∞ Stalled But Determined Challenge! ∞

[clackley]

K.T., I wish you a very happy birthday and congrats on your weight loss and to onderland!!! Pretty impressive!!

I am still hanging around (like a bad smell ) but have nothing of interest to contribute. Like Drjlo - just collecting 'data'.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

Tonight a friend took me out to dinner at a jazz club, where we heard Judy Collins perform (her voice and range have hardly changed since I listened to her records in college), and I ordered dessert for the first time in over a year--chocolate cake, since it was a birthday celebration for me.

Oh...I love Judy Collins and used to listen to her records over and over again. Yes, records, not CD's!!!!

Happy belated birthday svenskamae!!!!!! Glad you enjoyed some chocolate cake. Coldwater Creek (yes, clothing store) makes the most decadent chocolate torte (flourless and sugar free other than what is in the dark dark chocolate) that I order for myself every year. YUM!!!!!

Originally Posted by Mobear

I was in Ceour D'Alene in January 2010. I was in Spokane in 2007 and 2010 to attend U. S. Figure Skating Championships (I'm an insane fan). On the second trip I was able to hookup with a tour to Ceour D'Alene and ate at a restaurant overlooking the lake. They had a number of shops in the same building and the whole area was indeed beautiful.

You were at the Coeur d'Alene Resort.....we love to go there for special meals! And I watched the Figure Skating Championships on TV here...bet I got to see walking by! How fun. I know the skaters raved over the hospitality, etc. and I'm guessing they will return. So, we'll have to meet when you come back to watch them!

Originally Posted by Key Tones

Wow, I'm still dropping weight. I hit 199 this morning, so, I managed to give myself my birthday present!

Wow KT!! I'm just flabberghasted with this potato thing you are doing. I could not do it for 2 days and you seem to be so happy with it, and you are in *onederland* for your birthday! Now how great a gift is that?!

Hope your day is magical. And your bike rides are awesome! Hope you feel better this time around since your body has adjusted to what fuel you are feeding it!

Have a great day everyone!!! Love reading what you are all doing.

[drjlocarb]

KT!

What a great present!

[drjlocarb]

Shelley. Happy to see you are still sround.

[svenskamae]

Woohoo! Congratulations on entering onederland, Key Tones! Awesome self-control with the extended potato hack and long bike rides, too!

Have a wonderful birthday.

[Key Tones]

Thank you!

Well, let's see if the weight stays off! So far I made it through the work lunch party. I'm guessing I am at 880 calories so far, and still have dinner and another cake to go.

Not too bad. I didn't freak out, but if no one had been looking, I think I would have snagged another Trophy cupcake. Yep, all I have had is cupcake, milk, and strawberries. Those cupcakes are the devil, they have a large frosting top. I took one with a smaller top, and the cream-cheese topping flavor. Their website says they use butter and cream cheese, so I don't think I got a lot of PUFAs, but who knows.

My friend is making frosting with real butter anyway. These things really stress me out. I am more afraid of partially hydrogenated oil than anything.

[Speck333]

happy birthday KT and svenskamae!
KT 199 woot woot!!

[Key Tones]

Thank you.

OK, I have the most interesting data point yet. I went to a bon fire at Alki beach last night put on by Safe Crossings/Providence Hospice in honor of those that have passed before us. It was lovely. We wrote messages to our loved ones and they lit a Chinese lantern at dusk, which was supposed to take off when they let go, but we suspect it might have been too cold for that to work last night.

Anyway, they had hotdogs and smores, hot apple cider (they had no no coffee!!!). I decided, what the heck, let's take the most interesting data point of all this time. I skipped the hot dog and went for roasted marsmallows ate them (4), at all the chocolate I wanted 1/2 a bar, then made a great big smore (2 more marshmallows, a great big square of chocolate, and sandwiched that between 2 gram crackers (I don't know how many that was, seemed like it was bigger than my palm). I also had a big cup of hot apple cider. i have birthday chocolate hanging around the house I thought my daugher might eat, but she didn't want any, so I ate that last night for good measure and to get rid of it. Not sure how much, but a good amount - maybe 500 calories worth. Yep, I am shameless.

i just woke up with my heart pounding and itchy legs. I know what this means.

2:30 am blood glucose: 158!

i think this is sufficient proof that I am clearly still diabetic.

