure" to it. In other words, it has plenty of elasticity, but nothing to hold up the finished product once it rises which is how regular cake flour works. The sweetener combo you're using has plenty of bulk to carry off like regular sugar and since there are no other liquid ingredients, it simply MUST be the flour sub.

I make my own flour sub also, and it took me a long time to come up with one that would hold up in my muffin and cake recipes.
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Old 10-25-2006, 04:55 AM   #5
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Sorry...but I have to agree with Bette. It doesn't appear that your flour sub has much "structure" to it. In other words, it has plenty of elasticity, but nothing to hold up the finished product once it rises which is how regular cake flour works. The sweetener combo you're using has plenty of bulk to carry off like regular sugar and since there are no other liquid ingredients, it simply MUST be the flour sub.

I make my own flour sub also, and it took me a long time to come up with one that would hold up in my muffin and cake recipes.
My flour sub holds up in every recipe except this one. Would you mind sharing yours?
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:00 AM   #6
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I completely acknowledge your frustration about how your sub works in every recipe except this one. Ughh...that is so infuriating!!! My flour sub is a bit more carby than yours by the looks of your ingredients, but I'm on a more moderate program and I don't usually 'overuse' it. I formulated it for use specifically in a muffin recipe that fits my macro requirement for carbs/protein/fats and allows me to eat baked treats without worrying about them being too carby (like most treats are.) Anyway...here is the formula:

Donna’s Flour~Blend
1/2 C. Oat Flour
1/2 C. Unbleached All Purpose Flour
1/2 C. Vital Wheat Gluten
1/2 C. Whole Wheat Pastry Flour
1/2 C. Whey Protein Powder
1/2 C. Milk & Egg Protein Powder, MLO Brand
1 C. Ground Flax Seed

Mix all ingredients together in large bowl. Store in refrigerator.

Per ˝ cup serving:
Cals: 250
Carb: 22g
Fiber: 6g
Pro: 30g
Fat: 6g

Due to the lighter 'nature' of this blend, use approx. 1 1/4 cups of the Flour~Blend for every cup of regular flour called for in the recipe. But this could vary by recipe too.

The balance of elasticity to starch is what allows this flour blend to work nicely for me. When subbing this, I would recommend that you NOT overwork the batter and that you check your finished product a bit sooner than the time indicated. In most cases, you are checking for 'light spring' and 'nice color' as opposed to the dry toothpick test.

Bev-Ann, you might want to just make up a small batch to see how it works for this particular application. If you don't have the Milk & Egg Protein Powder, just use regular whey protein powder. Also, if don't like using regular all-purpose flour, just sub regular whole wheat (NOT more whole wheat pastry flour however!) And finally, are you sure that this recipe doesn't have an egg in it?

I hope this helps you out.
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:38 AM   #7
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Here was my stab at this cake:

3/4 cups almond flour
3/4 cups wheat protein isolate 5000
2 T. isomalt
2 t. granular erythritol
1 t. + 1 T. not/Sugar
1/4 t. sweetzfree
3 T. Hershey's cocoa Special Dark
1 tsp baking powder
1/2 tsp salt
2 T. vegetable oil
1 tsp vanilla extract
1 egg
1 cup chocolate almond breeze

Mix dry.
Mix Wet.
Wisk wet into dry.
Pour into foil lined 8 X 8 baking dish.

Bake in a 350 oven 35 to 40 min until toothpick comes out clean.

9 servings at 2 carbs each.


