∞ Stalled But Determined Challenge! ∞

[deMuralist]

I am new to LCF.

Dieted using various versions of the SAD mixed with a variety of fad diets for, essentially 40 years. Was 13 years old, and 145 pound swimmer when I started. The doc put me on speed because my BMI was high. So 39 years later, I was 289.8, talk about high BMI!

So I started the Ketogenic Mediterranean Diet in March 2011, lost 22 pounds. Got Pulmonary Embolism, in hospital, then onto drugs, severe reaction, get prednisone, blah blah...up and down.

Found the Primal Diet at 267, stayed there, until I found the book
S.P.E.E.D. in November, 2011. Went through the holidays up until last week bouncing around 251.

But now it is going back up. 261.2 this morning.

What I am trying now...religiously tracking/weighing/measuring everything. And according to Precision Nutrition there are 10 'proven' strategies for fat loss, and the best way to incorporate them is to pick one that you can do everyday for the next 14 days. 5 of them are already a part of what I do, so the one I am working on right now is to take my supplements every morning and night (I tend to forget this). I am on day 2 of that.

[Domino]

RDA protein levels are based on a formula of your body weight in kg multiplied by .6, .7, or .8 depending on how much activity you do (especially exercise or weight training). Since I'm on Atkins and don't exercise much, I am going to choose .7 grams per kg.

My weight is (approximately) 200 lbs / 2.2 = 90.9 kg. 90.9 kg x .7 = 63.6 g of protein per day.

Keep in mind that the liver likes to turn protein into sugar, so eating much more than is needed to maintain tissues isn't a good idea if you are prone to protein related blood sugar spikes, which would raise insulin and increase fat storage.

In other news, it's sickening that I have all this knowledge and yet I'm still plateaued. Hope it benefits SOMEONE.

[Speck333]

That would only be 47g of protein for me. I was getting more than that on 500 calorie JUDDD down days for crying out loud.

[Domino]

Originally Posted by Speck333

That would only be 47g of protein for me. I was getting more than that on 500 calorie JUDDD down days for crying out loud.

Yeah...I know, right? I did my fit day tally for the day so far and determined that I'm dangerously close to my protein allowance for the day, only 11g left. I'm a long way from my calorie count and carb allowance though.

[Speck333]

This makes me sad and like I want to cry.

[deMuralist]

"A recent recommendation by the Institute of Medicine stated, “The AMDR [acceptable macronutrient distribution range] for protein provides a minimum RDA intake of .8g/kg [.8 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight] with a range up to at least 2.5g/kg without any identifiable Upper Limit Risk” (p.2).29 This protein range equates to about 10 to 35% of a normal caloric intake.29 However, the best way to determine protein needs is to base it on bodyweight and not caloric intake. A protein intake of about 1.5g/kg (.68g/lb) seems to be a good amount for health and fat loss.22,29 For example, a 160lb (73kg) person would want to ingest about 109 grams of protein/day. This amount of protein should be distributed relatively evenly throughout your meals.29 Getting a higher amount of protein, relative to the RDA levels (.8g/kg) seems to be a good thing. According to Donald Layman, a prominent protein researcher: “Diets with increased protein have now been shown to improve adult health with benefits for treatment or prevention of obesity, osteoporosis, type 2 diabetes, Metabolic Syndrome, heart disease, and sarcopenia [loss of muscle tissue]” (p.1).29"

This from the book "S.P.E.E.D." S.P.E.E.D. - Evidence Based Weight Loss

I have played with the macros a lot in the past 6 months, currently doing 20%CHO, 30%protein, 50%fat. At 1,650 calories that is 83gCHO (I do net so that they end up being below 50), 124g protein, and 92g fat, give or take.

Of course you can take my advice/information with a grain of salt as I am in a stall.

p.s. the number "29" is a reference to a foot note.

[ElizabethLC]

Originally Posted by Speck333

This makes me sad and like I want to cry.

