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Old 07-20-2012, 05:17 PM   #391
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How long do you bake your savory cheesecake, drjlocarb? At 350 degrees or at some other temperature?

Thanks for posting the ingredients. When my work hours stop being ridiculously long in a couple of weeks, I'll try to make one myself. I was thinking of maybe adding some blue cheese and chopped walnuts ...
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:46 PM   #392
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I baked it in a glass bowl 5 inches in diam at 350 for 40-45 min.
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Old 07-20-2012, 08:34 PM   #393
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Post #8 in this thread is a high fat custard for dessert. I was thinking about a savory version with some sour cream and mushrooms added to make a stroganoff type sauce for hamburger or pork chops.


http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/lo...emon-curd.html
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Old 07-20-2012, 08:35 PM   #394
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Speaking of mushrooms, I think the savory cheesecake would make great stuffed mushrooms.
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Old 07-21-2012, 06:10 AM   #395
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My b.g. testing this morning ..... 82.8 (Canadian 4.6)!!!
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:20 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by clackley View Post
My b.g. testing this morning ..... 82.8 (Canadian 4.6)!!!



So...the "physiological" ketosis we were reading about in the other blogs was NOT an OK thing for those of us still trying to lose. It seems to indicate instead that we were producing too much glucose through gluconeogenesis. The morning glucoses may be high because we are not using as much glucose at night so it accumulates through out the night. Just "thinking" out loud.
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:27 AM   #397
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I would like to see this repeated a number of times as it could be a fluke but if it repeats, it would definitely say something about the amount of protein I am consuming. I am keeping my grams pretty low (in the 35 to 45g range).

Another theory is that b.g. levels are actually falling too low through the night and gluconeogenisis is over responding.... The only way to tell for sure is to test in the middle of the night which I am not prepared to do at this point.
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:40 AM   #398
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I didn't want to do that either.

But if we were truly keto adapted, we should have been able to make enough ketones from our ample fat to supply energy without having to use the glucose for survival. Why would a body eat it's muscle at night to survive? And why would the body make so much more than we need? Is the liver working at a set rate 24/7 and we just don't use enough during the night? Is the liver pumping out glucose because we are not using fat for fuel?
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:13 AM   #399
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Is the liver pumping out glucose because we are not using fat for fuel? Is this possible? Can gluconeogenisis become a preferred pathway for fuel during the night because the fat cells refuse to give in to supplying fuel or can't because of insulin resistance? Is this how the body determines homeostasis? And finally, is it possible that true ketosis is not being achieved with too much protein?

I don't have a ketone monitor and only stix. I tested yesterday showed trace. I will check again today. Yesterday I consumed approx. 19g carbs/15g net....... I am seriously considering getting a monitor.
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Old 07-21-2012, 11:18 AM   #400
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Those are great questions. I'm planning to send away for the nutritional ketosis monitor (one with expensive testing strips) this week. I already bought a standard blood glucose monitor--the kind most diabetics use--and have to teach myself how to use that at various times of day. I don't think I can start monitoring consistently using either meter until my work hours get reasonable again (down to 40 hours a week) in mid-August, but I'm planning to make a project of that after I get past these work deadlines.

I know that the testing strips are expensive, but I realized that I used to throw away more money than that on something that made me less healthy when I smoked a pack of cigarettes a day. Would I pay that same amount or more to have a reasonably reliable indicator of what mix of fat/protein/carbs I needed to be eating to lose weight. You bet!

If some of us get monitors, post our numbers and food intake figures (calories, net carbs, and percent fat, carbs, and protein) here or in the nutritional ketosis thread regular, along with weight loss results, that should provide some rough guide to others who aren't using the monitors but are encountering similar problems, I hope.

I continue to be HUNGRY as I limit my protein intake, but I hope my body will adjust to being satisfied from eating more fat (preferably my own!) eventually.
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Old 07-21-2012, 11:21 AM   #401
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I think insulin resistance has a lot to do with why, but I feel we have carbs so low that the body may have up-regulated the neogenesis pathways because we are providing the protein in the diet. We have been low carb (and stalled) for 1+ years and this may be how our bodies are compensating. Those darn fat cells are fighting tooth and nail to keep what they have. I don't think this is a problem for the average dieter, but for us, it seems to be happening. If we can open the gates into ketosis at the "nutritional" level, maybe the fat cells will have to help as the body looks for fat to make ketones instead of looking for protein to make glucose.

I have done some reading that mentions pathways that lay dormant until the body needs them then the hormones and enzymes needed are produced in greater quantities.

We are like the Zucker rats that will die from starvation with plenty of fat stores left. (Hoping THAT won't happen)

Maybe we need to train our bodies to prefer ketones over glucose.

Again just thinking out loud.

Last edited by drjlocarb; 07-21-2012 at 11:23 AM..
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Old 07-21-2012, 11:22 AM   #402
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Is it helpful to post recipes here that would work to raise fat intake without adding many grams of protein or carbs? I know I'm grateful when others do that (such as the savory cheesecake recipe from drjlocarb).

