∞ Stalled But Determined Challenge! ∞

[drjlocarb]

Thanks sven.

My fasting glucose is fine (80-90) if I am not in ketosis or LC at all. This crap is because of gluconeogenisis. I did take a gluc reading at 3 AM to see what was happening. Result--102 and it was 95 when I went to bed at 11PM.

I might have to turn off my liver each night when I go to bed.

Now I have the mother load of ketone strips and I am out of glucose strips. I will get more tomorrow...stay tuned.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

Thanks sven.

My fasting glucose is fine (80-90) if I am not in ketosis or LC at all. This crap is because of gluconeogenisis. I did take a gluc reading at 3 AM to see what was happening. Result--102 and it was 95 when I went to bed at 11PM.

I might have to turn off my liver each night when I go to bed.

Now I have the mother load of ketone strips and I am out of glucose strips. I will get more tomorrow...stay tuned.

About turning off your liver at night when you go to bed! Good luck with finding a less drastic solution. Would it help to eat a little high fat protein (say, a piece of cheese) before you went to bed and then again in the middle of the night? Maybe try it once with protein, once with fat, and once with a combination of the two? Though I know it might be a drag to wake up at 3 to test blood and eat a little bit of food ... Or maybe that would just make things worse? Does modifying the number of hours that you eat food--doing intermittent fasting or fast 5--have any effect on this problem?

[Speck333]

Well, I've been back on plan for a few days, and I suppose I'm being impatient, but after dropping 3 "water-weight" pounds, the scale hasn't budged. Hmm. TOM is coming, I always have problems losing before TOM, so I'm hoping that's it. I will keep it up, of course, I really don't have a choice. We'll see.

I have to admit that those of you who discuss blood glucose, various supplements and ketones and so forth make my head spin. I don't mean to be ignoring you, but your discussions are a bit more technical than I can wrap my head around right now, and I'm not sure what to say to you

[svenskamae]

I'm just happy to see you here, Speck, and to hear that you've continued to stay on plan. I hope you get a whoosh after TOM!

[Key Tones]

DR - interesting on your glucose results. I have heard that if you have to take a blood glucose test to eat carbs for 3 days to bring your blood sugar numbers back in line if you are doing low carb. I am pretty sure I heard it on one of the Chris Kresser podcasts. That blew me away. Before that, I had wondered about my high morning blood sugars. I never knew before I heard that that people on LC diets can have this issue. Do not bother with listening to it; they were criticizing LC diets as worsening insulin resistance, which angered me because my A1C dropped to NORMAL levels on LC, but yes, my morning blood sugar is high. My doctor has decided that the A1C is all that really counts in my case. My opthomologist says there is absolutely no sign that I have ever been diabetic. My eyes look perfect (she showed me the pictures). I am a little worried nonetheless.

I found that I can bring my morning blood sugar level in line by walking around my little neighborhood 4-5 times. I live on a hill side, so this is not easy work. I have heard the eat a snack thing before bed but there is no way I am doing that. Weight loss is hard enough as it is.

Speck, I have enough books to stock a library, and I am still lost and confused.

OK, I just had 300 calories too much from eating the avocado chocolate pudding (OMG it really tastes like pudding, I am clueless how that could be!), so I have to get off my tush and walk some of this off. I was not that hungry but I had to try it. I started off wtih 3 eggs and a lot of broccoli this morning, and that helped a lot wtih hunger.

Ooo, I need to get ingredients from the guacamole thread in the main lobby (that's where I found the avocado chocolate pudding recipe)! I'll walk some of it off at the grocery store!

Thank you Cathy for your recipe too! I have the garlic and hot sauce

I've been meaning to make some of my own dressings with olive oil. I'll do it tonight. Italian sounds great!

Love you guys for being here!

[clackley]

Yes, good to see you Speck! Hope your day goes well.

K.T., the issue of fasting b.g. levels has come up before and it appears that some people who are long term low carbers have what is termed 'physiological insulin resistance' and that is different from the usual 'pathological insulin resistance' that is normally talked about. And the short of the long is that a person's A1C is what counts. Peter over at hyperlipid has a great blog on the subject and Drjolo has a very logical hypothosis (which I am sure she will share with you).

