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Old 09-18-2012, 10:04 AM   #661
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Sorry to hear that your weight bounced up again, Maureen. I hope it's water weight and goes away by your official weigh-in day; try to drink lots of water in the interim, to shed any extra water weight.

Although I have a meter, I haven't been testing for nutritional ketosis, but I'm aiming to keep my protein under 55 grams/day (and more in the range of 45-50 if I can), and getting 70-80 percent of calories from fat. I don't think that I can do any better than that, with or without testing with a meter, so I'm just aiming for high fat at around 1200-1300 calories/day. I am finding limiting the protein MUCH easier now than it was a couple of weeks ago, so you may find it easier eventually, Keytones.

I'm cooking dishes that are very high in butter and cream now. Over the weekend, I made liver pate (lots of butter), creamed spinach (lots of cream), shrimp and cream cheese dip, chicken tiki masala (more cream), and chard sauteed with bacon. Then I carefully measure out small portions, and stay pretty full eating like that, even though the volume of my food is low. I'm seeing some changes in my clothes (getting a bit looser), so this seems to be working for me. I broke down and ordered a scale, which should arrive sometime this week, so I guess I'll be using scale numbers to track progress, but will try to not let it mess with my moods too much.

Today I had one egg fried in butter and a small serving of creamed spinach, made with HWC, for breakfast, and I feel stuffed, even though it didn't look like much food on my plate.
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Old 09-19-2012, 08:28 AM   #662
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I ordered a scale, since I wasn't trusting the change I was seeing in how my clothes fit, and I learned last night (when it arrived) that I've lost 5 pounds between August 28 and now.

For me, that's a huge improvement over the 4 pounds lost in 3 months I experienced between May 28 and August 28. So this nutritional ketosis approach is definitely something I'll be sticking to (net carbs under 30, protein 50 or less/day, calories around 1200) unless/until that stops working for me, too. I hope others here experience some success with this approach.
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Old 09-19-2012, 12:24 PM   #663
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Svenskamae I am delighted for your success . I hope you have found a way that continues to work for you - and the other posters who are having success with NK .
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Old 09-19-2012, 01:35 PM   #664
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Great news svenskamae
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:56 AM   #665
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Well, no happy news from me today. I'm up 1.8 lbs. One of the big issues I have is trying to eat lunch with friends. I ordered a 2 egg omelet with bacon - and only felt I should eat 1/3 of it!! Yesterday I had a ceasar salad with no added protein and no croutons - just a pile of lettuce and some shaved parm cheese with ceasar dressing. Gave the roll served with the salad away.

Having lunch with friends is a big part of my social life and this is proving very difficult. The worst thing is this week I tried to keep my calories to 1400 or so. Stayed out of the 1500 - 1600s I was in before my last weigh in (when I lost weight).

Up the fat, lower the fat, up the calories, lower the calories....oh he**..I don't know!
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Old 09-20-2012, 07:59 AM   #666
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Maureen, I feel your pain. It sucks to be in this endless battle that seems to go no where. So not to sound trite or 'cheerleadery' but it may be a question of time and adhering to your plan. You did see some progress and that could be the beginning of a slow 'recovery'?
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:37 PM   #667
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I'm sorry that the scale is not cooperating, Maureen. I second Clackley's suggestion that you try to give the nutritional ketosis approach some time. I know that I've been trying to cut down my protein and raise my fat percentage since at least early July, and it's only in the last couple of weeks that my body has started to burn fat at a good rate and I started to feel much less hunger on these itty-bitty high fat meals. It really does seem like "retraining" our system to burn fat takes some of us a fairly long time.

The two other things that I am doing, which may or may not be helping, is a bit of mild liver detoxing and upping my consumption of Omega 3 fats (basically fish).

One of the hypothesized causes of resistent weight loss is a liver that isn't fully functioning ("your tired, toxic liver," as Louise Gittelman puts it), so I've been taking milkthistle capsules with water twice a day, drinking lots of water, and sometimes drinking hot water with a splash of lemon juice in it in the morning. Maybe this helps a bit, and I don't think it can hurt.

Phinney and Volek HYPOTHESIZE that a cause of insulin resistence can be that cell walls aren't as sensitive as they should be, due to inadequate production of the ecosonoids(sp?) made by Omega 3 fats. So I upped my Omega 3 fat consumption, and eat a little fish almost every day--a little bottle of anchovies in olive oil thrown into a salad, a tablespoon of salmon roe plus sour cream as a sidedish, put 3 oz of salmon into a salad as my main course at dinner, made cream cheese shrimp dip, etc. I haven't much protein to play with, but a lot of what I do eat that's protein is fish, these days. (Simultaneously, I am avoiding vegetable oils [other than some olive oil] like they were poison.) Again, it can't hurt; almost everyone today gets too few Omega 3 fats, and I'm from an ethnic group (Swedish) where people aren't good at doing the conversion, because they historically lived off fish and so had lots of Omega 3 fats in their diet. Maybe this helps a bit?

