Low Carb Friends  
Netrition.com - Tools - Reviews - Faces - Recipes - Home


Go Back   Low Carb Friends > Support Groups > Low Carb Challenges!
Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-03-2013, 10:29 AM   #1441
Blabbermouth!!!
 
Speck333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,185
Gallery: Speck333
WOE: Semi-Primal
Hi Mobear! Thanks for checking in! I also have chronic sleep problems. I have found some relief with OTC natural stuff.

I keep seeing magnesium mentioned for a number of issues. But I haven't bought any yet, there seem to be so many kinds and ways to get it, different pills, oils, liquids, epsom salts... I'm stymied as to what kind/dose I should get.
Speck333 is offline   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old 03-03-2013, 11:45 AM   #1442
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
Key Tones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,445
Gallery: Key Tones
Stats: 312/227/??? 5/10"
Start Date: LC start 2005, have tried everything...
Hi Maureen,

Good to hear from you!

I wouldn't sweat eating potatoes. It seems most of the paleo-sphere that was against them are now calling them safe starches, but you have probably already seen that all over the place. I love Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet. He said the 50 carbs he recommends should come from potatoes! He is known as the polish Dr. Atkins. It sounds a little wacky, but he developed his diet by feeding various diets to his farm animals then conducting autopsies and writing up what various diets caused health problems. He really documented potatoes are safe and the best source of carbs. I found some sort of inexplicable relief eating my two potatoes per day back then when I incorporated them.

My experience is also perplexing with the fat. The polish optimal diet people are supposedly so skinny from eating huge quantities of pork fat. I am clueless as to how they do that; I can't seem to tell when I am overeating fat. I really wanted to make that diet work and bought all these sausages. I lost weight at first but over time started gaining too. I thought maybe it was our poor quality of food in this country (look what the heck we feed our domesticated animals), but even using avocados and imported, grass-fed Kerrygold butter instead didn't cure the problem. I did my best when I ate the Kerrygold with a lot of vegetables. This helped a lot with finding some satiety.

I have noted anecdotal testimony in the McDougall book of people saying they sleep better on starches. I know when I am rocking the high fat diet I can really get by with less sleep. It didn't bother me to get only 4 hours of sleep for long stretches; I just happily got more work done. My stress levels were too high though. I recognize I am too high strung when I get like that.

I am still only sleeping about six hours a night now. I admit my stress and anxiety has come down, but I can't be sure if it is the diet or just getting past the holidays. I am irritable, though, if I can't get my potatoes in time. That is still there. This is a consequence of not eating a lot.

Let us know how the sleep goes!
__________________
I'm hanging out here:

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/ot...el-method.html
Key Tones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:45 AM   #1443
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: OH/Involuntary Maint.
Posts: 1,138
Gallery: Mobear
Stats: 235/195/LESS
WOE: Bernstein
Start Date: 9/2010
Speck333 I asked Buffy what type of magnesium she was using a couple of months ago. She said she started with 200mg of magnesium citrate and worked up to 400mg morning and evening. She did mention that while it seemed to help her initially, it wasn't any longer. I only did one potato so far so it is way to soon if it helps me, but I'll let you know how it goes.

Svenskamae I will probably ask for dvd recommendations when I get bored with the walking one I am currently using . I did have another question for you, though. On a thread you mentioned that you bake bacon in your oven on 250F for 1 hr. What I remember is that you put in something like a deeper pan and put the bacon on racks so some of the fat dripped off. Do you also cover it with foil? I am just scared to death to try the 400F for 20 minutes method. I just cannot believe that the fat isn't going to pop and spatter all over my oven - which is not self-cleaning.
Mobear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:54 AM   #1444
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,925
Gallery: svenskamae
Stats: 235/178/135 5'3"
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD
Start Date: January 15, 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobear View Post
Speck333 I asked Buffy what type of magnesium she was using a couple of months ago. She said she started with 200mg of magnesium citrate and worked up to 400mg morning and evening. She did mention that while it seemed to help her initially, it wasn't any longer. I only did one potato so far so it is way to soon if it helps me, but I'll let you know how it goes.

Svenskamae I will probably ask for dvd recommendations when I get bored with the walking one I am currently using . I did have another question for you, though. On a thread you mentioned that you bake bacon in your oven on 250F for 1 hr. What I remember is that you put in something like a deeper pan and put the bacon on racks so some of the fat dripped off. Do you also cover it with foil? I am just scared to death to try the 400F for 20 minutes method. I just cannot believe that the fat isn't going to pop and spatter all over my oven - which is not self-cleaning.
I don't cover the bacon with foil, Maureen, though I do put foil under the wire cooling racks where I drape the bacon (i.e., the foil lines the inside of the pan). I think the fat just slowly drips off the bacon onto the bottom of the pan using my method; my oven looks the same before and after baking the bacon. If you wanted to, you could probably cover up the bacon-filled pan with foil, to protect against spatters, without ill effect.
svenskamae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 12:03 PM   #1445
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,925
Gallery: svenskamae
Stats: 235/178/135 5'3"
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD
Start Date: January 15, 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speck333 View Post
Hi Mobear! Thanks for checking in! I also have chronic sleep problems. I have found some relief with OTC natural stuff.

I keep seeing magnesium mentioned for a number of issues. But I haven't bought any yet, there seem to be so many kinds and ways to get it, different pills, oils, liquids, epsom salts... I'm stymied as to what kind/dose I should get.
There is a Livin La Vida Low Carb show with a magnesium expert named Morley Robbins. That might be helpful to listen to; I haven't done so.

