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Old 10-19-2006, 02:45 AM   #1
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E Question for Scott

A person has a recipe they are converting to low carb all mixed and the texture and sweetness is just about perfect accept for 1 thing........there is a slight cooling effect from the E that needs to be removed to make it just right. How can the cooling effect be nullified with the least impact on texture and sweetness or is that a longshot?
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Old 10-19-2006, 06:27 AM   #2
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Question from one thorough chef to another-speaking their own language.

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Old 10-19-2006, 06:57 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevinpa View Post
A person has a recipe they are converting to low carb all mixed and the texture and sweetness is just about perfect accept for 1 thing........there is a slight cooling effect from the E that needs to be removed to make it just right. How can the cooling effect be nullified with the least impact on texture and sweetness or is that a longshot?

I'm glad we get your recipes when they're done!
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Old 10-19-2006, 08:28 AM   #4
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Can't wait to get Scott's answer... my money is on "longshot" at this point.
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Old 10-19-2006, 01:00 PM   #5
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Kevin, if you're getting a cooling effect from the E, it's because the E is not entirely dissolved. Dissolved erythritol has no cooling effect. One of two things is happening. Either

1. The erythritol isn't dissolving (not enough heat)

or, more likely

2. The erythritol is dissolving, but the concentration in the final baked good is so high that the erythritol re-crystallizes as it cools.

In 5th grade science class, we added a lot of sugar to water, boiled it, watched the sugar dissolve, then cooled it. As the solution cooled, sugar crystals would form/precipitate out. The greater the concentration of sugar, the more crystallization would occur. Anyone who's ever made rock candy has a basic understanding of sugar re-crystallization. Erythritol displays this phenomenon times ten. Keeping sugar dissolved is far easier than keeping erythritol dissolved. Re-crystallization can be prevented a few ways.

Decreasing the amount of erythritol

The less erythritol you have in a baked good, the harder it is for erythritol molecules to find each other and form crystals.

Utilizing Crystallization Inhibitors

All non-erythritol ingredients in a recipe (fat, water, protein, fiber) are effective in keeping the erythritol particles apart, but particular ingredients are especially effective. Polyd is ideal in this role. The more polyd you can add to a recipe, the more e you can add without any re-crystallization worries. Polyd's huge molecular size and non-crystalline structure make it especially effective at 'cluttering' up a solution and preventing the erythritol from re-crystallizing. Inulin, if you have it, does the same thing. It's just like adding corn syrup to sugar based candy. The corn syrup is a powerful crystallization inhibitor.

Sugar alcohols won't form crystals with anything but themselves. In other words, a erythritol molecule won't form a crystal with an isomalt molecule. By swapping out some of the erythritol with another SA, you not only decrease the level of concentration, you add ingredients to the solution that get in the way of erythritol attempting to bond. You obviously want to be careful how much of another SA you add, as some SAs have re-crystallization/cooling issues of their own- xylitol, for instance.

Greater Dispersal of E

This is still a bit theoretical, but I believe that granular e may dissolve in such a way that the particles don't travel all that far in the final baked good. The closer they end up, the more likely they will join/recrystallize.

This is a big reason why I begin many of my recipes by making a polyd/erythritol syrup. Not only am I ensuring that the polyd won't clump by pre-dissolving everything, I'm dispersing the e as thoroughly as possible amongst the other ingredients.

Even though I've never been a fan of using powdered erythritol due to the inconsistent manner in which it measures, it may dissolve easier. More importantly, though, using powdered e might distribute the erythritol more thoroughly throughout the baked good, making re-crystallization more difficult.


So how does all this apply to your question Kevin? Well, thanks for bearing with me Here are the tweaks I would try, in order of difficulty:

1. If using granular E, switch to the same amount (by weight) of powdered E. Granular E = 232 grams/cup

OR

If your recipe contains water or milk, make a syrup with the e (and polyd, if using)

2. If you can tolerate them, sub out some of the E with the same amount of another SA:

Xylitol/maltitol/sorbitol (decrease the splenda in the recipe)
Isomalt (increase the splenda in the recipe)

3. If you can tolerate it, swap out some of the erythritol with the same amount of polyd (and add splenda).

4. The usual last resort for textural sugar subs, Not/sugar, is probably an effective crystallization inhibitor. Swap out some of the E with the appropriate amount of Not/sugar (and add some splenda).

Last edited by scott123; 10-19-2006 at 01:02 PM..
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Old 10-19-2006, 02:18 PM   #6
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is that why some products using certain sugar alcohols have an underlying "MINT" flavor that shouldnt be there???????

i kept thinking i was crazy.
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Old 10-19-2006, 03:46 PM   #7
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is that why some products using certain sugar alcohols have an underlying "MINT" flavor that shouldnt be there???????

i kept thinking i was crazy.
that is probably why. alot of the sugar free gum have it in them. they are advertised as "cool lemon, icy orange," etc. i dont care for them. after i have chewed the gum and have taken a drink, my throat feels too cool.
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Old 10-19-2006, 04:49 PM   #8
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So if I am reading you correctly Scott, once a recipe is set in place, you are pretty much stuck unless you can find a way to desolve the E completely and keep it apart without messing with texture or taste and that would be quite difficult.
Thanks......that is pretty much what I thought and started from scratch again.
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Old 10-19-2006, 05:34 PM   #9
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Kevin, I was wondering, if you could remake the recipe, without the cooling sweeteners.......and then mix the 2 batchs, if this might solve the problem, without deep sixing what you have already done.
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Old 10-19-2006, 06:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bfranke View Post
Kevin, I was wondering, if you could remake the recipe, without the cooling sweeteners.......and then mix the 2 batchs, if this might solve the problem, without deep sixing what you have already done.

