Why the fascination with Kimmer? #16

[Madam De Leon]

Originally Posted by thetruthinhiding

It is hard coming from KK to get used to higher calories, but KK is so low in fat which is more dense in calories, you could eat a LOT of lean protein before you reached 1600, but it doesn't take tons of fat to get to the 1600 calories being talked about.

If you do some very quick calculations, you might be surprised at how little food 1600 calories is:

25 g carbs - 100 calories
100 g protein - 400 calories (you need more protein than KK ever allowed, since you're relying on protein to convert to the needed glucose)

That's only 500 calories, but you're going to have sufficient fats to make sure you get all your EFA's, your skin smooth and supple, your hair shiny and thick, etc.

So... 1100 calories would be fats, or about 122 g, which is the equivalent of about 12 T of fats. But remember some of those fats will already be in the foods you eat, rather than added. It's not like you're going to glob 3/4 cup of lard on your plate and chow down!

(BTW these are all approximate amounts, not hard and fast fat grams, just giving a broad example here, so no crucifying me for being off by a gram or 3 here and there, ok?)

For instance, each egg you eat with the yolk intact will have 5 g fat. So have 2 eggs scrambled in 1 T of butter for breakfast and you've got 20 g of fat right there. Add in a couple pieces of sausage for another 15 g fat - that gives you 35 so far for the day.

For lunch you might have a hamburger between a couple of oopsie rolls - with 1 T mayo among your LC condiments: 40 g fat

Then with dinner, have full fat dressing on your salad (2 T dressing = about 10 g fat), butter on your broccoli (1 T butter - about 10 g fat), and chicken with the skin (10 g), for a total of 30 g fat.

That only gives us 105 g fat for the day so far, and all you really added in the way of fat was 1 T butter at breakfast, 1 T mayo at lunch, 2 T salad dressing and 1 T butter at dinner.

You're still under for the day though, so you can use the other 15 g fat for a high fat dessert - How about 3 T of heavy cream, whipped with 2 tsp of unsweetened cocoa powder and the artificial sweetner of your choice? Sounds incredibly decadent, right? But it's only another 15 g of fat, and ooooh sooooooo satisfying!

[thetruthinhiding]

Yep, that is exactly what I was driving at. Well Said, madam and 2big. I'm no expert on this stuff, but I do read everything I can get my hands on and I am familiar with the post-kimkins mindset. I struggle with it myself.

[Madam De Leon]

Originally Posted by thetruthinhiding

Yep, that is exactly what I was driving at.

Yeah, I see your post now

Took me a long time to do all that figuring and typing (slow typist here... lots and lots of mistakes, backspacing, typing over, etc. ), so there were lots of posts in between when I started to type and finally posted.

[NancyElle]

A high fat, low carb diet is the BEST way to go if you suffer from menopause, peri-menopause, or problems with your monthly cycle. Good fats will help regulate you and keep your skin glowing!

DON'T SKIP FAT! Make sure it's good fat like olive oil, real butter, coconut oil, real mayo and the like.

I had to retrain myself after many years of eating low fat (remember Snackwells???) I mus'tve eaten my weight in those darn chemical laden concoctions!

[Madam De Leon]

Originally Posted by NancyElle

OMG! LindaSue actually added my pizza crust to her recipe site.
I saw it on her "updates page".

Hope everyone is having a great Tuesday!

Congrats, Nancy!

It sounds like a wonderful pizza crust - I need to give it a try sometime!

[HoneyBee2]

Originally Posted by 2big4mysize

..[..]...so Atkins 1600 cals would shed fat at the same rate as a USDA high carb 1280 cal plan if all other things were equal( like the amount of exercise you did) now does that 1600 cals look too high?

An excellent way to give me perspective! My honest feeling was 1200 was right for me to lose at a sloooooooow rate, but I am going to be using exercise too, to help me along. So that helps to put me in the correct frame of mind to see the calorie intake phrased that way showing that Atkins at 1600 cals would be close to the higher carb 1280 plan.
You know, I realize that low carb is the only way for me to lose without going to extremes, and how the very low calories is not the way to go, but seeing that 1600 calories in print still causes me problems.

