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Old 11-22-2012, 02:39 PM   #841
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Maureen, that is so great!!! I wonder if it just takes some of us longer to get the benefits of N.K.?

Thanks Shelley but I must point out that I don't know for certain that it is the berberine or the N.K. or a combination of both.

Happy Thanksgiving to all my stall buddies!!
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:08 AM   #842
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Originally Posted by Mobear View Post
Hope everyone has had a good day. DH and I went to a buffet and it was very good. Carbs were no problem, but oh my did I overeat protein! Since protein takes longer to turn to glucose than carbs, I am still waiting for the blood sugar spike. No more carbs or protein for me today!! Maybe some shiratake "soup" if I am really hungry.

I weighed this morning....and was 187.7 . Although I have been trying for NK for so long it is still hard to believe that I seem to be losing weight. Keep thinking that tomorrow I will be above my 192 stall weight. Maybe eventually (if this continues) I will get used to it!

Praying that the rest of my stalled friends have better results during the holidays and into the future.
Woohoooo!!!! Congratulations, Maureen! Here's hoping the downward trend continues through the holidays and through 2013.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:20 AM   #843
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I wasn't going to post about this until I lost all my regained weight but I am too excited to keep it to myself (there is a reason I am known as Chatty Cathy )

Nutritional ketosis for months and after almost 5 wks. of berberine (Glycosolve), I have lost 5.5 lbs. . Most of this has been in the last 2 wks. when I doubled my dosage (from 500mg to 1000mg - one in the morning and one in the late afternoon).

Four more lbs. and I will be back to my stall weight. Never thought I would be ecstatic to see that weight again but I will be!!

Just needed to share and the main board is far too anti-N.K.. You would think that low carb was low fat....
That's wonderful, Cathy!

I've been away from the computer, so I couldn't post until now, but the news brought a big grin to my face when I read this post. So glad that your admirable patience and discipline are finally paying off.

I also want to thank you for responding--politely, persuasively, and eloquently, always--to the NK bashing on the main board. I don't understand why this approach periodically gets dismissed as faddish, unhealthy, and unnecessary, when other approaches seem to get a YMMV, whatever-works-for-you pass. Your responses are great, and much more reasoned and polite than mine would be.

I'm continuing with NK plus primal plus JUDDD on my JUDDD up days and mostly lean protein plus a little fat on my JUDDD down days. Down days are getting easier and easier, and this seems to be working for me for now, though I have been away from the scale while visiting family for 10 days, so I'm unsure of my current weight. At least my clothes still fit, so I don't think I've gained.
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:00 AM   #844
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Thank so much for saying that Sven. It is difficult to know how I 'come across' - communication is difficult at the best of times and when it is limited to written words - who know?

Really glad JUDDD is working for you and hope you have continued success.

I am down another 1/2 a lb this morning (for a total of 6 now). I keep thinking something must be wrong with my scale. It is unreal after so long.
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:53 AM   #845
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Svenskamae I have to give youfor managing JUDDD/NK/Paleo. Wow, that is impressive and I'm glad it's working for you.

Cathy I also thought your comments were spot on! I keep wanting to reply to those threads but I get so emotional and hurt that I just can't. I also do not understand why so many people get the YMMV and NK is just dog doodoo. For what it is worth, I also thought the theLossGirl and BigStevie did respond in a very positive manner. Since I rely so much on LCF for support, those kind of posts really bother me.

Cathy I am so happy for you . I really do think that for some of us that are really damaged NK takes a long time - and seems to be helped by metformin or the supplement you are taking.

I am still paying for my transgressions yesterday. My DH continued to eat crap carbs until after 10p.m. when he went to bed. Somewhere in there I got hungry and ate some very thin cheese slices and deli meat. I took insulin about 5:00 p.m. but blood glucose continued to rise and I took extra at bedtime. Unfortunately it contined to rise through the night and this morning I was at 110 fasting. Not at all suprised with the amount of protein I ate.

Pushed the magic reset button this morning and breakfast is coffee with coconut oil and other meals will be back on track.

Drj hope you had a good day yesterday. Shelley hope you find your "sweetspot" for protein.

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Old 11-23-2012, 09:11 AM   #846
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Good morning all.....I'm just thrilled for Sven, Maureen and Cathy with the "it's about time" losses!

I am only reading the NK, 80-15-5 and this thread, so don't know what you are all talking about. It's all I can do to keep up with these 3! There will always be naysayers with all things in life...we just have to find what works best for us and let them find their own way. Look at what Dr. Atkins went through all his adult life with the medical and scientific people!