But my guess is that I'm lucky enough to be getting a payoff from nutritional ketosis, due to my body finally deciding that it's not getting much except fat, so dammit, I'll burn that! I hope that logic eventually works for others here--but I can testify that the payoff can take a while to show up.
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:44 PM   #668
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Originally Posted by Mobear View Post
Well, no happy news from me today. I'm up 1.8 lbs. One of the big issues I have is trying to eat lunch with friends. I ordered a 2 egg omelet with bacon - and only felt I should eat 1/3 of it!! Yesterday I had a ceasar salad with no added protein and no croutons - just a pile of lettuce and some shaved parm cheese with ceasar dressing. Gave the roll served with the salad away.

Having lunch with friends is a big part of my social life and this is proving very difficult. The worst thing is this week I tried to keep my calories to 1400 or so. Stayed out of the 1500 - 1600s I was in before my last weigh in (when I lost weight).

Up the fat, lower the fat, up the calories, lower the calories....oh he**..I don't know!
These weird little high fat meals that I eat don't translate at all well into restaurant meals, where the portions are big and the lowcarb items have LOTS of protein. I'm lucky that I just pack my own lunch and eat it at my desk, but tonight and tomorrow night I'm having dinner with friends in a restaurant. I'm guessing that I'll end up with a protein-heavy dish, so I'm eating minimal protein before dinner. (So far today, 2 strips bacon and some chopped fresh veggies in sour cream.)

If I had lunch out often, I think I'd stick to sidedish salads with extra dressing on the side, and maybe coffee or hot tea with cream? It's a drag to feel that you can't eat most of the lowcarb entree you order, so maybe stick with just a sidedish high in fat, like an appetizer or a sidesalad with dressing ...
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:49 PM   #669
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Thanks for the encouraging words Cathy and Miriam. I just felt like dog doodoo this morning after I weighed. I do take fish oil (2caps in a.m.) so I could add a Krill Oil in the afternoon.

I do really think that as a diabetic of long standing (30yrs) I am really broken. Maybe this won't ever result in much weight loss for me . Hanging on to the one bright note in this is that my blood sugar continues to improve...is that amazing or what??
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:57 PM   #670
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Thanks for the encouraging words Cathy and Miriam. I just felt like dog doodoo this morning after I weighed. I do take fish oil (2caps in a.m.) so I could add a Krill Oil in the afternoon.

I do really think that as a diabetic of long standing (30yrs) I am really broken. Maybe this won't ever result in much weight loss for me . Hanging on to the one bright note in this is that my blood sugar continues to improve...is that amazing or what??
I'm happy that you are getting a health benefit from this, Maureen, in the form of better blood sugar results. Maybe it will take a very long time, but I hope that eventually you will experience some weightloss, too.

Has your doctor noticed the improvement in your blood sugars and adjusted your medication levels? If the improvement holds and continues, is there a chance that you can control you diabetes with just diet?
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:22 PM   #671
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Svenskamae my doctor has noticed and is happy with the blood sugar improvement. He is not happy with my cholesterol - total is 340is and LDL is 248...tested by VAP. I quit taking my statin in July 2011 after many years on it....just couldn't stand the side effects any longer.

Actually, I have gradually reduced my insulin more or less on my own. I test 4 times a day and am guided by the readings. When I started in 9/2010 I took 21u of Regular insulin for each meal plus 45u of Lantus for my long acting insulin. I am now taking 4u of Regular for each meal plus 37u of Lantus. I also take 1500mg of metformin extended release. I highly doubt that I will ever get completely off insulin, but the less I take the better for me as long as blood sugar is under control. My latests A1c is 5.8 and I'm hoping the next one will be slightly lower.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:11 AM   #672
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sorry to be MIA... busy busy.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:34 AM   #673
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Svenskamae my doctor has noticed and is happy with the blood sugar improvement. He is not happy with my cholesterol - total is 340is and LDL is 248...tested by VAP. I quit taking my statin in July 2011 after many years on it....just couldn't stand the side effects any longer.