Originally Posted by 2big4mysize

...[...]...HB give it a try and if you have issues read chapter 20 for the metabolically resistant folk assuming you have seen your doc to be sure your thyroid is functioning and you don't have sdome other defiency

Yep, waiting on thyroid labs and I am doing genotropin injections, which have helped so much with the muscle loss and probably saved me from more muscle loss from doing Kimkins. I also am using a prescribed testosterone creme and that has helped with energy and muscle mass too.
That 50 pounds I lost in less than two months on kimkins doesn't look nearly as good now. Especially, when you can guess that a lot of it was muscle mass.

Originally Posted by thetruthinhiding

Yes, I was talking about the volume, more than responding to you or HB. Just in general, one thing KK people sometimes say "I couldn't eat all that food" or "I couldn't eat all that fat." HB has been out of KK long enough, that that is not her point, I know, but I extrapolated a bit to include others who would make that point. My point to those folks, who might be reading, is that is really isn't that much. You need the fat.

Hey, being a gal who was in college in the 90's low fat was drilled into our heads, as we feasted on baked potatoes...eeek, with nonfat sour cream, nonfat cheese and lowfat margarine! Those were also the days of pasta with chicken and Italian nonfat dressing. What were we thinking?!?!?
I remember I about fainted when I saw my boyfriend's (who is now my husband) fridge with the real butter, real sour cream and real cheese.
When he cooked something in butter I remember saying "No, wonder people like this real stuff."
I have been out of KK since September, but I still hit a brick wall -mentally and physically-when it comes to increasing caloric intake.
Something I have been working on.

Nancy Elle- Snackwells!!! Oh, yes those and low fat frozen yogurt were the desserts of choice!

Originally Posted by NancyElle

OMG! LindaSue actually added my pizza crust to her recipe site.
I saw it on her "updates page".

Hope everyone is having a great Tuesday!

Kewl news Nancy Elle-about your recipe being added and I hope your Tuesday is a good one too!

[thetruthinhiding]

Originally Posted by thetruthinhiding

Call it an educated guess. But I is very edumacated.

We have Gary's phone number if anyone wants to ask him if it was him.

No takers on Gary, "vatefairefoutrelol"'s, phone number. How about his address?

Jeanessa, does John have that info yet? I'll send it when I get a chance.

[HoneyBee2]

Originally Posted by Madam De Leon

If you do some very quick calculations, you might be surprised at how little food 1600 calories is:

25 g carbs - 100 calories
100 g protein - 400 calories (you need more protein than KK ever allowed, since you're relying on protein to convert to the needed glucose)

That's only 500 calories, but you're going to have sufficient fats to make sure you get all your EFA's, your skin smooth and supple, your hair shiny and thick, etc.

So... 1100 calories would be fats, or about 122 g, which is the equivalent of about 12 T of fats. But remember some of those fats will already be in the foods you eat, rather than added. It's not like you're going to glob 3/4 cup of lard on your plate and chow down!

(BTW these are all approximate amounts, not hard and fast fat grams, just giving a broad example here, so no crucifying me for being off by a gram or 3 here and there, ok?)

For instance, each egg you eat with the yolk intact will have 5 g fat. So have 2 eggs scrambled in 1 T of butter for breakfast and you've got 20 g of fat right there. Add in a couple pieces of sausage for another 15 g fat - that gives you 35 so far for the day.

For lunch you might have a hamburger between a couple of oopsie rolls - with 1 T mayo among your LC condiments: 40 g fat

Then with dinner, have full fat dressing on your salad (2 T dressing = about 10 g fat), butter on your broccoli (1 T butter - about 10 g fat), and chicken with the skin (10 g), for a total of 30 g fat.

That only gives us 105 g fat for the day so far, and all you really added in the way of fat was 1 T butter at breakfast, 1 T mayo at lunch, 2 T salad dressing and 1 T butter at dinner.

You're still under for the day though, so you can use the other 15 g fat for a high fat dessert - How about 3 T of heavy cream, whipped with 2 tsp of unsweetened cocoa powder and the artificial sweetner of your choice? Sounds incredibly decadent, right? But it's only another 15 g of fat, and ooooh sooooooo satisfying!

Thanks Madam you are rawking today with the information!

Originally Posted by thetruthinhiding

Yep, that is exactly what I was driving at. Well Said, madam and 2big. I'm no expert on this stuff, but I do read everything I can get my hands on and I am familiar with the post-kimkins mindset. I struggle with it myself.

