∞ Stalled But Determined Challenge! ∞ - Page 48

Key Tones · 02-28-2013, 06:38 AM

Svenska,

Suddenly I have bloated up and I woke up uncomfortable. I don't know if it was the switch to mashed potatoes this week with bone broth (these are too good - I can eat more of these I noticed), the suddenly not having skins, or the addition of kombucha and vinegar.

I definitely could do with more fiber today.

I do wonder if mashing until sticky alters the potatoes. I did much better when I just baked, microwaved, or boiled them.

I tried boiling these organic russets, but they fell apart both times so I ended up mashing. I will have to aboid boiling these.

I have tried the supplements before, the L-glutamine. They just collect dust in my cabinets. I think I enjoy buying supplements for my cabinets.

Oh, I hadn't thought of the Splenda halt causing a digestive upset. Hmmm
__________________

Key Tones · 02-28-2013, 08:38 AM

I just googled kombucha and bloating. Apparently, this is a common reaction to first drinking it. People call it a detox as the gut bacteria changes over. I guess

svenskamae · 02-28-2013, 08:46 AM

Hi, Key Tones, sorry you are feeling uncomfortable today. I'm not surprised that the kombucha caused bloating; that happens to me every time I try a new kind of probiotic (e.g., kimchi, probiotic supplement pills). The longest it lasted for me was 2 days. Maybe drinking loads of lemon water or ginger tea would help you; those are my go-to treatments for that.

I've been eating organic fingerlings boiled, cold, with salt and either wheatfree tamari or malt vinegar. I thought that I might not get the same effect if I ate the potatoes hot, so I've stuck to cold, but if I do this much longer, I'm going to add mashed with broth to my potato menu.

Key Tones · 02-28-2013, 08:58 AM

Ah, I'm going to my sweetheart's house tonight. He has a box of ginger tea! Sounds good, thank you!

I thought you might reply - you seemed to have read/tried more things than I have ever heard of!

clackley · 03-01-2013, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Key Tones

I just googled kombucha and bloating. Apparently, this is a common reaction to first drinking it. People call it a detox as the gut bacteria changes over. I guess

K.T. - what is the purpose of the kombucha?

svenskamae · 03-01-2013, 12:20 PM

Probiotics that you can drink, as I understand it.

shelley · 03-01-2013, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by svenskamae

Hi, Shelley, Good to hear your update. Are you doing your exercise classes on an empty stomach (apart from water)? I've read that helps with fatburning, if that's your goal. It's good that you are doing some carbs after rather than before the workouts, and great that you have an exercise partner. I smiled when reading about how the 80 year olds were putting you and your partner to shame. There really does seem to be a "use it or lose it" element to exercising. The people on the exercise DVDs that I generally use are mostly over 60--and Lilias and Jane Fonda are in their 70s--and they do way better than mid-50s me.

I'm on day 4 of my potato hack. Day 3 I felt miserable--aching, tired, gassy, depressed. I joked to myself in my own head that if I'd been an Irish peasant woman eating just potatoes in the 19th century, I'd have hung myself in the cow shed. Jen on the JUDDD board advised drinking loads of lemon water, and that helped some with the water and salt retention. But I still feel much less good on potatoes than on lots of fat (unlike Shelley), so I think NK is really good for me in every way except weight loss right now. For that, I'm hoping the no-fat potatoes work. My weight is about where it was before starting the hack, and I must be retaining water with all that starchy carb consumption, so my guess is that I'm down a little in weight.

I'm taking a break from potatoes on Friday, going out to eat with friends for both lunch and dinner (Cobb salad and blue-cheese crusted filet of beef for me, definitely hold the potatoes) that day.

I may return to potato hacking on Saturday, if I seem to be losing weight on it.

The closing on my mother's house went off as planned on Tuesday, and I deposited the check in an account for me and my sister today. Next week, I pay off my mortgage, which will feel very good.

Great news on the closing of the house and $$$ in the checking account. It's nice to have things "finished".

I worked out again yesterday and then we had a long chat about our expectations and our goals and such. We have both gained 1-2 pant sizes in the 2 years since we did this together. Discussion on food and such told us that for our bodies, the missing link seems to be the heavy duty weight lifting of going to failure in the muscles. That's totally against the NK way of doing things and maybe that is why this is not working for me.

I'm doing lowcarb, moderate fat and higher protein on the days I work out, and (here we go), I even had a slice of GF toast with my breakfast that day. I can't not eat before class or I'll be a bit on the "hungry/dizzy" side. So, I eat about 3 hours before the class and then the protein shake and 1/4 of a Jay Robb protein bar for the carbs afterwards. Seems to work out okay. We'll see what happens this month.

Quote:

Originally Posted by svenskamae

Interesting to read about potatoes being a staple for you in India, Shelley. Keytones and I can't put fat (such as eggs) in with our potatoes for the hack to work; some potato patties with carrots and green beans sound much more appealing than my staple of cold boiled potatoes with malt vinegar (supposedly cold potatoes work better than hot ones for the hack). I'd love to have some potato soup, but no milk for me.

I'm really impressed that you were organized enough to arrange for the 500 packages of toilet paper; I'd be calling or writing friends and family with desperate pleas to please send TP.

Can you have other veggies with your potatoes to make them into little veggie patties then? Even if they fall apart, it would be different for the taste buds. Sorry about the "no milk". I did that for years and then discovered I have no issues with greek yogurt and raw milk!

Ha ha on being "organized" for the packages of TP. We were told we might be there 5 years. So...how would any of you plan how many rolls of TP you would need to live somewhere for 5 years. It was really rather funny after a while of being upset at having no clue. We ended up selling it to other expats when we left. We worked for a shipping company so got ONE container to take in with us that the company paid import duty on. We took cases and cases of SF root beer, spam, TP, and spaghetti noodles (this was before I was diagnosed with gluten intolerance). We ran out of everything but the TP!!! ha ha

shelley · 03-01-2013, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Key Tones

Hi Shelley,

I don't know how I am doing since I don't weigh in until Friday. Well, I'm not going to be home so I guess I will weigh in tomorrow or Saturday. Today is day 3 back on the hack, so I don't think I have anything going on yet for weight loss since it shows up on day 4 or 5 for me.

I'm going through Splenda/sucralose withdrawal. Ugh, I want some!!! I'm using pure stevia and trying to get used to that. Um, bleah, but I will take it over having no sweetener.

Svenska - Otzi on MDA admits that his real life examples of the potato hack working are from people doing the standard american diet. I started it after getting into mischief between Thanksgiving and Christmas. I think your gut bacteria has to transition. Actually, I know this...I tried going vegan once after low carb (nuts fruit veg) and it made me sick as heck with digestive upsets and headaches.

I don't believe in hard core kick overs. Atkins made me so ill when I tried it in the early 90s I thought I was going to have to go to the emergency room with severe shakes and my husband out of exasperation insisted I eat some carbs. I did this twice and gave up. If I had just eased in, I might not have had to suffer gaining to 300# before figuring it out on my own many years later.

KT...how very interesting about your reaction to Atkins and the low carb back when you started it. I have always loved the low carb eating other than giving up peaches and apples and my GF treats (bread/muffins I would make myself). But when I did Atkins '72 I gained. When I did Weight Watchers, I gained. My only true weightloss was when doing heavy workouts with weights, lots of HIIT cardio on alternating days and eating HIGH protein and nonfat! Go figure. But I'm not going back to that as all scientific research says it's not good for you. That is why I don't understand this potato thing. That's pure carbs, no protein, no fat!

I do recall reading that if you picked one food item (anything...bananas, carrots, potatoes, steak) and ate only that one thing that the body would release weight and fat. My "old" brain just has to fuel myself with reasonable items and a variety for the nutrition of the vitamins and such in the "items". I can't seem to get past that part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Key Tones

Hmph, add a little fruit and you have the McDougall diet.

I just started reading his book. McDougall is spending some time disputing what paleo diets use as justification. Interesting, but I think a lot of that is a waste of time anyway. Like, the fat egyptians - I remember reading about this in Eades book as part of the proof of the age of agriculture causing poor health/obesity. McDougall said only the upper echelon were mummified, and they were eating the king's diet, not what the peasants ate, of course they were the fat ones, and their diets were verified by testing their hair. Makes sense-I guess this never proved anything. I gather he is about to get into "proof" his diet is best. Eveyone seems to be able to prove their diet is best by citing something.