Actually, I have gradually reduced my insulin more or less on my own. I test 4 times a day and am guided by the readings. When I started in 9/2010 I took 21u of Regular insulin for each meal plus 45u of Lantus for my long acting insulin. I am now taking 4u of Regular for each meal plus 37u of Lantus. I also take 1500mg of metformin extended release. I highly doubt that I will ever get completely off insulin, but the less I take the better for me as long as blood sugar is under control. My latests A1c is 5.8 and I'm hoping the next one will be slightly lower.
You've done a phenomenal job of controlling your blood sugar levels, Maureen, and that's a huge accomplishment!

It's possible that both your high cholesterol readings and your resistence to weight loss may be related to less than optimal thyroid functioning. Did you say that you were considering getting the full panel of thyroid tests? Have you tried taking your temperature first thing in the morning, and checking to see if it is low (say, 96.X or 97.X)? That can be a symptom of hypothyroidism, according to the Broda Barnes foundation.
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Old 09-23-2012, 08:53 AM   #674
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It seems pretty clear that the NK route is not helping and in fact may be hindering my stall. I am now almost 10lbs. above my low. Yes, 9.5lbs. of regained weight.

So apart from needing to complain, I was wondering if any one has tried berbarine or glycosolve.

Please pardon the lack of a question mark where it should be as my keyboard is acting up and giving me an accent as in French.

Jimmy Moore mentioned very briefly that he began taking this sometime after starting his N=1 current nk experiment and I wonder if it has can be important.

I can`t seem to get it here in Canada (must be controlled for some reason) but there are similar products. I just hate to spend more money on something that is yet another pie in the sky.......
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:49 AM   #675
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How disappointing Cathy. No, I don't know anything about those.
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Old 09-23-2012, 12:53 PM   #676
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Sorry to hear about the stall Cathy . I have never used either of those products. Years ago, before I started on insulin, I did try a couple of different formulations of chromium, but never thought it did anything for me.

I'm wondering if there is a herbal version of metformin? Metformin is supposed to increase insulin sensitivity and stop the liver from "dumping" insulin inappropriately (my endo told me that a long time ago).

If you think this might be insulin, I would suggest evening out the protein and trying to eat at least 2x as much fat as protein and not loading one meal with most of your protein. You are probably already doing this but thought I would mention this as Dr. Bernstein insists it is not good to - for instance- eat most carbs at one meal.
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Old 09-23-2012, 01:21 PM   #677
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Sorry to hear that NK isn't helping you, Cathy.

I don't know anything about berberine or glycosolve. Wikipedia says "berberine has been shown to lower elevanted blood glucose as effectively as metformin." Have you ever tried taking metformin/glucophage, as a prescription medicine? That was the next thing that I was going to try, before NK started working for me. Since metformin is a prescription medicine, you might get it covered under your insurance plan, and some people on this board, like Maureen, have experience taking it. It sounds like metformin causes fewer digestive side-effects for people eating lowcarb, and that the slow-release formula minimizes side effects.

If you want a list of other supplements that are supposed to help with insulin resistence, I can post the ones that I've picked up. You may have tried all or most of them already, of course, and you may want to try altering just 1 variable (1 supplement) at a time. Let me know if you want the list.

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Old 09-23-2012, 04:51 PM   #678
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Cathy, that is NOT good news. I am SO sorry.

I know nothing about either med.
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Old 09-23-2012, 05:07 PM   #679
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So, I had a bad day. I ate a breaded chicken sandwich on a regular bun. I just fixed it and ate it. My son loves them and that's what he wanted for lunch, and I just made one for myself. Then, later, I got the notion that since I'd already blown it for today, I wanted pasta with homemade alfredo sauce. I was boiling the noodles. I came to my senses, and dumped them down the garbage disposal. I wasn't even hungry. I reminded myself that the chicken was only 13 net carbs and the bun was 20 net carbs, and considering that was all I had eating today except cream in my coffee, I had not truly blown anything and what I was about to do was nihilistic and stupid.
I am still struggling to get my head on straight. On balance, I'm doing OK, but some of this "what's the point" thinking creeps in too regularly. Logically, I do *know* what the points are, but still struggle nonetheless.
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Old 09-23-2012, 06:13 PM   #680
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Sorry about your hard day, Speck. Good for you for putting the noodles down the drain. It certainly makes sense that you can fall into thinking "what's the point" when you aren't losing and you aren't maintaining near your goal.

About 7 years ago, I made a huge effort to lose weight--exercising for hours every day, working with a personal trainer, a nutritionist, and doctor open to alternative medicine--all paid for out of pocket, and lost NOTHING but money for months. (I wasn't doing lowcarb, however.) After that, I just gave up, apart from avoiding sweets, and gained the 40 pounds I've lost over the past 8 months. From the perspective of my experience, there is a point in terms of not gaining more, but it sure was hard to feel that after trying so hard and not succeeding.
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Old 09-24-2012, 01:10 AM   #681
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I completely understand your "what's the point" thinking Speck. In 1995 I lost 25 or so pounds with PP. I was not very close to goal when I stalled. After a little while my brain started the "what's the point" thinking. I gained all the weight back plus more.