Here's one that I found in a paleo cookbook, for avacado dressing:
Combine 2 peeled and diced avacados, 1/4-1/3 cup olive oil, salt and pepper, and 1 T. lemon juice in a food processor. Use as a salad dressing over greens.
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Old 07-21-2012, 12:39 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clackley View Post
Is the liver pumping out glucose because we are not using fat for fuel? Is this possible? Can gluconeogenisis become a preferred pathway for fuel during the night because the fat cells refuse to give in to supplying fuel or can't because of insulin resistance? Is this how the body determines homeostasis? And finally, is it possible that true ketosis is not being achieved with too much protein?

I don't have a ketone monitor and only stix. I tested yesterday showed trace. I will check again today. Yesterday I consumed approx. 19g carbs/15g net....... I am seriously considering getting a monitor.
Cathy
I read this in the Rosedale book. I am paraphrasing a bit as I tried to scan the page but it didn't work well.


As long as there is sugar to be had from a high carb/sugar diet or even excess protein , your body will continue to burn sugar and store fat. You will require your sugar fix and remain leptin resistant and stay hungry as a result of your brain's inability to "hear" leptin.

To break the cycle he says we need to retrain the brain to instruct the cells to burn fat as it's primary fuel. He leans toward lean(er) animal proteins, raw nuts and non starchy green vegetables.
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Old 07-21-2012, 12:50 PM   #404
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Thanks, Jeaniem and Cathy. I've ordered the Rosedale book and expect to get it sometime next week.

In the thread about protein on the main board, Vilya just commented about having better results for blood sugar/weight loss if she ate protein earlier in the day. The timing, as well as the amount of protein eaten, may be factors affecting blood sugar levels and weight loss. So many variables ...

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Old 07-21-2012, 02:35 PM   #405
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This is all so fascinating to me. Thank you all for the discussion! I just put the Rosedale Diet book on hold at the library--I should have it this week.

Since I didn't test before I made changes to my diet and exercise I'm not sure where I started with the blood ketones. I do feel like I'm fat burning and my blood ketones have been in the zone since I started testing. All my tests have confirmed that I'm in the correct range per Phinney/Voleck. Whether I can get to goal or not remains a question.

svenskamae-I at 60 grams of protein at dinner last night and I my blood ketones were still good this morning (2.3). I think once you switch to fat burning you may have more leeway. I think what I ate yesterday is probably more maintenance levels than weight-loss mode.

I have never tested blood glucose. I got a few free test strips with my meter. What is a good level for morning fasting glucose?
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Old 07-21-2012, 02:59 PM   #406
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Hi, Kristn. I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that you ideally want your blood glucose levels to be in the 80s upon waking up. My fasting blood glucose, measured in the morning at the doctor's office (not having eaten in the past 12 hours) was 104, and I was told that was "borderline" to type 2 diabetes. Levels above 125 are considered diabetic, as I recall, and I believe that Jenny Ruhl claims that organ damage from overly high blood sugar happens at 120 or above.
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Old 07-21-2012, 03:38 PM   #407
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Hi,
I have been lurking on this thread since the beginning.
I have been hoping that my weight would start move but no, I am maintaining beautifully.
The discussion here is absolutely fascinating to me. I am a novice and have so much to learn!
I am on the fence as to weather or not I should start measuring my blood glucose.
I am curious and a little afraid.
It sure has been difficult to up the fat and lower the protein but I have a gut feeling it is the protein that is giving me trouble.
Anyway, I just wanted to thank you all for a informative and thoughtful thread.
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Old 07-21-2012, 03:52 PM   #408
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Well, its been an interesting week. I've managed to lower the protein....but my carbs crept up to 45g a couple of days. In recent months I've been able to reduce my insulin for a day or two but this time I've been able to shave 1u off of each meal and still maintain good control.

I checked the percentages of fat for each day and most of the time I am around 70%. One day I did get up to 77%. Don't know if this is enough to cause weight loss, but it is progress. If I can keep the insulin dosage where it is now for awhile, maybe the weight loss will follow.....I hope.

It seems many days I am eating more protein at lunch where before I ate the most protein at my evening meal. My protein has been between 45 - 60g and I'm hoping to stay at 55g until the insulin stabilizes.

I really appreciate the recipes here for higher fat/lower protein. I made drjlocarb's savory cheesecake with ham and it was very good.

I've never tried avacodo salad dressing but I'm going to this coming week.

I appreciate the support in this thread so much, I really can't express how much. Thanks a bunch . Even if the weight loss doesn't happen for me....it is still worth improving my blood sugar. I want to exit this world with all of my limbs, vision, and kidneys!!
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Old 07-21-2012, 04:13 PM   #409
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Hi everyone.