In terms of taking pills, liquids, or epson salt soaks for magnesium, I don't think it matters. Epson salt soaks serve other purposes like soothing sore muscles, but one can absorb magnesium through the skin that way. I think the people who opt for creams or epson salts rather than pills may have tummy upsets with the pills, so they go for the topical/skin absorption. The pills don't bother me, so I just bought a brand I like at my local coop and take 2 per day, which is what the bottle recommends. I'm lucky to not have sleep problems, so I'm probably more careless about this than people with sleep problems can afford to be.
svenskamae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 12:07 PM   #1446
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
Key Tones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,445
Gallery: Key Tones
Stats: 312/227/??? 5/10"
Start Date: LC start 2005, have tried everything...
All--

I have decided that perhaps the 4 hour body/Ferriss recommendation to take a day a week and eat eat eat is a good one. He says this is to prevent down regulating hormones so you can continue to lose weight. I have done something to this effect due to social things since I have started. We went to an Indian food restaurant yesterday.

I don't believe his recommendations to take lots of supplements along with this day of eating, but I think indian spices/curry is a good stand in. I have observed that my daughter is magically continuing to lose weight eating primarily rice curry dishes from the Indian food place on campus and fat free mashed potatoes mashed with bone broth for dinner. I am a little confused as to where I last reported her progress, but she started about a month ago at 242 and now is 227. This are fantastic results eating mostly carbs. This is now 15 pounds down.

So anyway, I won't be using any supplements but will use curry spices to help counter effects of eating up once per week and will stick with Japanese food (or other asian cuisine) and Indian food for this day or 24 hour period (as in Friday night dinner + Sat lunch or something like that). I think it is important to get the animal protein in somewhere and B12 and minerals.

I am going to a friend's house tonight and will be bringing low fat hummus and carrots and some of my potatoes for me. I'll bring my delicious meatballs to contribute to the spagetti dinner but will not be eating that.

Last edited by Key Tones; 03-03-2013 at 12:09 PM..
Key Tones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 01:51 PM   #1447
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: OH/Involuntary Maint.
Posts: 1,138
Gallery: Mobear
Stats: 235/195/LESS
WOE: Bernstein
Start Date: 9/2010
Key Tones if I could get 4 hrs uninterrupted sleep I would be thrilled. Most nights I get 1 or 2 then struggle for a couple of hours to go back to sleep. IF I go back to sleep I might get a couple of more hours. The endo I saw mentioned sleep apnea, but honestly I don't think I ever get into REM sleep. Many days I get up and don't feel like I've ever been to sleep at all. I am just a walking zombie. Certain things must be done, but all the extras that I should do, or want to do just fall by the wayside.

Does anyone think my 35g potato is going to have any impact?? Should it be larger? Before I started LCing seriously I would frequently put myself to sleep by a large number of carbs...but of course I paid the price for that with out of control blood glucose.

Thanks for the tip on the bacon Svenskamae. I am going to try it!
Mobear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 03:29 PM   #1448
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,925
Gallery: svenskamae
Stats: 235/178/135 5'3"
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD
Start Date: January 15, 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobear View Post
Key Tones if I could get 4 hrs uninterrupted sleep I would be thrilled. Most nights I get 1 or 2 then struggle for a couple of hours to go back to sleep. IF I go back to sleep I might get a couple of more hours. The endo I saw mentioned sleep apnea, but honestly I don't think I ever get into REM sleep. Many days I get up and don't feel like I've ever been to sleep at all. I am just a walking zombie. Certain things must be done, but all the extras that I should do, or want to do just fall by the wayside.

Does anyone think my 35g potato is going to have any impact?? Should it be larger? Before I started LCing seriously I would frequently put myself to sleep by a large number of carbs...but of course I paid the price for that with out of control blood glucose.

Thanks for the tip on the bacon Svenskamae. I am going to try it!
That level of insomnia sounds just awful, Maureen. I think it's possible that eating some sort of simple starch will help somewhat. But unfortunately, in your case you'll have to balance the amount of starch taken to help with sleep against the effect it has on your blood glucose. Still, I would assume that being that sleep deprived would in itself put your body under a lot of stress and thus make blood sugar control more difficult. Maybe start small and build up, seeing the relative effect on sleep versus blood sugar? I'm sure you must be so sick of experimenting without any certainty of a result, but I don't see another way around it.
svenskamae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 03:32 PM   #1449
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,925
Gallery: svenskamae
Stats: 235/178/135 5'3"
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD
Start Date: January 15, 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speck333 View Post
Hi Mobear! Thanks for checking in! I also have chronic sleep problems. I have found some relief with OTC natural stuff.

I keep seeing magnesium mentioned for a number of issues. But I haven't bought any yet, there seem to be so many kinds and ways to get it, different pills, oils, liquids, epsom salts... I'm stymied as to what kind/dose I should get.
Speck, I listened to that magnesium broadcast on Jimmy Moore. The guest suggested 700 mg/day for women, which is twice the USDA recommended daily requirement. He suggests that it be taken in the evening as a sleep aid, so take the pills or the epson salt bath at night. (Obviously one can't be as precise about the amount with an epison salt bath or foot bath.)
svenskamae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 07:43 PM   #1450
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 867
Gallery: shelley
Hi everyone.....sounds like the McDougall program is working for a few of you! I'm happy for you. I looked at his book, online and everything and it is NOT for me. But if you haven't seen the movie "Forks over Knives" they are in that movie and it's apparently based on his program. He loves soy for protein...and that is poison to my body.

