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Old 10-03-2012, 08:42 AM   #691
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I also wish that one of the "experts" would chime in. It makes me really angry that Dr. Bernstein attributes the stall all to Hashimoto's hypothyroid. I wasn't tested for that, but understand it can be very difficult to diagnose. He offers no other solution to a stall other than cut the protein. But, he does not ever really say how low a person can go. I'm already eating way below his fomula for protein which put me at 70g and still not really losing .

Mostly I just don't think any of the experts really know what to do with people like us

I don't dislike Jenny Ruhl, though I don't always agree with her info. While stalling for 15 months is not what I want, I haven't fallen off the wagon and regained all of the weight I lost.

This week I've started eliminating protein from breakfast...which goes against Dr. Bernstein. I'm hoping this will allow me to eat a very little bit more at lunch and supper.
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Old 10-03-2012, 11:54 AM   #692
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Hi, Mobear. I agree that the experts really don't know what to advise the people here.

I believe that there is a blood test for the presence of antibodies that is diagnostic for Hashimoto's disease; it's on the list of tests that I'm supposed to have for the paleo-friendly nutritionist, since thyroid problems run in my family. Since it seems conceivable that thyroid issues might play a role for you, you might consider requesting that test--I don't think it's an expensive one, because I'm getting a long panel of tests for $350 total.

I'm not much of a breakfast person, so I find coffee and cream works for me, but I also am just pre-diabetic. I hope the change you are making works for you.
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Old 10-03-2012, 09:15 PM   #693
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If anyone wants to read more about the low carb, high fat approach (LCHF) from a doctor who writes about and advises it, there's a translation of parts of the blog by Swedish doctor Annika Dahlqvist's writings under the title "LCHF A Way of Life." I might read through it eventually, but I'm too swamped at work to do it right now (it's long). If anyone here reads it and finds anything useful, please post.

Also, I learned from Googling various LCHF websites (which are mostly in Scandinavian languages that I don't read) that Swedish doctor Andreas Eeenfeldt is publishing a book about the LCHF approach. Of course, it may be years before a translated version is available in English. He has also started a 17 part web series on "How to Lose Weight." Has anyone here read through all his web materials? He is also testing for nutritional ketosis (started recently) and says that it took him 3 full weeks to get into stable ketone level of 1.5-3 in the monrings. And his ketones went down when he drank diet Pepsi but made no other changes. I'll read through his blog when I've got time ... unless someone else wants to volunteer to do it ...
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:47 AM   #694
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Thought I'd share this mornings blood testing. b/g 114 b/k 0.4

I would love to see if/when I get into NK, the fasting b/g goes down.

If so, Cathy (and others), you may be able to test fb/g instead of buying ketone test strips.

Seems I am firmly gluco-neo adapted.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:57 AM   #695
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I will be testing after I begin my berberine (now ordered). I do think the 2 are connected - they have to be. I am so reluctant to buy the b.g. strips as they are so expensive here (100 for $75). I just spent a wad on the berberine.....good thing I don't have to answer to anyone about the state of my finances.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:45 AM   #696
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Cathy I can't remember if you have a blood glucose meter. If you don't you might want to check walmart for their own brand called relion meters. They aren't as expensive as most and the strips are much cheaper. I haven't been to your part of the world for a long time, but hope you have a walmart nearby.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:48 AM   #697
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I'm grasping at straws (a very old expression ) but I'd like your thoughts on this.

I have recently been eating a lot of shiratake noodles and rice. It's not unusual for me to eat the entire 3oz bag of miracle rice at one meal. Anyone think this would cause me not to lose weight?? I used to divide the one bag of rice into about 6 servings, but lately have really enjoyed eating the whole darn thing!
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:34 PM   #698
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I look into the berberine and did you see where they say not to take it more than 2 months and then to take a break? I haven't found a WHY for that recommendation. The closest I have found for a reason is because it slows down the passage of food through the small intestines.