Yesterday was a bad day for me. I have done LC/SF/GF Thanksgivings for years (10?) and this was no different other than I made hubby hot buttered rum batter (brown sugar, butter and spices) and my finger found it and then it found my mouth. I haven't had sugar in a dozen years on purpose! I also made him some yukon gold mashed potatoes. I had about 1/4 cup of mashed potatoes, probably 2 TBSP of that sugar/butter hot buttered rum mixture on my finger!!!! and the rest was all legal, but I took my BG 2 hours after dinner ( and I did not overeat, did not have any pumpkin pie or anything else but 2 sips of hubby's wine), and my BG was 135. I have never been that high in my life. This morning my fasting BG was 116. On the other thread, I was told by many that meant that my meter was probably "off" as I have the nova max that was something like 27 out of 30 in the consumer reports testing for glucose reading accuracy. I did 2 meters for 2 mornings and they were off by 10 points on the same drop of blood.

I have had all docs laugh when I have told them of my concern with my FBG test results rising over the years and I have been GF, SF and LC and they still hover around 100-107. And now? Maybe I should try some of the berberine? But I don't have a doctor. I've gone to 7 in 7 years and they all say they won't even talk about diabetes with me until I get a reading of 120 or higher. Great. They also think thyroid is tested by TSH. So, I'm pretty lost.

Well, I had my one day of "cheats" which were 2 sips of white wine, 1/4 cup of mashed yukon gold potatoes and the hot buttered rum mixture. Those on the other threads had the same cheats and had good BG readings and stayed in ketosis. So, I *am* a freak of this way of eating/testing. I didn't bother wasting a ketone strip as last week I wasn't even in ketosis with a .3 as I recall (that was before any cheating). Can you tell I'm getting frustrated? I'm not even going to post on the other threads...they are all losing and all staying in ketosis even eating things I couldn't imagine trying.

Since starting this in August, my weight is UP 4.8#. Today after my cheating, I'm .2 from the highest weight of my life. I know it will come back off (2.5# gain from yesterday), but why do I gain so much when others just see a blip and then continue losing and they cheat worse than I do...many of them have wine with dinner or on weekends, and eat lots of carbs! Hmmm......this is frustrating, but I'm glad that all of you are finally finding something that is causing you to lose. I cannot imagine doing the JUDDD/NK and Paleo all at once! Yikes...so much to consider.

Where's Drjlocarb? She's the one that got me to come here! Hope she's doing okay.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:38 AM   #847
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Thanks Maureen - I know you & I are usually in agreement with some of the mean girls.

Shelley, you raise a lot of issues and I am no expert but I would like to first send you hugs. I know what it is like dealing with p.c.p. and particularly those that are settled in their ways. Your experience sounds a lot like mine with the thyroid stuff. The only solution for me is to become sicker as well. Then I may be sent to a endo but who knows how 'old school' that one might be. Very frustrating and I have been struggling with this for a while now.

The fasting b.g. in many low carbers is higher than one might expect and it can be an issue of physiological insulin restistance (not pathological - big difference). What is happening (or is the hypothesis) is that because the body has to make the required glucose through gluconeogenisis, the liver has become very good at that and over produces at night time. From what I can glean, your numbers are typical and not something to be concerned about.

Having said that - I have similiar #'s and do still feel uneasy about it because I am worried about the insulin response......

I started N.K. in June of this year and did indeed gain lbs. It was a continuation of a slow regain that had been going on. I felt that I wasn't doing any worse on N.K. as I was with vlc and any other strategy, and N.K. makes a lot of sense to me. The problem is that it is based on research and observation of relatively healthy people (I think) and does not necessarily transfer 100% for those that are metabolically damaged and have many years of that as history. For that reason, I made my own adjustments that I thought made sense and felt it was going to take time. And true to form - it has.
Berberine is good for quite a few things other than regulating b.g.. Here is a link to a wiki article that you may find interesting. After reading it, I thought, everyone past a certain age should be taking it!!

