Why the fascination with Kimmer? #17

[Amyb1569]

When I said I eat and gain..that is on KK. For me..my body was so use to so little that when I ate extra..even lower carb foods..my scale would jump up. It is almost like I went as low as I could go and my body expects me to stick to that every freaking meal. I know myself and I can not do that.
So I am going to do atkins and just not eat all the bacon in the store..the book never says that...I just wanted to hear that.
Dee..ya wanna try atkins?

[Sherrie_lc]

Originally Posted by Locarb4me

Yes, it does. Atkins was one of the original ketogenic diets. 20 or less carbs per day. In fact, Atkins 72 was almost or zero carbs to start with - very strict. As Dr. Atkins rewrote his diet plans over the years, it evolved a bit upward to 20 carbs during induction.



It is only true to the extent that while many of the foods are similar, Atkins allows more vegetables and more fat than Kimkins does. The closest thing out there to Kimkins that was published by an actual dieting authority was original Stillmans. Very spartan, very much like Kimkins. She just kept dropping the fat even from what Stillman's allowed, IIRC.

Remember, I'm from last summer when the Plan behind the Plan was clearly being taught and the original Kimkins food plans looked almost nothing like they do today.

Wasn't that stillmans plan she used only meant to be for 14 days not indefinitely like her diet?

[Tanner]

Originally Posted by LChottie07

Amy, guess it's catching!! I have posted my letter to Dee, as well as a few additional notes.

An Open Letter to Kimkins Members

Excellent LCH!

[Locarb4me]

Originally Posted by Sherrie_lc

Wasn't that stillmans plan she used only meant to be for 14 days not indefinitely like her diet?

I believe you're right. I don't think any of the low carb doctors intended for people to eat below 20 for extended periods of time, did they?

[2big4mysize]

Dr Atkins says you can but he qualifies it to if you have a large amount of weight to lose and in the pre death website it said if you feel healthy and had a lot of weight to lose.
with the carbs under 20 it is hard to get enough vits amd minerals even if you eat the healthiest choices you can possibly pick and most of us don't. We have favorite veggies and ususally pick that one lots of days.

[DEEDLYNN]

Amy.....I am thinking of cycling with ATKINS right now. I'm gonna try to pick up the book tomorrow and do some speed reading...LOL. I checked the forums to see how much I could find out tomorrow...but they are more support threads than someone actually breaking copyright laws and printing the book...(LOLOL).

And.....be nice guys....hold back....I know your gonna do it...(LMBO)...I do notice the same thing that Amy is talking about...If I cheat....I can gain 10 lbs over night. In fact, I even when in to our Biggest Loser challenge at work and weighed in....in 2 days...10 lbs heavier....I just looked at them....Hey...I don't know what happened. I know that I didn't eat 35,000 calories in 2 days, which is what would equal 10 lbs. LMAO--easy guys...easy....I know you wanna...but refrain....LOL.

[anipomoni]

Originally Posted by Locarb4me

Remember, I'm from last summer when the Plan behind the Plan was clearly being taught and the original Kimkins food plans looked almost nothing like they do today.

I think everyone needs to be careful about what we call "the plan behind the plan." The plan as written was only around 700 cals, IIRC. That's horrendous and I think it's being overlooked when we focus on how bad the PBTP is. It leaves the door open for people like Dee to say things like:

I have posted before....that if someone were consuming only 500 calories a day...then they had a responsibility to do something for their own health.

As if 500 is insane and taking it too far, but 700 is "responsible"???
(Not picking on you Dee, you just happen to be the most recent of many who posted things like this)

The real "plan behind the plan" was as close to zero as possible and it was taught directly by Kimmer herself.

[DEEDLYNN]

Didn't take it as picking ani-- that has always been a big point of mine was personal responsibility...including myself....which is why I'm out here educating myself right now.
Thanks!

[anipomoni]

Originally Posted by DEEDLYNN

I know that I didn't eat 35,000 calories in 2 days, which is what would equal 10 lbs.

This is Kimmers reasoning of what it takes to gain/lose weight. It's so much more complex than simple math (as you are finding out).