I made a little progress in 2010 with reducing carbs and lost a few pounds. I had knee surgery and DH had to provide food. He started bringing home noodly stuff, breaded stuff, and fruit. My brain did the "what's the point" thing and my efforts went out the damn window.

In Sept 2010 I started with Dr. Bernstein's plan. I lost 42 lbs and have been stalled since July 2011. The NK thing has lowered my bouncing weight, but I haven't made any significant strides. But, I am hanging on - for dear life - to Dr. Bernstein's plan adjusted for NK. I DO NOT want to weigh 235+ pounds again. That, in fact, is the point....I DO NOT want to gain - again.

I'm glad you were able to dump the pasta because that is a victory for not regaining what you have lost.
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:15 AM   #682
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Cathy, I am so sorry to hear. (((HUGS)))

Speck - good job on dumping the pasta! Hang in there.

I didn't make progress over the weekend on Eades book Thin So Fast. I was busy with the activities surrounding my daughter starting college (move in day, freshman convocation, etc.). I did, however, find a jug of some whey powder in my pantry, nearing expiration, which I carried to work. So, today is officially day 1.

I will make some logical modifications, like adding egg yolks to some shakes for nutrition, per my Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet training. If I decide I need carbs, they will be potatoes, also per Kwasniewski. I need to be sure I dont run into electrolyte imbalance (need salt and potassium Nu Salt). I know I have read about heart problems and kidney problems with ketogenic diets (I think kidneyproblems were caused by water restriction).

I will go back and read his warnings as well to avoid the pitfalls. He also says to only follow it for 8 weeks because the extreme ketogenic diet issues happened within this time frame. this is just a safety measure; his diet is not so extreme with the safety features he recommends.
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:30 AM   #683
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Cathy, do you think the problem was increased carbs or increased calories?
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:34 PM   #684
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Really hard to say what the problem is because my carbs are pretty much unchanged and calories may be a bit higher on average but more even day to day. I think I am going to add in berberine supp. to my nk and see if that matters.

In another thread someone who has been stalled for a long time (Cleome) said she has begun to lose on metformin. Berberine is suppose to be similiar.....
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:58 AM   #685
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Cathy, did you at some point check your fasting blood glucose? I can't remember and I am NOT going back through to search.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:06 AM   #686
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Yes I did and was getting consistently higher b.g. first thing in the morning. I did not really check much later in the day. It was stressing me out so I stopped (and ran out of strips). I will have my A1c checked (for the first time ever soon) and see where I am at with that... I am still looking for berberine or glycosolve but not really having much luck....
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:55 AM   #687
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Is it not available in Canada? I see it all over the internet here.

Can I send you some? How close are you to Saranac Lake , NY?
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Old 10-02-2012, 11:12 AM   #688
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I can find products that claim to have berberine in them but are always in conjunction with other supplements. I don't want that.I have also read that products that come from China may be inferior and that is hard to determine unless the manufacturer states otherwise (Glycosolve). I can order Glycosolve from the States but of course would prefer to find it here - cheaper and more convenient. Thank you for your very generous offer but I will just order it on line.
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Old 10-02-2012, 08:49 PM   #689
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I would do ANY.....THING to help US find out what was going on.

Does anyone else think Gary, Jeff, and Stephen are "spying" on us to find out WHAT is going on with their "solution" to weight loss??

I know our link is on Jimmy's blog. WHY aren't they "showing up" to help??

I don't care if they don't want to say WHO they are, but please HELP US!!

I have theories, but I don't know IF I am going in the right direction.

Has anyone looked at the views for this thread?

If you all are out there, PLEASE help us.
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:11 AM   #690
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I hear you Drj! I think nobody knows what is going on.

Interesting that our link is on Jimmy's thread..... that may explain the volume of traffic.

I think if anyone has an explanation so far, it is you and it is just going to take time. Lots of time it seems......

But it would be really incredible if someone with some insights like the people you mention would give some words of help and direction.......

On another topic I listened to a recent 'ask the experts' with Jenny Rul and I swear I ended up wanting to throw my ipod!!! The advice from that so called expert infuriates me. If either one of any of us had asked what the deal is - she would inevitably adviced to up your carbs, quit lying about how much you eat and be happy that you lost what you did and don't expect to get more weight loss.
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