∞ Stalled But Determined Challenge! ∞

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by Mobear

It has been a strange day. I looked forward to it quite a bit as it was an extra day off for DH. He has, however, been in a funk all day - playing video game, watching tv, sleeping and eating.

Since he wasn't really interested in talking or anything I could share in, I decided to make 2 cheesecakes. One I made using Drjlocarbs recipe for a savory cheesecake and one I made sweet. It kept me out of his way, and in the kitchen - but not eating!

I'm continuing to eat 52-55g of protein. Just read through the Main Lobby posts today and am still befuddled by the comments that "their must be a calorie deficit". For a year I counted calories and stayed between 900-1250 a day. I kept the carbs below 30 and sometimes much lower than that. During that time I started using lower fat cheeses, light salad dressing, light this, light that. All my weight did was bounce up and down in about a 5lb range.

Now, I'm limiting protein and carbs and eating 120-130g of fat a day. Naturally, my calories are considerably higher - 1300-1500. My weekly bounce has about disappeared and I have been very close to my "stall" weight for 2 weeks. I haven't gone below my stall weight, but I am still hopeful that will happen. I don't think I can up my fat grams anymore without really eating a lot of calories and that is just plain scary

Anyway, I don't see a deficit here...weight has stabilized at higher calories - not lower

Maureen, I'm convinced that the whole "calorie deficit" argument only works if one's hormones are all working properly, and that any of them being off can stall or stop weight loss. Supposedly just about everyone has a resting metabolic rate of over 1000 calories a day, and yet I've had months and months of eating less than that and not losing weight; I've upped calories sometimes in the past and not gained weight, or gained way less weight than the change in calories would predict. On the other hand, knowing that my metabolism/hormones aren't very friendly to weightloss, I too find upping calories a really scary prospect. I am glad that upping calories some to be in ketosis hasn't caused you to gain, and I think we have to trust our own experience more than anything else.

I finally made myself figure out how to do the nutritional ketosis testing, but wasted 3 strips without getting a valid reading, so I need to try another day. Do you replace the needles that go into the lancet every time you test blood glucose or ketones, or can I just clean it with alcohol and reuse?

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by Mobear

Thanks svenskamae! I actually have the info already...I've just been waiting for I don't know what to go and have the test done. Even with the new lab ranges for TSH, mine was in the middle at 1.68. The problem seemed to be between the T3 and free T3 conversion. RT3 was not tested so I have no idea where that was. I was told in the thyroid forum (by one poster) that there is no such problem as conversion and that is just an internet myth. Hmm, I don't think so! Anyway I've been eating more kelp, liver, and adding sea weed seasoning to things to try and bolster my thyroid without resorting to supplements.

Anyway today wasn't great. My DH surprised me by taking me out for Chinese - which I love of course. I tried my best but think even estimating my food for my online tracker is going to be tough.

Have a great weekend and enjoy your reading

Maureen, I liked "Practical Paleo" in terms of the general discussion--especially about the digestive process/digestive health and some of her recipes--but I didn't notice a lot of variation in terms of what the author recommends for insulin resistence versus thyroid health versus fat loss, and so on. I think the general recommendations for following a paleo diet are appealing, but there seemed to be relative little change from one set of recommendations to the next.

One thing that I do recall, from the section about thyroid health, is the point about being cautious about consuming goiterogenic vegetables and to eat them cooked rather than raw. I remember that broccoli, cabbage, and cauliflower were in the list, and I'll post a full list when I remember to bring in my notes (sometime this week).

[Mobear]

Svenskamae I have to confess that I only change my lancets about once a week. I recently had a nurse tell me that this practice could affect my blood sugar reading, but I have never read that anyplace. I also don't clean the lancet after each use and have never had an infection from that .