Last edited by Kevinpa; 10-25-2006 at 08:50 AM..
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevinpa View Post
Here was my stab at this cake:

3/4 cups almond flour
3/4 cups wheat protein isolate 5000
2 T. isomalt
2 t. granular erythritol
1 t. + 1 T. not/Sugar
3 T. Hershey's cocoa Special Dark
1 tsp baking powder
1/2 tsp salt
2 T. vegetable oil
1 tsp vanilla extract
1 cup chocolate almond breeze
Kevin, I appreciate your efforts.
Interesting. So, you basically left out the polyd and vinegar, and changed the water to a milk sub. I was thinking of trying something very similar. I wasn't going to leave out the polyd, just reduce it significantly. And I was going to replace the water with soy milk that had the vinegar added to it first, like making soured milk (BTW, this works beautifully with soy milk; it gets quite thick). Or reduce the oil to a couple of tbsp like you did and replace the water/vinegar with yogurt.
Yours looks like very yummy brownies. The original recipe rises about double that size so it isn't so dense.
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:15 AM   #9
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If I were to do it again I would omit the oil all together and double the baking powder. As it is the oil makes it too wet and a bit greasy.
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:42 AM   #10
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Quote:
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If I were to do it again I would omit the oil all together and double the baking powder. As it is the oil makes it too wet and a bit greasy.
I did notice you left out the baking soda so maybe doubling the baking powder would help it rise more.
The greasiness could be because you used almond flour. There's a lot of oil in there already.
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Old 10-25-2006, 09:48 AM   #11
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The greasiness could be because you used almond flour.
I doubt that, I have other almond flour recipes that are not greasy with oil in them.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:01 AM   #12
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Bev-Ann, in the peanut brittle thread you said:

Quote:
I've got a Chocolate Snacking Cake recipe that calls for 1 1/2 cups of sugar
Is this the recipe you were referring to? Did you scale the other ingredients down to make it 1 cup sugar?

The other recipes you had success converting with your flour sub... what were they? Have you ever used your mix for converting a cake recipe?

How often do you make up a batch of your flour sub? Do you scoop the items into your measuring cup or spoon them? What type of WPI are you using? Are you purchasing the ingredients from the same vendor?
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Old 10-25-2006, 11:58 AM   #13
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Quote:
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Bev-Ann, in the peanut brittle thread you said:

Is this the recipe you were referring to? Did you scale the other ingredients down to make it 1 cup sugar?

The other recipes you had success converting with your flour sub... what were they? Have you ever used your mix for converting a cake recipe?

How often do you make up a batch of your flour sub? Do you scoop the items into your measuring cup or spoon them? What type of WPI are you using? Are you purchasing the ingredients from the same vendor?
Yes, this is it. I mentioned above that I had thought it was 1 1/2 cups sugar sub, but I was mistaken.
I use my flour sub for cookies, cakes other than this one and muffins/quickbreads. Everything comes out better than the high-carb versions. In most cases the muffins/quickbreads and cakes rise higher, the cookies are more tender, etc. This is the only recipe I'm having problems with so far. But it's also the only one that has no eggs or some kind of dairy ingredient (I sub soy milk).
I make up a 7-cup batch of my flour sub and store it in the freezer. I use the scoop and level-with-a-knife method of measurement.
The WPI and oat fibre are whatever Honeyville was selling a year ago. It doesn't say anything other than Wheat Protein Isolate on the label. Everything else comes from my favourite natural foods grocery store where I live.

Again, this is the ONLY recipe I'm having trouble with.
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Old 10-26-2006, 09:59 AM   #14
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Quote:
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I doubt that, I have other almond flour recipes that are not greasy with oil in them.
Yes, but they probably have some type of emulsifier like eggs in them. There are no emulsifiers in this one.
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Old 10-26-2006, 10:43 AM   #15
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Yes, but they probably have some type of emulsifier like eggs in them. There are no emulsifiers in this one.
I did have an egg in mine.
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Old 10-26-2006, 11:17 AM   #16
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I did have an egg in mine.
Oops, I missed that somehow. Sorry.
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Old 10-27-2006, 02:15 AM   #17
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Just a quick comment in passing, as I take notes for experimentation in my kitchen:

I have to agree (off the top of my head) with some other posters, there seems to be no real protein binder of the sort to allow a matrix to form (replacing the starch/protein combo of flour) or to emulsify, in your blend, in this particular dairyless and eggless recipe (e.g. coconut flour works not at all without eggs and lots of 'em, 1 per oz, IIRC).