Anyway, I agree with Kurt Harris that there aren't magical ratios for health, it is more about what not to eat. Don't eat flour, sugar, industrial seed oils (processed food).

Effective weight loss - ??? It starting to sound like only hacks work when weight loss gets hard - fat fast, protein fast, or potato fast. Is this what it has come to???

Yep, I'm kind of crabby coming off of Splenda/

I think I agree with your last statement about the "fasts" that seem to push us through stalls....i..e, potato hack, fat fast, etc. I think that is truly what it's all about. I lived in AK and think often of the Eskimos that really and truly only ate the whale blubber....my husband on business had to go to several villages and they were so proud to present him with blubber and organs (not musical!) and he said it was all he could do to not barf it back up. But they have absolutely no heart disease, no cavities, no health issues. They are very "compact" people. Not fat as we think of it as they have more of the "wrestler" look, but NOT fat. I have a friend like that. She's about 5' tall, very "overweight" in what we think of in America, but she swims a lot in the summer and is as wide as she is tall, but she has NO FAT on her legs and arms. NONE! I wish I could say that as my cellulite is now moving down to my ankles! Anyway, I think that's the theory of many body builders who talk about carb cycling and calorie cycling so that the body is always "surprised".....and not to eat the same things over and over as that also shocks the body. So, I just do NOT know!!!!! then you add in hormones and age and all that and it further complicates things. I think that's why I'm trying hard to be happy that I am healthy and trying hard to not worry about my appearance as long as I'm healthy, sleep well, and have a wonderful life. But it's sure hard to do when I was so underweight for most of my life!!!

shelley · 03-01-2013, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by svenskamae

Thanks, Key Tones. I think my gut bacteria are getting accustomed to a steady diet of potatoes, finally. For variety, I've swapped the malt vinegar for wheat-free tamari for dunking my cold potatoes. I'm down to 180 today (from a high of 183 on the potato hack), so I do seem to be losing a bit. (I hope I lose a bit more retained water when I go back to lowcarb.) If I keep losing on the potato hack, I'll keep with it until I visit my sister from March 15-26 (doing just JUDDD then), and return to it again in April, until I get to 169 or lower and into non-obese territory. I just hope it keeps working; I have a history of things working (NK, JUDDD, lowcarb) for a few weeks and then no longer doing anything.

Good luck on coping with the Splenda withdrawal, Key Tones. Have you ever tried L-Glutamine supplements? Some people on the main board swear by it to help with cravings.

Hey Svenskamae....congratulations on the 3# loss! That's a lot to lose! I'm impressed.

How fun that you'll be able to spend time with your sister. I have 3 sisters and haven't seen them in 3 years....too long. We hope to change that this summer.

I had trouble dropping the splenda but have been using the low carb stevia powder in tea and it's very nice. but I think it has some erythritol in it? But I only use it in tea, so it's hardly any.

shelley · 03-01-2013, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Key Tones

Svenska,

Suddenly I have bloated up and I woke up uncomfortable. I don't know if it was the switch to mashed potatoes this week with bone broth (these are too good - I can eat more of these I noticed), the suddenly not having skins, or the addition of kombucha and vinegar.

I definitely could do with more fiber today.

I do wonder if mashing until sticky alters the potatoes. I did much better when I just baked, microwaved, or boiled them.

I tried boiling these organic russets, but they fell apart both times so I ended up mashing. I will have to aboid boiling these.

I have tried the supplements before, the L-glutamine. They just collect dust in my cabinets. I think I enjoy buying supplements for my cabinets.

Oh, I hadn't thought of the Splenda halt causing a digestive upset. Hmmm
__________________

Just a thought...you were using a wonderful bag of yukon golds and above you mentioned russets. I do know that russets can cause inflammation whereas the white, yellow, red potatoes do not. Maybe go back to that Asian store for another bag of yukon golds?!?!!?!

I laughed over new supplements collecting dust in the cabinets. I can so relate to that! However, I feel that since I bought them that I have to finish the bottle and then never re-order. But I stopped that berberine pretty fast and it is collecting dust. Why can't I just toss it out???

shelley · 03-01-2013, 01:02 PM

Ginger tea is wonderful....there are several brands, but they all taste yummy to me, and are great for digestion issues.

Those fermented things like kombucha make be gag!!!! I can't do fermented or pickled anything. Those things really upset my stomach and I know they say they are wonderful for good health. The only thing I was ever able to tolerate was kefir...I think that's a form of fermentation but with milk? It was expensive, but I did like it. I take a probiotic with breakfast and it seems to work well. It's not one of the "biggies" that have lots of organisms...it's one with the fewest actually which is what the nutritionist told me to take.

Key Tones · 03-01-2013, 01:19 PM

Cathy - I was trying to get the most bang for my buck since I am eating starches. I have often wondered how much good there is in using probiotics on high fat/low carb when I'm not sending much down there to feed the beneficial gut bacteria anyway.

So, check out this article. I'll link it, but if it disappears, I'll copy paste. Yet another article about butyrate. In a comment at the very end, Chris Kresser recommends kombucha as an alternative (I don't like saurkraut, I am afraid of kimchee, and I am off dairy, so....)

The article is not about probiotics, it is an aside...just see the very bottom. I have also seen Jaminet say he picks up kombucha occasionally.

Whole Health Source: Butyric Acid: an Ancient Controller of Metabolism, Inflammation and Stress Resistance

Monday, December 7, 2009Butyric Acid: an Ancient Controller of Metabolism, Inflammation and Stress Resistance
An Interesting Finding

Susceptible strains of rodents fed high-fat diets overeat, gain fat and become profoundly insulin resistant. Dr. Jianping Ye's group recently published a paper showing that the harmful metabolic effects of a high-fat diet (lard and soybean oil) on mice can be prevented, and even reversed, using a short-chain saturated fatty acid called butyric acid (hereafter, butyrate). Here's a graph of the percent body fat over time of the two groups:

The butyrate-fed mice remained lean and avoided metabolic problems. Butyrate increased their energy expenditure by increasing body heat production and modestly increasing physical activity. It also massively increased the function of their mitochondria, the tiny power plants of the cell.

Butyrate lowered their blood cholesterol by approximately 25 percent, and their triglycerides by nearly 50 percent. It lowered their fasting insulin by nearly 50 percent, and increased their insulin sensitivity by nearly 300 percent*. The investigators concluded:

Butyrate and its derivatives may have potential application in the prevention and treatment of metabolic syndrome in humans.
There's one caveat, however: the butyrate group at less food. Something about the butyrate treatment caused their food intake to decline after 3 weeks, dropping roughly 20% by 10 weeks. The investigators cleverly tried to hide this by normalizing food intake to body weight, making it look like the food intake of the comparison group was dropping as well (when actually it was staying the same as this group was gaining weight).

I found this study thought-provoking, so I looked into butyrate further.

Butyrate Suppresses Inflammation in the Gut and Other Tissues

In most animals, the highest concentration of butyrate is found in the gut. That's because it's produced by intestinal bacteria from carbohydrate that the host cannot digest, such as cellulose and pectin. Indigestible carbohydrate is the main form of dietary fiber.

It turns out, butyrate has been around in the mammalian gut for so long that the lining of our large intestine has evolved to use it as its primary source of energy. It does more than just feed the bowel, however. It also has potent anti-inflammatory and anti-cancer effects. So much so, that investigators are using oral butyrate supplements and butyrate enemas to treat inflammatory bowel diseases such as Crohn's and ulcerative colitis. Investigators are also suggesting that inflammatory bowel disorders may be caused or exacerbated by a deficiency of butyrate in the first place.

Butyrate, and other short-chain fatty acids produced by gut bacteria**, has a remarkable effect on intestinal permeability. In tissue culture and live rats, short-chain fatty acids cause a large and rapid decrease in intestinal permeability. Butyrate, or dietary fiber, prevents the loss of intestinal premeability in rat models of ulcerative colitis. This shows that short-chain fatty acids, including butyrate, play an important role in the maintenance of gut barrier integrity. Impaired gut barrier integrity is associated with many diseases, including fatty liver, heart failure and autoimmune diseases (thanks to Pedro Bastos for this information-- I'll be covering the topic in more detail later).