I can't see where miracle rice would have any effect as it is pure fiber.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:18 AM   #699
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Woke up with a fasting bg of 60. This is kind of scary since I took less regular insulin at each meal and 1u less Lantus. This week I've been eating just fat at breakfast and splitting the protein between lunch and dinner. So, in what could be an extremely bold and stupid move, I did not take any regular insulin at breakfast. Yesterday I only took 3u so have no idea how this will work out.

Thanks for the feedback drjlocarb. I didn't really think that the miracle rice would stall me, but as I said I'm grasping at straws wondering why this isn't working.

I am actually very concerned about the amount of protein I am eating. I am way way below the 70g Bernstein recommends, the 66g Eades said, the 60g of Phinney & Volek and even the 51g of Optimal. This week I have been eating in the 43-50g range. I am really thrilled with lowering my insulin dosage, but am becoming concerned that I will be severely impacting my LBM (what there is of it)!
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:28 AM   #700
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Maureen, thank you for the tip on the b.g. meter. I do already have one - just ran out of strips. Did you test just the once with your machine this morning to get the 60#? I found that my machine fluctuates from minute to minute sometimes......

It seems to me that the low protein intake is ok and I wouldn't worry about losing lean body mass if you are not losing weight. If you should begin to lose weight, unless you start to feel fatigued or have other symptoms, I wouldn't worry too much.

Drj, I did not know about that recommendation. I will have to do a bit more research. The encouraging info that I found was that it was effective at reversing insulin resistance which seems to be a problem that may be standing in my path. I would go the metformin route but it is a prescription drug and my doctor is not willing to prescribe it to me.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:51 AM   #701
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It was on Active low carber forums, under Dr Bernstein,berberine hydrochloride.

I just did a quick peek again and it was 2-3 months with a break of 30%. 3 months on one month off or 2 months on 2 weeks off. He also said if there was no results in 4-5 days, there would be no results. They were also T2's.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:58 AM   #702
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Thank you - I will check it out. I still need to read Bernsteins' book. I am not a diabetic but feel certain that if I had not changed my eating when I did, I would most certainly be one by now. My Mother died from type 2 complications and I have the same body type as she did. I am worried that I will develop it despite my efforts.....
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:37 AM   #703
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I'm not sure if you're interested - I'm just checking in on my Dr. Eades Thin So Fast plan. I read to the part of the book where he says his plan doesn't fail and insists if it doesn't work the patient is not following it. I think true in this case because the calorie count is so low.

I finally had my first full day of his plan. I had 4 shakes, using whey powder, and one small meal last night. No hunger for the first time in two weeks. I am eating no more than 100 calories at a time now, except for the small meal last night.

I didn't make his shakes with the powdered skim milk + tablespoon of protein powder + potassium + supplements. I know he issued a later book (the plan for the Middle Aged Middle, I can't remember what it was called) recommending the whey powder, and the whey I'm using has potassium and some supplements mixed in, so I think it is good enough. I noticed the skim milk has more carbs so I shifted the carbs over to eating a little fruit last night.

According to his book, this level of low calories and lower carbs causes deep ketosis and knocks out appetite. I had not thought about how too much protein prevents ketosis until reading this thread. He followed something along the lines of 800 calories. Yes, I am not kidding, this is Dr. Eades of Protein Power. Interesting to readhow he actually lost his weight. Anyway, being female, I think I have to undercut this. I know how it sounds, but....

I consider myself in an urgent situation at this point. I started having hip pain that appeared suddenly had has not gone away over the past two weeks, even after stopping my exercise and just resting. I think something about my going on vacation triggered it - standing/walking all day for a couple of days and eating bad food perhaps. I really, really, have to take this weight off. I looked up the symptoms and it all points to inflammation. I can't live like this. I have to be able to walk. It is very upsetting.

My stats are becoming more honest now: 212 this morning.