I was thinking about this thread when I woke up this morning and going "what if protein is part of my stall? Aieeeeee!"


deMuralist: Hi!! Welcome to the board!! Would you mind sharing the 10 strategies?

[Mobear]

I would be very cautious going below the .8/kg of body weight for protein. RDAs come from the same people that encourage us to eat low fat with no more than 35% of our calories from fat with 10% or less from saturated fat.

If I calculate .7/kg of weight = 61g pro = 246 calories; 35% of my 1150 calories for fat would be 402 calories; 30g of carbs would be 120 calories so my actual calories would only be 768 for the day (if I did this right )

I'm going to try and find my Protein Power book and see how much protein it recommends. If I can find it, I'll post the info.

[clackley]

Welcome deMuralist! Appreciate your input and everyone else's as well!

I have a really hard time keeping protein down and fat up. I have heard (or read) that protein requirements should be based on lean body weight.

[Domino]

I think when you are doing like I did yesterday and are overeating protein by 15g or so, it's not a big deal. When you overeat it by almost double is probably where you'd start to see a problem... BUT, keep in mind that the body has to use some of those calories to make glucose-- it's a labor intensive process. Thus the metabolic advantage that Atkins talked about.

I'm not going to sweat the situation if I stay under around 80g per day. I am going to start keeping better track of macros so that my calories and protein aren't crazy. I know there have been days where I was WAY over on all of it. I've been over-eating, I know it. I think that was in large part because of the ravenous hunger I got from Splenda. Stevia doesn't do that to me, and neither does aspartame-- but with aspartame I get a sweet tooth. That isn't good either. I'm transitioning to using only liquid splenda products like Vanilla Davinci when I have my coffee; and only stevia products if they need to be granular, Maybe some erythritol too.

None of this is science. It's an art, and every person is different. I have friends who can't eat meat, period. They get sick and fat. My husband was eating too much of my type of foods, and lost so much weight he looked like a heroin addict. I had to start stuffing him with potatoes and bread so he'd look normal again! I've figured out what I need to do to not be super fat or to gain weight. Now I just need to tweak things to account for the weight I've already lost and clean out the chemicals that make things go haywire.

[deMuralist]

Pick ONE of the following habits, and do it every day for 14 days.
Fat Loss Habit 1. Exercise for 30 minutes
Fat Loss Habit 2. Take fish oil and a multivitamin at breakfast
Fat Loss Habit 3. Drink at least 8 cups of water
Fat Loss Habit 4. Eat at least 4 one-cup servings of vegetables
Fat Loss Habit 5. Sleep at least 8 hours (including naps and night-time sleep)
Fat Loss Habit 6. During each meal, stop eating when 80% full
Fat Loss Habit 7. Twice during the work day, get up and do 5 minutes of muscle stretching
Fat Loss Habit 8. Eat 4 – 5 meals
Fat Loss Habit 9. Eat lean protein with each meal
Fat Loss Habit 10. Replace grains with greens during each meal

These 10 habits should give you a great start on the fat loss process. But remember the rules. Don’t try to pile them all on at once. Begin by choosing only one new habit that you’re confident you can do for 14 days. Then do it, adding new habits only after you’ve mastered the first one.

And here’s another key tip. As you adopt each new habit, you have our permission to leave everything else the same. Sure, if you’re feeling particularly ambitious one day and you want to try a few new things, that’s OK. However, take my word. You can’t do it all at once, every day. But the good news is you don’t have to! So just let go of that expectation right now.

Instead, pick one proven behavior to start with. The same way you would learn math, or learn to talk, you are learning to get in shape."

this is taken from precisionnutrition.com they have a series of 5 free videos that you can sign up for. Pretty reasonable info, worth the time I think.

[deMuralist]

p.s. thanks for the welcome!

I am off of all sweeteners except liquid stevia extract, for now. It seemed to help a bit.