Butyrate's role doesn't end in the gut. It's absorbed into the circulation, and may exert effects on the rest of the body as well. In human blood immune cells, butyrate is potently anti-inflammatory***.

Butyrate Increases Resistance to Metabolic and Physical Stress

Certain types of fiber reduce atherosclerosis in animal models, and this effect may be due to butyrate production produced when the fiber is fermented. Fiber intake was associated with lower blood markers of inflammation in the Women's Health Initiative study, and has been repeatedly associated with lower heart attack risk and reduced progression of atherosclerosis in humans. Butyrate also sharply reduces the harmful effects of type 1 diabetes in rats, as does dietary fiber to a lesser extent.

Butyrate increases the function and survival of mice with certain neurodegenerative diseases. Polyglutamine diseases, which are the most common class of genetic neurodegenerative diseases, are delayed in mice treated with butyrate (1, 2, 3). Many of you have probably heard of Huntington's disease, which is the most common of the class. I did my thesis on a polyglutamine disease called SCA7, and this is the first suggestion I've seen that diet may be able to modify its course.

Yet another interesting finding in the first paper I discussed: mice treated with butyrate were more cold-resistant than the comparison group. When they were both placed in a cold room, body temperature dropped quite a bit in the comparison group, while it remained relatively stable in the butyrate group, despite the fact that the butyrate group was leaner****. This was due to increased heat production in the butyrate group.

Due to the potent effect butyrate has on a number of bodily processes, I believe it may be a fundamental controller of metabolism, stress resistance and the immune system in mammals, similar to omega-6:3 balance.

An Ancient Line of Communication Between Symbiotic Organisms

Why does butyrate have so much control over inflammation? Let's think about where it comes from. Bacteria in the gut produce it. It's a source of energy, so our bodies take it up readily. It's one of the main molecules that passes from the symbiotic (helpful) bacteria in the gut to the rest of the body. It's only logical that the body would receive butyrate as a signal that there's a thriving colony of symbiotic bacteria in the gut, and induce a tolerance to them. The body may alter its immune response (inflammation) in order to permit a mutually beneficial relationship between itself and its symbionts.

A Change of Heart

Butyrate has caused me to re-think my position on fiber-- which was formerly that it's irrelevant at best. I felt that fiber came along with nutrient-dense whole plant foods, but was not beneficial per se. I believed that the associations between fiber intake and a lower risk of a number of diseases were probably due to the fact that wealthier, more educated, healthier people tend to buy more whole grains, fruit and vegetables. In other words, I believed that fiber intake was associated with better health, but did not contribute to it. I now feel, based on further reading about fiber and short-chain fatty acids like butyrate, that the associations represent a true cause-and-effect relationship.

I also didn't fully appreciate the caloric contribution of fiber to the human diet. In industrialized countries, fiber may contribute 5 to 10 percent of total calorie intake, due to its conversion to short-chain fatty acids like butyrate in the large intestine (free full text). This figure is probably at least twice as high in cultures consuming high-fiber diets. It's interesting to think that "high-carbohydrate" cultures may be getting easily 15 percent of their calories from short-chain fats. Since that isn't recorded in dietary surveys, they may appear more dependent on carbohydrate than they actually are. The Kitavans may be getting more than 30 percent of their total calories from fat, despite the fact that their food is only 21 percent fat when it passes their lips. Their calorie intake may be underestimated as well.

Sources of Butyrate

There are two main ways to get butyrate and other short-chain fatty acids. The first is to eat fiber and let your intestinal bacteria do the rest. Whole plant foods such as sweet potatoes, properly prepared whole grains, beans, vegetables, fruit and nuts are good sources of fiber. Refined foods such as white flour, white rice and sugar are very low in fiber. Clinical trials have shown that increasing dietary fiber increases butyrate production, and decreasing fiber decreases it (free full text).

Butyrate also occurs in significant amounts in food. What foods contain butyrate? Hmm, I wonder where the name BUTYR-ate came from? Butter perhaps? Butter is 3-4 percent butyrate, the richest known source. But everyone knows butter is bad for you, right?

After thinking about it, I've decided that butyrate must have been a principal component of Dr. Weston Price's legendary butter oil. Price used this oil in conjunction with high-vitamin cod liver oil to heal tooth decay and a number of other ailments in his patients. The method he used to produce it would have concentrated fats with a low melting temperature, including butyrate, in addition to vitamin K2*****. Thus, the combination of high-vitamin cod liver oil and butter oil would have provided a potent cocktail of fat-soluble vitamins (A, D3, K2), omega-3 fatty acids and butyrate. It's no wonder it was so effective in his patients.

* According to insulin tolerance test.

** Acetate (acetic acid, the main acid in vinegar), propionate and butyrate are the primary three fatty acids produced by intestinal fermentation.

*** The lowest concentration used in this study, 30 micromolar, is probably higher than the concentration in peripheral serum under normal circumstances. Human serum butyrate is in the range of 4 micromolar in British adults, and 29 micromolar in the hepatic portal vein which brings fats from the digestive tract to the liver (ref). This would likely be at least two-fold higher in populations eating high-fiber diets.

**** Due to higher mitochondrial density in brown fat and more mitochondrial uncoupling.

***** Slow crystallization, which selectively concentrates triglycerides with a low melting point.

Posted by Stephan Guyenet at 8:00 PM

= = = =

Stephan said...
Hi Girrlockholmes,

I'm not an expert on SIBO. My guess is that oral butyrate alone will probably not help a SIBO. However, raw fermented foods with a spectrum of short-chain fatty acids, probiotic bacteria and other gentle antimicrobials may help if tolerated. I'll give you some thoughts purely for informational purposes (discuss with your doc). Some of these will probably be obvious to you.

-Avoid fructose and all refined carbs. Fructose is your enemy.

-Be aware of food sensitivities, especially gluten and dairy. You may be sensitive to foods without realizing you're symptomatic, and without coming up positive on food sensitivity tests.

-Try out raw fermented food like sauerkraut (if tolerated), unfiltered raw vinegar, and kombucha that's been fermented enough that it's no longer sweet. I have a sauerkraut recipe on the blog. This may take a while to be effective.

-Balance n-6:3 by avoiding industrial seed oils and ensuring a modest but regular intake of omega-3. This has to do with gut wall permeability and resistance to the inflammatory effects of infection. This is also a long-term strategy.

-Stomach acid is critical in avoiding SIBO. Proton pump blocking drugs used for indigestion and ulcers cause SIBO in rodents and humans alike. Antacids like Tums will do the same. You may think about experimenting with betaine HCl pills (HCl is stomach acid) to restore stomach acidity if that's a problem (it's fairly common).

Just some ideas. Please keep us updated and let us know if you have success with any of these approaches or others.

January 12, 2010 at 10:38 AM

svenskamae · 03-01-2013, 02:14 PM

Thanks for a really informative post, Key Tones. Now I feel like a ought to learn more about this Butyrate ... I think that gut dysbiosis and other digestive issues are probably under-recognized issues in weight loss and weight loss resistence. Thank goodness hormonal factors are getting some recognition instead of just calories in, calories out, but I don't think that's the whole story.

Hi, Shelley!

I'll be back to talk to you more.

svenskamae · 03-01-2013, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelley

Ginger tea is wonderful....there are several brands, but they all taste yummy to me, and are great for digestion issues.

Those fermented things like kombucha make be gag!!!! I can't do fermented or pickled anything. Those things really upset my stomach and I know they say they are wonderful for good health. The only thing I was ever able to tolerate was kefir...I think that's a form of fermentation but with milk? It was expensive, but I did like it. I take a probiotic with breakfast and it seems to work well. It's not one of the "biggies" that have lots of organisms...it's one with the fewest actually which is what the nutritionist told me to take.

Can you tolerate yogurt with active live cultures, Shelley? That's another option for probiotics. Or the coconut pudding called "Cocoyo" (coconut milk, active cultures and stevia) that is pretty good and sold in the yogurt section of my food co-op. Maybe in very small servings (e.g., a Tablespoon or so) would work, until you built up more tolerance? Raw milk cheeses are another thing that might work for you and may have some of the benefits (though I don't know if the cheese culture still counts as live by the time it's sold).

svenskamae · 03-01-2013, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelley

Just a thought...you were using a wonderful bag of yukon golds and above you mentioned russets. I do know that russets can cause inflammation whereas the white, yellow, red potatoes do not. Maybe go back to that Asian store for another bag of yukon golds?!?!!?!