It's a "beatch" too!
I have gained 5 pounds back since quitting Kimkins, but I have been actively limiting myself too much. But when you go from the very low calories of kk, then even 1200 feels like a lot. So I have been doing the increase in baby steps.

After doing Kimkins I just added coconut oil , real dressing, butter here or there, whole cream and olive oil back into my foods, thinking ok I'm done because I have some fat added back into things. ...Umm, wrong! I need to rework it all it seems because my calories are not high enough.

I can see others making this same mistake of just adding real dressing or a little butter while transitioning, thinking they are on the mark and finding that their calories are still too low.

This is why I think using that BMR can't be stressed enough for others leaving Kimkins and wanting to figure out where to start. Thanks for posting that Madam.

I need to do as others suggested and check out how I am getting my total calories in daily, as far as, protein, fats, and carbs.
I purposefully have been staying away from looking at dailyplate to break my menu down, because it had become too obsessive for me when I was doing Kimkins.
However, I think it is time to be accountable for how my menu is shaping up and see where I am making mistakes.

Thanks for the tips everyone!

[thetruthinhiding]

Just got this comment on my blog in response to the Laxative and Calorie PMs.

was a member when that magazine came out, lost my weight and still low carb today. KK was never 500 calories a day, KE either, in fact it was all the lean protein you wanted, maybe you have that confused with the bootcamp, or challenges some members started on the board that took the program to extreme? I also never SAW laxative use as listed as part of the diet, these are answers to people that inquired, she merely answered with her opinion, never said it was a professional one.
People shouldn’t ask if they don’t like the answer, then try to say it was part of the diet, that is an out right lie. I know that laxative use was NOT part of the diet. I certainly never used them. I also never only consumed 500 calories a day either.
Maybe you people have other agendas and are using extreme reporting.

My response:
Thanks Carol. We are not making this stuff up. Heidi said all of this. It was Heidi’s site and Heidi’s diet. These are her words, not ours. When people asked why they were not losing fast enough, Heidi invariably told them to cut calories further and often suggested the use of daily laxatives. She didn’t have a “professional opinion”, because she is not a professional; unless you count being a professional con-artist. Congrats on losing your weight with low carb, it is the way to go, but Kimkins isn’t a low carb diet: it is a low carb / low fat starvation diet. -T

IP traced to Japan. Funny how a normal former successful member would feel the need to conceal an IP address. Or could it have been a plant?

[thetruthinhiding]

Originally Posted by HoneyBee2

I can see others making this same mistake of just adding real dressing or a little butter while transitioning, thinking they are on the mark and finding that their calories are still too low.

It is probably true that a transition out of Kimkins this way will simply not work without addressing the damaged metabolism first. I too saw weight gain by just trying to transition into adding more fats. I'd like to hear more about how people that were on KK long enough to lose weight with it made successful transitions to continue or restart losing using accepted forms of *real* low carb dieting. But I'm sure it is out there somewhere if we look outside the FWK thread, but who has that kind of time?

[jo2621]

Originally Posted by thetruthinhiding

It is probably true that a transition out of Kimkins this way will simply not work without addressing the damaged metabolism first. I too saw weight gain by just trying to transition into adding more fats. I'd like to hear more about how people that were on KK long enough to lose weight with it made successful transitions to continue or restart losing using accepted forms of *real* low carb dieting. But I'm sure it is out there somewhere if we look outside the FWK thread, but who has that kind of time?

The transition to a normal low carb pre-maintanence has been difficult, both physically and mentally.

I gained some back and held it for a while but have been able to lose that again and lose a little more.

I posted some things for Amyb about it on this thread post #776, pg.26

[thetruthinhiding]

Originally Posted by jo2621

The transition to a normal low carb pre-maintanence has been difficult, both physically and mentally.

I gained some back and held it for a while but have been able to lose that again and lose a little more.

I posted some things for Amyb about it on this thread post #776, pg.26

Found it: Why the fascination with Kimmer? #16 For other's reference.