So, this means I, a diabetic, am getting better blood sugar control with the potato diet than I am with a low carb paleo diet.

Wow.

OMG, what does this mean. Does this mean Dr. McDougall was right??? He is one of those vegan doctors - I've seen him (high starch) debate with Dr. Furhman (low starch). I used to think Dr. Furhman was right (but I failed miserably on Dr. Furhman's diet years ago - I have Eat to Live and DVDs too, bought a vitamix, I really tried). I keep thinking this. Mcougall has these testimonials about reversing diabetes on his web site. He says eat rice, potatoes, beans, corn, winter squash, vegetables...grains too

I will never be vegan after reading about Chris Masterjohn and others getting a mouthful of cavities after going vegan, but...????

!!!

OK, I am going to try to go back to sleep.

After I go order the Starch Solution. No, maybe I'll just watch some youtube videos. Hmm.

[Key Tones]

Sorry I panicked in the middle of the night.

I have some reading and experimenting to do.

Glucose at 9:45 (I finally went back to sleep and slept in, as I often do when I have overdone with junk): 92.

[svenskamae]

I'm glad you are feeling better now, Key Tones.

I don't know that one can generalize from the potato hack results to vegan diets generally. It may be that potatoes are just in a different category than eating vegan generally. I know that I as a pre-diabetic didn't lose any weight on a minimal sugar vegan diet for 9 months, but I did start losing when I went lowcarb. Not that my experience would necessarily be the same as yours ... but I still think there's something specific to eating potatoes in the absence of other food (that the liver has to call on stores of body fat to digest the starch in cold potatoes is one theory that I've read, but you've read more about it than me ... )

Keep us informed on how things are going. You might want to check out The Perfect Health Diet thread, too (or the book or the website for it); PHD allows for some "safe" starches like potatoes and rice but isn't vegan and doesn't include grains.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

I'm glad you are feeling better now, Key Tones.

I don't know that one can generalize from the potato hack results to vegan diets generally. It may be that potatoes are just in a different category than eating vegan generally. I know that I as a pre-diabetic didn't lose any weight on a minimal sugar vegan diet for 9 months, but I did start losing when I went lowcarb. Not that my experience would necessarily be the same as yours ... but I still think there's something specific to eating potatoes in the absence of other food (that the liver has to call on stores of body fat to digest the starch in cold potatoes is one theory that I've read, but you've read more about it than me ... )

Keep us informed on how things are going. You might want to check out The Perfect Health Diet thread, too (or the book or the website for it); PHD allows for some "safe" starches like potatoes and rice but isn't vegan and doesn't include grains.

Just an addendum: I see that the author of the Perfect Health Diet posted to the plan's website that eating a lower amount of starches--such as 10 percent of calories or less from carbs--may be the best approach for people with metabolic issues like insulin resistence. So keep in mind that he would probably prescribe a low carb diet, rather than the standard amount of "safe starches", for people like us.

[Key Tones]

Hi Svenska,

Yes, I have the Perfect Health Diet book. As I recall, he recommended something similar to Kwasniewski for carbs for diabetics (50 I think?).

I really think Kwasniewski had it right - you either eat high fat, low carb, low protein, or like the Japanese - high carb, low fat, low protein, but mixing it up is dangerous to your health--he has a chapter where he goes on and on about what health problems come out of various diet mixes. He did think the Japanese diet was not as healthy as his. If you look at Kwasniewski's diet, he recommended bone broth soups and organ meats.

I tried vegan once and gained weight. Man, I was so sick, I had digestive problems and headaches. I could not do Furman's plan. When I tried to add nuts and bread just to get *something* to eat, I got fatter. I didn't use potatoes out of unfounded fear. Maybe I would have had a fighting chance if I had used potatoes instead of whole wheat bread!

I have just been kicking myself because I think I have one of McDougall's books on quick weight loss somewhere. Maybe I pitched it. I have heard his books are full of recipes with beans (I can't eat these, I hate the taste and they make me quite ill--highly processed garbanzo beans are the exception). I remember taking my blood sugar after eating a bowl of rice and being shocked...I probably pitched his book due to the rice/beans/grains issues.

It seems McDougall cannot be right--Weston Price found *no* healthy vegan populations. Nonetheless, I am curious about how it works for quick weight loss and will read up. And I am curious about McDougall's claims his diet reverses diabetes. It would be nice to have some comfort and understanding that perhaps this is not dangerous.