Maureen....your FT3 levels should be above mid range to have any energy at all. I don't feel well if my FT3 is not at about 3/4 of the range. Will the doc give you T3 to help raise those levels??? As I recall you are taking a small amount of T4 (synthroid), and obviously you are not converting it to T3 for the range to be so low, or else you need more T4 and retesting in 8 weeks to see if that has helped raise the FT3 levels. I am so sorry that this is happening. Best method for testing cortisol is 24 hour saliva test, but you are right that you have to be off all meds (OTC too) if they have any steroids or interference). I hope you get it all sorted out soon.

Svenskamae...to answer you...I do eat yogurt with live cultures and today found raw milk yogurt with live cultures! I'm in heaven!!!! First I found the raw milk and now the yogurt....so I'll take some of this and use my raw milk and make my own yogurt! Such fun!

I'm going to have to look into this "butyrate" thing!!!! Sounds interesting.

My update is that I have gained another pound....*but* I'm back at the gym and lifting heavy weights to failure of the muscle groups. Boy does it feel good to be back at that, and my former lifting partner is doing it with me. 3 days a week and we are so happy to be back at that. Maureen, I'm also 64 and so is my lifting buddy, and we will both turn 65 in a few months, so it's not easy, but feels so good. I'm already noticing that I'm standing taller and every now and then I remember to suck in my belly!!!! (instead of letting it just relax/hang out).

We started the "Body for Life" lifting program, and I'm sort of following his eating again. Last time I lost 20# doing the program with his nonfat food eating program. This time I'm doing the 5-6 small meals a day, more protein (my body seems to really like the protein!!!), but not nonfat...I'm doing moderate fat...my raw milk and yogurt are full fat. But I'm going to use coconut milk (unsweetened) for the liquid in the protein shake or else 50% raw milk and 50% water. We shall see. This is how I'm going to eat and exercise for March. I shall report my progress. The high fat just did NOT work for me.

I'm so delighted that drj invited me to join this group. It's the best! I don't participate in the others any more...just can't relate to what they are doing. But I'm still most amused with all the potatoes you two are eating and getting good results!!! :-)
__________________
Shelley
shelley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 08:00 PM   #1451
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 867
Gallery: shelley
Just realized that there was a page 49!!! So much chattering and it's just wonderful!

Re: magnesium. I take 125 mg with lunch and 300 about an hour or two before bed. I tried taking 300 at lunch and 300 at bedtime and it was too much for me. Whatever you do, start out slow with no more than say 300 a day...then try to build up. I haven't been able to go over 425/day for many many months. I keep trying and my body does not like more. I have tried all sorts of types, and what I have discovered is that one will work for a while and then give me a stomach upset (too much requires many trips to the bathroom that are not enjoyable). Currently I'm taking a tri-magnesium that has 3 types in it and that seems to be working well. I'm going on my 3rd bottle of 180 capsules so it's working nicely. Also, in order to sleep well, I take a long (and I mean long!!) bath before bed. I put in epsom salts and dead sea salts (1/2 cup of each one). My skin is soft and it knocks me out for a good night of sleep. I stay in the tub until the water is cool so that I'm not hot. If I don't take a bath, I don't sleep as well. But I do sleep, and have been through that insomnia thing for days on end. In my case, it was my adrenals. And you can't fix the thyroid until the adrenals are fixed Maureen. Hope it's not sleep apnea. It could be so many things, and I'm so sorry you are going through this. Have you tried taking a benadryl or two before bed to knock you out. That worked for me. I got the generic walmart brand (cheaper) and it was the same stuff.

I do my bacon like svenskamae. I have a "jelly roll" pan (about 1" high on the sides). I line it with foil and put the bacon on it...I crinkle the foil so the fat goes into the little crevices.....420 for 15-16 minutes for mine..it's thin sliced. But it does mess up the oven after a while.....but I'm lucky and have a retired husband whose job is to clean the stove and oven since I've done it for 35 years...now it's "his turn". He does a great job of it! I tried putting foil over the top and it didn't really "cook" it at all....but maybe if I left it in for much longer it would have. I wanted it *now*, so just took the foil off and let it continue until done/crispy.

Still loving to read about you all with your potatoes!!!!
shelley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 09:09 PM   #1452
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,925
Gallery: svenskamae
Stats: 235/178/135 5'3"
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD
Start Date: January 15, 2012
Shelley, congratulations on finding the raw milk yogurt ingredients! All that I can find locally is raw milk cheese, but that's the type I've been trying to pick (when not eating potatoes).

I'm impressed that you are doing the heavy lifting of weights to failure. The more that I read about exercise that really improves insulin response, the more I become convinced that what you are doing is the right thing. Oddly enough, I was listening to the "Body for Life" book on CD today, and whenever he talked about diet, I thought, "Nope, nope, that won't work for me ..." But you and I seem to have different needs, with my feeling better on high fat, intermittent fasting (and potato hacks as a desperate weight loss technique).

I'm really glad that you are continuing to participate in this group, Shelley. I'm back to another potato day tomorrow, up through Thursday, so stay tuned for more adventures in Potatoland.
svenskamae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:26 PM   #1453
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
Key Tones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,445
Gallery: Key Tones
Stats: 312/227/??? 5/10"
Start Date: LC start 2005, have tried everything...
Maureen,

I don't know what the minimum effective dose of potatoes would be. It seems you do have a pretty bad case. It seems you would need to experiment.