I laughed over new supplements collecting dust in the cabinets. I can so relate to that! However, I feel that since I bought them that I have to finish the bottle and then never re-order. But I stopped that berberine pretty fast and it is collecting dust. Why can't I just toss it out???

Why did you give up the berberine fast, Shelley? Cathy, why did you stop taking it? Did it make you feel ill or just not do anything?

The person in the supplements section of my food coop said that they didn't stock Berberine because it was supposed to stress the liver too much. Instead, she sold me a supplement which was less refined--maybe goldenseal or goldenrod or something like that?

Anyway, I took it a couple of times, but the capsules leave a horrible taste in my mouth that makes me gag, so that's collecting dust in my cupboard now.

svenskamae · 03-01-2013, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelley

Hey Svenskamae....congratulations on the 3# loss! That's a lot to lose! I'm impressed.

How fun that you'll be able to spend time with your sister. I have 3 sisters and haven't seen them in 3 years....too long. We hope to change that this summer.

I had trouble dropping the splenda but have been using the low carb stevia powder in tea and it's very nice. but I think it has some erythritol in it? But I only use it in tea, so it's hardly any.

Thanks, Shelley. I hope it's a real loss and not just a return to my set point, which could be the case if the potatoes aren't causing me to retain water. I'll feel more confident about the loss when I get to 178 or lower.

I do notice that I've lost a little weight in my hands and wrists; the bones show up in my hands more (a little bit, under the pudginess), and I can encircle my wrists with my stubby, plump little fingers. I'm an endomorph, for sure.

Here's what I found online for "Typical traits of an Endomorph":
- soft and round body
- gains fat very easily
- is generally short
- finds it hard to lose fat
- slow metabolism
- round physique
- small hands and feet

Who here fits that description?

I do, I do!

I hope you get to have fun with your sisters soon, Shelley.

Why do you want to avoid erithrytol? It seems to be about the most popular sweetener among people on the main board. I'm just avoiding sweeteners, period, but I thought that one was relatively okay.

svenskamae · 03-01-2013, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelley

Great news on the closing of the house and $$$ in the checking account. It's nice to have things "finished".

Thanks for the good wishes. The check should clear by Tuesday, and I'll pay of the remainder of my mortgage then.

I worked out again yesterday and then we had a long chat about our expectations and our goals and such. We have both gained 1-2 pant sizes in the 2 years since we did this together. Discussion on food and such told us that for our bodies, the missing link seems to be the heavy duty weight lifting of going to failure in the muscles. That's totally against the NK way of doing things and maybe that is why this is not working for me.

I have read a few things suggesting that heavy lifting to the point of failure of the muscles is excellent for reducing insulin resistence. Once it is no longer so cold and icy to walk in my neighborhood (i.e., in April), I intend to try signing up at an exercise studio within walking distance that is designed to provide just such workouts (in supervised 15 minute sessions twice a week). That's the sort of exercise advised in Jonathan Bailor's book, The Smarter Science of Slim. I think it would be okay for me on NK, but NK seems to agree with me much more than it does with you.

I'm doing lowcarb, moderate fat and higher protein on the days I work out, and (here we go), I even had a slice of GF toast with my breakfast that day. I can't not eat before class or I'll be a bit on the "hungry/dizzy" side. So, I eat about 3 hours before the class and then the protein shake and 1/4 of a Jay Robb protein bar for the carbs afterwards. Seems to work out okay. We'll see what happens this month.

I'm glad you've found something makes you feel good and works with your workouts. Keep us posted on how it goes for you.

Can you have other veggies with your potatoes to make them into little veggie patties then? Even if they fall apart, it would be different for the taste buds. Sorry about the "no milk". I did that for years and then discovered I have no issues with greek yogurt and raw milk!

The main things to avoid when doing the potato hack are eating fat, sugar, or protein along with the potatoes. I might be able to add other veggies, but I'd worry about diluting the effect if I add more than seasoning. I'd rather have fewer days of super boring food that brought more weightloss than more days of less boring food. If I add anything to the potato hack, I think it will be some eggs or liver, eaten 4 hours away from when potatoes are eaten.

Tonight I had a LOT of fat in a dinner with friends: steak with bernaise sauce, caesar salad, sauteed brussel sprouts, and coffee with cream. (Others ordered chocolate desserts but I didn't and didn't feel deprived.)
I am stuffed, and it will oddly enough be a bit of a relief to have a spartan potato day tomorrow.

Ha ha on being "organized" for the packages of TP. We were told we might be there 5 years. So...how would any of you plan how many rolls of TP you would need to live somewhere for 5 years. It was really rather funny after a while of being upset at having no clue. We ended up selling it to other expats when we left. We worked for a shipping company so got ONE container to take in with us that the company paid import duty on. We took cases and cases of SF root beer, spam, TP, and spaghetti noodles (this was before I was diagnosed with gluten intolerance). We ran out of everything but the TP!!! ha ha

I wonder what I'd consider essential to pack for 5 years' supplies. TP was a good idea, even if hard to estimate the amount. I think I'd pack cases of tinned fish and oysters, cases of jars of coconut butter, and lots of jars of nuts and nut butter. I wonder what I'd run out of first?

Speck333 · 03-01-2013, 11:32 PM

Hellllooooo everyone!! Hangin' tough over here. Just wanted to pop in and say hello. I caught up on reading everyone's progress. I'm seriously considering the potato hack this summer when I don't have work to deal with (as much). In the meantime, just trying to keep it as clean as possible and hope to have some progress. At least I feel pretty good.

svenskamae · 03-02-2013, 07:21 AM

Hi, Speck! Good to hear from you and hope you do have some progress. I'll be potato hacking this week and posting on how it goes, so you can continue to evaluate the hack based on my and Key Tones' experience.

I had some delicious food yesterday: Cobb Salad with grilled shrimp and lime dressing for lunch, top-grade steak with bernaise sauce, Ceasar side salad, sauteed Brussel sprouts, and coffee for dinner. That was a lot of rich food, though, especially at dinner, and I'm actually looking forward (a bit) to being back to potatoes today.

I just signed up, by email, for a CSA farm share, for 6 months, starting in May. Deliveries every other week of duck eggs, fresh organic veggies, goats milk soap, wildflower bouquet. I hope that I don't get a lot of corn and other starchy stuff that I don't eat, but I guess I can leave that out on the counter at work, when it happens. It won't be the first time I've put out food at work with a "free" sign.

Key Tones · 03-02-2013, 11:22 AM

So, 3 days off due to social events and 4 days on the potato hack, 2 of the on days imperfect, and I am still down another pound this week. I weighed in on the honey badger's thread at 197. Pre-hack was 213. I've been off a lot of the days too...

I am reading McDougall's starch solution book. I cannot believe this. It is easiest weight loss than I have ever had. My pants are falling off and people are stopping me at work to tell me they can really see it.

McDougall says I can eat all kinds of starches but if no weight loss, he has a newsletter that says cut the starches back to just potatoes and winter squash (someone on MDA credited him with the original idea for the potato hack because of this newsletter from 2006). I gather I can eat vegetables and maybe some fruit, but I am not far enough into the book to tell yet what exactly I can eat. He has a testimonial with pictures from a woman age 60 that lost 92 pounds in 18 months eating his diet. He says he does not need the "results not typical" disclaimer for his diet and all the testimonials, he says that it absolutely works if people do it.

He says it reverses heart disease, diabetes, and repeatedly says arthritis, which I find interesting. He talks about arthritis improving a lot. I have all this inflamation and tendonitis, finger/arms (I am a pianist and I play guitar too, I'm an accountant always doing spreadsheet work), now hips and knee problems, and so far, I have to say it it sooo much better. Acid test would be if I start the stair climbing again. I should just to see.

I'm going to go shopping. I'm going to make fat free hummus and see if I still lose weight. I can put it on the potatoes anyway! Maybe make the oven chips or something. I also need pants. Good grief, finally, the hips are getting smaller.

OMG...I can't believe I have been working so hard all these years and suddenly it is easy.