I am glad you are educating yourself Dee. Hopefully it can prevent you from doing the damage to yourself that many here are living with, including myself. And I never even did KK, but I was here back when Kimmer was spreading the love and I fell into the trap. So I am proof that you really can damage your metabolism to the point where you simply can not eat like a normal person. I've mentioned before, my 13 yr old, 140 lb sister can totally eat me under the table. I mean, I took her to Florida for a month last summer and she lived with me so we ate breakfast/lunch/dinner TOGETHER. She ate equal to more than what I would eat. That ain't normal!

[Magicsmom]

Originally Posted by Amyb1569

I am having a really hard night with eating tonight.
I think I am having a hard time getting back on track.
I know atkins works..but it is not easy to get back on plan.
Like I said before..I need to get some grab and go food....

Amy, please don't do what I did after KK. The plan made my already slow metabolism absolutely crawl and emotionally I totally rebelled against low carbing altogether. I proceeded to eat whatever I wanted for a year, and paid a big price. Think of the Atkins foods you love and fix them. Go through Linda Sue's website to find recipes. Many of them are induction friendly. You can do it!

Originally Posted by Amyb1569

When I said I eat and gain..that is on KK. For me..my body was so use to so little that when I ate extra..even lower carb foods..my scale would jump up. It is almost like I went as low as I could go and my body expects me to stick to that every freaking meal. I know myself and I can not do that. So I am going to do atkins and just not eat all the bacon in the store..the book never says that...I just wanted to hear that.
Dee..ya wanna try atkins?

That's what KK does to you. There's a thread in the ML about how to repair your metabolism. You might want to go read it.

Originally Posted by Sherrie_lc

Wasn't that stillmans plan she used only meant to be for 14 days not indefinitely like her diet?

Exactly! In fact, Dr. Stillman specifically said do NOT do the plan for more than 14 days because of the lack of fiber.

[Sherrie_lc]

Originally Posted by DEEDLYNN

In fact, I even when in to our Biggest Loser challenge at work and weighed in....in 2 days...10 lbs heavier....I just looked at them....Hey...I don't know what happened. I know that I didn't eat 35,000 calories in 2 days, which is what would equal 10 lbs. LMAO--easy guys...easy....I know you wanna...but refrain....LOL.

Its called water, water and more water!!!

The thing is when you enter ketosis you lose lots of fluid which mostly comes from your glycogen stores. When you eat carbohydrates, your body stores some of them within your muscles and liver. Each gram of carbohydrate, will store 3 or 4 times its weight in water a long with it. So, when you stop eating carbohydrates, eventually you use up the remaining carbohydrates you have stored within your glycogen stores and thus release a heck of a lot of water, starting around day 3 for most. When you stop and start eating carbs again, the first thing that happens, is these carbs go straight to your muscles and liver plus a little bit more, as your muscle's glycogen stores tend to hold more after a period of depletion.

This is what the initial weight regain is, it would have to be impossible or very close to, to regain 10lbs of fat in a couple of days. When you reach goal and want to shift to maintenance it is normal and necessary to allow an initial regain of a few pounds. There's nothing wrong with glycogen stores in a normally healthy person whom is active and slim, these stores will only serve to help them and give them strength, what you don't want is too much constant spillover from these stores.

[SMP]

Originally Posted by Amyb1569

I am having a really hard night with eating tonight.
I think I am having a hard time getting back on track.
I know atkins works..but it is not easy to get back on plan.
Like I said before..I need to get some grab and go food....

You can always start with raw , then gradually work through half-raw until you've got the time to cook food! Ummm, steak tartare . Or as my dear old Mammy would say - if it's still bleeding, I don't want it! (In fact, I know people who eat raw meat and claim it is easy on the digestion. I guess you can get used to it.I'd get used to not having dirty pots and pans REALLY quickly!)
I tried Intermittent Fasting for a month. Not worrying about eating became addictive, and I realized that I was developing an ED when I didn't feel like eating. I've started cooking again, too, Amy; so I understand your frustration.

[DEEDLYNN]

Sherri....thanks for the explaination...It makes sense to me.