The high fiber ingredients do of course absorb water, but they don't let go of it nearly as well as starch in its change of state/expansion while cooking. Ergo, soupiness.

That being said, I haven't actually taken a crack at this recipe yet. Am tracking with fascination, though.

? 1 : in reading thru this thread, I'm not clear, but have you made this recipe LC successfully without the PDX and with your flour blend, and the PDX is the only change you're making at this time? Doesn't seem so, but again, I'm not clear on this.
? 2 : have you reduced the amount of water to just what's required to get a stirrable batter?

[COLOR="Blue"]It comes out like thick syrupy "soup"[/COLOR] -- before or after baking ? (sorry, but just in case, thought I'd ask
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Old 10-27-2006, 02:21 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bev-Ann View Post
... But it's also the only one that has no eggs or some kind of dairy ingredient (I sub soy milk)...The WPI and oat fibre are whatever Honeyville was selling a year ago. It doesn't say anything other than Wheat Protein Isolate on the label...
That would likely be the WheatPI 8000, then. The 5000 (more "pastry" style with short strands) came out second as an available product, requiring label differentiation.
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Old 10-27-2006, 04:02 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theislandgirl View Post
Just a quick comment in passing, as I take notes for experimentation in my kitchen:

I have to agree (off the top of my head) with some other posters, there seems to be no real protein binder of the sort to allow a matrix to form (replacing the starch/protein combo of flour) or to emulsify, in your blend, in this particular dairyless and eggless recipe (e.g. coconut flour works not at all without eggs and lots of 'em, 1 per oz, IIRC).
There's a lot of protein in my blend from the WPI and the VWG. It's quite a bit higher than all-purpose flour at 21g/cup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theislandgirl View Post
? 1 : in reading thru this thread, I'm not clear, but have you made this recipe LC successfully without the PDX and with your flour blend, and the PDX is the only change you're making at this time? Doesn't seem so, but again, I'm not clear on this.
I made it twice without any modifications. I thought I might have measured something wrong the first time so tried again but got the same result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theislandgirl View Post
? 2 : have you reduced the amount of water to just what's required to get a stirrable batter?
No, I haven't tried that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theislandgirl View Post
[COLOR="Blue"]It comes out like thick syrupy "soup"[/COLOR] -- before or after baking ? (sorry, but just in case, thought I'd ask
After baking. Once it cools completely, it's a very chewy brownie. But that's not what I was going for.

Last edited by Bev-Ann; 10-27-2006 at 04:08 AM..
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Old 10-27-2006, 07:06 AM   #20
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I was looking through my converted muffin recipes and found one that gave me the same problems I'm having with this cake. I'd completely forgotten about it.
It's a recipe for cranberry muffins that uses cranberry sauce, not whole cranberries. And it does have eggs and dairy in it, no water. My cranberry sauce has polyd in it, then I used more in the sugar sub for the muffins. It came out the same "soup"-thing that this cake does.
I reduced the polyd in the muffin recipe by half and it worked. So this leads me to believe that the polyd is the culprit after all.
I'm going to try this cake recipe using only 2 tbsp of polyd. I'll let everyone know what happens.
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Old 10-27-2006, 09:07 AM   #21
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Success!!!

The only thing I changed was to reduce the polyd from 1/2 cup to 3 tbsp (was going to go with only 2 but decided to live dangerously) and it worked this time!
So, now I need one of our resident food chemists to figure out why for me.
Scott, any thoughts?

p.s. to Jude: This is why I order a minimum of 30 pounds of polyd at a time. My experiments sometimes take a lot of tweaking before they work.