Note: I'm not following his Middle Age Middle book. I tried that before and was too hungry (200 calorie whey shakes in my case - the number of scoops he recommends depends on your weight). I couldn't take the hunver. I note the difference is he recommends fewer calories in the older Thin So Fast book. I think the lower calorie level causes deep ketosis and knocks out the appetite.
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:16 AM   #704
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Just checking in. Over the last couple of weeks weight has remained the same. Maybe the Swedish doctor svenskamae quoted is correct and the transition to NK can take as long as 6 months

On a bright note I've eliminated protein at breakfast and also my breakfast insulin injection . I've also reduced the insulin at lunch and supper and my long acting insulin at night. So, after years and years of taking 4 shots a day I am down to 3.

Cathy have you started your new supplement? I really hope it helps you . Drjlocarb have your BK gone up...I seem to remember you were at .4 (just over the line for NK).

KeyTones...how is your hip?? I know many people do not believe in taking medication, but have you thought of something like ibuprofen (advil) on a regular basis for a week? Also I found after my knee surgery that icing the area really helped. I hope you are getting some relieve and your Eades diet is working.

I'm also lurking on the NK thread, but have to admit I read the posts and sometimes just want to scream....why isn't this working for all of us????
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:35 AM   #705
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I'm sorry. What did you say?

I was busy SCREAMING!
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:38 AM   #706
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drjlocarb I'm sorry. What did you say?

I was busy SCREAMING!
&

Still waiting for my Glycosolve to arrive and hoping it doesn't get hung up in the delivery which is a distinct possibility.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:13 AM   #707
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Mobear,

Thank you. I take a little ibuprofen but it tears up my stomach. I will just take it once a day after I've eaten maybe enough food to buffer it. The hips are still a problem. When I've eaten down my stock of food, I might try my diet with all anti-inflammatory food.

I've had a few good days with the Eades plan. I forgot to bring in protein powder and tried to drink skim milk yesterday. My GOSH I nearly fainted from hunger. His plan says to add protein powder to the skim milk, so I know this is not the plan.

I also was out with friends all weekend, so I ate enough not to be crabby. I am having a difficult time with fatigue. True, it knocks out your hunger, but fatigue is a pretty bad problem and I end up having to eat something when I'm out on my feet alll day.

I will keep taking cuts at it and do it as many days as I can.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:11 PM   #708
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KeyTones, sorry to hear you can't take much ibuprofen....stomach distress isn't something you need to add to your current situation.

I was reading in the Main Lobby this morning and came across this in post #24 of a thread about chia seeds:

"I use chia seeds in my yogurt for their anti-inflammatory properties. They quickly help pain in the joints. Swelling is greatly reduced as well. I do not take any kind of meds for pain anymore."

Personally I have to be careful with this because using the seeds can give a lot of digestive issues , if you know what I mean. But, I do take about 2T of seeds and mix in a little more than 1/2 c of water and allow it to gel in the fridge over night. Then, I use about 1tsp every morning in my coffee. Some people use the gel in shakes or yogurt. I no longer take much medication for joint aches but can't really say how much is from using the chia seeds, losing weight, etc.

Just something for you to think about along with the anti-inflammatory diet.

Hope you are feeling a little better

On a personal note I was definitely screaming last night after checking the main lobby before bed. I did something so stupid that if I could kick my own butt I would do it about a half dozen times. My penance today is fat, fat, more fat, and 1 oz of ham and 1 oz of beef. Tonight might be fat bombs, Larry's fridge fudge and more fat....maybe a buttersicle!

