Newbie with fat/calorie questions

[NeGA]

Hello All. Let me begin by saying that I found this site because I was/am investigating Kimkins. I work in a hospital and had recently read the article that was in an older Woman's World magazine. I was not aware of all the legal problems associated with the diet/web site and was thankful when a Yahoo search gave me some info that kept me from spending $79 to sign up for the program.

Having said all of that... I've done some extensive reading on this site and hope some of y'all will indulge me with a few questions...

I've read were many have been unhappy (ha!) with the program itself because the calories are so low and the fat intake is low.

I've read where people are speaking of hair loss and other health related issues such as nausea, blackouts, etc.

I mentioned I work in a hospital... we have a large bariatric practice here that does the gastric bypass/lap banding surgeries. These patients come out of the procedure on extremely caloric restrictive/volume restricted diets and while they do take supplements, they seem to thrive... at least nutritionally...

As for the fat intake... I've been told that to maintain healthy nerve function you only need 1 tablespoon of dietary fat per day... 14 grams (like real butter). As far as the fish oil, supplements are fine. An excellent multi-purpose vitamin and and some take extra C mixtures.

So... if post gastric patients have low calories, low fat, high protein, sip on water all day... how is that different from Kimkins?

I'm truly curious, as I believe in low carb and have personally benefited from it but with Atkins I always ended up eating too many calories or too much fat or something because I loose to one point and then that's it. So I was researching more restrictive plans than 'bacon and pork rinds' (no offense to the true, hardcore Atkins lovers!) hence finding Kimkins interesting in that old magazine.

Thanks for any advice shared.

Karla

[Stargazey]

Originally Posted by NeGA

So... if post gastric patients have low calories, low fat, high protein, sip on water all day... how is that different from Kimkins?

Hi, Karla!

I believe the main difference between Kimkins and post-bariatric surgery patients is the fact that these patients will not be on low calories, low fat, high protein and water forever. As they progress post-op, they will gradually increase their food intake to a healthy level. They also have continual medical and psychological followup to be sure they don't do damage to their bodies and psyches in the process of losing weight. Even so, weight loss surgery is not without significant side effects, up to and including death.

We don't know of anyone who has died from doing Kimkins. But we do know of women who have lost hair, experienced blackouts, had heart palpitations and developed eating disorders as a result of Kimkins. Their stories are all over this board. Most of those symptoms appear to be temporary once normal caloric intake is restored. Unfortunately, it appears that if Kimkins triggers an eating disorder, that problem is much harder to resolve.

During the evolution of the Fascination with Kimmer threads, we learned that a long period of starvation-level calories does produce significant weight loss. But it also resets the body's metabolic rate. The body is not a calories-in/calories-out machine. If it senses that it will be getting very few calories for a long time, it adjusts its metabolism downward, and the adjustment is not temporary. The woman who used to be able to maintain her weight at 1500 calories a day finds out after Kimkins that she now relentlessly gains weight if she goes back to eating that much. That is why, after all these years, Kimkins does not have a maintenance plan for people to follow after they have lost their weight.

While Kimkins and the initial post-op stages of weight loss surgery look somewhat similar, they are quite different. Please keep reading and investigating. There is quite a bit of information available on this board, and if you work at it, you should be able to find a healthy weight loss plan that results in permanent weight loss for you.

[2big4mysize]

Stargazey very well put. one more difference between the 2 is weight loss surgery is only preformed on morbidly obese folk Kimkins is sold to anyone willing to shell out $79.95 regardless of the amount of pounds they have to shed.

While those sufferring from morbid obeseity have huge health risks associated with their current body weight and the nutrients are supplemented based on blood work of the WLS patient the risk of death is great and explained to the person before they undergo the surgery and start the diet something kimkins doesn't mention nor warn customers about.


Since you work in a hospital with a bariatric center why don't you go show the kimkins plan from this site to those folk and ask them if it is a safe plan for you to do and if they say yes ask what supplements you should also be taking.

[CarolynF]

Karla: I do think bariatric patients are eating carbs, aren't they? That is a huge difference.
A person can do a low calorie diet with carbs, lowfat, and a good amount of protein and be healthy. You can either burn "carbs" for your energy or "fat" for your energy.