Berberine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The reference studies are interesting as well.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:41 AM   #848
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OK...first, I'm going to go find the thread about the "mean girls" as I'm curious as to what people are saying! tee hee hee

Next, Cathy, thank you SO MUCH for your comments. I have read all about berberine and have thought I would wait for others to try it first. I don't need to add more "pills" to the regime, but probably will. I do have high cholesterol and have most of my adult life, even when I was nearly anorexic and 109# and dancing 6-8 hours a day in a company. Shall we say "skinny". My mother was horrified at how I looked. I thought I looked great! ha ha (nearly 5' 6" tall) So, as you can tell, I am definitely metabolically challenged from what I did in my life. I was hated meat...most meats. I would do eggs, but not "meat" of any kind other than occasional white fish or occasional chicken. I think I really "did myself in" for years. (I'm 64)

I think I'm going to order a different glucose meter to use for testing to see if that works better. The NK original thread by Kristn had people saying that I should not trust the numbers on the nova max. So, that is probably going to be my next step....along with berberine perhaps. I guess the theory is to start "low" to avoid the side effects and then take the right dose after a couple weeks.

thanks so much for your caring and the link and information you shared. I'm going to head off to the gym.....am determined to keep up with the weight lifting for my bones and mental health. I"m usually the only woman upstairs with the men and weights. The women usually take the "classes" and mostly cardio stuff. Not for me! I was so glad when Phinney/Volek made the comment about that...resistance being best, cardio being worst. That is the conclusion I came to for myself years ago.

Hugs to all!!!!!
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:45 PM   #849
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Shelley we have all been frustrated with "why doesn't this work for me???" Other posters can do this, that, or the other without any consequences and have good results. Most of us on this thread struggle to get any good results no matter how faithful we are to our program.

I will be 64 in about 1 month. Type2 for 30 years, on insulin 20yrs. and inspite of going low carb still have not been able to get my A1c anywhere close to what Dr. Bernstein talks about. By reducing protein to 45-50g a day I have lowered it again....to 5.5 but no where close to the 5% or lower he talks about. I could go on and on with this but I think you understand the frustration and searching that we all do.

I started trying for NK in July and have only over the last few weeks lost any weight below my stall weight of 192 (was at that weight for 15 or so months).

If you can get your doctor to check your A1c and it is 6% or below you probably don't have a problem. Prolonged bg over 140 is what really causes complications. Most endos believe fasting numbers/A1cs need to be lower than most primary care doctors. If you can find an endo who will review your tests and your numbers are higher than a clinical endo wants to see, you might be prescribed something like metformin. Or, you could try to supplement Cathy is referring to.

Oh, I sent you a private message!
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:15 PM   #850
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[QUOTE=clackley;16095219]Thanks Maureen - I know you & I are usually in agreement with some of the mean girls.

/QUOTE]

OMG - I must reread my posts before hitting the submit button. That is suppose to say 'usually in agreement about some of the mean girls. Yes, sometime in agreement with but usually, not.
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:55 PM   #851
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Shelley we have all been frustrated with "why doesn't this work for me???" Other posters can do this, that, or the other without any consequences and have good results. Most of us on this thread struggle to get any good results no matter how faithful we are to our program.

I will be 64 in about 1 month. Type2 for 30 years, on insulin 20yrs. and inspite of going low carb still have not been able to get my A1c anywhere close to what Dr. Bernstein talks about. By reducing protein to 45-50g a day I have lowered it again....to 5.5 but no where close to the 5% or lower he talks about. I could go on and on with this but I think you understand the frustration and searching that we all do.

I started trying for NK in July and have only over the last few weeks lost any weight below my stall weight of 192 (was at that weight for 15 or so months).

If you can get your doctor to check your A1c and it is 6% or below you probably don't have a problem. Prolonged bg over 140 is what really causes complications. Most endos believe fasting numbers/A1cs need to be lower than most primary care doctors. If you can find an endo who will review your tests and your numbers are higher than a clinical endo wants to see, you might be prescribed something like metformin. Or, you could try to supplement Cathy is referring to.

Oh, I sent you a private message!
Hi..got your private message and checked out the link and posts you were all referring to. Interesting. I recognize some of the names from the thyroid forum years ago!

I'm glad to be here as I am struggling to understand this. Perhaps that's part of the problem...that we can't understand it because of our bodies. Do you suppose that what might work for us this month, will not next month, and on and on like that?

I was so frustrated this morning that I came home and had a turkey sandwich on GF bread (total of 25 carbs!!!) I never do things like that! I also had a protein shake with HWC after my workout....about 20 grams of protein. Did a one hour PP test and it was 105. 1 hour after breakfast (spam and 2 egg) was 116.

I did have a Ha1C test done at my request in April. 5.8. I was told that was fine. But a few diabetics on the other threads said that for LC and sugar free and gluten free, that was high...same with my reg. tests.

When I tried lowering my protein, my lean muscle mass decreased and my bodyfat increased. So, I can't lower my protein.