[HoneyBee2]

Originally Posted by Madam De Leon

That's part of the problem. Whatever might be the posted food lists/diet plans on the site right now, it wasn't the same back when the WW article came out, and wasn't the same as what was in the WW article either.

I'm sure someone on here (probably HB - she seems to have screen shots of just about *everything*!) has dated screen shots of the various permutations of the plans - although they have gone through changes since the lawsuit was brought against her, they are all still nutritionally bankrupt.

I think Bama beat me to it, and the veggie lists have changed as well as the quantity allowed from the lists in one of the modifications.

Originally Posted by Sweeteater

Is this old? I've seen/read this somewhere before it seems like, a few months ago...but, where?

It reminds me of the Kimkins "guy" Derrick who had a great weight loss, but didn't post until after he lost like 100 pounds. I had posted his comments her and his pics too. Remember the guy whose after pic was the exact same pic as his before, but it was photoshopped? His whole body was in the exact same position in the before and after.
In other words a sockpuppet that Heidi was using. Another lie....
BTW- He is the one who used dollop too!

Originally Posted by NancyElle

THIS is your Brain on BUTTER!

Originally Posted by v0xhumana

Always wanted this on a shirt:

I gotta get me one of them shirts!

[Tooter]

Originally Posted by Sherrie_lc

???? Now granted I am not American and have no experience with these products what so ever so I could be totally wrong but I just googled all three of them and they are ALL lean proteins, turkey pepperoni 70% less fat then real pepperoni which was 2g fat for a stick or 4g for 14 slices!!! turkey sausage links 60% less which was the highest, I think 7g fat for 3 links, woopeedoo. Stallone pudding I saw 2g fat on one link and 0g on another!!!

And I'd hate to think the extra crap they put in them to make them edible, I couldn't find an ingredient list *sigh*

Dee I am going to be honest, you're still eating very low fat and calories imo and personally I think Dr Atkins would roll in his grave if he saw that menu given out as an Atkins menu.

I am trying to make this point simply because for the longest time people would justify the kimkins diet as being just like Atkins and NO it is not and neither is your menu. And I know you're not saying that Dee and I'm not having a go at anyone but I can just picture how some will interpret comments on your menu being an Atkins menu.

I also want to make a point on one reason why eating this way is a bad idea that I don't see discussed here much because it is usually about eating disorders or metabolism which is part of it, but not all. Diets like these can cause and aggravate depression for various reasons such as very low calories, low fat, deprivation and low levels of important nutrients as a result. Not only that, they can trigger/aggravate psychosis, it's really not something you should do particularly for an extended period of time when this will be even more likely to happen.

I hope you do experiment with some of Cleos yummy recipes because you really could use adding more real foods to your menu and she has some really scrummy ideas on how to get them in.

Sherri, you have had some really GOOD posts!

Ok, I just want to "Throw" something out there.

At the time that Kimmer was here...People were doing "Atkins" but doing their own tweaks to it. It's almost like they were apologizing for doing "Atkins". If they claimed to be doing "Atkins" they would say something like "But I don't eat a pound of butter and 2 pounds of bacon a day". Hell, I was even guilty of this. Atkins was a dirty word and Fat was still very much thought of as bad.

I didn't think I was scared of fat, but I did limit it. Not to the point of Kimkins or those menus...but I have to admit I did.

Like Bamagal (By the way I love your blog) I did the experiment of really Up'ing my fat. BOY did that get rid of any fear of fat. I now eat a High Fat, Moderate protein and low carb diet. TRULY, it's AMAZING!! I don't think many people realize that Fat truly is an important nutrient!!!

Why am I bringing this up? Well, I think this is the reason that Kimmer and her Diet Thrived here. There were so many people doing their own Thing, and so many people who still were scared of fat. Who felt the need to apologize for any amount of fat in their diet. Everyone was still, pretty much, brain washed from the Media. Not all, but alot.

My Attitude at the time was, "What ever, to each his own". Others defended it, even though they didn't do her diet, because they too were scared of Fat.

Atkins has gotten a Dirty Name for YEARS!!

Anyways, Kimmer PLayed on this fear of Fat and the Fear of doing Real Atkins.