Shelley-I haven't seen much soy mentioned by McDougall in his recipes or in his lectures or in his book so far. I don't think soy is his bag

Great job on the workouts!

Last edited by Key Tones; 03-03-2013 at 11:27 PM..
Key Tones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 03:08 AM   #1454
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: OH/Involuntary Maint.
Posts: 1,138
Gallery: Mobear
Stats: 235/195/LESS
WOE: Bernstein
Start Date: 9/2010
Shelley I am not on any type of thyroid medication. These are my test results from last April which are identical to the next test from December 2012: TSH 1.68uIU/mL Range .450 - 4.50
Triiodothyronine, Free, Serum 2.2pg/mL Range 2.0 - 4.4
T4, Free (direct) 1.43ng/dL Range .82 - 1.77
Triiodothyronine (T3) 86ng/dL Range 71 - 180

The endo I saw last week mentioned armour so I am praying she will be willing to try that in a very low dose. I have tried most of the OTC thisPM and thatPM and benedryl for sleep and none really helps. The vicodin I had with my knee surgeries knocked me out, but of course that isn't an option

Key Tones I definitely think 1 small 35g potato isn't going to do. I've done it for 2 nights and hardley slept at all. Sunday night I was awake til 1:30 a.m. Monday morning and only fell asleep after I ate the food I was saving for Monday nights dinner

Someone in the Main Lobby in the recent sleep thread mentioned trazadone and I'm keeping that in mind. I don't really want to take sleep medication, but maybe a couple of nights a week it would really help.
Mobear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 05:05 PM   #1455
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 867
Gallery: shelley
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenskamae View Post
Shelley, congratulations on finding the raw milk yogurt ingredients! All that I can find locally is raw milk cheese, but that's the type I've been trying to pick (when not eating potatoes).

I'm impressed that you are doing the heavy lifting of weights to failure. The more that I read about exercise that really improves insulin response, the more I become convinced that what you are doing is the right thing. Oddly enough, I was listening to the "Body for Life" book on CD today, and whenever he talked about diet, I thought, "Nope, nope, that won't work for me ..." But you and I seem to have different needs, with my feeling better on high fat, intermittent fasting (and potato hacks as a desperate weight loss technique).

I'm really glad that you are continuing to participate in this group, Shelley. I'm back to another potato day tomorrow, up through Thursday, so stay tuned for more adventures in Potatoland.
The raw milk thing is new for Idaho, but the dairy that does this is about 45 minutes from my house, so I'm guessing they only deliver to our area. But boy oh boy is that plain raw yogurt yummy!!!!

I do not do the eating plan for Body for Life. I refuse to do nonfat again. My endocrine system needs the fat...that I am 100% sure of. I'm just not doing high fat! I'm doing low carb, but higher than I did before (which was under 20 grams total all the time). Now I'm having some fruit and that jacks up that number.

I'm glad the potatoes are working for you. We are all different and what works today may not next month....especially for women!

I love the weights. I love the feeling of failing and being unable to do one more rep, or one half more...just frozen in space. It's a nice feeling for me. But you have to remember that I spent most of my life with dance, pilates, yoga or heavy weights...so this is "my norm" and I"ve missed it.

The other thing of importance is that I've always been underweight and often would eat very little due to my dance schedule...and the theory that I've been told just yesterday that someone in that position should NOT do high fat as I have really damaged my body and to go from very little calories for years on end to high fat is a recipe for disaster. No wonder I felt so bad on it (and gained a total of 7# in under 6 months)
shelley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 05:07 PM   #1456
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 867
Gallery: shelley
Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Tones View Post
Shelley-I haven't seen much soy mentioned by McDougall in his recipes or in his lectures or in his book so far. I don't think soy is his bag

Great job on the workouts!
Thanks KT. I enjoy the workouts...tomorrow is the next one! Re: McDougall, I googled him, went to amazon and looked in his book and went to his site for "free diet advice" or something like that. Soy was all over the place in his diet plan....Tofu is soy....recipes were with tofu and soy. So, definitely not something I would consider. As I recall, the film "forks over knives" was the same...with soy/tofu being a protein source for his plan.
shelley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 05:10 PM   #1457
Senior LCF Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 867
Gallery: shelley
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobear View Post
Shelley I am not on any type of thyroid medication. These are my test results from last April which are identical to the next test from December 2012: TSH 1.68uIU/mL Range .450 - 4.50
Triiodothyronine, Free, Serum 2.2pg/mL Range 2.0 - 4.4
T4, Free (direct) 1.43ng/dL Range .82 - 1.77
Triiodothyronine (T3) 86ng/dL Range 71 - 180

The endo I saw last week mentioned armour so I am praying she will be willing to try that in a very low dose. I have tried most of the OTC thisPM and thatPM and benedryl for sleep and none really helps. The vicodin I had with my knee surgeries knocked me out, but of course that isn't an option

Key Tones I definitely think 1 small 35g potato isn't going to do. I've done it for 2 nights and hardley slept at all. Sunday night I was awake til 1:30 a.m. Monday morning and only fell asleep after I ate the food I was saving for Monday nights dinner

Someone in the Main Lobby in the recent sleep thread mentioned trazadone and I'm keeping that in mind. I don't really want to take sleep medication, but maybe a couple of nights a week it would really help.
Maureen, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the doc will give you a trial of Armour...that would be fabulous!!!! Oh please let it be so!!!!