One thing that is VERY obvious to me now even not being in ketosis, but eating this way is that my weight lifting has changed. I can lift much heavier and do more reps...sort of what Phinney/Volek were talking about in the performance book (I read them both). I decided that this weekend (Thurs/Fri/Sat/Sun) I'm not logging in anything. I'm only testing BG and I'm eating "in moderation" like a normal person. Maybe it will reset something in me. I've been doing what you've all been doing for years...LC, VLC, Atkins' 72 and now NK for 3 months. The only time I have lost weight and inches was doing Body For Life and eating nonfat and TONS of protein. Protein powder in water or unsweetened almond/coconut milk. I could go back to that and drop the 20# again, but I do not think that gave me good health. So much information out there, and I just want to be healthy, with the *bonus* of losing to my goal weight.

Maureen, we are nearly the same age!!!!
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:27 PM   #852
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[B]Cathy[B] I knew exactly what you meant . No need to explain.

Shelley I read a website called blood sugar 101 for info on diabetes. The person who runs it tends to annoy people with her attitude, but she does have lots of good information on the site. This is what she says about heart attack risk and pp blood sugar:

What is that truly normal level? Research has made it crystal clear. It is under 140 mg/dl (7.7) at one hour after eating. Additional heart=attack-specific research suggests that the likelihood of having a heart attack rises significantly when post meal blood sugars go over 155 mg/dl (8.6 mmol/L) at one hour after eating.

This is very different what the american diabetes association advocates.

I also wanted to say that the stress we all put on ourselves when our plans don't work anymore is considerable. Personally I believe all that stress raises cortisol and makes losing all the more difficult and blood sugar higher.

Take a little break from logging - I'm sure you must be good at judging what is appropriate.
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:29 PM   #853
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Thanks Maureen...

I don't let myself get stressed too much. I get "annoyed" which feels different to me. I'm retired and have a very simple and easy life. I am very very fortunate!!! I have a great husband who is helpful and independent....coming up on 34 years of marriage. He feels bad for me since he can eliminate one item and lose 5# overnight! Men!!!

I'll check out the blood sugar 101 website. Thanks for the numbers though...guess I am doing okay, even with a faulty meter for glucose testing.

I think I will take the next 2 days and eat properly, not measure/weigh/log and not do any bloodtests until Monday morning. Will be an interesting experiment. I pulled out my ****** logs from Jan. through March 2011 as that's when I weighed 20# less. I was eating nearly identically to how I am now other than 72% fat instead of my nearly 80-83%.....that in itself was interesting!

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Old 11-23-2012, 07:12 PM   #854
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Hi all the stalled buddies! Well 1 or 2 of us are still stalled.

I have been cooking and running and trying to work too.

I made pecan pie, pumpkin pie, peanut butter silk pie, corn pudding, bread (all LC), and smoked a turkey for Thanksgiving. Come to find out, the table full of diabetics were all eating the potatoes, rolls, stuffing, candied yams, and gravy...also!?! I was so disgusted that I was asked to make things and then they all ate the carbage too. They could have bought all that stuff high carb for much cheaper than it cost me to make it. OH, and they ate the high carb pumpkin pie first!

I have no family around so was invited to this dinner by a friend whose family is full of diabetics. I don't want to hear you all defend them. I want my little pity party. Thank you very much!

I did very well and stuck to all LC, not NK, but all LC and didn't overeat...much.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:48 PM   #855
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Cathy, I hate when those few surface every 2-3 months and....well, you know what they do. Maybe if I was 26 and had lost those pesky extra 8 pounds in 2 months, I would know it all too. But, I was an almost 300 pound person who can't seem to lose those last, pesky, FIFTY pounds! What would I know.


I am soo happy for those of you who are losing. I know you have all been working VERY hard and I hope it will continue!!

I have to admit, this low protein is very hard for me. I know, I know..it's moderate protein. Not for me. It is LOW protein as compared to what I have been eating for the last few years. I look at the dab of meat on my plate and I want to cry. I also go back and forth on the amount of protein I need. Goal weight?, LBM?, % body fat? I feel I have more muscle than most women, or is that an excuse? Do I want to lose muscle by cutting protein to very minimal amounts? My job and lifestyle depend on my muscle mass.

I got a 4 year scholarship in collage for track. I got the Purdue Univ. discus throw record in my first meet my Freshman year. I could bench press and squat more than the quarterback on the football team. I feel like I need more protein. Is that an excuse to eat more protein than the equations say is necessary?

More pity party please.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:30 AM   #856
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Drj - I hear you! I knew everything at 26 too! Of course that would explain why I am where I am now!

I do agree that protein limitations are difficult. I tend to make things with my protein so the small portions aren't so starkly tiny. I am having lamb chops today and that is really hard because lamb is one of my favs and the portion is sooooo small. Better than nothing though. I am going to make lamb stew next time and make it go further....