I was testing b.g. (fasting) for a number of months and watched mine #'s rise into the 100's yet my same test done at a lab (and many hours later) it is perfectly normal.

[drjlocarb]

This is a post from before. My A1c was 5.8 at the time. NOT good. This is what got me to test fbg. Through some testing and experimenting, I found when I was eating LC, but not ketogenic, I had normal glucose -morning and after each meal. After 3 months, my A1c dropped to 5.3, I think. Not that I was losing weight or anything.

Now I know it is more than physiological insulin resistance, it is an over production of glucose. I am trying to find a balance of ptn and fat to increase ketones and drive down the glucose without losing muscle.

[drjlocarb]

Oops, the post didnt follow me to ^^post.

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

Low carb DOES cause insulin resistance. BUT, it is physiological insulin resistance. I have this problem and with the high protein levels and the VERY efficient liver, it was driving my FBG too high. But the minute I increased the carbs, my FBG fell to normal levels. At no point did my BG go sky high after meals..LC or not.

My understanding of physiological insulin resistance is that as the supply of glucose decreases and the supply of ketones increases, some cells turn off the receptors for glucose and that makes them insulin resistant. It is like they are just being polite and will use ketones and save the glucose for the cell that NEED glucose. It is not a permanent thing, just a physiological thing.

My liver thinks it's being a real hero and will pump out too much glucose for everyone even if they want to use ketones. So the poor little ketones get shuttled back into the fat cells.

I am hoping by decreasing the protein available and increasing the dietary fat, I will convince my liver that there is no famine and to just let fat do what fat is supposed to do.

[drjlocarb]

Originally Posted by Speck333

Well, I've been back on plan for a few days, and I suppose I'm being impatient, but after dropping 3 "water-weight" pounds, the scale hasn't budged. Hmm. TOM is coming, I always have problems losing before TOM, so I'm hoping that's it. I will keep it up, of course, I really don't have a choice. We'll see.

I have to admit that those of you who discuss blood glucose, various supplements and ketones and so forth make my head spin. I don't mean to be ignoring you, but your discussions are a bit more technical than I can wrap my head around right now, and I'm not sure what to say to you

I just want to know you are doing OK. Head spinning won't help.

I'm not sure there is anything you CAN say. It's all just guessing at this point.

[Speck333]

you gals. The scale dropped a pound today. We'll see if it sticks. Enjoying coffee at the moment, then I have to run errands. Have a great day everyone!

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by Speck333

you gals. The scale dropped a pound today. We'll see if it sticks. Enjoying coffee at the moment, then I have to run errands. Have a great day everyone!

Woohoo! May that scale drop be the first of many! You are doing great, Speck!

[clackley]

Originally Posted by Speck333

you gals. The scale dropped a pound today. We'll see if it sticks. Enjoying coffee at the moment, then I have to run errands. Have a great day everyone!

Yaaa Speck!!

[Mobear]

Good going Speck333. It is very nice to have you back. We are all here sharing information and support because you started this thread . Eventually I hope we will all find our way to better health!

I have to say that the liver dumping glucose issue is a pain in the "liver" I've tried things and thought, oh boy that worked...except the next time I tried the same thing it didn't. Since beginning of November I've been splitting my protein into 2 meals...lunch and dinner. I get up at 3:00 a.m. and have a couple of cups of decaf with 2T of coconut oil. Wasn't taking any insulin or eating anything until 9 when I would have a fat bomb or two.

Now, that doesn't seem to be working and my blood sugar is rising steadily from 3 a.m. on. I'm also ridiculously hungry at 9 a.m. Starting tonight I am going to try splitting my metformin and taking one at 8p.m. before I go to bed and another when I get up at 3. Don't think this will take effect immediately, but maybe I'll see an improvement in a couple of days.

I'm over on calories and protein (53g), but am hoping I can finish out the day without eating anything else.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by Mobear

Good going Speck333. It is very nice to have you back. We are all here sharing information and support because you started this thread . Eventually I hope we will all find our way to better health!

I have to say that the liver dumping glucose issue is a pain in the "liver" I've tried things and thought, oh boy that worked...except the next time I tried the same thing it didn't. Since beginning of November I've been splitting my protein into 2 meals...lunch and dinner. I get up at 3:00 a.m. and have a couple of cups of decaf with 2T of coconut oil. Wasn't taking any insulin or eating anything until 9 when I would have a fat bomb or two.