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Old 10-27-2006, 11:54 AM   #22
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Bev-Ann, there's not a chance in heck that less polyd will give you a thicker batter. Polyd absorbs moisture and increases viscosity. Try making it with 1/2 C. next - I'm certain it will still be perfect.

Why didn't it work the last time? Well, I hate to say it, but I think you made a mistake and either omitted an ingredient or had a mismeasurement. It happens to the best of us

Btw, I don't subscribe to the 50% less sugar = no impairment in baked goods premise. Whatever sugary texture you put in is what you get out. If you trim the textural sugar subs, the end product will be impaired. It won't be as gooey, chewy or moist. It also won't bake the same way. I know you're having supply issues with polyd and have no choice but to stretch what you have as long as possible, but I highly recommend making these textural sugar sub reductions a temporary measure, not a permanent one.
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Old 10-27-2006, 02:18 PM   #23
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Quote:
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Why didn't it work the last time? Well, I hate to say it, but I think you made a mistake and either omitted an ingredient or had a mismeasurement. It happens to the best of us
I thought perhaps I had done that after the first trial, but my second trial cam out with exactly the same result. This was my third attempt.
In my two failed attempts, the batter was thick before it was baked. It was during the baking process that something happened to it.
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Old 10-27-2006, 06:14 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bev-Ann View Post
I thought perhaps I had done that after the first trial, but my second trial cam out with exactly the same result. This was my third attempt.
In my two failed attempts, the batter was thick before it was baked. It was during the baking process that something happened to it.
Please be patient with me; more questions vis a vis your failed experiments:
  • have you calibrated/checked your oven thermometer? I always do...
  • did you increase the baking time? pdx, if I remember correctly, requires longer slower baking to ensure doneness (don't know why I didn't remember this before).

Glad "we" are getting there!
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Old 10-27-2006, 08:22 PM   #25
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Please be patient with me; more questions vis a vis your failed experiments:
  • have you calibrated/checked your oven thermometer? I always do...
  • did you increase the baking time? pdx, if I remember correctly, requires longer slower baking to ensure doneness (don't know why I didn't remember this before).

Glad "we" are getting there!
I'm pretty much satisfied that by reducing the polyd, I got what I was going for. As I've stated before, this was the only cake recipe I have tried that wasn't working. It was also the only one that didn't have eggs or dairy. I'm not going to worry too much more about why it worked at this point. I'll just file the fact that a recipe that has only water and oil as the liquid needs to have the polyd reduced and move on to my next experiment.
Thanks for everyone's help with this!
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Old 10-27-2006, 08:27 PM   #26
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...
So, now I need one of our resident food chemists to figure out why for me.
....
Sooooo, I've still got my teeth in this one, which is why I continue to question...please bear with me and help me out, Bev-Ann?

Scott (and Kevin?), either of you remember the many iterations of somebody's pumpkin dump cake in the cast-iron pan, in the early PDX days? I seem to recall there were a number of temperature and especially duration adjustments on this one to get it done in the middle...also a high-moisture recipe. Validate?

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Old 10-27-2006, 08:39 PM   #27
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Sooooo, I've still got my teeth in this one, which is why I continue to question...please bear with me and help me out, Bev-Ann?
Go for it, but I doubt I'll have much more to contribute to the discussion.

To answer your last questions, no I haven't calibrated my oven temp but I'm not having problems with any other recipes. And my flour blend browns quickly so I can't increase the time if it's required for the polyd.

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Old 10-28-2006, 01:14 AM   #28
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Ok, very interesting....

I've made your recipe as is, and ended up cooking it at 325F for 65M; the edges came out nice and chewy/crispy/sugary, but the center is still fairly soft and structureless. Tasty, isn't it?