My TSH used to be in the same range as yours (even though it's a pituitary test and not a thyroid test), and I was a slug and was rather non-functional a lot. I started on armour and oh boy was it nice to have a life again.

I wonder if this will help with sleep....do you think he'll give you a trial of Armour soon so that you can see if this will help the sleeping issue. That would be so nice to fix 2 problems with one tiny little pill. If he does Rx it for you, let me know as docs don't always tell you the 'proper' way to take it or what foods to avoid within hours, etc.,....but potatoes are fine!
shelley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 07:54 PM   #1458
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
Key Tones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,445
Gallery: Key Tones
Stats: 312/227/??? 5/10"
Start Date: LC start 2005, have tried everything...
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelley View Post
Thanks KT. I enjoy the workouts...tomorrow is the next one! Re: McDougall, I googled him, went to amazon and looked in his book and went to his site for "free diet advice" or something like that. Soy was all over the place in his diet plan....Tofu is soy....recipes were with tofu and soy. So, definitely not something I would consider. As I recall, the film "forks over knives" was the same...with soy/tofu being a protein source for his plan.
OK, I googled it. It is in his April 2005 newsletter. He has a pic that says use as "Condiment Only" in letters across the picture.

He has this long letter I'm not going to read that seems to be about how tofu in small amounts is OK and fake soy meat and soy protein bars are frankenfood. I'm already familiar with this and don't have interest in eating soy since I am not a vegan.

I think tofu is probably OK in small amounts in miso soup and such, per Misty Humphreys (I read her stuff about soy). I will eat miso soup at restaurants.

I'm not much in agreement with him on a lot of things. I think sugar causes heart disease. He is misguided on cholesterol and red meat and such...not unique but a shame. What he does seem to know is how to lower the weight set point. I still have no sign of regain even though I ate a lot this weekend.

Last edited by Key Tones; 03-04-2013 at 08:00 PM..
Key Tones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 06:45 AM   #1459
Chatty Cathy
 
clackley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 16,677
Gallery: clackley
Stats: 228.5/168/125
WOE: N.K.=vlc/hf/moderate protein & organic/pastured
Start Date: Restart Oct 18 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Tones View Post
Cathy - I was trying to get the most bang for my buck since I am eating starches. I have often wondered how much good there is in using probiotics on high fat/low carb when I'm not sending much down there to feed the beneficial gut bacteria anyway.

So, check out this article. I'll link it, but if it disappears, I'll copy paste. Yet another article about butyrate. In a comment at the very end, Chris Kresser recommends kombucha as an alternative (I don't like saurkraut, I am afraid of kimchee, and I am off dairy, so....)

The article is not about probiotics, it is an aside...just see the very bottom. I have also seen Jaminet say he picks up kombucha occasionally.


Whole Health Source: Butyric Acid: an Ancient Controller of Metabolism, Inflammation and Stress Resistance



Monday, December 7, 2009Butyric Acid: an Ancient Controller of Metabolism, Inflammation and Stress Resistance
An Interesting Finding

Susceptible strains of rodents fed high-fat diets overeat, gain fat and become profoundly insulin resistant. Dr. Jianping Ye's group recently published a paper showing that the harmful metabolic effects of a high-fat diet (lard and soybean oil) on mice can be prevented, and even reversed, using a short-chain saturated fatty acid called butyric acid (hereafter, butyrate). Here's a graph of the percent body fat over time of the two groups:

The butyrate-fed mice remained lean and avoided metabolic problems. Butyrate increased their energy expenditure by increasing body heat production and modestly increasing physical activity. It also massively increased the function of their mitochondria, the tiny power plants of the cell.

Butyrate lowered their blood cholesterol by approximately 25 percent, and their triglycerides by nearly 50 percent. It lowered their fasting insulin by nearly 50 percent, and increased their insulin sensitivity by nearly 300 percent*. The investigators concluded:

Butyrate and its derivatives may have potential application in the prevention and treatment of metabolic syndrome in humans.
There's one caveat, however: the butyrate group at less food. Something about the butyrate treatment caused their food intake to decline after 3 weeks, dropping roughly 20% by 10 weeks. The investigators cleverly tried to hide this by normalizing food intake to body weight, making it look like the food intake of the comparison group was dropping as well (when actually it was staying the same as this group was gaining weight).

I found this study thought-provoking, so I looked into butyrate further.

Butyrate Suppresses Inflammation in the Gut and Other Tissues

In most animals, the highest concentration of butyrate is found in the gut. That's because it's produced by intestinal bacteria from carbohydrate that the host cannot digest, such as cellulose and pectin. Indigestible carbohydrate is the main form of dietary fiber.

It turns out, butyrate has been around in the mammalian gut for so long that the lining of our large intestine has evolved to use it as its primary source of energy. It does more than just feed the bowel, however. It also has potent anti-inflammatory and anti-cancer effects. So much so, that investigators are using oral butyrate supplements and butyrate enemas to treat inflammatory bowel diseases such as Crohn's and ulcerative colitis. Investigators are also suggesting that inflammatory bowel disorders may be caused or exacerbated by a deficiency of butyrate in the first place.

Butyrate, and other short-chain fatty acids produced by gut bacteria**, has a remarkable effect on intestinal permeability. In tissue culture and live rats, short-chain fatty acids cause a large and rapid decrease in intestinal permeability. Butyrate, or dietary fiber, prevents the loss of intestinal premeability in rat models of ulcerative colitis. This shows that short-chain fatty acids, including butyrate, play an important role in the maintenance of gut barrier integrity. Impaired gut barrier integrity is associated with many diseases, including fatty liver, heart failure and autoimmune diseases (thanks to Pedro Bastos for this information-- I'll be covering the topic in more detail later).