[Mobear]

I did finally find my Protein Power book. Dr. Eades does talk about protein requirements based on lean body mass. The explanation for determining lean body mass takes up several pages. After doing all the computations I came up with 67g of protein (Dr. Bernstein was 70g). I've noticed that when I eat 100g it does seem to impact my blood sugar, but of course, everyone is different.

I have cut down on cheese (which I love) but find my fat grams are hard to keep up doing the lower protein. Midmorning today I was eating butter because I was hungry and didn't want to eat more protein or carbs...

[Speck333]

I have been known to eat butter once in a while

Here's the thing. I don't eat that much as it is. I'm on the verge of rage when I think about my inability to lose weight. I resist any idea that wants me to eat less. I can hardly eat less than what I currently eat. It's absurd to think that eating less is going to solve my problem. I will gladly slap anyone who tells me all I need to do is eat less. I know this protein discussion is not "eat less overall", but I find it hard to believe that 2 eggs and 4 oz of steak, plus random grams of protein from this and that (over the long term), is adequate for me. And if I were to somehow calculate what my actual lean body mass is, that's going to be even lower. I'm not railing on anyone here. I'm just venting. Anyway, I feel better now. And maybe I'll have to try this at some point. Right now, I'm just enjoying eating normally (low carb) for the first time in 6 months and not having to be hungry every other day. I can maintain like this indefinitely. I don't even consider this "dieting", what I do. It's just how I eat. I've been "dieting" with no results for so long that I just need a break for a few weeks. I'm planning on trying the Leptin Reset thing after finals and graduation. Until then, I'm just trying to follow my Primal WOE. 2 eggs for breakfast, salad with protein for lunch, meat and veg for dinner.

[deMuralist]

I think that since your calorie needs are essentially determined by your weight (either lean body mass or just the scale weight depending on which equation you use), using % of calories cannot be that far off. And it is my memory (though vague and faint and very possibly wrong) that Atkins has a percentage that it considers optimum. Maybe something like 20/30/50 (CHO/protein/fat). or is that something I just made up on the fly?

when you do the Leptin Reset, you are supposed to do between 50 and 75 grams of protein just at breakfast. I did it and it is hard to hit that number, especially for someone who doesn't love eating in the morning. Good Luck with it!

[clackley]

Originally Posted by Speck333

I have been known to eat butter once in a while

Here's the thing. I don't eat that much as it is. I'm on the verge of rage when I think about my inability to lose weight. I resist any idea that wants me to eat less. I can hardly eat less than what I currently eat. It's absurd to think that eating less is going to solve my problem. I will gladly slap anyone who tells me all I need to do is eat less. I know this protein discussion is not "eat less overall", but I find it hard to believe that 2 eggs and 4 oz of steak, plus random grams of protein from this and that (over the long term), is adequate for me. And if I were to somehow calculate what my actual lean body mass is, that's going to be even lower. I'm not railing on anyone here. I'm just venting. Anyway, I feel better now. And maybe I'll have to try this at some point. Right now, I'm just enjoying eating normally (low carb) for the first time in 6 months and not having to be hungry every other day. I can maintain like this indefinitely. I don't even consider this "dieting", what I do. It's just how I eat. I've been "dieting" with no results for so long that I just need a break for a few weeks. I'm planning on trying the Leptin Reset thing after finals and graduation. Until then, I'm just trying to follow my Primal WOE. 2 eggs for breakfast, salad with protein for lunch, meat and veg for dinner.

I hear you! Maybe I need to quit trying to fix it for a time as well....

[Mobear]

Aw Speck...I am so sorry you are so upset . I hope you feel better today. I have felt adrift for several months...trying this and that with no clear guidelines.

For right now, I'm going to try my best to stick to 72g of protein, 30g total carbs, and however much fat rounds out my calories - hopefully about 1170 to 1200.

I've reduced my cheese consumption. When I would get hungry or want a snack, I would frequently go to an ounce of cheese, plus cheese on eggs and salads. It was satiating because of the fat, of course, but probably way more protein than I should be eating. Guess I'll be eating butter when I get hungry. I've also gone back to adding 1/2tsp cream to coffee just to up the fat.