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Old 10-10-2012, 02:04 PM   #709
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On nutritional ketosis not working (yet) for several people here, this is all that I can suggest:
1) Give it more time AND
2) Cut your net carbs further. The Swedish book I've recommended keeps net carbs to 12/day or less for people who have a lot of trouble losing weight. The author describes this as using a bit of green for garnish, but basically eating fat and a limited amount of protein
3) Try increasing the amount of fat that comes from coconut oil, since that in itself seems to boost ketosis levels (but not guarantee burning body fat, sadly)
4) Drop any consumption of artificial sweeteners, Stevia, or anything whatsoever that your body/gut interprets as a sweetener. The Scandinavian doctor who does a blog as "the diet doctor" reports his blood ketone level dropping in half after drinking Diet Pepsi, even though his blood sugar didn't spike after drinking it.
5) Increase exercise--maybe high intensity short intervals or resistence, rather than long sessions of steady cardio
6) Try an elimination diet to pinpoint food sensitivities
7) Increase sleep
8) Increase the percentage of fat and reduce the protein intake still further

Those are absolutely all the suggestions I've read anywhere for getting nutritional ketosis to work and get into the 0.5-3.0 range. Of course, maybe all the stalled folks here have done or are doing all these things already, but I thought I'd list them in case anyone could add something to her approach.

Sorry if this doesn't add anything and is all stuff you've all tried.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:49 PM   #710
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Thanks for your post svenskamae. Some of these things I've already tried and some I won't try at all. I just need to accept that for now nothing is helping the weight loss. Ironically I always thought that if I could just reduce the amount of insulin I take, the weight loss would follow. My blood glucose is still improving and I am taking less insulin....but no weight loss yet
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:51 PM   #711
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Reducing insulin is important! We are trying, to lose weight and that is important, but your diabetic improvement IS the best.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:01 PM   #712
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Reducing insulin is important! We are trying, to lose weight and that is important, but your diabetic improvement IS the best.
Couldn't agree more!
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Old 10-11-2012, 01:42 PM   #713
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FYI, Jimmy Moore's n=1 latest post on nutritional ketosis has a link to an hour-long interview he did with a naturopathic doctor, where he talks about his experience doing nutritional ketosis. He reports eating around 75 grams protein, around 20 grams carbs, and the rest fat, with his fat percentage at 80-85 percent. He was eating around 70 percent fat before, and was getting a reading of 0.3 on the ketosis blood meter at that level. He reports eating a big breakfast of eggs, sausage, sour cream, and avocado, not needing to eat again for up to 12 hours, and then eating another high fat meal, such as sausage and avocado, as typical for him. He's lost 50 pounds and reports feeling great. See the interview for more details.
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:03 PM   #714
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KeyTones, sorry to hear you can't take much ibuprofen....stomach distress isn't something you need to add to your current situation.

I was reading in the Main Lobby this morning and came across this in post #24 of a thread about chia seeds:

"I use chia seeds in my yogurt for their anti-inflammatory properties. They quickly help pain in the joints. Swelling is greatly reduced as well. I do not take any kind of meds for pain anymore."

Personally I have to be careful with this because using the seeds can give a lot of digestive issues , if you know what I mean. But, I do take about 2T of seeds and mix in a little more than 1/2 c of water and allow it to gel in the fridge over night. Then, I use about 1tsp every morning in my coffee. Some people use the gel in shakes or yogurt. I no longer take much medication for joint aches but can't really say how much is from using the chia seeds, losing weight, etc.

Just something for you to think about along with the anti-inflammatory diet.

Hope you are feeling a little better

On a personal note I was definitely screaming last night after checking the main lobby before bed. I did something so stupid that if I could kick my own butt I would do it about a half dozen times. My penance today is fat, fat, more fat, and 1 oz of ham and 1 oz of beef. Tonight might be fat bombs, Larry's fridge fudge and more fat....maybe a buttersicle!
Thank you. I will look into this.

I've had them before and they don't upset my stomach. Perhaps this will help.

I have been reading about anti inflamatory foods. I think need to change up my diet. I need to do something.
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:19 AM   #715
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Just wanted to check in and let everyone know I haven't fallen off the face of the planet. I'm working through my dismal outlook and formulating a plan.
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:33 AM   #716
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Thank you. I will look into this.

I've had them before and they don't upset my stomach. Perhaps this will help.