Butyrate's role doesn't end in the gut. It's absorbed into the circulation, and may exert effects on the rest of the body as well. In human blood immune cells, butyrate is potently anti-inflammatory***.

Butyrate Increases Resistance to Metabolic and Physical Stress

Certain types of fiber reduce atherosclerosis in animal models, and this effect may be due to butyrate production produced when the fiber is fermented. Fiber intake was associated with lower blood markers of inflammation in the Women's Health Initiative study, and has been repeatedly associated with lower heart attack risk and reduced progression of atherosclerosis in humans. Butyrate also sharply reduces the harmful effects of type 1 diabetes in rats, as does dietary fiber to a lesser extent.

Butyrate increases the function and survival of mice with certain neurodegenerative diseases. Polyglutamine diseases, which are the most common class of genetic neurodegenerative diseases, are delayed in mice treated with butyrate (1, 2, 3). Many of you have probably heard of Huntington's disease, which is the most common of the class. I did my thesis on a polyglutamine disease called SCA7, and this is the first suggestion I've seen that diet may be able to modify its course.

Yet another interesting finding in the first paper I discussed: mice treated with butyrate were more cold-resistant than the comparison group. When they were both placed in a cold room, body temperature dropped quite a bit in the comparison group, while it remained relatively stable in the butyrate group, despite the fact that the butyrate group was leaner****. This was due to increased heat production in the butyrate group.

Due to the potent effect butyrate has on a number of bodily processes, I believe it may be a fundamental controller of metabolism, stress resistance and the immune system in mammals, similar to omega-6:3 balance.

An Ancient Line of Communication Between Symbiotic Organisms

Why does butyrate have so much control over inflammation? Let's think about where it comes from. Bacteria in the gut produce it. It's a source of energy, so our bodies take it up readily. It's one of the main molecules that passes from the symbiotic (helpful) bacteria in the gut to the rest of the body. It's only logical that the body would receive butyrate as a signal that there's a thriving colony of symbiotic bacteria in the gut, and induce a tolerance to them. The body may alter its immune response (inflammation) in order to permit a mutually beneficial relationship between itself and its symbionts.

A Change of Heart

Butyrate has caused me to re-think my position on fiber-- which was formerly that it's irrelevant at best. I felt that fiber came along with nutrient-dense whole plant foods, but was not beneficial per se. I believed that the associations between fiber intake and a lower risk of a number of diseases were probably due to the fact that wealthier, more educated, healthier people tend to buy more whole grains, fruit and vegetables. In other words, I believed that fiber intake was associated with better health, but did not contribute to it. I now feel, based on further reading about fiber and short-chain fatty acids like butyrate, that the associations represent a true cause-and-effect relationship.

I also didn't fully appreciate the caloric contribution of fiber to the human diet. In industrialized countries, fiber may contribute 5 to 10 percent of total calorie intake, due to its conversion to short-chain fatty acids like butyrate in the large intestine (free full text). This figure is probably at least twice as high in cultures consuming high-fiber diets. It's interesting to think that "high-carbohydrate" cultures may be getting easily 15 percent of their calories from short-chain fats. Since that isn't recorded in dietary surveys, they may appear more dependent on carbohydrate than they actually are. The Kitavans may be getting more than 30 percent of their total calories from fat, despite the fact that their food is only 21 percent fat when it passes their lips. Their calorie intake may be underestimated as well.

Sources of Butyrate

There are two main ways to get butyrate and other short-chain fatty acids. The first is to eat fiber and let your intestinal bacteria do the rest. Whole plant foods such as sweet potatoes, properly prepared whole grains, beans, vegetables, fruit and nuts are good sources of fiber. Refined foods such as white flour, white rice and sugar are very low in fiber. Clinical trials have shown that increasing dietary fiber increases butyrate production, and decreasing fiber decreases it (free full text).

Butyrate also occurs in significant amounts in food. What foods contain butyrate? Hmm, I wonder where the name BUTYR-ate came from? Butter perhaps? Butter is 3-4 percent butyrate, the richest known source. But everyone knows butter is bad for you, right?

After thinking about it, I've decided that butyrate must have been a principal component of Dr. Weston Price's legendary butter oil. Price used this oil in conjunction with high-vitamin cod liver oil to heal tooth decay and a number of other ailments in his patients. The method he used to produce it would have concentrated fats with a low melting temperature, including butyrate, in addition to vitamin K2*****. Thus, the combination of high-vitamin cod liver oil and butter oil would have provided a potent cocktail of fat-soluble vitamins (A, D3, K2), omega-3 fatty acids and butyrate. It's no wonder it was so effective in his patients.


* According to insulin tolerance test.

** Acetate (acetic acid, the main acid in vinegar), propionate and butyrate are the primary three fatty acids produced by intestinal fermentation.

*** The lowest concentration used in this study, 30 micromolar, is probably higher than the concentration in peripheral serum under normal circumstances. Human serum butyrate is in the range of 4 micromolar in British adults, and 29 micromolar in the hepatic portal vein which brings fats from the digestive tract to the liver (ref). This would likely be at least two-fold higher in populations eating high-fiber diets.

