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Old 08-16-2012, 04:57 AM   #481
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I'm so sorry Cathy. I really do know what you're going through. I didn't count for 3 weeks, but I did eat vlc during that time.

BIG HUGS and a kleenex.
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Old 08-16-2012, 05:22 AM   #482
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Thanks everyone for your kind words.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:52 AM   #483
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Oh, Cathy, I'm so sorry about the loss of your beloved cat. That it was unexpected probably just makes it even harder for you. My cat greets me at the door when I come home, sleeps with me every night, and has been my companion for over 10 years. I know it will break my heart when she dies, and I'm sure that's how you are feeling.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:08 AM   #484
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If you only had 10-15 more pounds to lose, would you go through all this time searching, tweaking, and stressing?

I think I would just call it a day. When I have 50+ pounds before I even get to that point, I am not sure my brain would be able do that. IF I ever get there.

When do you just decide an extra 50+ pounds is going to have to be good enough?
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:20 AM   #485
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I don't know what to say Drj. I read a long time ago on Jenny's website that most people can't lose more than 20% of their starting weight and maintain the loss. I lost 18% and have maintained involuntarily for a year. The goal I had originally was a 25% weight loss....and that still left me obese. Right now I am 32lbs from that very high goal.

When Jimmy started posting the stuff about high fat, thought that might be the answer. So far, I have reduced my insulin again and improved by blood sugar. The up and down weight loss seems to have shrunk from 5lbs to 3lbs...but that's it.

LC had become very second nature to me. I am still struggling with the HF/mod protein. I'm going to keep at it - what choice is there??

Was it Gary Taubes or someone else that said that some women - older like me and obese most of their lives - will not be able to get to a normal weight?
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:57 AM   #486
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I dislike Jenny Ruhl's flat out statements like the one that Maureen posted. I have heard her say this and if she were to back it up with something I could give it some validity but she just makes these kind of grand statements and they are neither useful or necessarily true. It really makes me mad because the suggestion is that you might as well give up. I believe that is what she did....

I have no intention of giving up and I get hope from a lot of things I read. Even over at the ketogenic thread, there is a person who didn't lose for 9 yrs. and with a l/c, mod. protein/ high fat woe, she has begun to lose again. Maybe it took her body (and ours) that long to get to a point where it could lose again and the shift in macro nutrients just gave it the shove it needed. Who knows?

In the book "Life Without Bread", the authors report a lot of clinical experiences which makes it very credible for me. In one chapter they talk about the length of time it takes to heal ulceration colitis (up to 8yrs) and I draw a parallel to a damaged metabolism - it could just take that long.

So in the meantime, I am doing no further damage with my woe. I continue to tweak and experiment but no way am I saying I have arrived at my destination. Just no way!
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:46 AM   #487
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Cathy I also am leary of some of Jenny's conclusions. I'm not giving up....but there are so many of us that have been stalled for a very long time that it does make me wonder if I will ever lose any more weight. Not all of the stalled ones post here, but I read comments in the Main Lobby and think 'yep there is another stalled one'.

I am sorry I upset you, I really didn't mean to do that I'm going to continue with what I am doing and hope for the best
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Old 08-17-2012, 01:22 PM   #488
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Oh Maureen, you did not upset me. We are on the very same page I think and I respect everything you have to say. It is Jenny Ruhl that upsets me. I listened to an interview on Jimmy Moore with her as a guest and she infuriates me with some of what she has to say. When she used to post here, she did the same. She does not have all the answers and she acts like she does. That is what bothers me. Please don't feel like you upset me....
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:20 PM   #489
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I've found statements about how people will definitely gain back weight really disheartening, too, but we know by example that ISN'T true for everyone. There are some people who visit this board who are maintaining their losses for a decade or longer, sticking with a lowcarb woe (for example, TaDa, and Auntie Em); Keytones just hit her goal of losing 100 pounds after years of hard work. I can't imagine a more determined or disciplined group of people than the people in this challenge.
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Old 08-18-2012, 09:35 AM   #490
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I didn't mean give up, as in eat high carb, I meant be OK with the weight you are at now and stop obsessing.
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Old 08-18-2012, 09:38 AM   #491
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I will continue to try to lose until I get to goal.
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Old 08-18-2012, 04:11 PM   #492
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I'm never giving up.