[Key Tones]

Svenska--I forgot to say - yes, I have subscribed to the PHD thread. I think you pointed me to it at some point--thanks!

[shelley]

OK...3rd try. I have written 2 very long posts and both got stopped with a notice saying my "time was out" and to go back and refresh.

then I posted a short one like the sentence above and got the same message. Each time, of course, my message is GONE!

So, I'm just going to give this a test to see if I am "allowed" to post to this link or if they have bumped me off????

[drjlocarb]

Poor Shelly. We didn't black ball you from our group. Promise!

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by shelley

OK...3rd try. I have written 2 very long posts and both got stopped with a notice saying my "time was out" and to go back and refresh.

then I posted a short one like the sentence above and got the same message. Each time, of course, my message is GONE!

So, I'm just going to give this a test to see if I am "allowed" to post to this link or if they have bumped me off????

Darn! Thank you for hanging in there. Maybe try sending via shorter posts? I am pretty darn wordy, though, and I don't remember being cut off by "time out"--but I type all day at work, so maybe it doesn't take long for me to pound out a lot of prose.

[Key Tones]

Ah, yes, I have lost a long post a time or two.

Please try again Shelley!

[shelley]

Hi...it's the "next day" and I'll try again. I did 2 short posts and they both got deleted with the "time out" thing. Oh well...something must have been amiss.

I decided to eat what I felt like eating (still LC and SF and GF) and when...did it for about 2 weeks. Gained weight (not surprising) and then one morning (yesterday when I tried to post) my weight dropped 2.8# overnight! It is only .2# up this morning. I was shocked. I'm going to continue to eat only when hungry and listen to my body and keep the food within the guidelines. BUT...and here's the only difference, I raised my protein levels! I have done tests in books on what plan to have (old books) and it came out that I should have more protein. The Eades Protein power book and their latest book on "older people" and what to eat also have higher protein. And the time I was 20# lighter than now was on "Body for Life" and that was high protein, but nonfat. I'm not doing nonfat, but I am having higher protein and have snacks of protein shakes. Go figure.

So, I have come to the conclusion that NK eating it not for me. Probably has to do with my first 50 years of being nonfat and lots of fruits, rarely any veggies and very lean proteins. So my body is messed up and this seems to be healing it. I have slept solidly and long (8-8.5 hours) for the last few nights. It feels wonderful. i wake refreshed.

So....I"m not leaving this group as who knows what will come of all this. KT can do her potato stuff and I'll do higher protein....and we can report in what is and isn't working, as always.

The sun came out this morning for the first time in weeks and I am loving it!!!! The snow is melting. It's a good day!

[clackley]

Shelley Great to find something that not only works but makes you feel good!!

[drjlocarb]

Great news Shelley!!

Do keep us posted.

[svenskamae]

Hi, Shelley. I'm glad you've found something that feels right and is healthy for your body. Our endochrine systems and bodies are so complicated that it makes sense that we all have to experiment to see what works for each of us.

I just read "The Seven Principles of Fat Burning" by Eric Berg, which argues that resistence to weight loss may have at least 4 different endocrine problem bases:
1) Liver issues; 2) thyroid issues; 3) ovarian/estrogen issues; and 4) adrenal issues. It's not a great book, but it makes some intuitive sense to me that there can be different causes for resistent weight loss, which also are related to where one tends to put on weight. (According to the symptom lists, I'm an apple with adrenal issues; that makes sense because much of weight gain happened during periods when I was chronically overworked and sleep deprived.) Anyway, while the author recommends a general low-carb diet, there are some tweaks in terms of how much protein (versus fat) works best, and what kind of exercise works best. If I follow that book's recommendation, I need to get enough protein even on my JUDDD down days and do slow exercise like yoga and walking to maximize my chance of weight loss, and that fits with what I've observed about myself. I don't recommend the book enthusiastically, but if one can find it in a local library or in a cheap used copy, it might be worth reading for others.

I look forward to continuing hearing about Shelley's higher protein approach and Key Tones' potato hack. I guess I'm the tester for JUDDD right now; it does make me feel good (calm and energetic and clear-headed), though I'm losing very slowly on it now. I'm going to try going dairy-free for a month in March, so there's another experiment to report on soon.

[Key Tones]

Shelley - I hope your new discovery becomes a trend!