[BamaGal]

Something you need to make sure you are getting in enough protein

Jenny has a protein calculator on her low carb facts and figures site


following that wonderful advice Madam posted----use the BMR calculator---then figure up your Daily caloric needs----

dropping your calories to 15-25% below you Daily caloric needs then throw some exercise on top of it and you're good to go

now if you have had a restrictive/malabsorptive WLS like me---your protein needs are much higher than everyone else---ours have to be around 120-150gms a day---we only absorb 25-50% of what we take in depending on the length of the bypass---lucky me I fall into that higher category---that's the reason for my nutritional problems right now....


sorry OT---but I'm not the only RNY/Lapband/WLS who reads these threads....figured since we were talking nutrition today---I'd throw our pertinent info in the mix...

[HoneyBee2]

Originally Posted by thetruthinhiding

No takers on Gary, "vatefairefoutrelol"'s, phone number. How about his address?

Jeanessa, does John have that info yet? I'll send it when I get a chance.

Lawd no, not me- because the next thing you know it will be posted that I'm a killer bee, terrorist, who threatened Gary. Who will then claim he feared for his life and filed a police report that said I would force feed him greasy cheeseburgers or how 'bout French fries.

Oh my not worth the headache....Think SL and the resulting posts at Kimkins and here...I will just have to trust it is Gary.

[MNLisaB]

Originally Posted by jo2621

But do you think if she actually mixed MOM, epsom salts, ExLax, Smooth Move with diet Coke and enough Capt'n for a kick that might do the trick?

What should we call that one....

Turbo Lax

[2big4mysize]

HB are you trying to replace Cutie as the cause of everything cause it is beginning to look like everything happening now is your fault. jk

I feel for you former kkers cause y'all have in your head the memories of the kimkins.con weight loss and a funny thing about memory but it gets selective (just ask all the do over Atkineers who swear it was easier the first time and faster and no slowdowns either) so whenever you see scale numbers going the wrong way there is the tempation to do a few days of kimkins to get them off and then you will go back to fixing your metabolism, healing your body etc. Dr Atkins tempted folk with that fat fast thingie but it is so gross very few to quote Kimmer "want it bad enough" to last on it and mess themselves up like KKers do.

HB cal counting fear isn't just a kimkins thing either . Cleo has written on her blog about how this time she isn't even looking at the cal totals cause she will freak out and I can tell you having nudged her since fall of 04 not to look at cals but eat to satisfy hunger she has gone to cal counting and low cal counting in the past to lose weight. this time she is doing it right feeding her hunger no matter how many or how few cals it takes for that day and lookie at how well she is doing. since this is time number 4 at least for her she should be damaged goods but Atkins is working just fine with the higher fat eatting moderat proteins and healthy low glycemic index carbs.

[HoneyBee2]

Originally Posted by MNLisaB

Turbo Lax

Hey, did you just do your taxes online? lol
It was just sounding like Turbo Tax time.

2big- Thanks for all the great advice!
Yes, Ms. Cleo is working Atkins, that is for sure. I was just checking out her blog for the oopsie roll directions and read on the side ticker that she had lost 61+ pounds!

[thetruthinhiding]

Originally Posted by HoneyBee2

Lawd no, not me- because the next thing you know it will be posted that I'm a killer bee, terrorist, who threatened Gary. Who will then claim he feared for his life and filed a police report that said I would force feed him greasy cheeseburgers or how 'bout French fries.

Oh my not worth the headache....Think SL and the resulting posts at Kimkins and here...I will just have to trust it is Gary.

Ahhh, I was counting on you HB! Guess I'll just have to post it here.

[BamaGal]

Originally Posted by MNLisaB

Turbo Lax

[Madam De Leon]

Originally Posted by BamaGal

Something you need to make sure you are getting in enough protein

Jenny has a protein calculator on her low carb facts and figures site


following that wonderful advice Madam posted----use the BMR calculator---then figure up your Daily caloric needs----

dropping your calories to 15-25% below you Daily caloric needs then throw some exercise on top of it and you're good to go

now if you have had a restrictive/malabsorptive WLS like me---your protein needs are much higher than everyone else---ours have to be around 120-150gms a day---we only absorb 25-50% of what we take in depending on the length of the bypass---lucky me I fall into that higher category---that's the reason for my nutritional problems right now....


sorry OT---but I'm not the only RNY/Lapband/WLS who reads these threads....figured since we were talking nutrition today---I'd throw our pertinent info in the mix...

It's ok - it's not really OT, if you think about it.

We have lots of KK'ers coming to LCF looking for information, and FWK is going to be the first KK thread (Ok, the first 16 KK threads ) they come across on LCF, so