Never!!!

I need a character that stomps!!! Well, I'll make do with screaming and fist pounding.

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Old 08-18-2012, 07:46 PM   #493
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I love you guys!!!
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:09 AM   #494
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Right back at you!
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:24 AM   #495
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I don't intend to ever return to higher carb eating. It would be a disaster for me. However, I am still struggling with making HF/MP/LC second nature so for now that is my goal. Be comfortable with eating 50-55g of protein with most days at 50g.

Some of the thousands of online calculators have my protein requirement as 35g....and right now that is to me!! So, I will work at making 50g comfortable and then try and adjust down again. I would be so thrilled to lose any darn number of pounds that I can't imagine what I would do...run nekkid around my backyard....who knows!

I just read Jimmy's latest report on his n=1 experiment. While I appreciate what he is doing, I really wish he would just tell us the calories, etc. of this whole thing. If the breakfast he talks about is his only "meal" while doing IF he would be eating around 95-100g of protein.

Any thoughts about his latest post?
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:37 AM   #496
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Hey Ill join in;)

I am just 5-7 lbs shy of my goal weight, but going back to school (I teach) will be a challenge! I am already 'stress eating' a bit too much in the evening. I am not really that hungry, but popping this and that into my mouth and do not want to continue that way. No way to make goals!

Soooooo I am planning on doing a calorie track see what I have left in the 1200-1500 range, and watch from that evening point. Worked for me before on my HCG--so will try again.

Good luck to all, I exercise too, off to hot yoga this fine morning!

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Old 08-19-2012, 05:49 AM   #497
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Welcome plarson .
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:54 AM   #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobear View Post
I don't intend to ever return to higher carb eating. It would be a disaster for me. However, I am still struggling with making HF/MP/LC second nature so for now that is my goal. Be comfortable with eating 50-55g of protein with most days at 50g.

Some of the thousands of online calculators have my protein requirement as 35g....and right now that is to me!! So, I will work at making 50g comfortable and then try and adjust down again. I would be so thrilled to lose any darn number of pounds that I can't imagine what I would do...run nekkid around my backyard....who knows!

I just read Jimmy's latest report on his n=1 experiment. While I appreciate what he is doing, I really wish he would just tell us the calories, etc. of this whole thing. If the breakfast he talks about is his only "meal" while doing IF he would be eating around 95-100g of protein.

Any thoughts about his latest post?
I read the comments right through and towards the end he made a comment about sometimes having to eat a second meal. That would be pretty interesting because it could be considered intermittent fasting, leptin reset (bab), calorie cycling lc/mod protein/ high fat and calorie counting or all that contribute to weight loss.

I am also puzzled that he didn't seem to have the benefits of ketosis until starting this experiment. I am sure I have been in ketosis all along but I don't test with the blood strips so ......

I promised myself that I would not spend more $ on the latest thing and that appears to be this testing kit. I don't know but I may have to go back on my promise.
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:55 AM   #499
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Plarsen!
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:02 AM   #500
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Hi all. Welcome Pat (plarsen).

No, I will never give up. I may take a break, go on safari, enter into hiatus, but I will never give up.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:41 PM   #501
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Hi all. Welcome Pat (plarsen).

No, I will never give up. I may take a break, go on safari, enter into hiatus, but I will never give up.
But, inquiring minds want to know....are you willing to runaround nekkid in your backyard????
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:20 PM   #502
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I see that Jimmy Moore is having Steve Phinney as guest this week on ask the low carb experts and is vetting questions on the issue of long term stalls. This is our topic and would love to come up with a concise and relevant question - ideas??
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:24 AM   #503
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Concise and relevant?

How the hell can we be 50+ pounds overweight and do it all right and still be stalled for 2 years??
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:25 AM   #504
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Too concise??
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:51 AM   #505
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Here's another way to word the same basic question: What approaches would you suggest for people who do not lose weight even when keeping calories low, exercising, keeping carbohydrates very low, and keeping fat/protein/carb proportions consistent with being in nutritional ketosis?