Now, that doesn't seem to be working and my blood sugar is rising steadily from 3 a.m. on. I'm also ridiculously hungry at 9 a.m. Starting tonight I am going to try splitting my metformin and taking one at 8p.m. before I go to bed and another when I get up at 3. Don't think this will take effect immediately, but maybe I'll see an improvement in a couple of days.

I'm over on calories and protein (53g), but am hoping I can finish out the day without eating anything else.

How frustrating, Maureen! I hope that the splitting metformin works.

My strategies for coping with DD hunger include fluids, fluids, fluids (especially water, water with a splash of lemon juice, green tea) and going to bed early, so I sleep through the late evening hunger. I'm sure you've thought of those things, too, but sometimes I'm surprised by how effectively they work for me, at least for a while, when I've decided not to eat any more that day.

[Mobear]

Well I do sip decaf coffee and occasionally herb tea in the evening, but I don't want to be up all night (I'm up most of it any darn way). But, I could drink more water when the 9 a.m. hunger hits. Since you mentioned it, I haven't been drinking as much throughout the day. I have been using more shiritake which seems to help some.

[Key Tones]

Ah, physiologcal vs. pathlogical insulin resistance. Well, it sounds like my doc had the right idea to just go with the A1C.

Speck - great news!!!!

OK, has anyone had issues with erithrytol? I made the chocolate avocado pudding last night, and I was so thirsty after that. I thought for sure my weight would be up from drinking so much water, but it was down another pound. I wonder if that stuff dehydrated me? Good grief. I bought it a couple of years ago and decided making treats with it was causing me to over eat on things that didn't taste that great anyway, so I shelved it. I can't remember if it made me thirsty before.

[Key Tones]

I'm experiencing a tolerable amount of hunger today. I'm just trying to find that sweet spot where I feel it a little but it does not push me too far.

I wonder what it would be like to not have weight issues. What would I be thinking about or doing right now?

I think we are or will be healthier for it anyway! We would otherwise be eating the bad fats (processed oils), flour, high fructose corn syrup...wow.

The dark, quiet house is killing me. I'm off to go shopping for a while.

[Speck333]

Originally Posted by Key Tones

Ah, physiologcal vs. pathlogical insulin resistance. Well, it sounds like my doc had the right idea to just go with the A1C.

Speck - great news!!!!

OK, has anyone had issues with erithrytol? I made the chocolate avocado pudding last night, and I was so thirsty after that. I thought for sure my weight would be up from drinking so much water, but it was down another pound. I wonder if that stuff dehydrated me? Good grief. I bought it a couple of years ago and decided making treats with it was causing me to over eat on things that didn't taste that great anyway, so I shelved it. I can't remember if it made me thirsty before.

Yes! I know exactly what you mean. One of the first times I used E it was for some little donut like things rolled in cinnamon-"sugar". After I ate a few, my mouth felt so weird! Like dry. It's from what they call the "cooling-effect" that is well-known with Erithrytol. It's harmless as far as I know, but it's why E is almost always combined with some other sweetener.

Originally Posted by Key Tones

I'm experiencing a tolerable amount of hunger today. I'm just trying to find that sweet spot where I feel it a little but it does not push me too far.

I wonder what it would be like to not have weight issues. What would I be thinking about or doing right now?

I think we are or will be healthier for it anyway! We would otherwise be eating the bad fats (processed oils), flour, high fructose corn syrup...wow.

The dark, quiet house is killing me. I'm off to go shopping for a while.

Wow. What in the world would I be worried about if not diet, food and weight.

And big

[stardustshadow]

Hey ladies...I have not forgotten you! I have been in exam hell for over a month now and have pretty much done nothing but eat, sleep and breathe the law. I have my last exam (of the semester) tomorrow and am looking forward to getting my life back! (temporarily at least)

I have dropped a couple pounds since the last time I was up here. but it has taken forever. About a month ago I had surgery (minor) on my arm to remove an infected sweat gland...they put me on really strong broad spectrum antibiotics and they made me swell up like a pufferfish! I gained 4 kilograms overnight! It took me the next month to get rid of. But now it is gone and I'm slimmer than ever and happy to finally see the scale going down once more

[Mobear]

Nice to see you again stardustshadow. While you have your break from school you need to fill us in with what you've been doing to get that pesky scale moving again!