I will say that with the price of the blood ketone strips being so very high and somewhat difficult to get, you probably should just change the lancet to get the best most accurate test you can. The lancet device I use is a b-d with an adjustable piercing depth. I believe it can be set at 1 for a very light prick to 6 for people who need a deeper penetration. My lancets are still the 30gauge, but I know they have a 33gauge out and that will be even finer than mine. I wash my hands with soap and water, rinse well, and dry. I do not use alcohol. I never use the finger tips (pads/fingerprint area) and never my thumb or index finger.

I cheated yesterday and hopped on the scale. I was 194 - up from 192.2 last week. Tomorrow is my "official" weigh day so maybe it will come back down. I confess I was disappointed

It is nice to have you back. Hope you are able to get an accurate NK test so you know where you stand.

[svenskamae]

Thanks for the advice about lancets, Maureen. Some others on the nutritional ketosis also not changing lancets every time they test, and the Nova Max meter is sent with so few lancets that I rather expect the company assumes people will reuse them, even though the tedious instructions say not to. I will try testing again this weekend.

I'm sorry that the scale was up for you ; I hope it goes down again on your official weigh day.

[drjlocarb]

Why Low Carb Should Be High Fat...

Here is a thread I found here, in our own backyard! I haven't finish the whole thing yet, but I think there might be some really good info for our group.

[Mobear]

Thanks drjlocarb for the interesting post. I have to admit that the part with the very complicated calculations seemed to be telling me that I should be eating 1.5 to 4x as many fat grams as protein grams and carb grams combined. If this is correct (great big IF) that means I should be eating between 128g and 320g of fat a day!!!

Currently I am using the info which Maven98 posted in #76 about the Optimal Diet and striving for 130+g a day of fat. I am very curious though about this from the end of her post: "I suppose one difference between this diet and the Atkins Diet is that you need to have the correct ratios at each meal, not just have the numbers add up at the end of the day."

I wonder if this is true - about balancing every meal?? I have just been striving for totals at the end of the day.

On a personal note I did my "official" weigh in this morning and am 192.6 - up from 192.4 last week. I wonder if I balance my ratios at every meal if that would help. Maybe I'll ask for help in the Optimal Diet forum.

[drjlocarb]

What I got from that thread was your body learns to metabolize what you eat. If you are eating carbs, the body runs on carbs. If you eat protein, your body runs on protein and if you eat fat, your body runs on fat.

What that tells me is, depriving your body of dietary fat and eating high protein, will rev up the pathways for converting protein to glucose instead of tapping into fat stores. I think the idea of a higher fat diet is to get the body used to using fat and then lowering the fat once you are fully keto adapted and allowing for the metabolism of body fat.

I am not fully convinced of the need for "balanced meals" as opposed to balanced days. Unless you are diabetic and controlling blood sugars.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

What I got from that thread was your body learns to metabolize what you eat. If you are eating carbs, the body runs on carbs. If you eat protein, your body runs on protein and if you eat fat, your body runs on fat.

What that tells me is, depriving your body of dietary fat and eating high protein, will rev up the pathways for converting protein to glucose instead of tapping into fat stores. I think the idea of a higher fat diet is to get the body used to using fat and then lowering the fat once you are fully keto adapted and allowing for the metabolism of body fat.

I am not fully convinced of the need for "balanced meals" as opposed to balanced days. Unless you are diabetic and controlling blood sugars.

What Drj says is what I am picking up from the sources that I am reading--and if you have insulin resistence, your body will prefer sugar burning to fat burning, so it will convert protein to glucose more readily than happens with people with less insulin resistence.

I've been reading the book for the Rosedale Diet, and Rosedale stresses eating non-saturated fat (in fish, chicken without skin, olive oil, avocado oil, avocado, olives) for the first 3 weeks, because he says the body of insulin resistent people will burn non-saturated fat more easily than saturated fat--at least until their body fully adapts to fat burning.

There are some sources that emphasize spreading out your intake across meals--Rosedale, Bernstein, and in terms of protein, the Phinney web interview. I guess that might be worth trying--focusing on distribution as well as total for the day--if someone wants to try something else.