**** Due to higher mitochondrial density in brown fat and more mitochondrial uncoupling.

***** Slow crystallization, which selectively concentrates triglycerides with a low melting point.

Posted by Stephan Guyenet at 8:00 PM

= = = =


Stephan said...
Hi Girrlockholmes,

I'm not an expert on SIBO. My guess is that oral butyrate alone will probably not help a SIBO. However, raw fermented foods with a spectrum of short-chain fatty acids, probiotic bacteria and other gentle antimicrobials may help if tolerated. I'll give you some thoughts purely for informational purposes (discuss with your doc). Some of these will probably be obvious to you.

-Avoid fructose and all refined carbs. Fructose is your enemy.

-Be aware of food sensitivities, especially gluten and dairy. You may be sensitive to foods without realizing you're symptomatic, and without coming up positive on food sensitivity tests.

-Try out raw fermented food like sauerkraut (if tolerated), unfiltered raw vinegar, and kombucha that's been fermented enough that it's no longer sweet. I have a sauerkraut recipe on the blog. This may take a while to be effective.

-Balance n-6:3 by avoiding industrial seed oils and ensuring a modest but regular intake of omega-3. This has to do with gut wall permeability and resistance to the inflammatory effects of infection. This is also a long-term strategy.

-Stomach acid is critical in avoiding SIBO. Proton pump blocking drugs used for indigestion and ulcers cause SIBO in rodents and humans alike. Antacids like Tums will do the same. You may think about experimenting with betaine HCl pills (HCl is stomach acid) to restore stomach acidity if that's a problem (it's fairly common).

Just some ideas. Please keep us updated and let us know if you have success with any of these approaches or others.

January 12, 2010 at 10:38 AM
K.T. Thank you for sharing this information. It is fascinating. I am stuck on the notion that the gut is the major player and became a fan of Stephan G. until his unfortunate food reward hypothesis that he felt the need to defend. I kind of lost respect but this article reminds me that he is a pretty smart guy and has some very good information particularly on the subject of gut health.

As it happens, I came down with a gastro illness last week that left me reamed out, weak and some pretty unpleasant anxiety - verging on depression. The 2 (brain and gut) are linked without a doubt. I am feeling oh so much better now!
__________________
Cathy
Original start - Feb. 2000 180/125

"The energy content of food (calories) matters, but it is less important than the metabolic effect of food on our body." Dr. P. Attia

"dumping carbohydrates on your broken metabolism is tantamount to doing jumping jacks on two broken legs" -The Spark of Reason

“Eat animals. Mostly fat. Enjoy!
clackley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 07:23 AM   #1460
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,925
Gallery: svenskamae
Stats: 235/178/135 5'3"
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD
Start Date: January 15, 2012
Sorry that you have been sick, Cathy. If you've had a gastro illness, it may be especially important to replenish your good gut flora (and doubly so if you took antibiotics as a cure). Do you have a plan for that? I know you like kimchi, and that would be a good thing to eat. How about plain Greek yogurt, kombucha, raw milk cheeses, refrigerated sauerkraut, etc.? Taking a priobiotic? Livestrong reports Multi Flora as the best rated brand after comparative testing.

Last edited by Maryposa; 03-05-2013 at 11:23 AM.. Reason: Putting reference to Livestrong back
svenskamae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 08:09 AM   #1461
Chatty Cathy
 
clackley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 16,677
Gallery: clackley
Stats: 228.5/168/125
WOE: N.K.=vlc/hf/moderate protein & organic/pastured
Start Date: Restart Oct 18 2009
Thanks Sven. It will be a while before I can eat kimchi again.... trying not to think about it....

I didn't take anything for it and it passed on it's own. Lots of water and lemon. I take probiotics and eat fermented foods as much as possible. I am thinking of trying the komubachu (spelling?) that K.T. is using .... have to look for it after I figure out how to spell it.

I may make yogurt again too.
clackley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 11:39 AM   #1462
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
Key Tones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,445
Gallery: Key Tones
Stats: 312/227/??? 5/10"
Start Date: LC start 2005, have tried everything...
Quote:
Originally Posted by clackley View Post
K.T. Thank you for sharing this information. It is fascinating. I am stuck on the notion that the gut is the major player and became a fan of Stephan G. until his unfortunate food reward hypothesis that he felt the need to defend. I kind of lost respect but this article reminds me that he is a pretty smart guy and has some very good information particularly on the subject of gut health.

As it happens, I came down with a gastro illness last week that left me reamed out, weak and some pretty unpleasant anxiety - verging on depression. The 2 (brain and gut) are linked without a doubt. I am feeling oh so much better now!
Oh, I am sorry to hear you have not been well! Yes, I believe the gut-brain connection.

Stephan is pretty sharp, yes. I think the cause of obesity varies and is multi-factorial, and he is right in some sense or for some part of the puzzle.

I read up on garbanzo beans and how they are supposed to help control blood sugar. I made my own hummus. I ate way too much of it last night with carrots. It was too good!

I took my morning blood sugar - 104. I get a much lower reading with potatoes for dinner.
Key Tones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 12:49 PM   #1463
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: OH/Involuntary Maint.
Posts: 1,138
Gallery: Mobear
Stats: 235/195/LESS
WOE: Bernstein
Start Date: 9/2010
Thought I would give a quick update on curing insomnia with a potato

The first 2 nights I had a very very small potato....each were only 35g. Didn't do a darn thing for me, but didn't seem to cause blood glucose to rise either.