I do think that protein requirements may vary widely and you should be considering your physical makeup and daily demands. Women do not want to be losing muscle mass especially past a certain age as it is difficult to get it back. I am not sure how to measure that accurately....
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:14 AM   #857
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I am also concerned about losing muscle - not that I have very much. Don't know much about how to measure muscle. I remember something about dunk tanks to determine how much body fat is present. Don't have anything like that really handy Some scales apparently have a way to measure body fat so I'm thinking maybe about one of those. My scale was new in the spring of 2012 so another scale seems silly. Also, I guess the scales that measure body fat aren't really accurate. Is there any other way to tell if you are losing body fat or muscle??

When I eat out with friends for lunch, I take home 1/2 to 2/3 of the protein served. I end up with enough for several lunches....seems ridiculous! I seem to be eating a huge amount of shiratake - a bag a day. Seems like the only way I have of upping the volume without a lot of added protein. I'm still aiming for 45 - 50g a day and most days I do ok.
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Old 11-24-2012, 01:03 PM   #858
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Hey everyone!! I have been away for a while (law school is a stress factory!) but I have been told about this group and thought I'd drop by to say hello!! I seemed to have (knock on wood) broken my over-a-year long stall...!! YAY! I hope I don't speak too soon but I am officially at the lowest weight I have EVER been now Maybe I can share what I did, and learn from all of you

Personally, I have not done anything 'radical'...except stop trying everything radical. I just decided to limit calories and keep carbs very low, and try to find a way to do this while holding down a part time job AND going to law school full time. Basically food has to be quick and portable.

This is pretty much what I eat:
Breakfast: coffee with cream, One Minute Muffin (cocoa flavored with calorie free sweetener)
Lunch: Cup of coffee with soymilk
Dinner: a normal portion of meat (chicken breast, steak, etc), every other day or so, I will have a small portion LC veg (pumpkin or creamed spinach). Some days I just have the veggies and half of the meat.
Dessert: Sometimes I have chocolate made with Stevia (yeah, it is wonderful! They just started selling it here!).

Otherwise, yeah. Sounds boring but it isn't! The chocolate saves me If I have to work at night, I will bring a One Minute Muffin and eat that. Sometimes I have a ceasar salad for dinner, too, so it isn't always just meat.

I think the key for me has been to limit calories, carbs and protein so that I stay in ketosis pretty much all the time.

Last year, I lost down to 81 Kg, and then bounced back up to 83. I tried everything to break that stall for MONTHS. I tried JUDDD (several times in several incarnations), fat fasting, meat and egg, Atkins 72, etc. Nothing worked! I think what finally DID work was persistence.

After my vacation this summer I had bounced up to 85.9 kg or so and it was *SO DEPRESSING*. I had a pretty stressful couple of weeks where I ended up eating flax muffins and meat and little else, and lo and behold, the weight started to come off. I am now down to an ALL TIME LOW of 78 Kg! I think I have lost about 15 pounds in a month (of course some of that was 're-losing'!) I hope it continues...my goal is not far off, and neither is being a 'normal weight'. So keep your fingers crossed for me And I hope this info can maybe help someone else.

Anyhow, it feels great to feel hopeful about weight loss for the first time in a year or more!!
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:17 PM   #859
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Cathy, I hate when those few surface every 2-3 months and....well, you know what they do. Maybe if I was 26 and had lost those pesky extra 8 pounds in 2 months, I would know it all too. But, I was an almost 300 pound person who can't seem to lose those last, pesky, FIFTY pounds! What would I know.


I am soo happy for those of you who are losing. I know you have all been working VERY hard and I hope it will continue!!

I have to admit, this low protein is very hard for me. I know, I know..it's moderate protein. Not for me. It is LOW protein as compared to what I have been eating for the last few years. I look at the dab of meat on my plate and I want to cry. I also go back and forth on the amount of protein I need. Goal weight?, LBM?, % body fat? I feel I have more muscle than most women, or is that an excuse? Do I want to lose muscle by cutting protein to very minimal amounts? My job and lifestyle depend on my muscle mass.

I got a 4 year scholarship in collage for track. I got the Purdue Univ. discus throw record in my first meet my Freshman year. I could bench press and squat more than the quarterback on the football team. I feel like I need more protein. Is that an excuse to eat more protein than the equations say is necessary?