[Mobear]

Since Dr. Bernstein advises keeping the grams of carbs and protein consistent from day to day and meal to meal, I think I will try this with my fat grams. What has been happening since I started upping the fat is that I get near the end of the day and realize I am low on fat and then eat a couple of pieces of coconut candy.

My blood sugar has been good...with lower insulin so I am happy about that. Now, if I could just start losing it would be amazing.

Hope everyone is having a good day!

[drjlocarb]

Post # 49 in that thread says to eat MORE saturated fat.

Great job on the insulin/BG control Mobear!

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

Post # 49 in that thread says to eat MORE saturated fat.

Great job on the insulin/BG control Mobear!

Yeah, I'm not totally convinced by Rosedale's argument, but he is stressing avoiding the saturated fats for just 3 weeks at minimum. I am likely to try his plan for 3 weeks (still lowcarb, but with more restricted menu, lots of fish and olive oil) and see if it helps me lose faster, but I'm not real optimistic. At the very least, eating lots of fish would up my Omega 3 ratio to Omega 6, which is another "maybe THIS will help" hypothesis I'm planning to test for myself.

And I second the congratulations to Maureen, and hope that the apportioning across meals helps further! Let us know if that help in terms of weight or BG/insulin control.

I'll be posting about the blood tests and saliva tests that'll be doing for the paleo-friendly nutritionist, soon.

[svenskamae]

Maureen, if you get a panel of thyroid tests, you might want to include a test for antibodies from Hashimoto's, which can be a cause of low thyroid. It's included in the tests ordered by the nutritionist I saw yesterday.

Here's what Practical Paleo suggested for thyroid health:
1. Do the autoimmune suggestions for at least 30 days (I'll post those, also)
2. Eat bone broth, liver, fermented veggies like kimchee
3. Get sun exposure for 20 minutes/day if you can
4. Do exercise incorporating gentle movement, like yoga and walking. Avoid "chronic cardio" (aerobic exercise for 60+ minutes)
5. Avoid gluten and goitrogenic foods, or eat the latter sparingly and only when cooked. These include: cabbage, bok choi, broccoli, brussel sprouts, cauliflower, collards, kale, kohlrabi, radishes, rapini, spinach, sweet potatoes, watercress.
6. Avoid refined foods, sweeteners, caffeine, and alcohol.
7. Possible supplements: Vitamin A, cod liver oil, Vitamin B5, Biotin, Vitamin B12, Vitamin C, Chromium, Vitamin D, Vitamin E, Magnesium, Probioics, Selenium, Zinc. (These are not very different from the recommendations she makes for other conditions, however.)

The main thing that seemed distinctive in the thyroid recommendations was the list of goiterogenic veggies to avoid or limit.

For autoimmune disorders:
1. Eat well-cooked foods, such as slow-cooked stews and soups
2. Do stress management/relaxation techniques and weight/resistence exercise
3. Avoid hard to digest foods that may irritate the gut, such as grains, legumes, dairy, eggs, nuts, seeds, nightshades (eggplant, peppers, tomatoes, tomatillos), and veggies high in insoluable fibers, such as leafy greens
4. Avoid alcohol, gluten, stress, pain medications, harsh chemicals, high intensity exercise
5. Suggested supplements: Vitamin A, CoQ10, digestive enzymes, L-Glutamine, DGL (licorice root), Magnesium, Probiotics, Quercitin, selenium with zince

Overall, I think she believes that autoimmune disorders may underlie thyroid problems, and that leaky gut from food sensitivities provokes autoimmune reactions, and the supplements she recommends are based in that set of beliefs.

I think that there are some good ideas (e.g., avoid processed foods and grains, try to protect or restore digestive health) in the paleo literature, but it's a limited bag of tricks in terms of specifications for dealing with particular issues.