KeyTones I hope you are feeling better this morning . This is a tough time of the year for those that have lost loved ones.

Speck333 NO headspinning , please!

This is a quote from post #281 on the NK January thread from Kristn:

"But my understanding is that you can go in and out of ketosis throughout the day depending on exercise levels and food eaten. For instance, eating coconut oil or MCT oil will produce ketones for fuel even when you're not necessarily fully in ketosis.

Overnight your body uses and needs energy. If you have eaten enough protein for gluconeogenesis or you have enough glucose stored in your liver you can be knocked out of ketosis and back into sugar burning. My understanding is that we're trying to get into the state where this overnight glucose dump doesn't occur. This is confirmed by ketones over .5 upon waking. Like I said, someone help me out here if I'm wrong."

This made me think about why things aren't working for me, but were back in October/Nov/early December. I use coconut oil in morning coffee, but have drifted back to cream cheese/butter for cooking and snacking later in the day and evening. When things finally started moving in October I was using coconut manna in the evening if I was hungry...didn't have access to butter or cream cheese. Maybe if I get enough coconut oil late in the day, I can slow down the glucose dump overnight . I'm making more coconut fat bombs today!!!

[clackley]

K.T. I really hear you about the weight loss issue and what other things might we be doing if not for that? I think in a way it is a silver lining to a dark cloud and through this puzzle, I have learned so much that I would not have otherwise. I am suffering a little from the empty house as well although they have just gone to live else where (son to university and daughter to a research gig in Congo). It is just too quiet until I get used to it.

Stardustshadow - good to hear you are doing well. You give me hope in that you are losing again. Please do share your plan.

Maureen, I think you are on the right track with the fats later in the day although I think c.o. might be too 'energizing' for near to sleep time. I would stick to all the other fats for the evening if possible. Btw, I think Kirstn hit the nail on the head with her explanation. And remember, she has done quite well on n.k. and it took her a full week of constistent appropriate eating to get back to n.k..

[Speck333]

Howdy everyone
Stardust, great to see you! Sorry to hear about the surgery and all the school work.
the 165 stuck today. Good news for me!

[stardustshadow]

Hey everyone, nice to see you all...sorry for the quickness of this note (exam is looming in the morning!).

How did the scale get moving again? Very, very low carb, IF and low calorie. Man that sounds awful seeing it like that but it does not seem so bad to me when I DO it

[Key Tones]

Hello all, and hi Stardustshadow! Great to hear of your success under stressful conditions!

Thank you for the quiet house sympathies! I will be staying out of it tonight. I have to go to my daughter's dorm to bring her more supplies, which fortunately is close to the grief group meeting.

I am firmly embedded in my diet obsessions today! I should be working, not typing.

I am now 208, just 2 pounds above my low, so the Christmas bloat/weight is finally relenting. No big celebrations to be had now, not until I am below where I was and it sticks (praying for 199, of course). I tried last week but it did not come off. This week - very little protein. Almost no meat (sad face!), max 3 eggs per day, no dairy except what is in condiments. Staples have been avocado, broccoli, cauliflower with Kerrygold butter, and I am ashamed to admit it, but I have dipped into my daughter's protein bars a few times this week when I had low protein-hunger freak outs.

I am beginning to believe this low protein/high fat (without dairy and little meat) is going to work! I will eat some meat tonight or tomorrow night, more freely, in case I am getting into my lean body mass here.

Speck--yay for sticking the number! I will mix smaller amounts of the E with sweeteners. The thirst thing was so weird, but I realize I probably haven't eaten 1/4 cup before in one sitting. (!!!) Good to know it isn't just me. Thank you for your reply.

[Key Tones]

Ah, I just remembered that I got that same, odd thirsty feeling from drinking Zevia soda. Here are the ingredients:

CARBONATED WATER, ERYTHRITOL, CARAMEL COLOR, TARTARIC ACID, REB A (STEVIA EXTRACT), FUMARIC ACID, LIME OIL, LEMON OIL, NATURAL FLAVORS, CASSIA OIL, NUTMEG OIL


Apparently, it was the Erythritol that did it to me!