[ElizabethLC]

You know - when I was losing 2 years ago, I would eat extra fat (like butter). I got out of the habit. Now I'm sort of back in it.

I like the fat loss habits, deMuralist!

Speck! Sorry if any protein comments I made were annoying. I am on your team. For life!! I know you said it was not directed at anyone.. but I must send the love regardless.

Stalls are the worst. They really, really suck. They are so draining, mentally and physically.

[drjlocarb]

HUGS to everyone.

By the nature of this thread, there is bound to be lots of ranting going on. We are all in the same place and should try not to take anything personally.

I think we have all tried the conventional tweaks and if they worked, we would not be here.

I am to the point that if those tweaks are not sustainable, what is the point. If I have to spend my life consumed with every bite, I will fail. I can't cut back any more. I eat 2x a day and no snacking, and I am not hungry. What else is there to do but cut out food? Is three less bites of meat and 4T more HWC really going to make that much difference? Can My body be such a well oiled machine that the ptn/fat ratio has to be tweaked within a bite or two of success or failure?

How is it possible to be stalled for YEARS!!!! How can an active 245 lb woman eat 1200-1500 vlc cals for over a year NOT lose weight.

I read all the theories(lower/higher fat, lower/higher protein, less cheese, etc), they all make sense when I read this stuff, but if, after a month, there are no results, WHAT is next???

[ElizabethLC]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

HUGS to everyone.

I think we have all tried the conventional tweaks and if they worked, we would not be here.

Well-said! I agree.

[Domino]

Obvious question here, but has everyone who has been stalled for many months and years gone to an endocrinologist and been thoroughly checked out? That's my next step. I will do that before the end of the insurance benefit year if I keep having problems.

[deMuralist]

I have to admit at this point that my stall is likely self induced, a pinch or a bite or a taste leads to larger pinch, bite, and taste. But, that usually starts from the frustration of being "good" for a while and either staying the same weight or actually gaining. At any rate, for my next doctor's visit I am planning to have her check a list of things (mostly vitamin deficiencies) just to be sure.

[deMuralist]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

HUGS to everyone.

By the nature of this thread, there is bound to be lots of ranting going on. We are all in the same place and should try not to take anything personally.

I think we have all tried the conventional tweaks and if they worked, we would not be here.

I am to the point that if those tweaks are not sustainable, what is the point. If I have to spend my life consumed with every bite, I will fail. I can't cut back any more. I eat 2x a day and no snacking, and I am not hungry. What else is there to do but cut out food? Is three less bites of meat and 4T more HWC really going to make that much difference? Can My body be such a well oiled machine that the ptn/fat ratio has to be tweaked within a bite or two of success or failure?

How is it possible to be stalled for YEARS!!!! How can an active 245 lb woman eat 1200-1500 vlc cals for over a year NOT lose weight.

I read all the theories(lower/higher fat, lower/higher protein, less cheese, etc), they all make sense when I read this stuff, but if, after a month, there are no results, WHAT is next???

ok seiously, even a sedentary woman of 245, should be able to lose at 1200-1500 calories no matter what they are as far as macro nutrients. Do you tend to eat the same thing every day? Have you tried eating the same things only spreading it out? Maybe not so low vlc? I think I would definitely have some tests run. holy cow.

[clackley]

Originally Posted by deMuralist

ok seiously, even a sedentary woman of 245, should be able to lose at 1200-1500 calories no matter what they are as far as macro nutrients. Do you tend to eat the same thing every day? Have you tried eating the same things only spreading it out? Maybe not so low vlc? I think I would definitely have some tests run. holy cow.

See DrJ's experience is very similar to mine and I believe others here. We have all tried this and that to the point that most people would have gone screaming into the woods months ago.

I started tracking my calories as an incidental to tracking my macro nutrients and I consumed about 1100 calories - sometimes less and sometimes more but mostly around 1100. My son told me I could not survive on that few but guess what? I not only survive - I also maintain my weight within a 5lb range. Not only that, I quit smoking a couple of months ago and still manage to maintain that same weight.