That insulin resistence can prevent weight loss is now well-accepted in the low carb community. What other biological factors (hormones, etc.) can prevent weight loss, for people who are eating very lowcarb (and limiting calories as well)?

I've never submitted questions to Jimmy Moore. Would it be helpful for me to send these in or would someone else want to send them in (or some variation of them)?
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:56 AM   #506
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I think adding...."as Jimmy knows" to the question in reference to doing all the right things, would help him to understand we HAVE tried all the conventional strategies. He has been dealing with all the same "helpful" suggestions in his comments section for a few years.

I would also like to know why fbg, as well as A1C would be high on vlc, but not when on mod(50-60g) carb. And no pp bld/gluc spikes on either woe.

Another question I would have is, when is protein too low as to threaten muscle mass?
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:59 AM   #507
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Sound like great questions, drj. Will you be submitting those?
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:27 AM   #508
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Hi, Ladies. I hope you all don't mind if I post. I ran across your thread the other day, and found myself drawn to sending you lots of good thoughts, and have been thinking about what I might possibly be able to contribute. All your posts remind me of me.

I'll just type away, in case something in my experience, could be of help to someone:

When I was younger, staying off the sweets and starches, the sauces, refined foods, packaged/prepared foods, etc., and skipping dinner, sometimes, worked really well. (Indulging in them meant getting pudgy, and less mental poise. Isn't hindsight nifty. )

Then, my hormones changed, and before I found the internet LC "movement" and such great info, my only additional tool was to eat a whole lot less. I've been VLC for a little over two years now. When I started VLC, I had been on one of my "eat a whole lot less" campaigns for a while. I gained weight when I went VLC and started following, what was, at that time, Dr. Harris' list of recommendations. Due to Dr. Harris' recommendations, I gave up the rest of the grains (I have been off of gluten grains and sugars for years), legumes, PUFA-foods: nuts/seeds/their oils.

Dr. Harris recommended Dr. Richard Bernstein's book. Dr. B's book gave me the courage to go VLC, give up fruit, and I made a commitment to give it a serious go for two years (knowing I would keep on after that).

I tried ACV, and didn't care for the sweet taste at all, not at all. I tried CO, and the salicylate effect of lowering blood sugar, and possible allergy reactions did not sit well. And CO has no cholesterol. (I use beef fat, butter and ghee.)

Eating at Dr. Kwasniewski's recommended levels for my height, also puts on the weight, very quickly. I'm 170 cm tall. His recommendations, taking the middle numbers: 70g/PRO, 140 - 175g/FAT, and 35g/CHO work out to gaining two or three pounds a week, for me. Like many others here, my usual numbers are CHO grams in the 20s, PRO grams 50-60, some days lower, and splurge days higher, and FAT in the 1.5 - 2 times the protein amount, rather than Dr. K's 2.5. (I lose weight easily and maintain a low weight easily only if I make the fat very low, but I then feel quite "crummy", and wonder what detrimental effects the low fat has. Dr. K and Dr. Ravnskov are adamant.)

Even at those levels, with all the supplements, friendly exercise, and care for rest and as much mental poise as I can manage, it is obvious to me, that I have some kind of mitochondrial inefficiency, and that there is a disturbance in the uptake and utilization of glucose, as well as not ideal neurotransmitter and endorphin function.

I do not like it at all, that the default tool comes back to "eating a whole lot less".

I am looking into reducing things that disturb endocrine function, (fewer EMFs, less plastic, etc.) And improving intestinal flora.

Peter Dobromylskyj's posts on FIAF and the intestinal flora controlling what appetite and fat storage are subjects I am keen to know more about.





Things that help me:

Sleep, rest, doing things that help me have mental and spiritual peace
Supplements: Vit. D and E, CLO, magnesium, iodine and selenium, zinc, Chromium GTF, Biotin, Evening Primrose Oil, PicMins mineral complex, and Black Cohosh/Licorice Root/Dong Quai. Sometimes I take myo-inositol, and occasionally d-chiro-inositol (also helps with hot flash elimination), and lysine, or taurine. The taurine helps with headaches. The lysine helps with some allergic reactions I get. The inositols are very calming and stabilizing. L-Carnitine in the morning, and L-Glutamine when the carb cravings or unnecessary appetite appear. (L-Glutamine also increases GABA, which is nice anytime, but especially when doing very, very low carb and eating less.)