The high fasting glucose(120-130) that I have had (I think) was due to the ketogenic diet. When I tested the rest of the day, my levels fell steadily throughout the day to 83 by bed time. Never did it go up more than 10-15 points after meals. When I stopped the ketogenic diet, the fbg was 80-90. I also tested my A1C at the start and it was a bit high(5.6). After 3 months off the non-ketogenic diet, the A1C dropped to normal levels too(4.9).

I don't think I am borderline diabetic with dawn phenomenon, I think there was some nasty gluconeogenesis going on then. But, maybe I would be if I hadn't been watching carbs for most of the last 12 years.
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Old 07-21-2012, 04:15 PM   #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenskamae View Post
Hi, Kristn. I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that you ideally want your blood glucose levels to be in the 80s upon waking up. My fasting blood glucose, measured in the morning at the doctor's office (not having eaten in the past 12 hours) was 104, and I was told that was "borderline" to type 2 diabetes. Levels above 125 are considered diabetic, as I recall, and I believe that Jenny Ruhl claims that organ damage from overly high blood sugar happens at 120 or above.
I would test. See if it is the same as what I saw of if you react to carbs too.
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Old 07-21-2012, 05:57 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by drjlocarb View Post
I would test. See if it is the same as what I saw of if you react to carbs too.
I'll test my fasting blood glucose along with my blood ketones tomorrow morning. This is all very interesting. I've only once been tested for fasting glucose (1 year ago) and it was 83. At the time I was eating a general low-carb diet without counting anything (probably in the 50 carb range) and maintaining at 175lbs. This was the same blood test where it was discovered that I was hypothyroid.
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:39 AM   #412
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Good morning everyone. I must say Drjlocarb that I really enjoyed your savory cheesecake. I'm hoping these can be frozen so that I can make a few when the temp drops and I can have them on hand. I had 1/4 of my savory ham cheesecake this morning for breakfast.

I did well with my food yesterday and managed to stay in my protein and carb limits. Had a couple of creamcheese clouds last night so went over on calories.

On Sunday I usually go out with an old friend to a buffet. In the past I would just have additional protein while she chows down on everything. It is a little more difficult now. Last week I was tossing back pats of butter while she was up getting more crap...er food

I am beyond pleased that I got up to another very good fasting blood sugar this morning....85!!

Have a great day everyone.
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Old 07-22-2012, 08:39 AM   #413
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So what does it mean that my blood glucose was 65 this morning?
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:48 AM   #414
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Those "morning after" readings can be quite low.
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:01 AM   #415
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Aha! I'll test again tomorrow morning. Perhaps the alcohol reduced the ketones too? My reading was 1.5, the lowest that I've recorded so far.
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:07 AM   #416
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This morning fasting blood sugar was 77. Ketones were 2.5. The numbers seem pretty good, but still no real weight loss for a few weeks (bouncing between 160 and 162).
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Old 07-23-2012, 11:55 AM   #417
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I'm back Had no cell reception where I was, so I was totally "old school" lol I just finished putting my two weeks menu together and need to get to the store. My strategy is going to be to eat a normal, low carb dinner with my family, and pretty much fat fast throughout the rest of the day. Unfortunately I have no idea what to eat today. I've had coffee with cream and coconut oil so far. I may just eat butter lol
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:10 PM   #418
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Quote:
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This morning fasting blood sugar was 77. Ketones were 2.5. The numbers seem pretty good, but still no real weight loss for a few weeks (bouncing between 160 and 162).
Thanks for continuing to check and post, Kristn. I'm sure we all appreciate your doing this experiment and sharing your data with us. I hope that weight loss follows eventually, but for now, it's really valuable just as an experiment.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:31 PM   #419
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I'm back Had no cell reception where I was, so I was totally "old school" lol I just finished putting my two weeks menu together and need to get to the store. My strategy is going to be to eat a normal, low carb dinner with my family, and pretty much fat fast throughout the rest of the day. Unfortunately I have no idea what to eat today. I've had coffee with cream and coconut oil so far. I may just eat butter lol
Welcome back!

You should at least flavor the butter for more variety.


I made a pizza cheesecake last night.

I bought some GIANT mushrooms(in the managers special bin) for stuffed mushrooms tonight. I think I can eat them for dinner with bacon and no other protein.

My meals have become just cream cheese appetizers.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:55 PM   #420
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I've noticed that it's easiest to find high fat, lower protein recipes if one looks in the appetizer section of cookbooks, so I'm not surprised to hear that, drjlocarb. Your stuffed mushroom dinner sounds delicious.

I'll try to post some more high fat recipes, soon; some that I noticed as good prospects were hot crab dip and hot artichoke dip. Cream Soups made with cream rather than milk seem like a good possibility too. And then there's low carb cheesecake (including the sweet ones) and custards made with cream; maybe I'll have to break down and start eating artificial sweeteners after all. Oh, I also found a liver pate recipe with lots of butter. And then there's hollandaise sauce and bernaise sauce ...

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