[Speck333]

Ah-ha! Well, that explains it.

[shelley]

Hi all.....sorry I've been out of touch...lost the link to this great group and just found it.

Good discussions and ideas being presented. I'm glad a few of you got the ketone strips. I just ordered more today as I am absolutely determined to make this work, as Kristn has. I am lost with what to do though. I did go to amazon to read the intro to Skaldeman's book...he's got a recipe book coming out and you can pre=order it on amazon. I think Sven has the book, but just reading the intro (free "look inside the book") gave me a lightbulb moment and I have not been charting my food for a couple days. I had a nice 1.5# drop which was totally unexpected as those days I did chart and was high calories! Made no sense to my brain.

I'm glad a couple of you are working on getting thyroid help. I had my annual bloodtest done since being optimized for a year...and as I could "feel", I was again low on FT4 and FT3. One of my "clues" was the insomnia creeping back into my life and just not having any desire to do much of anything. Remember though, that getting meds for thyroid does not make you lose weight. It makes you feel "better" so that you are functional and "desire" to get up and move and do things. However, if you took T3 meds only, then you would lose, but also deteriorate your bones and also hurt your heart. You don't want to do that! I'm guessing that the docs you go to Rx synthroid....if you are in Canada, BEG to have Erfa Rx'd!!!! I get my meds from Canada, and I'm in the USA. I love ERFA...all natural and you just feel good on them.

Anyway, you've been busy chatting and I have a lot to catch up on, but wanted to say HI and hope 2013 sees us all get a handle on all this and start the losses! I am determined!

I also test fasting b/g and am not diabetic, and found that my numbers have gone from the 90's to pretty consistently being over 100 on this NK eating plan. So, I'm with drjlocarb on how my body is reacting to it all. Last year my Ha1C (?) was 5.8. Wonder what it would be now doing this type of eating. I'll probably re-test in another couple months.

Here's to 2013 ladies and our success!!!! It's just got to be the year we all do well, right?!

[shelley]

Good morning....reporting that the 1.5# drop I saw is mostly gone..up 1# this morning. Phooey. Fasting b/g was 114 (standard these days) and ketones were .3 which has been the norm too...started at .1, then .2 and now I've been .3 for a few days with one .4 in there. None of which puts me into ketosis. My protein has been low and fat high. I'm hanging in there.

[svenskamae]

I'm glad to see you back, Shelley. If you want to read more of the Skaldeman book, I could xerox what seem like the most helpful bits (I've got access to free xeroxing at work); send me a private message if you want that to happen. Skaldeman has 3 separate plans with various degrees of carbs allowed, and I imagine the stalled ones here would be interested in the one for people with the greatest difficulty losing weight.

I hope that you can find the NK tweaks that work for you and get your thyroid on track. And it does seem like a lot of what's required for NK to start burning fat is to stick with it, though it's really hard when one's body takes weeks or even several months to "get it" that it should burning fat!

[Key Tones]

Hi Shelley! Ah, how well we know the ups and downs of weighing...

OK, I am down more weight this morning. Now I'm only 1 pound above my posted weight, so I no longer feel my stats are a lie. Although I started hitting it hard last week, just suddenly in the past few days I am down five pounds. I hope it is not just Erythritol dehydration! It should have worn off by now. IF you ever have a critical weigh in, you have a tip here....good grief that stuff makes me drink and go even more, seriously. I found someone else posted about it:

About Sugar Alcohol

•Cons: Large doses (over 50g) of this sugar alcohol can cause hives, stomach rumbling and nausea. And as with all sugar alcohols, it increases urination and thirst.

Giving up dairy has driven me to use more spices. I've been sprinkling curry powder on my food and drinking thai and other spiced tea that has cinnamon in it because coffee with no cream is, well, no fun. I found that putting a sweetened (splenda) curry powder on eggs gives me a similar satisfied feeling as does cheese on eggs. PLain eggs leaves me searching around for something more to eat.

I have heard that curry and spices can help diabetes and weight loss.

Perhaps this is the key to what is going on with me lately. No dairy, lots of spices on lots of vegetables and fat (cauliflower/butter or eggs/broccoli combinations).

Hmm.

We'll see if this continues to work.