[svenskamae]

Here are the Practical Paleo suggestions for fat loss:
1) Eat fermented vegetables (such as kimchi and saurkraut) daily
2) Limit carbs, emphasize protein and fats
3) Try to keep inflammation levels low, do stress management (to limit cortisol)
4) Get 8 hours sleep/night in a dark, quiet room
5) Do moderate resistence training. Do high intensity interval training for 5 to 25 minutes per day, 4 times a week. Also do walking and yoga.
6) Avoid: gluten and dairy (ghee okay). Avoid fruit, sweeteners, alcohol, caffeine, environmental toxins, chronic cardio.
7) Suggested supplements: Vitamin A, cod liver oil, carnitine, chromium, L-glutamin, ALA, magnesium, Omega 3 sources (flax oil), probiotics.

The suggestions for blood sugar regulation are very similar. For blood sugar regular, she suggests:
1. Get tested for C reactive protein (a measure of inflammation) and HbA1c
2. Fasting for more than 5 hours until blood sugar regulation improves. (I think she assumes low blood sugar may be an issue, in making this recommendation.)
3. Supplements: cod liver oil, Vitamin B3, Vitamin B5, Biotin, Vitamin C, chromium picolinate, L-Carnitine, CoQ10, Vitamin E, L-Glutamine, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Magnesium, Selenium and Zinc.
4. Drink peppermint tea.

So, that's pretty much the summary from Practical Paleo. Anyone interested in issues of digestive health might like the book for that section, which was very clearly written, and there are a fair number of lowcarb paleo recipes in it. Otherwise, you've got the meat of it in these 2 posts.

[Key Tones]

OK, I have to unlurk for a moment - I keep reading this tip to add kimchee to your diet for health. I have been taken aback by this advice because of the sources - the whole foods people. Paleo bloggers as well. There is risk in this.

My mother told me 30 years ago that asians tend to die from stomach cancer. Some years after that I came across an article that stated this observation and that kimchee and similarly pickled or fermented vegetables were suspected. I just googled this a bit and see that these are still under suspicion. Japan, Mongolia, Korea, and China have the highest rates of stomach cancer in the world. I also read that the stomach cancer rates come down the more they eat western food. Think about that...

All I have ever read about is how healthy the Japanese diet is. They never talk about stomach cancer!

Anyway, I have observed the making of kimchee (this is a Korean food). Some put a lot of sugar in the recipe. The cancer culprit is thought to be salt. I don't know, but I am very wary.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by Key Tones

OK, I have to unlurk for a moment - I keep reading this tip to add kimchee to your diet for health. I have been taken aback by this advice because of the sources - the whole foods people. Paleo bloggers as well. There is risk in this.

My mother told me 30 years ago that asians tend to die from stomach cancer. Some years after that I came across an article that stated this observation and that kimchee and similarly pickled or fermented vegetables were suspected. I just googled this a bit and see that these are still under suspicion. Japan, Mongolia, Korea, and China have the highest rates of stomach cancer in the world. I also read that the stomach cancer rates come down the more they eat western food. Think about that...

All I have ever read about is how healthy the Japanese diet is. They never talk about stomach cancer!

Anyway, I have observed the making of kimchee (this is a Korean food). Some put a lot of sugar in the recipe. The cancer culprit is thought to be salt. I don't know, but I am very wary.

Interesting point, Keytones. I think that the "eat probiotic foods like kimchee" makes the most sense for people who know that they have problems with digesting food, and it may be of little value to those who don't have digestive issues like leaky gut or yeast overgrowth. One could also take probiotics in pill form or eat cultured foods like yogurt without the added salt and vinegar.

I just starting eating small servings of no-sugar kimchee with one meal a day, and I can't say that I'm crazy about the taste. It feels like "taking my probiotic medicine," and I doubt that I'll replace the jar with a new one when I use it up, unless I get a diagnosis from my nutritionist that is consistent with leaky gut or a similar issue.

Thanks for the warning on this, which I never see mentioned in the paleo literature that I've read.

[drjlocarb]

The adaptation IS training your body. There are different pathways and enzymes needed to digest fats/ptn/carbs that are genetically coded for and the cells need time to up-regulate these to enable them to produce the ATP needed to run each individual cell. It takes time for the body to change this system. It will change the enzymes/pathways needed in response to food in the diet.