More pity party please.
I loved this post!!!! Made me smile bigtime. And makes me realize where my brain is in all this. I have been following the macros to the max, posting everything on ****** and in the 3 months I've done NK, I have mostly be out of ketosis and I have gained weight. AND....I do have a Tanita scale that measures bodyfat and is the one that you can change to athletic mode...meaning I work out and am not sedentary. I paid attention to when I dropped protein and upped fat...my lean body mass suffered a loss and my fat weight went UP! So, I'm with Drjlocarb on this one. And for the last few days I have had more protein. I've even had protein shakes! I am not logging on ****** nor am I counting anything. I promised myself I wouldn't until Monday. I agree that some of us just need the extra protein. I was never hungry with higher fat, but I just never felt "right". Stomach issues and tired a lot...falling asleep. So, Thursday I decided to eat what I wanted and to have more protein. I feel like me again. The scale went up 2.5# after Thanksgiving (but I ate naughty spoonfuls of things), and this morning I was down .8# of that 2.5# gain. Tomorrow is another day and my weigh/measure day. Should be interesting. I'm enjoying my "holiday" from NK eating. Having more protein and far less fat! No fat bombs or MCT oil and no coconut oil either. It's a good experiment for me.

And....I have to say that I thought I knew it all when I was 16!!!!
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:27 PM   #860
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I am also concerned about losing muscle - not that I have very much. Don't know much about how to measure muscle. I remember something about dunk tanks to determine how much body fat is present. Don't have anything like that really handy Some scales apparently have a way to measure body fat so I'm thinking maybe about one of those. My scale was new in the spring of 2012 so another scale seems silly. Also, I guess the scales that measure body fat aren't really accurate. Is there any other way to tell if you are losing body fat or muscle??

When I eat out with friends for lunch, I take home 1/2 to 2/3 of the protein served. I end up with enough for several lunches....seems ridiculous! I seem to be eating a huge amount of shiratake - a bag a day. Seems like the only way I have of upping the volume without a lot of added protein. I'm still aiming for 45 - 50g a day and most days I do ok.
Hi Maureen....I don't have muscle at all.....took 2 years of 2 days a week of personal training with the goal of doing ONE pushup. Trainer fired me after 2 years. Next week (new state, new gym) I go to the darling gal that took over at my new gym and she said that is nonsense and so I am signed up to meet with her and decide how to proceed to gain muscle. She is fit and adorable, but also in her 20's! I was fit and trim until my 40's! So, I just hope she can help.

The only way to tell if you are gaining or losing fat and/or lean body mass is to know the bodyfat. You take your total weight and then have to know the percentage of bodyfat (the scale or being dunked!). When you know your fat weight, you deduct it from the total weight which gives you your lean body mass weight. And that is what I have done for years, but the NK eating of the "moderate protein" is not enough for me to keep the lean body mass weight..it's declining and the fat weight is increasing. So, this is not working for MY body type. But I'm not giving in quite yet as that Skaldeman guy said 6 months and I just bought 5 boxes of ketone strips for my Christmas present to myself and to save on shipping costs (they were free with 5 boxes). So, I want to get back to it, but with the Phinney/Volek higher percentage of protein and lower percentage of fat. They have quite a range, and I guess most like the lower protein and higher fat. I do get into ketosis on a fat fast, but no way to live like that.

It's great that you can lower your protein and not feel poorly and still lose a bit at a time. I'm wondering if Drj and I are just requiring more protein.

A good thing for us to know is how much each of us have exercised up until now. Drj did lots and has great upper body strength (just what I'm looking to gain!!!!), but I have tremendous lower body/leg strength from dancing all my life (ballet/jazz). So, maybe youthful muscle mass has something to do in all this?! Any thoughts on that?
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:33 PM   #861
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Hey everyone!! I have been away for a while (law school is a stress factory!) but I have been told about this group and thought I'd drop by to say hello!! I seemed to have (knock on wood) broken my over-a-year long stall...!! YAY! I hope I don't speak too soon but I am officially at the lowest weight I have EVER been now Maybe I can share what I did, and learn from all of you

Personally, I have not done anything 'radical'...except stop trying everything radical. I just decided to limit calories and keep carbs very low, and try to find a way to do this while holding down a part time job AND going to law school full time. Basically food has to be quick and portable.

This is pretty much what I eat:
Breakfast: coffee with cream, One Minute Muffin (cocoa flavored with calorie free sweetener)
Lunch: Cup of coffee with soymilk
Dinner: a normal portion of meat (chicken breast, steak, etc), every other day or so, I will have a small portion LC veg (pumpkin or creamed spinach). Some days I just have the veggies and half of the meat.
Dessert: Sometimes I have chocolate made with Stevia (yeah, it is wonderful! They just started selling it here!).

Otherwise, yeah. Sounds boring but it isn't! The chocolate saves me If I have to work at night, I will bring a One Minute Muffin and eat that. Sometimes I have a ceasar salad for dinner, too, so it isn't always just meat.