No, it was too far into the process.
I never worry too much about any particular batch as long as I know what to do for the next attempt. The reason for the inquiry was not so much for ingredients but for the time invested to that point. I hated to take a couple hour set-back.
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Old 10-21-2006, 01:48 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevinpa View Post
So if I am reading you correctly Scott, once a recipe is set in place, you are pretty much stuck unless you can find a way to desolve the E completely and keep it apart without messing with texture or taste and that would be quite difficult.
Thanks......that is pretty much what I thought and started from scratch again.
Not exactly... if you're using granular E, swapping out powdered for granular isn't too hard. Swapping out isomalt for the e/adjusting the splenda isn't that tricky either. An isomalt sub will give you the exact same results without the cooling effect. When you get into polyd or not/sugar- those might require a complete overhaul of the recipe, since they have a tendency to change the chemistry pretty dramatically.

This is all based upon a heated/baked application, though. Erythritol has to be heated to dissolve. Without heat, you're stuck with the strange taste. The only solution there is to completely do over the recipe with a non cooling sugar sub such as isomalt.
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:21 AM   #12
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott123 View Post
Kevin, if you're getting a cooling effect from the E, it's because the E is not entirely dissolved. Dissolved erythritol has no cooling effect. One of two things is happening. Either

1. The erythritol isn't dissolving (not enough heat)

or, more likely

2. The erythritol is dissolving, but the concentration in the final baked good is so high that the erythritol re-crystallizes as it cools.

In 5th grade science class, we added a lot of sugar to water, boiled it, watched the sugar dissolve, then cooled it. As the solution cooled, sugar crystals would form/precipitate out. The greater the concentration of sugar, the more crystallization would occur. Anyone who's ever made rock candy has a basic understanding of sugar re-crystallization. Erythritol displays this phenomenon times ten. Keeping sugar dissolved is far easier than keeping erythritol dissolved. Re-crystallization can be prevented a few ways.

Decreasing the amount of erythritol

The less erythritol you have in a baked good, the harder it is for erythritol molecules to find each other and form crystals.

Utilizing Crystallization Inhibitors

All non-erythritol ingredients in a recipe (fat, water, protein, fiber) are effective in keeping the erythritol particles apart, but particular ingredients are especially effective. Polyd is ideal in this role. The more polyd you can add to a recipe, the more e you can add without any re-crystallization worries. Polyd's huge molecular size and non-crystalline structure make it especially effective at 'cluttering' up a solution and preventing the erythritol from re-crystallizing. Inulin, if you have it, does the same thing. It's just like adding corn syrup to sugar based candy. The corn syrup is a powerful crystallization inhibitor.

Sugar alcohols won't form crystals with anything but themselves. In other words, a erythritol molecule won't form a crystal with an isomalt molecule. By swapping out some of the erythritol with another SA, you not only decrease the level of concentration, you add ingredients to the solution that get in the way of erythritol attempting to bond. You obviously want to be careful how much of another SA you add, as some SAs have re-crystallization/cooling issues of their own- xylitol, for instance.

Greater Dispersal of E

This is still a bit theoretical, but I believe that granular e may dissolve in such a way that the particles don't travel all that far in the final baked good. The closer they end up, the more likely they will join/recrystallize.

This is a big reason why I begin many of my recipes by making a polyd/erythritol syrup. Not only am I ensuring that the polyd won't clump by pre-dissolving everything, I'm dispersing the e as thoroughly as possible amongst the other ingredients.

Even though I've never been a fan of using powdered erythritol due to the inconsistent manner in which it measures, it may dissolve easier. More importantly, though, using powdered e might distribute the erythritol more thoroughly throughout the baked good, making re-crystallization more difficult.


So how does all this apply to your question Kevin? Well, thanks for bearing with me Here are the tweaks I would try, in order of difficulty:

1. If using granular E, switch to the same amount (by weight) of powdered E. Granular E = 232 grams/cup

OR

If your recipe contains water or milk, make a syrup with the e (and polyd, if using)

2. If you can tolerate them, sub out some of the E with the same amount of another SA:

Xylitol/maltitol/sorbitol (decrease the splenda in the recipe)
Isomalt (increase the splenda in the recipe)

3. If you can tolerate it, swap out some of the erythritol with the same amount of polyd (and add splenda).

4. The usual last resort for textural sugar subs, Not/sugar, is probably an effective crystallization inhibitor. Swap out some of the E with the appropriate amount of Not/sugar (and add some splenda).
Hi Scott,

I have been reading these threads on erythritol/polyd, etc. I buzzed up my huge stock of E in a coffee grinder some time ago, but it still gets a grainy, cool taste to it in baked goods.

Now I am trying to make really delicious treats for my MIL who was recently diagnosed with breast cancer, and has been advised to get off sugar (yes!) I would to make something undetectable from 'regular' cookies, etc. (I made her some lc snickerdoodles a couple weeks ago, and my FIL took a bite and said "Is this something Erica made?" LOL) They were .... ok. Somehow they were too sweet, in addition to the above mentioned problems.

ANYWAY, my questions - I am wondering why you include splenda in #3, above. I would really like to avoid it with just a E/PolyD blend.

Also, is making a syrup of such a blend always necessary? Or is just a dry blend sufficient?

Thanks much!
Erica (Hoping someone responds to this olllld thread).
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:20 AM   #13
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Erica, I don't think that Scott comes here anymore or at least I haven't seen him post in many years.
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