What this tells me is if you are doing LC/HP/MF, the body will up-regulate pathways for protein digestion(gluconeogenesis) and down regulate carb digestion, but will not up-regulate fat metabolism. BUT, if you eat LC/MP/HF, the body will up-regulate the fat burning pathways which "trains" your body to metabolize fat(ketogenesis) and it will easier to switch to using FFA released from your fat cells once it is used to utilizing fat from dietary sources.

I think many LC people have a problem with the concept of eating a higher fat diet thinking that the body should be supplying all the fat and we don't need to be eating it. But, if you aren't eating it as a higher % of your calories, the body will not get the "hint" and switch to ketogenesis. I think the pathways are signaled from dietary input. The fat is supposed to be for emergencies and if you are eating carbs and/or protein as your main dietary sources, it will regulate to what it thinks will be in constant supply and leave the stored fat alone.

This training process will not happen overnight.(turning genes on and off)


I think I have trained my body to use protein VERY efficiently, but not so much with fat. I can use fat when needed as I have been in ketosis for 3 years with no weight loss for the last 2, but the nutritional ketosis levels are proof that the body has fully adapted to using fat as a major fuel source.

I need to down regulate gluconeogenesis and try to up-regulate ketogenesis.


Do I think all LC dieters need to be this strict? NO, but I think those who have stalled on LC may need to consider it.

Generic LC worked great for me in the past, but I think my body has decided LC is normal and the higher protein has made me very efficient at LC/HP WOE and this is why I have high FBG on LC but not on a higher carb diet. I think the gene expression for a LC/HP diet are always sitting in the background waiting to be used, but the HF pathways are not fully in use.


Sorry for the long post, but I needed to get this in writing with the hopes it will make sense and I am looking for some feedback. Thanks for reading.


I moved this here( from the NK thread) for us to discuss too. Don't want to re-type and not sure if all of you are kurking there too.

[svenskamae]

That makes a great deal of sense to me, drj, and is very clearly laid out by in your post.

I've been reading a book called "Deep Nutrition," by a physician with a background in genetics, and the author strongly emphasizes the pliancy of the genes we have and how our diets and behaviors turn their expression off and on. That seems very consistent with your analysis.

So, in terms of concrete strategy, for someone in your situation, does it make sense to limit protein and up fat and be patient? Or are there other things that I'm missing?

In terms of down-regulating glycogenesis, does it make sense to locate or share information on strategies for lowering blood sugar levels? In my obsessive "maybe research and reading will help me" approach, I've been collecting information about supplements, nutrition, etc. that is supposed to help with blood sugar control and insulin resistence. Would that information be of interest? I can post summary info here, along with the sources for the info, if that helps.

[drjlocarb]

Strategy for now will be;

1. learn to like bacon all floppy-like, and eat more
2. throw away the egg whites
3. fry more veggies in bacon grease...had fried shredded zucc for lunch, not bad
4. eat more dark meat, skin on chicken and turkey
5. enjoy the butter on my steak
6. eat more cream cheese, um.., um.., stuff
7. enjoy LC baked goods with tons of butter
8. make lots of salads with veggies and Ranch or Blu Cheese dressing

I am not going to get all freaked out about tracking at this point, but I will watch protein intake..ie, no more chicken only lunches and steak only dinners.

It was so easy to grab a chicken breast for lunch. I may have to change that to a couple of HB eggs and just ditch the yolks.
Less steak at a time and I will have to cook more veggies....frozen food section here I come

[clackley]

I think you make excellent points Drj. It really makes sense and should be 'demonstrable'. It also explains why so many seem to get stuck like a truck in muck.

Have you adjusted your eating to accommodate this theory?

Do you mind if I share your thoughts with my very stalled (in fact never lost with low/carb and has been steadily gaining) sister?