I have been reading about anti inflamatory foods. I think need to change up my diet. I need to do something.
You might consider upping your intake of Omega 3 fats as another anti-inflammatory measure, Key Tones. That could be in the form of cod liver oil or krill oil capsules or just working more fish into your diet. Flax oil has omega 3s, too, but I've read that the amount we absorb from flax is way less than what we can absorb from fish-related sources.

I hope you find something that helps.

I've done just a little web surfing on the topic of anti-inflammatory foods, and the information seems highly contradictory. I've read that a low carb diet is anti inflammatory and then see that various website are pushing whole grains and polyunsaturated fats (oh boy, let's have some healthy soybean oil!) and fruits as the basis for supposedly anti-inflammatory diets. What have you read that you trust?

A last point--a friend who has problems with joint pain is avoiding veggies in the nightshade family, like tomatoes and eggplant. Have you given that a try or some consideration?

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Old 10-12-2012, 01:34 AM   #717
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Just wanted to check in and let everyone know I haven't fallen off the face of the planet. I'm working through my dismal outlook and formulating a plan.
Hi, Speck. You look great in that hat. Good luck with your plan.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:40 AM   #718
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Just wanted to check in and let everyone know I haven't fallen off the face of the planet. I'm working through my dismal outlook and formulating a plan.


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Old 10-12-2012, 08:47 AM   #719
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Just wanted to check in and let everyone know I haven't fallen off the face of the planet. I'm working through my dismal outlook and formulating a plan.
Hi Speck. Glad to see you are still about if not posting much. I am not sure how to respond to your post - are you talking dismal weight situation or life in general? Either way, plans are good.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:56 AM   #720
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Originally Posted by svenskamae View Post
You might consider upping your intake of Omega 3 fats as another anti-inflammatory measure, Key Tones. That could be in the form of cod liver oil or krill oil capsules or just working more fish into your diet. Flax oil has omega 3s, too, but I've read that the amount we absorb from flax is way less than what we can absorb from fish-related sources.

I hope you find something that helps.

I've done just a little web surfing on the topic of anti-inflammatory foods, and the information seems highly contradictory. I've read that a low carb diet is anti inflammatory and then see that various website are pushing whole grains and polyunsaturated fats (oh boy, let's have some healthy soybean oil!) and fruits as the basis for supposedly anti-inflammatory diets. What have you read that you trust?

A last point--a friend who has problems with joint pain is avoiding veggies in the nightshade family, like tomatoes and eggplant. Have you given that a try or some consideration?

Thank you for your post. I already take krill oil; Dr. Eades has written some great articles about this on his blog. I'm not sure chia seeds can improve on this but I will try it.

I've read up on anti-inflammatory diets in the past. My focus is going to be on wild-caught salmon and other seafood. I stumbled on the paleo diet in 2005 when pretty much no one heard of it by putting "omega 3" into amazon and ordering the top book results.

I am going to try just meat and vegetables (to be researched) and low carb fruit. No night shades (I have heard of this; I threw out my potatoes the other day), no sweet potatoes. I'm not going to touch sweet potatoes either after reading what happened to Chris Masterjohn when he tried it (joint pain from oxalates I think, would have to google). I am a believer in at least 50 carbs per day. Why make your liver work so hard. Maybe I will have to drop this.

I think I have gone down a gopher hole with my low fat, low carb diet which may have triggered this pain. I would suspect uric acid/gout, but I have more than one joint in pain (knee, shoulder, both hips, left hip worse), but still suspect high uric acid. This is too bad because I lost weight eating low fat protein.

I am still leary of high fat diet. Last time I tried it I put on several pounds and they were like concrete to get back off. I realized that weight gain on high fat is REAL and not bloating. I might try it again but would have to really, seriously watch calories. Still mulling it over. I haven't looked at Jimmy's most recent post yet.

I hate to say it, but I think I will have to give up dairy to see if it helps. Ugh.
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