[drjlocarb]

hehehe

If we were cars, we would get 72mpg!

[clackley]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

hehehe

If we were cars, we would get 72mpg!

[ladybear]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

HUGS to everyone.

I am to the point that if those tweaks are not sustainable, what is the point. If I have to spend my life consumed with every bite, I will fail. I can't cut back any more. I eat 2x a day and no snacking, and I am not hungry. What else is there to do but cut out food? Is three less bites of meat and 4T more HWC really going to make that much difference? Can My body be such a well oiled machine that the ptn/fat ratio has to be tweaked within a bite or two of success or failure?

Exactly! I feel that I have cut all I can cut, what else is there?

This has to be sustainable for me, so I try to focus on any positives I see (good blood glucose numbers, changing body shape eevveerr ssoo sslloowwllyy), and continue what I am doing.

I do have a glass (or 3) of wine most Saturday nights when I'm hanging out with my friends, which is down from when I used to have a small glass most evenings. When in a party/celebration/holiday situation, I may have a few bites of more carbage than my day-to-day woe (NO sugar, though). Whether I'm staying completely on plan and no alcohol, or small indulgences on occasion, it still doesn't seem to change, so I have to live my life .

[Speck333]

Originally Posted by Mobear

Aw Speck...I am so sorry you are so upset . I hope you feel better today. I have felt adrift for several months...trying this and that with no clear guidelines.

For right now, I'm going to try my best to stick to 72g of protein, 30g total carbs, and however much fat rounds out my calories - hopefully about 1170 to 1200.

I've reduced my cheese consumption. When I would get hungry or want a snack, I would frequently go to an ounce of cheese, plus cheese on eggs and salads. It was satiating because of the fat, of course, but probably way more protein than I should be eating. Guess I'll be eating butter when I get hungry. I've also gone back to adding 1/2tsp cream to coffee just to up the fat.

I am feeling better and more optimistic today. It helps when the scale is cooperating a bit.

Originally Posted by ElizabethLC

You know - when I was losing 2 years ago, I would eat extra fat (like butter). I got out of the habit. Now I'm sort of back in it.

I like the fat loss habits, deMuralist!

Speck! Sorry if any protein comments I made were annoying. I am on your team. For life!! I know you said it was not directed at anyone.. but I must send the love regardless.

Stalls are the worst. They really, really suck. They are so draining, mentally and physically.

I'm sorry I made you feel singled out. I really wasn't picking on you, or anyone else, but you know that. I don't want anyone to be hesitant to discuss options or possible solutions.

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

HUGS to everyone.

By the nature of this thread, there is bound to be lots of ranting going on. We are all in the same place and should try not to take anything personally.

I think we have all tried the conventional tweaks and if they worked, we would not be here.

I am to the point that if those tweaks are not sustainable, what is the point. If I have to spend my life consumed with every bite, I will fail. I can't cut back any more. I eat 2x a day and no snacking, and I am not hungry. What else is there to do but cut out food? Is three less bites of meat and 4T more HWC really going to make that much difference? Can My body be such a well oiled machine that the ptn/fat ratio has to be tweaked within a bite or two of success or failure?

How is it possible to be stalled for YEARS!!!! How can an active 245 lb woman eat 1200-1500 vlc cals for over a year NOT lose weight.

I read all the theories(lower/higher fat, lower/higher protein, less cheese, etc), they all make sense when I read this stuff, but if, after a month, there are no results, WHAT is next???

Totally. I simply can't live the rest of my life obsessing about every morsel I consume. It just shouldn't be this hard! waaaaahhh!

Originally Posted by Domino

Obvious question here, but has everyone who has been stalled for many months and years gone to an endocrinologist and been thoroughly checked out? That's my next step. I will do that before the end of the insurance benefit year if I keep having problems.