Svenskamae - I would be very interested in any information you think may be helpful but I must say that I have a cupboard full of supplements that have proven to be ineffective. In fact, I have put a self imposed moratorium on buying any more ...... but I am open to new information.

[clackley]

Oops, I see I was writing while you posted.

[Speck333]

Just stopping by to say "hi" to everyone. I'm hanging tough and hope to hammer out some kind of action plan soon. TTYL!

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by clackley

Svenskamae - I would be very interested in any information you think may be helpful but I must say that I have a cupboard full of supplements that have proven to be ineffective. In fact, I have put a self imposed moratorium on buying any more ...... but I am open to new information.

Okay, I'll post what I dig up/have dug up on this, over the next few days and as I find more stuff mentioned. I'm guessing that a bunch of the supplements that I've read about are ones you've already tried, Clackley, but then you can let us know that they didn't work for you.

One thing that I am considering doing is talking to my doctor about doing Glucophage/Metformin on a trial basis. While generally considered a drug for diabetes and PCOS, it is sometimes prescribed for weight loss for people who have insulin resistence--to "level the playing field" by making them less insulin-resistent, if they do all the other things right (limit calories, limit carbs, exercise, etc.) but weren't losing weight. I will wait to consult with my pro-paleo nutritionist (and getting the results from the lab tests he ordered) before seeing my doctor, but this is on my long "things to try" list. Has anyone here tried Glucophage/Metformin? What was your experience with it?

Another possible issue/avenue: Has anyone besides me been tested and treated for adrenal fatigue/high cortisol? The nutritionist that I saw on Wednesday commented on having worked with runners who were eating 800-1000 calories a day, apparently using up several thousand calories through running, and gaining weight. They had some better results when they reduced their cortisol levels, and he thought that might be an issue for me. I'll do the cortisol level testing this weekend.

Anyway, these comments aren't meant to imply any disagreement with drj's conclusions and approach, just to lay out a couple of other avenues/approaches that might be considered in conjunction with trying to become a better fat-burner.

[drjlocarb]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

That makes a great deal of sense to me, drj, and is very clearly laid out by in your post.


In terms of down-regulating glycogenesis, does it make sense to locate or share information on strategies for lowering blood sugar levels? In my obsessive "maybe research and reading will help me" approach, I've been collecting information about supplements, nutrition, etc. that is supposed to help with blood sugar control and insulin resistence. Would that information be of interest? I can post summary info here, along with the sources for the info, if that helps.

COOL!!

I would love a research assistant!

BUT, I don't want to offend you, I need to see the research behind the recommendations and I would rather eat foods than take supplement. I am not interested in associations or "shown tos". No offense to those who do take supplements, but I don't feel supplement companies are all that honest about what they include in a pill nor do they process things in a way that the active ingredient is still active.

If I can get those "things" in food , I would be happy to eat those things to get the things. Get my drift?


That makes me sound like an ungrateful witch^^^^

What I mean is..
Statins are used to lower cholesterol but they KILL your liver. Gluconeogenesis also happens in the liver and I want to be sure I don't start taking things that will interfere so much with the liver's normal function that I end up doing damage. Or that I could overdose(unintended consequences) by taking concentrated elements.


Then again, I am sure there are others peeking in here who would love any info you could find for us. They may not be as hesitant as I am and we need all the help we can get.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

Strategy for now will be;

1. learn to like bacon all floppy-like, and eat more
2. throw away the egg whites
3. fry more veggies in bacon grease...had fried shredded zucc for lunch, not bad
4. eat more dark meat, skin on chicken and turkey
5. enjoy the butter on my steak
6. eat more cream cheese, um.., um.., stuff
7. enjoy LC baked goods with tons of butter
8. make lots of salads with veggies and Ranch or Blu Cheese dressing

I am not going to get all freaked out about tracking at this point, but I will watch protein intake..ie, no more chicken only lunches and steak only dinners.