I think the key for me has been to limit calories, carbs and protein so that I stay in ketosis pretty much all the time.

Last year, I lost down to 81 Kg, and then bounced back up to 83. I tried everything to break that stall for MONTHS. I tried JUDDD (several times in several incarnations), fat fasting, meat and egg, Atkins 72, etc. Nothing worked! I think what finally DID work was persistence.

After my vacation this summer I had bounced up to 85.9 kg or so and it was *SO DEPRESSING*. I had a pretty stressful couple of weeks where I ended up eating flax muffins and meat and little else, and lo and behold, the weight started to come off. I am now down to an ALL TIME LOW of 78 Kg! I think I have lost about 15 pounds in a month (of course some of that was 're-losing'!) I hope it continues...my goal is not far off, and neither is being a 'normal weight'. So keep your fingers crossed for me And I hope this info can maybe help someone else.

Anyhow, it feels great to feel hopeful about weight loss for the first time in a year or more!!
Hi....congratulations on finding what works for you! I think that's great! And thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

I don't touch flax or soy (hypothyroid), and have found for myself that limiting calories is a big no no for me...that's when my body goes into starvation mode and really messes up my endocrine system. I"m 64 years old and have had plenty of experience trying that route for myself with good results at first, and then my metabolism really went out of whack (as did my hormones) and I was pretty sick for 2 years. I find that any less than 1600 calories/day causes me to stall or gain. I can do it for one day, but not 2 in a row. I seem to lose when I eat more which makes no sense other than my body realizes I'm not depriving it of fuel I suppose. That's what makes this so very interesting to me....how different we all are and what works for some does not work for others. It's such a great detective game!!! Too bad we can't get quick answers like detective shows on TV!

So happy for you that you have found what works. I'm still a work in progress.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:46 PM   #862
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Drj - I hear you! I knew everything at 26 too! Of course that would explain why I am where I am now!

I do agree that protein limitations are difficult. I tend to make things with my protein so the small portions aren't so starkly tiny. I am having lamb chops today and that is really hard because lamb is one of my favs and the portion is sooooo small. Better than nothing though. I am going to make lamb stew next time and make it go further....

I do think that protein requirements may vary widely and you should be considering your physical makeup and daily demands. Women do not want to be losing muscle mass especially past a certain age as it is difficult to get it back. I am not sure how to measure that accurately....
OOps...missed this post. Cathy, I'm really envious that you are able to work well with the protein situation. I have lost muscle mass in this last month, so am going to lower fat and up my protein and see what happens. If you can find out your bodyfat (one of the scales or having calipher skin fold or getting "dunked") you will know your lean body mass and fat percentage. That's how you figure lean body mass (muscle) But you have to check it often. I check it weekly.

Have you and others tried the different ranges of protein/fat to see what works and doesn't work. I think the NK thread and 80-15-5 threads do the lowest possible protein, but the 80-15-5 thread (led by Darin) is raising calories and protein levels by a lot since it started a couple months ago. They are starting with the high protein levels recommended by Phinney/Volek and then slowly decreasing if necessary to stay in ketosis and lose.

I haven't tried that yet. Maybe that's my next step? Has anyone else tried that?
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:57 AM   #863
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Originally Posted by shelley View Post
It's such a great detective game!!! Too bad we can't get quick answers like detective shows on TV!

So happy for you that you have found what works. I'm still a work in progress.
Yeah, it really is amazing how different people's bodies are! That is why it always bugs me that people assume there is a 'right' way to lose weight. We all have to figure out what will work with our bodies special challenges!! Good luck finding what will work for you
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:20 AM   #864
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Stardustshadow I was thinking about you the other day and wondering how law school and working were going for you. So happy you have found a eating plan that is working for you.

Shelley I wasn't tracking protein in July when I started the NK/Optimal approach to my woe. But, since the beginning in 9/2010 I was being guided by the old WW protein rule of 2oz breakfast/4oz lunch/6oz supper. I'm sure there were many days where I was eating 15-20oz of protein. I wasn't counting any of the protein in veggies, either Dr. Bernstein says to convert oz to grams multiply by 6 so on some days I was eating 72g and many days I was much higher and probably around 100g or 120g. I think he missed the boat on this x6 because most sources I've found now say use 7 for the conversion (which makes my 20oz even worse)!

For a few months I ate mostly protein and hardly any veggies or fat. Felt like I was going to die. Thyroid panel wasn't terrible but my FT3 was 2.2 with a lab base of 2. Trying to heal myself I just went back to 30g of carbs and a more normal woe.