* Exported from MasterCook *

Chocolate Snacking Cake, Bev-Ann's

Recipe By : Judi [IslandGirl]
Serving Size : 0 Preparation Time :0:00
Categories : Cakes, Icings & Pies Muffins
Nuts & Seeds Vegan

Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method
-------- ------------ --------------------------------
DRY:
1 1/2 cups Flour Substitute, Bev-Ann's All Purpose
1/2 cup Polydextrose -- 88g
2 tablespoons Erythritol crystals -- 30g
2 tablespoons sweetener, DiabetiSweet White Sugar -- 25g, isomalt+
3 tablespoons cocoa powder, unsw, Dutch Process -- 18g
1 teaspoon baking powder -- 4g
1 teaspoon baking soda -- 8g
1/2 teaspoon salt -- 3g
WET:
3/8 teaspoon sweetener, Liquid Splenda 'Syrup Base' -- @= 1/4 c
1/3 cup olive oil
1 tablespoon white vinegar
1 teaspoon pure vanilla extract
1 cup warm water

In mixing bowl, combine dry ingredients; mix thoroughly. Add liquid ingredients; stir with whisk until blended. (add nuts, if using). Pour into lightly greased 8" square cake pan.

**Bake at 350F for 30M or until tester comes out clean.

Description: "experimental ..."
Source: "original recipe from Bev-Ann Hudema"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Per Serving (excluding unknown items): 1048 Calories; 86g Fat (47.5% calories from fat); 28g Protein; 186g Carbohydrate; 135g Dietary Fiber; 0mg Cholesterol; 3031mg Sodium. Exchanges: 1 1/2 Grain(Starch); 3 Lean Meat; 17 1/2 Fat; 1 1/2 Other Carbohydrates.

NOTES : 2006-10-27
Whole Recipe: 1048 Calories; 86g Fat (47.5% calories from fat); 28g Protein; 186g Carbohydrate; 135g Dietary Fiber; 0mg Cholesterol; 3031mg Sodium. Exchanges: 1 1/2 Grain(Starch); 3 Lean Meat; 17 1/2 Fat; 1 1/2 Other Carbohydrates.
** 325F, 65M - still pretty moist in center, don't hold together (warm), edges crisp/chewy though.




Last edited by theislandgirl; 10-28-2006 at 01:17 AM..
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Old 10-28-2006, 06:41 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theislandgirl View Post
Ok, very interesting....

I've made your recipe as is, and ended up cooking it at 325F for 65M; the edges came out nice and chewy/crispy/sugary, but the center is still fairly soft and structureless. Tasty, isn't it?
That's exactly what happened on my first two attempts, but yes, the edges are very yummy!
My successful attempt came out looking like the pic Kevin posted, except it rose maybe 3/4 more in volume than his.

Did I read your post right...you used my flour sub too? If so, I'd be very interested to hear what you think of it in some other recipe like a basic muffin/quick bread. It works beautifully for me, but I'd like to have it validated by someone else.

Last edited by Bev-Ann; 10-28-2006 at 06:53 AM..
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Old 10-28-2006, 07:26 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bev-Ann View Post
I thought perhaps I had done that after the first trial, but my second trial cam out with exactly the same result. This was my third attempt.
In my two failed attempts, the batter was thick before it was baked. It was during the baking process that something happened to it.
Whoops, sorry, I misunderstood your original posts.

I think it's a combination of two things. First,this recipe, because of the lack of eggs, may test the limits of your flour sub- more so than the other recipes that you were able to successfully convert. Second, the polyd is exacerbating the problem by increasing the temp the cake sets at. Polyd cakes, unless the baking temp/time is lowered/extended, are going to be on the raw side in the middle.

Now, I know Jude lowered/extended the baking time on hers and still had an issue with underdoneness, but I still think lowering the temp even further and tweaking the flour sub will help.

Overbulking (combining large amounts of polyd with other textural sugar subs such as isomalt or erythritol) can produce very raw very gooey, almost candy-ish results that never really set correctly, but I don't see this occurring here.

Jude, the recipe you're thinking of is Aunt Ruth's Pecan Cake.

Last edited by scott123; 10-28-2006 at 07:27 AM..
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