It was so easy to grab a chicken breast for lunch. I may have to change that to a couple of HB eggs and just ditch the yolks.
Less steak at a time and I will have to cook more veggies....frozen food section here I come

For the "...um, um .., stuff," I suggest oil-cured olives, avocados (I eat a whole one sliced as part of a meal or tossed in a salad), coconut butter eaten off a spoon, organic sour cream as a condiment/side dish, pates made with lots of butter, cream soups made with HWC, HWC in coffee and tea, chicken soup made without skimming off the fat, etc.

I can post more recipes with high ratios of fat to protein/carbs, if people want them. My latest snack: flax crackers generously slathered with organic sour cream, with a little salmon roe sprinkled on top for flavor.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

COOL!!

I would love a research assistant!

BUT, I don't want to offend you, I need to see the research behind the recommendations and I would rather eat foods than take supplement. I am not interested in associations or "shown tos". No offense to those who do take supplements, but I don't feel supplement companies are all that honest about what they include in a pill nor do they process things in a way that the active ingredient is still active.

If I can get those "things" in food , I would be happy to eat those things to get the things. Get my drift?


That makes me sound like an ungrateful witch^^^^

What I mean is..
Statins are used to lower cholesterol but they KILL your liver. Gluconeogenesis also happens in the liver and I want to be sure I don't start taking things that will interfere so much with the liver's normal function that I end up doing damage. Or that I could overdose(unintended consequences) by taking concentrated elements.


Then again, I am sure there are others peeking in here who would love any info you could find for us. They may not be as hesitant as I am and we need all the help we can get.

What happened to my post responding to your message??? Anyway, here goes again, sorry if it shows up twice.

No offense taken at all, drj. I'll post what I find out, list the source of information so that others can evaluate the credibility of the author and follow the footnote trail (if any), and when something is available in food form as well as supplement form, post about both. I've tried some supplements that didn't work for me in the past, too, but I'll post about supplements anyway, so we can share information and the information is out there for people who want to try the supplement route.

[drjlocarb]

It looks lke we are falling all over ourselves posting at the same time.

[drjlocarb]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

For the "...um, um .., stuff," I suggest oil-cured olives, avocados (I eat a whole one sliced as part of a meal or tossed in a salad), coconut butter eaten off a spoon, organic sour cream as a condiment/side dish, pates made with lots of butter, cream soups made with HWC, HWC in coffee and tea, chicken soup made without skimming off the fat, etc.

I can post more recipes with high ratios of fat to protein/carbs, if people want them. My latest snack: flax crackers generously slathered with organic sour cream, with a little salmon roe sprinkled on top for flavor.

Recipes, I recipes!!

I didn't think I was bad with food, but I don't like olives, avocados, fish/seafood, coffee, or tea. Soups need crackers and I have never had coconut butter. Man, that's bad.

I have learned to like sour cream.

[drjlocarb]

Originally Posted by svenskamae

I'll post what I find out, list the source of information so that others can evaluate the credibility of the author and follow the footnote trail (if any), and when something is available in food form as well as supplement form, post about both.

I thought I had a free research assistant.

[svenskamae]

Originally Posted by drjlocarb

I thought I had a free research assistant.

I supervise 4-8 research assistants at my job. I speak from experience when I say, there's no such thing as a "free" research assistant. Even if you don't pay them money, they create work for you to follow up on. That would apply to my services. Still, it's better to have an RA that makes work for you than to have no RA at all and have to do it all yourself, IMO.

[drjlocarb]

Originally Posted by clackley

I think you make excellent points Drj. It really makes sense and should be 'demonstrable'. It also explains why so many seem to get stuck like a truck in muck.

Have you adjusted your eating to accommodate this theory?

Do you mind if I share your thoughts with my very stalled (in fact never lost with low/carb and has been steadily gaining) sister?

Svenskamae - I would be very interested in any information you think may be helpful but I must say that I have a cupboard full of supplements that have proven to be ineffective. In fact, I have put a self imposed moratorium on buying any more ...... but I am open to new information.

Share, share, share!

Your response to Svenskamae was soooo much more tactfully done than mine.