July 2012 I saw the blog by Jimmy and people started experimenting with NK. On my way down to 45g protein/day I stopped along the way many times for a week or two. It wasn't until the protein got to 52ish grams that the weekly up and down bounce seemed to go slightly lower to my stall weight. Eventually I got to 192. When I dropped the protein to 45g-50g a day I actually went below 192 and am 188 now.

At one point in trying to figure out LBM I measured various things, plugged all that into the calculator and came up with 50% body fat

I'm not athletic and will never be. I've hardly ever been at anything like a normal weight. For many years (until 9/2010) I took huge amounts of insulin! Don't even have an actual goal weight. It would be nice if my body fat would drop, but I really have to have a woe (low carb per Dr. Bernstein) that I can sustain. Being frantically hungry simply doesn't work for me because then I tend to just stuff myself with protein/fat and drift into carbs.

This is all a works in progress. I do agree for you and Drj and probably Stardustshadow who are more athletic more protein may be required. For me, maybe not so much.
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:46 AM   #865
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Hi there Stardustshadow and congrats on the weight loss!! That is really good news. I too have wondered how you were doing.

I too worked my way down to a limit of 55g protein per day. I don't do percentages and couldn't tell you what mine are. I shot for 15g net carbs and the rest is made up in fat and the calories fall where they may but I am trying to be sure they never go below 1100. I was below a 1000 for a long time and it did nothing for my weight loss.

I am enjoying N.K. as it allows me 2 meals a day although I would love to tuck into a nice juicy 12 oz steak, there is plenty of other foods that are great so I don't concentrate on that aspect.

Drj, I am so sorry that you wasted you cooking efforts to find that others were eating crap right along with it. I have experienced that too. My adult children will visit home and scarf down my food right along with their doritos and what have you! Infuriating!!
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:21 AM   #866
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Hi Everyone!
Stardust, long time no see!

now to catch up reading...
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:31 AM   #867
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Random thought: I have struggled with my weight and body image since I was 9 years old, so pretty much my whole life. There have been times, fleeting times, usually not more than a year, in which I felt good in my body. I read sometimes women say they did not have a weight problem until they hit X age or X event in life. And I wonder what is worse? To have spent your whole life "normal" only to be blindsided by this soul-crushing fatness? Or to have never really known what "normal" is, and this constant, unrelenting, battle of the bulge is what is "normal"? I don't know what's worse. Maybe neither. They both suck.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:04 PM   #868
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shadow! Glad you have found a solution.

Speck, I see you are one of those who can't wait for the Thanksgiving weekend to end before decorating for Christmas.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:06 PM   #869
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Stardustshadow - it is good to hear from you! I remember you having great success a short time after I discovered the board. Congratulations on finding something that works now!

I find that my body changes over time so keeping an open mind is important. Things that didn't work before work now. It is mysterious how things work.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:21 PM   #870
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Random thought: I have struggled with my weight and body image since I was 9 years old, so pretty much my whole life. There have been times, fleeting times, usually not more than a year, in which I felt good in my body. I read sometimes women say they did not have a weight problem until they hit X age or X event in life. And I wonder what is worse? To have spent your whole life "normal" only to be blindsided by this soul-crushing fatness? Or to have never really known what "normal" is, and this constant, unrelenting, battle of the bulge is what is "normal"? I don't know what's worse. Maybe neither. They both suck.

I like random thoughts.

I can't remember a time when I didn't struggle. I remember being 6 and told I was too "chubby."

I think the closest to normal I have ever experienced is the time in 7th grade when I went on Weight Watchers with a friend (her idea and my mom pushed me to go with her). I went from 170 to 155 pounds at 5'10" Everything changed when I hit 8th grade at 155. I had my hair styled into a cute Dorothy Hamilton cut (it was the thing back then) and got contact lenses. It was like Ugly Betty transformed. I gained confidence.

Weight Watchers told me I needed to lose another 15 pounds and gave me a goal of 140. I never saw it. Anyway, I was tall enough that people couldn't see the 15 pounds and treated me like a normal person for the first time. THe kids didn't pick on me, and the few that tried I stood up to. The kids at school didn't recognize me. Our PE teacher couldn't find me when school started when I was sitting right in front of her. I know it sounds like it wasn't a lot of weight, but it was the borderline between where people think you are fat I guess.

It didn't last long. My mom sent me to live with my father and step mother, which was incredibly stressful. It was supposed to be for 6 weeks and turned into 1 3/4 years, and I gained weight until I hit 190 pounds. Sigh.

Fortunately, the confidence thing stuck and I learned how to keep kids from picking on me anyway.
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