Key Tones · 03-02-2013, 11:24 AM

Hi Speck!

Svenska - McDougall says corn is OK on his diet. I am thinking about using it as a condiment on potatoes. I love mashed potatoes with corn. I do eat too much when I mash potatoes with broth, and maybe corn would slow things down, but hey, I still lost weight this week anyway!

Speck333 · 03-02-2013, 11:30 AM

KT, I'm so happy for you. How much have you lost all together and how long have you been doing this?
Maybe I'll try the hack sooner than summer. I'm so tired of being overweight, and restricting and getting no results. Tired enough to cook meals for my family and eat potatoes for myself? Maybe.

Key Tones · 03-02-2013, 11:37 AM

Cathy - I just received my Body for Life Book!

Key Tones · 03-02-2013, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speck333

KT, I'm so happy for you. How much have you lost all together and how long have you been doing this?
Maybe I'll try the hack sooner than summer. I'm so tired of being overweight, and restricting and getting no results. Tired enough to cook meals for my family and eat potatoes for myself? Maybe.

I'll check the honey badgers spreadsheet. Be right back. I'll update this post below.

OK, it was around 1/18.

I know for sure I have had at least 9 days off due to social events, birthdays, Valentine's Day and I'm still down.

I forgot to mention the 60 year old woman that lost 92 pounds made it to thin. She is 130 pounds (not sure how tall) but her picture looks fabulous.

Key Tones · 03-02-2013, 11:46 AM

and thank you, Speck. I hope it works for you if you give it a try. It has been quite the miracle for me.

svenskamae · 03-02-2013, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Key Tones

So, 3 days off due to social events and 4 days on the potato hack, 2 of the on days imperfect, and I am still down another pound this week. I weighed in on the honey badger's thread at 197. Pre-hack was 213. I've been off a lot of the days too...

I am reading McDougall's starch solution book. I cannot believe this. It is easiest weight loss than I have ever had. My pants are falling off and people are stopping me at work to tell me they can really see it.

McDougall says I can eat all kinds of starches but if no weight loss, he has a newsletter that says cut the starches back to just potatoes and winter squash (someone on MDA credited him with the original idea for the potato hack because of this newsletter from 2006). I gather I can eat vegetables and maybe some fruit, but I am not far enough into the book to tell yet what exactly I can eat. He has a testimonial with pictures from a woman age 60 that lost 92 pounds in 18 months eating his diet. He says he does not need the "results not typical" disclaimer for his diet and all the testimonials, he says that it absolutely works if people do it.

He says it reverses heart disease, diabetes, and repeatedly says arthritis, which I find interesting. He talks about arthritis improving a lot. I have all this inflamation and tendonitis, finger/arms (I am a pianist and I play guitar too, I'm an accountant always doing spreadsheet work), now hips and knee problems, and so far, I have to say it it sooo much better. Acid test would be if I start the stair climbing again. I should just to see.

I'm going to go shopping. I'm going to make fat free hummus and see if I still lose weight. I can put it on the potatoes anyway! Maybe make the oven chips or something. I also need pants. Good grief, finally, the hips are getting smaller.

OMG...I can't believe I have been working so hard all these years and suddenly it is easy.

I guess I should read the McDougall book, too. I am dubious about this working for me because I didn't lose a bit of weight about 6 years ago when I did an elimination diet/cleanse a month without meat/wheat/eggs/dairy, etc. Just rice and veggies and legumes and fruit--and no weight loss. Not. An. Ounce.

Potatoes do seem to be working for me,

so I'm staying with that for the time being.

But I am really happy that you've had such success, Key Tones, in terms of weight loss and reduced pain and inflammation.

Thank you for posting the details and results regularly here.

Is eating the starches without fat or added protein key to the McDougall plan? Or just to the potato hack?

Key Tones · 03-02-2013, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by svenskamae

I guess I should read the McDougall book, too. I am dubious about this working for me because I didn't lose a bit of weight about 6 years ago when I did an elimination diet/cleanse a month without meat/wheat/eggs/dairy, etc. Just rice and veggies and legumes and fruit--and no weight loss. Not. An. Ounce.

Potatoes do seem to be working for me,

so I'm staying with that for the time being.

But I am really happy that you've had such success, Key Tones, in terms of weight loss and reduced pain and inflammation.

Thank you for posting the details and results regularly here.

Is eating the starches without fat or added protein key to the McDougall plan? Or just to the potato hack?

Svenska - I did Furhman's diet and felt sick/could not lose weight. I could not stick with it was the problem. I wish I had tried McDougall instead. Also, I can do the intermittent fast, eat only every other day, get crabby enough to scare everyone, and not lose any weight.

IF the key to this thing is resistant starch, then you would think fat-free hummus should not interfere. I'll see. If it is just plain old satiety index coupled with the mono-diet effect, well, then potatos only is the hack way to go.

No fat, no flour, and no sugar are obvious keys to success on this.

OK, I just got back from the Indian grocer. I have the chick peas. I bought a different variety than last time - these are smaller and darker. The lighter, big ones gave me horrible gas no matter what last time I tried it (I even tried peeling the darned little things). I even tried canned instead of dried. Bad gas. Why the store-prepared hummus does not do this is beyond me. Maybe they just cook it longer or blend it better. I'm going to cook these things to death in the crock pot and then blend the heck out of them in the vitamix.

Here's hoping!

Key Tones · 03-02-2013, 01:41 PM

The invention of the potato hack???

From McDougall's Newsletter June 2006:

In the early 1980s we (John and Mary) went on an “all potato and greens” diet for 10 days—just for the experience. We had hash browns for breakfast, baked potatoes and steamed frozen vegetables for lunch, and mashed potatoes with a salad for dinner. Yes, we were bored towards the end, but we each lost 10 pounds, felt great, and continued our love for potatoes.

Mobear · 03-03-2013, 06:31 AM

Good morning stalled but stubborn friends

. I haven't dropped off the face of the earth...just reading but not saying much. Svenskamae I am so glad that you have finalized the sale of your mothers home and are going to visit your sister. Sounds very nice! I too am an endomorph

Key Tones I am amazed and delighted by your continued success with the potato hack. After reading the "sleep" thread in the Main Lobby, I have decided to go wild

and have a very small (35g) boiled redskin potato before bed. I understand that salt is ok but no fat. Also, I read that fat and protein must be avoided for 4 hours before the potato. I have to confess that I am absolutely desparate for sleep. I already take relora, melatonin, and 5Htp and calcium....but often they don't seem to help at all. I've been avoiding the computer for a couple of hours before bed and if I do use it I put on orange glasses....but well it doesn't seem to matter.

I've regained up to my stall weight

. I was trying very hard to replicate my eating pattern from November/December when I was losing, but couldn't quite get the protein down to 48g consistently. I also realized that I was eating an enormous amount of fat...one day I ate 150g! My fasting blood glucose was terrible - up around 130 - 150 for several days! So, I've had to rethink things. Right now I've doing LC with protein around 55g, fat no more than 100g, carbs about 30g total.

I had a very interesting visit with an endo who may help me. She tossed out a lot of things I don't agree with but I did not argue with her as I am hoping she will help with what I think of as my "thyroid" issue. My free T3 is at 2.2 with the bottom of the lab range being 2.0. Honestly, I think this a big problem as I am frequently so very exhaused I could cry.

Also, we talked about my sleep issues. She may order a sleep study. I will be doing a lot of blood work, but cortisol testing will have to wait until I am off the steroid eye drops for 6weeks. She is also going to do a test - I think it is called peptide - which will determine if I am producing insulin. Even though I have greatly reduced the meal time insulin (thanks to LC), I am still taking 35u of Lantus for my long acting insulin. The doctor mentioned exercise, but I'm only willing to walk and maybe do something at home with a DVD. Being 64 yrs old, I am not real flexible on this issue

I'm not giving up on NK...but am seriously wondering if it will ever work for me.

Speck333 its nice to see you. Maybe the potato hack will work for you as it has for Key Tones and maybe for Svenskamae as well. If I wasn't so afraid of killing myself, I would probably give it a try.

Shelley it seems that you are reaching a more peaceful place with health and happy life ahead of weight. Good for you!