Svenska - wow, I just looked at some Berg youtube videos. He shows a picture of a person big all over like a bear. That is what my husband looked like, and no one in his family looked like that (the rest of them had small legs and small rears, big bellies, but he was big from top to bottom, especially his rear, which is odd in a male). Berg said it was thyroid, which disrupts every cell in the body. Wow. My husband had radiation treatments when he was 21, which destroyed his thyroid. Right after radiation, he started putting on weight. By the time he was 30, he was on full thyroid replacement. He didn't find out until he was in his 40s that it was the radiation that did it to him. I never knew that his body fat pattern was the thyroid.

I am a pear shape, and from everything I've ever heard, I am so screwed. He said estrogen dominance. I've heard that before. I wonder if that has anything to do with why the potatoes work.

[svenskamae]

Hi, Key Tones. Thanks for sharing the information about your husband's weight pattern and its correlation with thyroid issues. That's a bit more evidenc that Berg makes sense. I think you may be lucky to be a pear; there's definitely less cardiovascular risk being a pear than being an apple. Since estrogen dominance seems to be your issue, I'll post a summary of what Berg says to do about that, in the next few days.

[Mobear]

Just checking in. My good news is from my opthamologist. Pressure in my eyes which had been high is now normal. Retinopathy in left eye has cleared up, but right still has a small amount. He is concerned about my extremely dry eye condition and has prescribed steroid drops for 1 month and Restatis which will be long term. In the week I've been doing the drops, my eyes have improved a little. I do wonder if the steroid drops will affect my diabetes, but I have to get the inflammation under control. Interestingly he has recommended to my PCP to screen for Sjorgens (sp?). I also suffer from severe dry mouth at night.

That is the only good news. I have been logging for a week now and am averaging 55g of protein a day, and about 1350-1400 calories. Carbs are at 25g, 'fat is about 120g. This is only a tiny bit (6g) over the protein I was eating in November (when I was losing) and I am GAINING. I am up to 191.4 this morning and could just scream

I've tested for NK several mornings and have not gotten anything other than "low".

I just feel like a total failure and that I am never going to figure this mess out. I go to the endo at the end of February, but honestly just feel like this will be another deadend.

If I could maintain on what I am doing right now, I would be happy with it. That doesn't seem to be possible since I am slowly gaining. I really liked LC without worrying so much about the protein. This is just a huge chore of constantly being hungry and feeling deprived.

I am sorry this is so negative....I just feel like all hope is lost.

[drjlocarb]

Mobear, I wonder if T1 will produce ketones?

[Mobear]

Drjlocarb don't know what you mean by T1. If you are talking diabetes, I am actually diagnosed 30+ years ago as a T2 who now needs insulin. As far as I can remember, I've never been tested for fasting insulin....only fasting glucose. So maybe I am now a T1 or one of the newer T2 which they have come out with in recent years.

The only doctor who has ordered a glucose tolerance test for me was my chiropractor and that was 18 years ago and I think at that time I still had some phase 2 insulin release.

[Key Tones]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

Hi, Key Tones. Thanks for sharing the information about your husband's weight pattern and its correlation with thyroid issues. That's a bit more evidenc that Berg makes sense. I think you may be lucky to be a pear; there's definitely less cardiovascular risk being a pear than being an apple. Since estrogen dominance seems to be your issue, I'll post a summary of what Berg says to do about that, in the next few days.

You are too kind! You don't need to summarize for me, seriously, I can probably google his recommendations. I remember reading Ray Peat who said to eat a lot of carrots to whoosh the estrogen out of your system. I wonder if the potatoes are doing that somehow. I watched a youtube video from someone in another country saying that there were no carrots there but using other vegetables works too. I think I have heard cruciferous vegetables work too.

I am still completely blown away by the thyroid causing big all over obesity. I have never heard the bear effect described before.

[Key Tones]

Originally Posted by Mobear

Just checking in. My good news is from my opthamologist. Pressure in my eyes which had been high is now normal. Retinopathy in left eye has cleared up, but right still has a small amount. He is concerned about my extremely dry eye condition and has prescribed steroid drops for 1 month and Restatis which will be long term. In the week I've been doing the drops, my eyes have improved a little. I do wonder if the steroid drops will affect my diabetes, but I have to get the inflammation under control. Interestingly he has recommended to my PCP to screen for Sjorgens (sp?). I also suffer from severe dry mouth at night.