No, no I haven't. I've been thinking about it more and more. I'm not sure I can convince my HMO doctor that I need tests. I know Cathy has had the thyroid panel done, and it was negative.

Originally Posted by deMuralist

ok seiously, even a sedentary woman of 245, should be able to lose at 1200-1500 calories no matter what they are as far as macro nutrients. Do you tend to eat the same thing every day? Have you tried eating the same things only spreading it out? Maybe not so low vlc? I think I would definitely have some tests run. holy cow.

It doesn't make any sense, does it? But here we are.

Originally Posted by clackley

See DrJ's experience is very similar to mine and I believe others here. We have all tried this and that to the point that most people would have gone screaming into the woods months ago.

I started tracking my calories as an incidental to tracking my macro nutrients and I consumed about 1100 calories - sometimes less and sometimes more but mostly around 1100. My son told me I could not survive on that few but guess what? I not only survive - I also maintain my weight within a 5lb range. Not only that, I quit smoking a couple of months ago and still manage to maintain that same weight.

Isn't that the damned truth! I see folks giving up and running away, and I just don't have the patience for them anymore.
I, too, have been on 1100 calories for months on end, and nadda. It makes no fricken sense.

[Mobear]

Wait, wait...if we are cars I want to be a VW Bug:. Years ago I carpooled with someone who drove a VW Bug and it was quite uncomfortable...didn't heat very well...but was so dammm cute....I want to be one!

I recently had thyroid testing done and came up with mixed results IMO. TSH was in normal range as was T4. T3 was in bottom third of range and freeT3 (active T3) was at 2.2 when the bottom of the range is 2.0. This testing came about because my lipid panel in January showed extremely high LDL of 253 - I should be below 100. I had stopped my long term statin last July because I though LC would fix my lipids...and it did, sort of. Everything was much better except for the LDL. What I've discovered is that LDL is cleared by the thyroid hormone T3. According to Chris Masterjohn, Chris Kresser, Mark Sisson, some paleo boards, LC can trigger a conversion problem in the liver so that T4 doesn't convert to freeT3. Most of these sources (plus Jenny Ruhl from her website) mention raising carb levels to stop the problem with converting T4 to T3. It appears that the thyroid is downregulating energy to maintain the status quo in the perceived famine.

T3 is also what gives us our energy and very likely impacts weight loss. I listened to Dr. Westman on Ask the LC Experts (thanks Cathy) and he talks about the problem with LDL and mentions that he tests thyroid and supplements if there is a problem. I have no idea whether an endo would work with me on this or not since most of the tests are in the midrange.

I'm making a big effort to get 30g carbs at day because I was way below that. I think Jankintz (sp?) mentioned upping her calories to get weight loss going again. I am at my stats weight right now but seem to be just bouncing up and down so no celebrating at this point.

I should also mention that I got a response on the thyroid subforum that endos don't believe that a conversion problem exists and that my numbers are fine, and that we should only be looking online at mainstream websites like Mayo or Webmd. So, this stuff is just my opinion.

If you are in the U.S. you can get thyroid tests without a doctors order through healthcheckusa. It doesn't take insurance and I think the price for thyroidII is about $85. Doesn't go to insurance so its out of pocket.

Have a great day everyone

[deMuralist]

I watched a video yesterday, a colleague of Dr. Lustig. She was giving a talk about the science of diets that work and don't work. (caveat: statistics don't always relate to an individual)

In the end she said that low carb diets are proven more effective in the first year of dieting but that the advantages taper off at one year and a low carb and low fat diet become equal (as far as effective weight loss is concerned not as far as health ie lipids are concerned). And basically the most effective diet is the one you can stick to for life.

She did suggest that if you are stuck while on low carb you could consider doing low fat for a period of time.

For me I have been dieting for 40 years and I went from a chubby 13 year old to a morbidly obese 53 year old, and have only been doing the low carb for the past year. I still have many tweaks I can try with it. So I will admit that any advice I give comes from the perspective of a low carb newbie, but not from a dieting newbie.