Cathy and drjlocarb hope you are both doing ok. I looked through the NK threads and am disappointed that Kristn is missing. Cathy you mentioned someplace that you still aren't losing...so sorry to hear that. What about drjlocarb...your NK blood ketones looked good...have you had a weight loss?

Sorry this is so long...but it is feels good to tell my friends what I am doing.

svenskamae · 03-03-2013, 10:17 AM

I'm sorry you're having so much trouble with weight and sleep, both, Maureen. Have you tried taking a warm epson salt bath before going to be? Lots of magnesium there, which is supposed help with sleep, and a muscle relaxant ... Maybe just one more thing to try, anyway. The macros that you are going to try to follow sound very reasonable to me.

I hope that your endo turns out to be helpful and orders the sleep study.

If you want to try using exercise DVDs at home, let me know if you want recommendations for ones aimed at an older/senior audience. Those are what I have used, and I have found some that I like.

02-28-2013, 06:38 AM	#1411
Key Tones Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,547 Gallery: Key Tones Stats: 312/195/? Down 117 Start Date: LC start 2005; Now a paleo potato hacker!	Svenska, Suddenly I have bloated up and I woke up uncomfortable. I don't know if it was the switch to mashed potatoes this week with bone broth (these are too good - I can eat more of these I noticed), the suddenly not having skins, or the addition of kombucha and vinegar. I definitely could do with more fiber today. I do wonder if mashing until sticky alters the potatoes. I did much better when I just baked, microwaved, or boiled them. I tried boiling these organic russets, but they fell apart both times so I ended up mashing. I will have to aboid boiling these. I have tried the supplements before, the L-glutamine. They just collect dust in my cabinets. I think I enjoy buying supplements for my cabinets. Oh, I hadn't thought of the Splenda halt causing a digestive upset. Hmmm __________________ __________________ I have insulin resistance-my posts are biased for this! High fructose diets destroy liver's insulin sensitivity. Glutens bind up insulin and leptin receptors, interfering with satiety. Industrial vegetable oils contribute to inflammation of the liver that is part of metabolic syndrome. Read archevore/Kurt Harris for more info. Exercised muscles will up regulate insulin receptors.

03-02-2013, 07:21 AM	#1429
svenskamae Major LCF Poster! Join Date: May 2012 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 2,927 Gallery: svenskamae Stats: 235/178/135 5'3" WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD Start Date: January 15, 2012	Hi, Speck! Good to hear from you and hope you do have some progress. I'll be potato hacking this week and posting on how it goes, so you can continue to evaluate the hack based on my and Key Tones' experience. I had some delicious food yesterday: Cobb Salad with grilled shrimp and lime dressing for lunch, top-grade steak with bernaise sauce, Ceasar side salad, sauteed Brussel sprouts, and coffee for dinner. That was a lot of rich food, though, especially at dinner, and I'm actually looking forward (a bit) to being back to potatoes today. I just signed up, by email, for a CSA farm share, for 6 months, starting in May. Deliveries every other week of duck eggs, fresh organic veggies, goats milk soap, wildflower bouquet. I hope that I don't get a lot of corn and other starchy stuff that I don't eat, but I guess I can leave that out on the counter at work, when it happens. It won't be the first time I've put out food at work with a "free" sign. Last edited by svenskamae; 03-02-2013 at 07:24 AM..

03-02-2013, 11:22 AM	#1430
Key Tones Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,547 Gallery: Key Tones Stats: 312/195/? Down 117 Start Date: LC start 2005; Now a paleo potato hacker!	So, 3 days off due to social events and 4 days on the potato hack, 2 of the on days imperfect, and I am still down another pound this week. I weighed in on the honey badger's thread at 197. Pre-hack was 213. I've been off a lot of the days too... I am reading McDougall's starch solution book. I cannot believe this. It is easiest weight loss than I have ever had. My pants are falling off and people are stopping me at work to tell me they can really see it. McDougall says I can eat all kinds of starches but if no weight loss, he has a newsletter that says cut the starches back to just potatoes and winter squash (someone on MDA credited him with the original idea for the potato hack because of this newsletter from 2006). I gather I can eat vegetables and maybe some fruit, but I am not far enough into the book to tell yet what exactly I can eat. He has a testimonial with pictures from a woman age 60 that lost 92 pounds in 18 months eating his diet. He says he does not need the "results not typical" disclaimer for his diet and all the testimonials, he says that it absolutely works if people do it. He says it reverses heart disease, diabetes, and repeatedly says arthritis, which I find interesting. He talks about arthritis improving a lot. I have all this inflamation and tendonitis, finger/arms (I am a pianist and I play guitar too, I'm an accountant always doing spreadsheet work), now hips and knee problems, and so far, I have to say it it sooo much better. Acid test would be if I start the stair climbing again. I should just to see. I'm going to go shopping. I'm going to make fat free hummus and see if I still lose weight. I can put it on the potatoes anyway! Maybe make the oven chips or something. I also need pants. Good grief, finally, the hips are getting smaller. OMG...I can't believe I have been working so hard all these years and suddenly it is easy. Last edited by Key Tones; 03-02-2013 at 11:26 AM..

03-02-2013, 01:41 PM	#1438
Key Tones Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,547 Gallery: Key Tones Stats: 312/195/? Down 117 Start Date: LC start 2005; Now a paleo potato hacker!	The invention of the potato hack??? From McDougall's Newsletter June 2006: In the early 1980s we (John and Mary) went on an “all potato and greens” diet for 10 days—just for the experience. We had hash browns for breakfast, baked potatoes and steamed frozen vegetables for lunch, and mashed potatoes with a salad for dinner. Yes, we were bored towards the end, but we each lost 10 pounds, felt great, and continued our love for potatoes. Last edited by Key Tones; 03-02-2013 at 01:45 PM..

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02-28-2013, 08:38 AM	#1412
Key Tones Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,547 Gallery: Key Tones Stats: 312/195/? Down 117 Start Date: LC start 2005; Now a paleo potato hacker!	I just googled kombucha and bloating. Apparently, this is a common reaction to first drinking it. People call it a detox as the gut bacteria changes over. I guess

02-28-2013, 08:46 AM	#1413
svenskamae Major LCF Poster! Join Date: May 2012 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 2,927 Gallery: svenskamae Stats: 235/178/135 5'3" WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD Start Date: January 15, 2012	Hi, Key Tones, sorry you are feeling uncomfortable today. I'm not surprised that the kombucha caused bloating; that happens to me every time I try a new kind of probiotic (e.g., kimchi, probiotic supplement pills). The longest it lasted for me was 2 days. Maybe drinking loads of lemon water or ginger tea would help you; those are my go-to treatments for that. I've been eating organic fingerlings boiled, cold, with salt and either wheatfree tamari or malt vinegar. I thought that I might not get the same effect if I ate the potatoes hot, so I've stuck to cold, but if I do this much longer, I'm going to add mashed with broth to my potato menu.

02-28-2013, 08:58 AM	#1414
Key Tones Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,547 Gallery: Key Tones Stats: 312/195/? Down 117 Start Date: LC start 2005; Now a paleo potato hacker!	Ah, I'm going to my sweetheart's house tonight. He has a box of ginger tea! Sounds good, thank you! I thought you might reply - you seemed to have read/tried more things than I have ever heard of!

03-01-2013, 12:20 PM	#1416
svenskamae Major LCF Poster! Join Date: May 2012 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 2,927 Gallery: svenskamae Stats: 235/178/135 5'3" WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD Start Date: January 15, 2012	Probiotics that you can drink, as I understand it.

03-01-2013, 01:02 PM	#1421
shelley Senior LCF Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 844 Gallery: shelley	Ginger tea is wonderful....there are several brands, but they all taste yummy to me, and are great for digestion issues. Those fermented things like kombucha make be gag!!!! I can't do fermented or pickled anything. Those things really upset my stomach and I know they say they are wonderful for good health. The only thing I was ever able to tolerate was kefir...I think that's a form of fermentation but with milk? It was expensive, but I did like it. I take a probiotic with breakfast and it seems to work well. It's not one of the "biggies" that have lots of organisms...it's one with the fewest actually which is what the nutritionist told me to take.