Last night I went hog wild...and ate 2 of the little buggers. Won't say I slept good...got about 2 hours then moved to couch and drifted off for maybe another 2 hours. My blood glucose at 5 a.m. was 83

Tonight I will have 2 and see what happens! This is way cheaper than prescription meds!
Mobear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 01:01 PM   #1464
Chatty Cathy
 
clackley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 16,677
Gallery: clackley
Stats: 228.5/168/125
WOE: N.K.=vlc/hf/moderate protein & organic/pastured
Start Date: Restart Oct 18 2009
Very interesting! Do you think eating potatoes takes one out of ketosis? That is a deal breaker for me. I need the ketosis for appetite suppression and a # of other good reasons. Anyone checking blood ketones?
clackley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 01:35 PM   #1465
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
Key Tones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,445
Gallery: Key Tones
Stats: 312/227/??? 5/10"
Start Date: LC start 2005, have tried everything...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobear View Post
Thought I would give a quick update on curing insomnia with a potato

The first 2 nights I had a very very small potato....each were only 35g. Didn't do a darn thing for me, but didn't seem to cause blood glucose to rise either.

Last night I went hog wild...and ate 2 of the little buggers. Won't say I slept good...got about 2 hours then moved to couch and drifted off for maybe another 2 hours. My blood glucose at 5 a.m. was 83

Tonight I will have 2 and see what happens! This is way cheaper than prescription meds!
Oh my GOSH, that is good news! If it somehow helps you sleep and lowers blood sugar, what a boon!

I can't explain it, but my fasting glucose is in the 80s when I eat plain potatoes for dinner. It is higher when I eat anything else, and it is higher if I eat *nothing* for dinner

What is the mechanism?

If I hadn't seen it on my own glucose meter, I would not have believed it and would have thought, oh, that is your n=1, whatever....
Key Tones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 01:45 PM   #1466
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
Key Tones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,445
Gallery: Key Tones
Stats: 312/227/??? 5/10"
Start Date: LC start 2005, have tried everything...
Quote:
Originally Posted by clackley View Post
Very interesting! Do you think eating potatoes takes one out of ketosis? That is a deal breaker for me. I need the ketosis for appetite suppression and a # of other good reasons. Anyone checking blood ketones?
I'm going to see if I can find a reference to something I once read -- that any low calorie diet causes ketosis, regardless of food composition.

I just tried and don't see anything obvious. I'll try again later.

Anyway, as I recall, any very low calorie diet can put you into ketosis. I suspect this could be happening, since I don't eat more than 1 or 2 potatoes at a time and don't feel hungry. How the heck this happens on all carbs I don't know, but I get the distintive metal mouth at times. I find it easy to skip a meal now as well.

I have also read from someone that tried McDougall and failed a couple of times until it worked that McDougall says dairy addiction or being accustomed to high fat can cause you to feel like bailing and eating up. I was fine, though. I seemed to have switched my need for a hit over to curry spices now.

Last edited by Key Tones; 03-05-2013 at 01:47 PM..
Key Tones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 03:04 PM   #1467
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,925
Gallery: svenskamae
Stats: 235/178/135 5'3"
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD
Start Date: January 15, 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobear View Post
Thought I would give a quick update on curing insomnia with a potato

The first 2 nights I had a very very small potato....each were only 35g. Didn't do a darn thing for me, but didn't seem to cause blood glucose to rise either.

Last night I went hog wild...and ate 2 of the little buggers. Won't say I slept good...got about 2 hours then moved to couch and drifted off for maybe another 2 hours. My blood glucose at 5 a.m. was 83

Tonight I will have 2 and see what happens! This is way cheaper than prescription meds!
Oh, Maureen, I'm so glad for you! I hope this continues to work, and works even better tonight. And BG at 83--wonderful!

I speak from experience when I say that cold potatoes eaten without fat are not addictive--I would happily never eat them again, if other things worked for weight loss at this point--so you don't need to worry about that side effect from your potato "meds."
svenskamae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 03:43 PM   #1468
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
drjlocarb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,340
Gallery: drjlocarb
Stats: 274 /219/190
WOE: vlc/NK
Start Date: LC-1999,jan2010 274 NK 1-1-13 at 244
re butyrate;

All the studies and info he writes about is from animal studies. I think most of the studies were done on animals with a greater ability to digest larger amounts of plant material than humans. We get our fatty acids from fat and most animals don't eat enough fat and have adapted to gut flora FA production. Cows have a stomach devoted to the production of FA from plant material.

I have been missing in action, but keeping up on all of you. I might post more later if I can get passed some really bad ship going on in my life. Losing weight, but not in a good way
drjlocarb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 04:14 PM   #1469
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,925
Gallery: svenskamae
Stats: 235/178/135 5'3"
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD
Start Date: January 15, 2012
Thanks for the insight on butyrate, drj. I'm sorry you are going through some difficult stuff ... sending you some hugs
svenskamae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2013, 04:21 PM   #1470
Major LCF Poster!
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,925
Gallery: svenskamae
Stats: 235/178/135 5'3"
WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD
Start Date: January 15, 2012
Pirate Jenny has introduced a thread in the JUDDD part of the board about using raw cornstarch as a way to fight insomnia and nightmares. I provide a link to this, below:

Raw cornstarch experiment, anyone? :)

Maureen, you might want to hop over to the JUDDD board and chat with PirateJenny about this. She seems very well-informed and is extremely nice. Maybe you could compare notes about various methods of using starch to fight insomnia.
svenskamae is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:27 AM.


Copyright ©1999-2014 Friends Forums LLC. All rights reserved. - Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
LowCarbFriends® is a registered mark of Friends Forums, LLC.