That is the only good news. I have been logging for a week now and am averaging 55g of protein a day, and about 1350-1400 calories. Carbs are at 25g, 'fat is about 120g. This is only a tiny bit (6g) over the protein I was eating in November (when I was losing) and I am GAINING. I am up to 191.4 this morning and could just scream

I've tested for NK several mornings and have not gotten anything other than "low".

I just feel like a total failure and that I am never going to figure this mess out. I go to the endo at the end of February, but honestly just feel like this will be another deadend.

If I could maintain on what I am doing right now, I would be happy with it. That doesn't seem to be possible since I am slowly gaining. I really liked LC without worrying so much about the protein. This is just a huge chore of constantly being hungry and feeling deprived.

I am sorry this is so negative....I just feel like all hope is lost.

Mobear, I am sorry...do hang in there. I think I may have mentioned that I spent most of the past 7 years stuck? I have mostly lost in spurts, generally no more than 15-20 pounds per year. It takes soooo much trying. What works keeps changing as I lose more. Also, I am pretty convinced, in my case, that things work simply because I switch gears and my body isn't ready for it. Please don't lose hope.

It is great to hear the good news! I didn't realize that you were having eye problems.

I had a dry eyes problem when I went ultra low carb - just mentioning it. I even went to glasses for a while instead of contacts after switching brands with no luck. You might want to google it; I know I have read one of the paleo bloggers write about this and it resonated with me. It may not be causative but it could be contributing.

[Key Tones]

Originally Posted by Mobear

Just checking in. My good news is from my opthamologist. Pressure in my eyes which had been high is now normal. Retinopathy in left eye has cleared up, but right still has a small amount. He is concerned about my extremely dry eye condition and has prescribed steroid drops for 1 month and Restatis which will be long term. In the week I've been doing the drops, my eyes have improved a little. I do wonder if the steroid drops will affect my diabetes, but I have to get the inflammation under control. Interestingly he has recommended to my PCP to screen for Sjorgens (sp?). I also suffer from severe dry mouth at night.

That is the only good news. I have been logging for a week now and am averaging 55g of protein a day, and about 1350-1400 calories. Carbs are at 25g, 'fat is about 120g. This is only a tiny bit (6g) over the protein I was eating in November (when I was losing) and I am GAINING. I am up to 191.4 this morning and could just scream

I've tested for NK several mornings and have not gotten anything other than "low".

I just feel like a total failure and that I am never going to figure this mess out. I go to the endo at the end of February, but honestly just feel like this will be another deadend.

If I could maintain on what I am doing right now, I would be happy with it. That doesn't seem to be possible since I am slowly gaining. I really liked LC without worrying so much about the protein. This is just a huge chore of constantly being hungry and feeling deprived.

I am sorry this is so negative....I just feel like all hope is lost.

Mobear, I am sorry...do hang in there. I think I may have mentioned that I spent most of the past 7 years stuck? I have mostly lost in spurts, generally no more than 15-20 pounds per year. It takes soooo much trying. What works keeps changing as I lose more. I'm feel that the reason things work when I change is that my body isn't ready for it. I've gone backwards many, many times. I tend to lose weight right after a big gain. Please take heart!!!

The best thing that helped me when I was trying for the low protein high fat was to eat a ton of cauliflower mashed. I really don't know why.

I had the dry eyes problem when I went ultra low carb - just mentioning it. I even went to glasses for a while instead of contacts after switching brands with no luck. You might want to google it; I know I have read one of the paleo bloggers write about this and it resonated with me.

OK, I know unsolicited advice is irritating....I will stop now. I am so sorry that you are suffering

[drjlocarb]

Originally Posted by Mobear

Drjlocarb don't know what you mean by T1. If you are talking diabetes, I am actually diagnosed 30+ years ago as a T2 who now needs insulin. As far as I can remember, I've never been tested for fasting insulin....only fasting glucose. So maybe I am now a T1 or one of the newer T2 which they have come out with in recent years.

The only doctor who has ordered a glucose tolerance test for me was my chiropractor and that was 18 years ago and I think at that time I still had some phase 2 insulin release.

Oops, I thought you were type1 diabetic. But, I still wonder if insulin injections would somehow interfere with ketone production. Just thinking out loud. In writing..whatever.