03-01-2013, 01:19 PM	#1422
Key Tones Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,547 Gallery: Key Tones Stats: 312/195/? Down 117 Start Date: LC start 2005; Now a paleo potato hacker!	Cathy - I was trying to get the most bang for my buck since I am eating starches. I have often wondered how much good there is in using probiotics on high fat/low carb when I'm not sending much down there to feed the beneficial gut bacteria anyway. So, check out this article. I'll link it, but if it disappears, I'll copy paste. Yet another article about butyrate. In a comment at the very end, Chris Kresser recommends kombucha as an alternative (I don't like saurkraut, I am afraid of kimchee, and I am off dairy, so....) The article is not about probiotics, it is an aside...just see the very bottom. I have also seen Jaminet say he picks up kombucha occasionally. Whole Health Source: Butyric Acid: an Ancient Controller of Metabolism, Inflammation and Stress Resistance Monday, December 7, 2009Butyric Acid: an Ancient Controller of Metabolism, Inflammation and Stress Resistance An Interesting Finding Susceptible strains of rodents fed high-fat diets overeat, gain fat and become profoundly insulin resistant. Dr. Jianping Ye's group recently published a paper showing that the harmful metabolic effects of a high-fat diet (lard and soybean oil) on mice can be prevented, and even reversed, using a short-chain saturated fatty acid called butyric acid (hereafter, butyrate). Here's a graph of the percent body fat over time of the two groups: The butyrate-fed mice remained lean and avoided metabolic problems. Butyrate increased their energy expenditure by increasing body heat production and modestly increasing physical activity. It also massively increased the function of their mitochondria, the tiny power plants of the cell. Butyrate lowered their blood cholesterol by approximately 25 percent, and their triglycerides by nearly 50 percent. It lowered their fasting insulin by nearly 50 percent, and increased their insulin sensitivity by nearly 300 percent. The investigators concluded: Butyrate and its derivatives may have potential application in the prevention and treatment of metabolic syndrome in humans. There's one caveat, however: the butyrate group at less food. Something about the butyrate treatment caused their food intake to decline after 3 weeks, dropping roughly 20% by 10 weeks. The investigators cleverly tried to hide this by normalizing food intake to body weight, making it look like the food intake of the comparison group was dropping as well (when actually it was staying the same as this group was gaining weight). I found this study thought-provoking, so I looked into butyrate further. Butyrate Suppresses Inflammation in the Gut and Other Tissues In most animals, the highest concentration of butyrate is found in the gut. That's because it's produced by intestinal bacteria from carbohydrate that the host cannot digest, such as cellulose and pectin. Indigestible carbohydrate is the main form of dietary fiber. It turns out, butyrate has been around in the mammalian gut for so long that the lining of our large intestine has evolved to use it as its primary source of energy. It does more than just feed the bowel, however. It also has potent anti-inflammatory and anti-cancer effects. So much so, that investigators are using oral butyrate supplements and butyrate enemas to treat inflammatory bowel diseases such as Crohn's and ulcerative colitis. Investigators are also suggesting that inflammatory bowel disorders may be caused or exacerbated by a deficiency of butyrate in the first place. Butyrate, and other short-chain fatty acids produced by gut bacteria, has a remarkable effect on intestinal permeability. In tissue culture and live rats, short-chain fatty acids cause a large and rapid decrease in intestinal permeability. Butyrate, or dietary fiber, prevents the loss of intestinal premeability in rat models of ulcerative colitis. This shows that short-chain fatty acids, including butyrate, play an important role in the maintenance of gut barrier integrity. Impaired gut barrier integrity is associated with many diseases, including fatty liver, heart failure and autoimmune diseases (thanks to Pedro Bastos for this information-- I'll be covering the topic in more detail later). Butyrate's role doesn't end in the gut. It's absorbed into the circulation, and may exert effects on the rest of the body as well. In human blood immune cells, butyrate is potently anti-inflammatory. Butyrate Increases Resistance to Metabolic and Physical Stress Certain types of fiber reduce atherosclerosis in animal models, and this effect may be due to butyrate production produced when the fiber is fermented. Fiber intake was associated with lower blood markers of inflammation in the Women's Health Initiative study, and has been repeatedly associated with lower heart attack risk and reduced progression of atherosclerosis in humans. Butyrate also sharply reduces the harmful effects of type 1 diabetes in rats, as does dietary fiber to a lesser extent. Butyrate increases the function and survival of mice with certain neurodegenerative diseases. Polyglutamine diseases, which are the most common class of genetic neurodegenerative diseases, are delayed in mice treated with butyrate (1, 2, 3). Many of you have probably heard of Huntington's disease, which is the most common of the class. I did my thesis on a polyglutamine disease called SCA7, and this is the first suggestion I've seen that diet may be able to modify its course. Yet another interesting finding in the first paper I discussed: mice treated with butyrate were more cold-resistant than the comparison group. When they were both placed in a cold room, body temperature dropped quite a bit in the comparison group, while it remained relatively stable in the butyrate group, despite the fact that the butyrate group was leaner. This was due to increased heat production in the butyrate group. Due to the potent effect butyrate has on a number of bodily processes, I believe it may be a fundamental controller of metabolism, stress resistance and the immune system in mammals, similar to omega-6:3 balance. An Ancient Line of Communication Between Symbiotic Organisms Why does butyrate have so much control over inflammation? Let's think about where it comes from. Bacteria in the gut produce it. It's a source of energy, so our bodies take it up readily. It's one of the main molecules that passes from the symbiotic (helpful) bacteria in the gut to the rest of the body. It's only logical that the body would receive butyrate as a signal that there's a thriving colony of symbiotic bacteria in the gut, and induce a tolerance to them. The body may alter its immune response (inflammation) in order to permit a mutually beneficial relationship between itself and its symbionts. A Change of Heart Butyrate has caused me to re-think my position on fiber-- which was formerly that it's irrelevant at best. I felt that fiber came along with nutrient-dense whole plant foods, but was not beneficial per se. I believed that the associations between fiber intake and a lower risk of a number of diseases were probably due to the fact that wealthier, more educated, healthier people tend to buy more whole grains, fruit and vegetables. In other words, I believed that fiber intake was associated with better health, but did not contribute to it. I now feel, based on further reading about fiber and short-chain fatty acids like butyrate, that the associations represent a true cause-and-effect relationship. I also didn't fully appreciate the caloric contribution of fiber to the human diet. In industrialized countries, fiber may contribute 5 to 10 percent of total calorie intake, due to its conversion to short-chain fatty acids like butyrate in the large intestine (free full text). This figure is probably at least twice as high in cultures consuming high-fiber diets. It's interesting to think that "high-carbohydrate" cultures may be getting easily 15 percent of their calories from short-chain fats. Since that isn't recorded in dietary surveys, they may appear more dependent on carbohydrate than they actually are. The Kitavans may be getting more than 30 percent of their total calories from fat, despite the fact that their food is only 21 percent fat when it passes their lips. Their calorie intake may be underestimated as well. Sources of Butyrate There are two main ways to get butyrate and other short-chain fatty acids. The first is to eat fiber and let your intestinal bacteria do the rest. Whole plant foods such as sweet potatoes, properly prepared whole grains, beans, vegetables, fruit and nuts are good sources of fiber. Refined foods such as white flour, white rice and sugar are very low in fiber. Clinical trials have shown that increasing dietary fiber increases butyrate production, and decreasing fiber decreases it (free full text). Butyrate also occurs in significant amounts in food. What foods contain butyrate? Hmm, I wonder where the name BUTYR-ate came from? Butter perhaps? Butter is 3-4 percent butyrate, the richest known source. But everyone knows butter is bad for you, right? After thinking about it, I've decided that butyrate must have been a principal component of Dr. Weston Price's legendary butter oil. Price used this oil in conjunction with high-vitamin cod liver oil to heal tooth decay and a number of other ailments in his patients. The method he used to produce it would have concentrated fats with a low melting temperature, including butyrate, in addition to vitamin K2**. Thus, the combination of high-vitamin cod liver oil and butter oil would have provided a potent cocktail of fat-soluble vitamins (A, D3, K2), omega-3 fatty acids and butyrate. It's no wonder it was so effective in his patients. According to insulin tolerance test. Acetate (acetic acid, the main acid in vinegar), propionate and butyrate are the primary three fatty acids produced by intestinal fermentation. * The lowest concentration used in this study, 30 micromolar, is probably higher than the concentration in peripheral serum under normal circumstances. Human serum butyrate is in the range of 4 micromolar in British adults, and 29 micromolar in the hepatic portal vein which brings fats from the digestive tract to the liver (ref). This would likely be at least two-fold higher in populations eating high-fiber diets. ** Due to higher mitochondrial density in brown fat and more mitochondrial uncoupling. *** Slow crystallization, which selectively concentrates triglycerides with a low melting point. Posted by Stephan Guyenet at 8:00 PM = = = = Stephan said... Hi Girrlockholmes, I'm not an expert on SIBO. My guess is that oral butyrate alone will probably not help a SIBO. However, raw fermented foods with a spectrum of short-chain fatty acids, probiotic bacteria and other gentle antimicrobials may help if tolerated. I'll give you some thoughts purely for informational purposes (discuss with your doc). Some of these will probably be obvious to you. -Avoid fructose and all refined carbs. Fructose is your enemy. -Be aware of food sensitivities, especially gluten and dairy. You may be sensitive to foods without realizing you're symptomatic, and without coming up positive on food sensitivity tests. -Try out raw fermented food like sauerkraut (if tolerated), unfiltered raw vinegar, and kombucha that's been fermented enough that it's no longer sweet. I have a sauerkraut recipe on the blog. This may take a while to be effective. -Balance n-6:3 by avoiding industrial seed oils and ensuring a modest but regular intake of omega-3. This has to do with gut wall permeability and resistance to the inflammatory effects of infection. This is also a long-term strategy. -Stomach acid is critical in avoiding SIBO. Proton pump blocking drugs used for indigestion and ulcers cause SIBO in rodents and humans alike. Antacids like Tums will do the same. You may think about experimenting with betaine HCl pills (HCl is stomach acid) to restore stomach acidity if that's a problem (it's fairly common). Just some ideas. Please keep us updated and let us know if you have success with any of these approaches or others. January 12, 2010 at 10:38 AM