Kimkins eliminates both carbs and fats..this is not a healthy thing because lean protein is not a good thing to burn..

[coolhandluke]

Originally Posted by 2big4mysize

Stargazey very well put. one more difference between the 2 is weight loss surgery is only preformed on morbidly obese folk Kimkins is sold to anyone willing to shell out $79.95 regardless of the amount of pounds they have to shed.

While those sufferring from morbid obeseity have huge health risks associated with their current body weight and the nutrients are supplemented based on blood work of the WLS patient the risk of death is great and explained to the person before they undergo the surgery and start the diet something kimkins doesn't mention nor warn customers about.


Since you work in a hospital with a bariatric center why don't you go show the kimkins plan from this site to those folk and ask them if it is a safe plan for you to do and if they say yes ask what supplements you should also be taking.

I am afraid that you are way off on the risk of death to WLS patients. You call it a great risk and that simply is not true at all.

[2big4mysize]

I have a friend who died as a result of their complications from their WLS. i am not off base on this. you might want to check the support sites for those going into WLS and coming out. You also might want to visit BamaGals blog and discuss the healthrisks of those folk post WLS who are now suffering from the vit and mineral defiencies because they do not absorb them at the same rate from diet and supplements as those WLS folk do so they have to undergo IV drips even yrs later of vits and minerals several times a yr

[BamaGal]

CHLuke....you increase your risk of death long term from having WLS...

the stats the surgeons give are for immediate post op---they do not take into account the long term death stats.....


I read your jpournal entry---before you go so far as to have the surgery---read about the other side---the dark side that the surgeons do not tell---you have to remember they are out to make money just like any diet plan---but WLS is a diet you can't walk away from....

Read Junkfood Science

• Special: Bariatric surgery — the most life-altering decision you'll ever make
• Unprecedented campaign to force insurers to cover bariatric procedures
• When scares become deadly — weighing the actual risks of dying of obesity
• Selling an elective surgery
• Why we never hear, why people don't talk and why people don't want to know...
• Rumor versus facts
• Note from Dani
• Losing more than expected
• Was this really proof that bariatric surgeries save lives?
• The latest research on actual deaths seen after surgery for weight loss
• Show Biz Medicine (bariatrics in teens)
• The other side of the story Part one, Part Two

I know what it is like to be morbidly obese and want to do anything to get the weight off---but what was my reasoning---was it because of health issues---being over weight is actually better for your health than being thin

no I fell into that trap that being thin was the end all be all of life...

let me share with you what WLS has done for me....and I follow a very strict regiment of supplements also..

I've broken several ribs and toes, I am now diagnosed with fibromyalgia and mitral valve prolapse, osteoporosis, I have night blindness and am grounded from driving, I have to spend an entire day at the Hematologists office each month for IV iron infusions, all my teeth are crumbling, these are just a few things....

check out the yahoo support group site Sandy mentions on her blog---WLS Gone Wrong

better yet read this release form for WLS

I lost weight---but I was in better health at 375 than I am now---you would do much better with following a good low carb high fat eating plan--that was my way of eating after my surgery---too bad I didn't find low carb BEFORE I had myself gut whacked

[coolhandluke]

I appreciate the links and will read them. The only thing that is frustrating with them is that they are all to the same blog and she keeps talking about studies and facts but has no footnotes or links for me to see the actually studies ect..

I would really like to see these studies on death rates and other facts and numbers she quotes if you know where I could I would appreciate it.

When I went for my consultation the mortality rates they quoted for there patients were no where near these numbers. They gave me 1,3,5,10 and 15 year results for weight loss mortality and regain of all their patients.

The 1 year was 0.0024% and the 15 year mortality was still less then 1% and that took into consideration death by any cause.

I went to Henry Ford Hosptial for my tests ect.

I don't think I will be approved anyway because the only health issues I have is chronic bad back and arthritis. My blood work came back fine and there is no sign of any of the deseases associated with obesity.