[OhYeahBabe]

Originally Posted by BamaGal

KIMKINS DIET
The original Kimkins Diet


As much lean protein as desired from the Kimkins Food List
0-20 total carbs per day(no fiber or sugar alcohol subtraction)
0-3 cups List 1 veggies per day OR
0-2 cups List 1 veggies + 0-1 cup List 2 veggies per day
Use minimal fat to make your menu work (careful, calories count!)
No alcohol or low carb products (sugar free candy, energy bars, ice cream, frozen meals)
Your appetite will reduce naturally after 3-5 days
Take a complete multivitamin each day plus other desired supplements


KIMMER EXPERIMENT (K/E)
K/E is used to reach ketosis quickly or as a jumpstart for other Kimkins Options


As much lean protein as desired from the Kimkins Food List
Minimal low-carb condiments and spices may be used sparingly
No alcohol, no cheese, no fatty meats, no fats, no veggies
Your appetite will drop naturally after 3-5 days
Take a complete multivitamin each day plus other desired supplements
You may remain on K/E as long as desired

KIMKINS BOOT CAMP
The most popular Kimkins Option!
30 minutes of intense daily exercise required


Breakfast
Up to 2 eggs (cooked without fat)
Up to 1/2 cup List 2 veggies
Up to 2 oz lean ham or other lean protein (raw/cured weight)
Unlimited non-calorie beverage

Lunch
Up to 4 oz lean protein (raw weight)
Up to 2 cups mixed greens + Wishbone Spritzer dressing (or caloric equivalent)
Unlimited non-calorie beverage

Dinner
Up to 4 oz lean protein (raw weight)
Up to 2 cups mixed greens + Wishbone Spritzer dressing (or caloric equivalent)
Unlimited non-calorie beverage

Take a complete multivitamin each day plus other desired supplements

VEGETARIAN OPTION
Vegetarian products have higher carbs so a calorie limit is suggested
Aim for no more than 1000 calories per day

Daily Limits


0-20 total carbs from all sources, no fiber subtraction
0-3 servings of protein substitutes including tofu, eggs, egg substitutes, protein powders
0-2 servings of higher carb choices including tempeh, Gardenburger and Boca products
0-2 servings of dairy choices including yogurt, soft cheese, hard cheese
0-3 cups of List 1 veggies
0-1 cups of List 2 veggies

Use minimal fat for cooking
Unlimited non-calorie beverages
A serving is per the product label
Use low calorie salad dressings and "light" butter substitutes (no trans fats)
Take a complete multivitamin each day plus other desired supplements
Due to higher carbs in vegetarian products, appetite reduction may not occur


MEAL REPLACEMENT SHAKE OPTION
Designed for convenience, automatic portion control and error proof


Up to 800 calories per day
Up to 16 total carbs per day
Up to 80 protein grams per day
0-4 RTD (Ready-to-Drink) meal replacements shakes per day or
0-4 homemade protein shakes per day (15+ grams protein per shake)


RTD shakes should not exceed 200 calories and 4 carbs each
Protein powder should not exceed 200 calories and 4 carbs per serving
Protein powder may be mixed with any very low calorie beverage
Do not use milk for mixing protein powder
You may prefer to have 2 shake meals + 1 Kimkins food meal for variety
Take a complete multivitamin each day plus other desired supplements


Kimkins Cycling Option
Perfect for members who want more variety

Week 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 ...
Choose your favorite Kimkins Diet and be strict!

Week 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 ...
Choose your favorite low calorie or low carb diet and be strict!
Pick your favorite diets and alternate weekly.
You may want to pick a different Kimkins Diet for each "Kimkins" week.
Take a complete multivitamin each day plus other desired supplements.

MEAL REPLACEMENTS & SNACKS
No other substitutions!

* Low carb protein shakes (1-4 carbs) as a meal replacement

* Stallone brand protein pudding as a meal replacement
* Dannon Carb & Sugar Control yogurt (3 carb brand, limit 1 per day)
* Part skim string cheese (limit 1 per day)
* Sugar free gelatin (limit 4 oz per day, no whipped topping)
* Homemade or purchased sugar free popsicle


BEVERAGES
Unlimited!