Callanetics, yoga, rebounding (gently), and walks outside are my exercise. They help me mentally as much as physically. Callanetics and yoga increase GABA, as does the yoghurt I'm so fond of. Walks probably help with overall well-being, and improving insulin sensitivity. The rebounding improves lymph circulation and strengthens mitochondria, among other nifty things.

And, I still have to have times of eating a whole lot less.

Eating offal (for me, calf brains, calf liver, chicken liver) and egg yolks are strengthening for me. Muscle meat is nice. I keep the portions small, and am following, if not all too strictly, Dr. K's recommendations of 3 ounces of muscle meat per day, and one ounce of offal. Some days I eat less than 3 ounces of muscle meat, some days it is 4 - 4 1/2. If I skip a day of offal, I eat two ounces the next day. I eat fish for the Omega 3, but not often. I make bone broth, and try to get some of that in, and that lovely marrow and marrow fat. Occasionally, I buy pastured meat, as I find it more satisfying, more satiating, and it makes it easier to be slender, for me.

I don't have the puzzle worked out well yet. My health has improved with each and every step of removing what Dr. Harris named the Neolithic agents of disease, and taking out what Dr. Mackarnass articulated as the foods due to the industrial revolution.

I can't manage Dr. Donaldson's meat, meat fat, and water. I need some carbs, a few plants for some variety and the yet-to-be-discovered micronutrients which Dr. B wrote about, and am too fond of dairy. (The "down" side of discovering the LC movement on the internet was finding hwc. )

Even with all the measures, rare indulgences, and as you know, a keen interest in reading about what else might help, I still have to fall back to eating less.

I have read various posts of older women who had to stay well under 1000 calories a day, for months, to get to goal. And their goals were reasonable, the standard five pounds for each inch over 5 foot. (Five foot at 100 pounds, five foot and one inch at 105 pounds, etc.)

The very elderly ladies I have known who were slender, those in their nineties, ate very little, and were not self-indulgent.

I dearly wish I had something really substantial, that would make this puzzle a whole lot easier.

In all the reading, what has stood out to me, is how crucial it is, for me, to put health first, and then fiddle with bits and pieces to satisfy my vanity.

I apologize for being so wordy. I don't know how to put this in a few sentences.

You all are in my heart every day, and I'm sending you and the best thoughts.
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Best wishes for happy, healthy LCing.

Last edited by Auntie Em; 08-20-2012 at 09:38 AM.. Reason: typing error
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:17 AM   #509
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Concise and relevant?

How the hell can we be 50+ pounds overweight and do it all right and still be stalled for 2 years??
Yes, I would say that sums it up pretty nicely. I was thinking along the lines of 'fat, female, 50ish and frustrated - nothing works'. Just speaking for myself.



svenskamae, I think your questions are great.

Auntie Em, thank you for your input. I always love your thoughtful posts.

Speaking only for myself, I have been restricting calories quite a bit since about April. I am using an online food tracker and have spent hours and hours designing my menu to fit all the possible requirements. It has been an exercise in frustration.

Prior to that, I was doing a few days of intermittent fasting weekly, which in effect restricts calories. I have tried it all. I was quite disappointed to find that the moderate protein has no effect on my weight either.
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:54 AM   #510
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I also appreciate your helpful post and good wishes, Auntie Em.

Cathy, I am so sorry that nothing is working for you. It really does sound like you have tried everything one can think of, except maybe the blood testing for nutritional ketosis. I understand your reluctance to spend more money on something that might not help. When I ordered a meter and 40 ketone testing strips from "American Diabetes Wholesale," the total came to $112. (Meter plus 10 strips was $40, each box of 10 more strips was $24.) I haven't started testing yet, but I assumed that number of testing strips was enough to give me plenty of room to experiment/tweak my diet and exercise. Anyway, that should give you a ballpark estimate of costs.

Thanks for the input on my draft questions. I sent them to Jimmy Moore's email address, as suggestions for things to ask Steve Phinney.
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