[2big4mysize]

coolhandluke do you know things that are in a different colored type in a blog can be a link to what is being talked about? if you go to the Junkfood Science: JFS Special: The latest research on actual deaths seen after surgery for weight loss

page and click on the word study you get a copy of that study

[coolhandluke]

Originally Posted by 2big4mysize

coolhandluke do you know things that are in a different colored type in a blog can be a link to what is being talked about? if you go to the Junkfood Science: JFS Special: The latest research on actual deaths seen after surgery for weight loss

page and click on the word study you get a copy of that study

Yesh I tried that and it links me to another one of her blogs

Arch Surg -- Abstract: Death Rates and Causes of Death After Bariatric Surgery for Pennsylvania Residents, 1995 to 2004, October 2007, Omalu et al. 142 (10): 923
Ok I found the penns study thanks

[coolhandluke]

OK here is somthing to think about too I am not trying to be a wls advocate in anyway but these are studies from almost 10 years ago about patients who had the surgeries years before that. This is also mentioned

"Conclusions There was a substantial excess of deaths owing to suicide and coronary heart disease. Careful monitoring of bariatric surgical procedures and more intense follow-up could likely reduce the long-term case fatality rate in this patient population. "

These are deaths that have changed much of the WLS after care in the last 20 years. There are serious mental stability tests before and treatment after at Henry Ford Hospital. Also I would think the coronarty heart disease would be a result of the obesity and not the surgery.

Again I am no advocate or anything and am willing to read any and all information you guys can offer

[BamaGal]

Luke---there are no real log term studies on WLS--even the doc who invented the RNY is against it now---

heart disease is actualy less frequent in folks who are overweight

Sandy has some more things on the Obesity Paradox in the sidebar of her blog---she always links to the studies--most studies have to be purchased to read the full thing---which Sandy does

did you read the other side part one and two---that guy has a blog himslef where he talks about his journey

on my blog I talk about the protein requirements after WLS

on that post you will find a word doc to download called Gastric Bypass Surgery the Untold Story

come join us in the WLS gone wrong area

why not put off surgery and give yourself ample time to try a low carb approach.....it is the best thing for you....

[Stargazey]

Originally Posted by BamaGal

CHLuke....you increase your risk of death long term from having WLS...

the stats the surgeons give are for immediate post op---they do not take into account the long term death stats.....


I read your jpournal entry---before you go so far as to have the surgery---read about the other side---the dark side that the surgeons do not tell---you have to remember they are out to make money just like any diet plan---but WLS is a diet you can't walk away from....



I lost weight---but I was in better health at 375 than I am now---you would do much better with following a good low carb high fat eating plan--that was my way of eating after my surgery---too bad I didn't find low carb BEFORE I had myself gut whacked

Coolhandluke, before you take this drastic step, please check out the maintainers on this board. Some of them are here: The Maintain Lane - Low Carb Friends

Others include AlliCat, Tooter, Sugarless4life and Fawn. Find their posts. Read their stories. I can tell you from personal experience (look at my stats) you can lose weight on Atkins and you can maintain the loss. And you will learn how to live a healthy lifestyle in the process.

Stargazey

[BobbiOh]

Originally Posted by NeGA

So... if post gastric patients have low calories, low fat, high protein, sip on water all day... how is that different from Kimkins?

There's actually a post somewhere on this board about a Kimkins member who spent days agonizing that she had popped a cherry tomato in her mouth while preparing her family's dinner. The approach to Kimkins was guilt, being berated, and being made to feel like a failure. It wasn't mentally healthy.

Kimkins consisted almost entirely protein with no supplement regimen other than "eat a vitamin". Even low carb vegetables were a no-no with the exception of a "finger pinch of salad". My friend that has had WLS ate a more balanced diet than that.

[Magicsmom]

On the WLS issue, I have a coworker who had WLS long before I went there to work. Today my boss and I were talking about it, and she told me that for a year after the surgery, they were watching her starve. She told me that my coworker lost a significant amount of hair and her color was horrible. So to say that WLS patients "thrive" on it doesn't exactly ring true to me. My coworker still suffers malnutrition because her body cannot properly absorb nutrients. It's a tough way to go, and people suffer rather than thriving.

Does anyone else find it strange that someone would come here and use the WLS patients as an example, considering how many times Heidi used that analogy?