03-01-2013, 02:14 PM	#1423
svenskamae Major LCF Poster! Join Date: May 2012 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 2,927 Gallery: svenskamae Stats: 235/178/135 5'3" WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD Start Date: January 15, 2012	Thanks for a really informative post, Key Tones. Now I feel like a ought to learn more about this Butyrate ... I think that gut dysbiosis and other digestive issues are probably under-recognized issues in weight loss and weight loss resistence. Thank goodness hormonal factors are getting some recognition instead of just calories in, calories out, but I don't think that's the whole story. Hi, Shelley! I'll be back to talk to you more.

03-01-2013, 11:32 PM	#1428
Speck333 Blabbermouth!!! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 5,453 Gallery: Speck333 Stats: 181(16)/163(12)/99(0) ~ 5'2" WOE: Semi-Primal Start Date: Atkins restart: Jan. 3, 2010 (7/99 original start)	Hellllooooo everyone!! Hangin' tough over here. Just wanted to pop in and say hello. I caught up on reading everyone's progress. I'm seriously considering the potato hack this summer when I don't have work to deal with (as much). In the meantime, just trying to keep it as clean as possible and hope to have some progress. At least I feel pretty good.

03-02-2013, 11:24 AM	#1431
Key Tones Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,547 Gallery: Key Tones Stats: 312/195/? Down 117 Start Date: LC start 2005; Now a paleo potato hacker!	Hi Speck! Svenska - McDougall says corn is OK on his diet. I am thinking about using it as a condiment on potatoes. I love mashed potatoes with corn. I do eat too much when I mash potatoes with broth, and maybe corn would slow things down, but hey, I still lost weight this week anyway!

03-02-2013, 11:30 AM	#1432
Speck333 Blabbermouth!!! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 5,453 Gallery: Speck333 Stats: 181(16)/163(12)/99(0) ~ 5'2" WOE: Semi-Primal Start Date: Atkins restart: Jan. 3, 2010 (7/99 original start)	KT, I'm so happy for you. How much have you lost all together and how long have you been doing this? Maybe I'll try the hack sooner than summer. I'm so tired of being overweight, and restricting and getting no results. Tired enough to cook meals for my family and eat potatoes for myself? Maybe.

03-02-2013, 11:37 AM	#1433
Key Tones Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,547 Gallery: Key Tones Stats: 312/195/? Down 117 Start Date: LC start 2005; Now a paleo potato hacker!	Cathy - I just received my Body for Life Book!

03-02-2013, 11:46 AM	#1435
Key Tones Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,547 Gallery: Key Tones Stats: 312/195/? Down 117 Start Date: LC start 2005; Now a paleo potato hacker!	and thank you, Speck. I hope it works for you if you give it a try. It has been quite the miracle for me.

03-03-2013, 06:31 AM	#1439
Mobear Major LCF Poster! Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: OH Posts: 1,073 Gallery: Mobear Stats: 235/192/LESS WOE: Bernstein Start Date: 9/2010	Good morning stalled but stubborn friends . I haven't dropped off the face of the earth...just reading but not saying much. Svenskamae I am so glad that you have finalized the sale of your mothers home and are going to visit your sister. Sounds very nice! I too am an endomorph Key Tones I am amazed and delighted by your continued success with the potato hack. After reading the "sleep" thread in the Main Lobby, I have decided to go wild and have a very small (35g) boiled redskin potato before bed. I understand that salt is ok but no fat. Also, I read that fat and protein must be avoided for 4 hours before the potato. I have to confess that I am absolutely desparate for sleep. I already take relora, melatonin, and 5Htp and calcium....but often they don't seem to help at all. I've been avoiding the computer for a couple of hours before bed and if I do use it I put on orange glasses....but well it doesn't seem to matter. I've regained up to my stall weight . I was trying very hard to replicate my eating pattern from November/December when I was losing, but couldn't quite get the protein down to 48g consistently. I also realized that I was eating an enormous amount of fat...one day I ate 150g! My fasting blood glucose was terrible - up around 130 - 150 for several days! So, I've had to rethink things. Right now I've doing LC with protein around 55g, fat no more than 100g, carbs about 30g total. I had a very interesting visit with an endo who may help me. She tossed out a lot of things I don't agree with but I did not argue with her as I am hoping she will help with what I think of as my "thyroid" issue. My free T3 is at 2.2 with the bottom of the lab range being 2.0. Honestly, I think this a big problem as I am frequently so very exhaused I could cry. Also, we talked about my sleep issues. She may order a sleep study. I will be doing a lot of blood work, but cortisol testing will have to wait until I am off the steroid eye drops for 6weeks. She is also going to do a test - I think it is called peptide - which will determine if I am producing insulin. Even though I have greatly reduced the meal time insulin (thanks to LC), I am still taking 35u of Lantus for my long acting insulin. The doctor mentioned exercise, but I'm only willing to walk and maybe do something at home with a DVD. Being 64 yrs old, I am not real flexible on this issue I'm not giving up on NK...but am seriously wondering if it will ever work for me. Speck333 its nice to see you. Maybe the potato hack will work for you as it has for Key Tones and maybe for Svenskamae as well. If I wasn't so afraid of killing myself, I would probably give it a try. Shelley it seems that you are reaching a more peaceful place with health and happy life ahead of weight. Good for you! Cathy and drjlocarb hope you are both doing ok. I looked through the NK threads and am disappointed that Kristn is missing. Cathy you mentioned someplace that you still aren't losing...so sorry to hear that. What about drjlocarb...your NK blood ketones looked good...have you had a weight loss? Sorry this is so long...but it is feels good to tell my friends what I am doing.

03-03-2013, 10:17 AM	#1440
svenskamae Major LCF Poster! Join Date: May 2012 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 2,927 Gallery: svenskamae Stats: 235/178/135 5'3" WOE: Nutritional Ketosis/Primal/JUDDD Start Date: January 15, 2012	I'm sorry you're having so much trouble with weight and sleep, both, Maureen. Have you tried taking a warm epson salt bath before going to be? Lots of magnesium there, which is supposed help with sleep, and a muscle relaxant ... Maybe just one more thing to try, anyway. The macros that you are going to try to follow sound very reasonable to me. I hope that your endo turns out to be helpful and orders the sleep study. If you want to try using exercise DVDs at home, let me know if you want recommendations for ones aimed at an older/senior audience. Those are what I have used, and I have found some that I like.