* Water (plain, flavored, mineral, anything 0 calorie)
* Coffee & Teas (artificial sweeteners OK, no regular creamers)
* 0 Calorie Energy Drinks
* Crystal Light
* Diet soft drinks

So it looks like the meal replacements section has changed some - string cheese doesn't say as a meal replacement any more, but stallone pudding is. I also highlighted some of the most dangerous features of the diet, to show some things have not changed. I also removed the food list part for length.

[Locarb4me]

Good morning, Hidey. Isn't it mighty early out there in Corona?

Thanks for the link. I needed a good chuckle to start the day with

[mrsmenopausal]

Originally Posted by CrispyBread

check this out

Hey, check THIS out:
#3078
Oh, and this, too, #3085

Slow day at KK, dear?

[BamaGal]

Originally Posted by anipomoni

I am glad you are educating yourself Dee. Hopefully it can prevent you from doing the damage to yourself that many here are living with, including myself. And I never even did KK, but I was here back when Kimmer was spreading the love and I fell into the trap. So I am proof that you really can damage your metabolism to the point where you simply can not eat like a normal person. I've mentioned before, my 13 yr old, 140 lb sister can totally eat me under the table. I mean, I took her to Florida for a month last summer and she lived with me so we ate breakfast/lunch/dinner TOGETHER. She ate equal to more than what I would eat. That ain't normal!

yes it is normal...

teenagers have a very high metabolism rate since they are growing and changing....here's a good post by Dr Eades about that

Originally Posted by Tooter

Like Bamagal (By the way I love your blog) I did the experiment of really Up'ing my fat. BOY did that get rid of any fear of fat. I now eat a High Fat, Moderate protein and low carb diet. TRULY, it's AMAZING!! I don't think many people realize that Fat truly is an important nutrient!!!

Why am I bringing this up? Well, I think this is the reason that Kimmer and her Diet Thrived here. There were so many people doing their own Thing, and so many people who still were scared of fat. Who felt the need to apologize for any amount of fat in their diet. Everyone was still, pretty much, brain washed from the Media. Not all, but alot.

My Attitude at the time was, "What ever, to each his own". Others defended it, even though they didn't do her diet, because they too were scared of Fat.

Atkins has gotten a Dirty Name for YEARS!!

Anyways, Kimmer PLayed on this fear of Fat and the Fear of doing Real Atkins.

thanks

great points too---so many people even those who follow a low carb plan still fall for the "fat is bad" (especially saturated) dogma and "oh my cholesterol levels"...

when you shouldn't be worried about either.....


Dee--one of the best treatments that they have found to help with an ED is the use of a ketogenic diet(very high fat)--on of the many ED bloggers out there had links to the studies---here's the link to her blog post

It like Dr McCleary points out in his book---fat and cholesterol are good for the brain

ever hear the saying fish is brain food---hello--mucho grande amount of Omega 3's there folks

I still like Regina's post the 5 Simple Rules

here's another good post of hers

I understand your your thinking that KK is fine if you up your calories--but eating lean like that your calories are gonna be way too low for your body

you are a lifetime yoyo dieter, just like I was---you have to heal your body then lose the weight in a more healthy way...you also have stated that KK is like the diet they gave you after your lap band---well I had WLS and I lost my weight with Atkins---I was eating well over 2000 cals a day--I was grazing all day long--I didn't believe in the whole head hunger vs real hunger---when I was hungry I ate--I lost 200+ pounds

now I find out even 2000 cals a day was not enough--my nutritional status is in the toilet so I am now doing 5 shakes a day plus eating mega calories to heal myself---am I gaining--yeah---is it going through the roof---nope--I've finally leveled off----but the old 30 years with an ED makes me cringe when the weight comes back on---I just make myself eat---I even set a timer to eat no less than every 2 hours

I wish you the best on your journey---just make it a healthy on and remember---the number on the scale does not define you as a person---don't let that hunk of metal dictate your entire self worth--which is something too many women do in our society

[BamaGal]

Originally Posted by Locarb4me