Why the fascination with Kimmer? #9

[2big4mysize]

Originally Posted by BamaGal

since most plastic surgery after extreme weight loss is deemed cosmetic---many people are opting to go to Brazil---the plastic surgery mecca---to have it done---it is cheaper than self paying here in the states--even for the extended hotel stay/flight/and surgery
those that I know who have gone this route were very pleased

me too didn't know what it was either and googled it and got brazillian personal support as one of the replies and was wondering like heck why y'all needed that

[susique333]

Ok, hubby just caught me making yummy noises and licking the monitor....

Originally Posted by Kisal

OFF TOPIC!!!

For those who can't access the Playground:

Gooey Butter Cake

1 (18.25-ounce) box yellow cake mix
1 egg
1/2 cup (1 stick) butter, melted

Filling

1 (8-ounce) package cream cheese, softened
2 eggs
1 teaspoon pure vanilla extract
1 (16-ounce) box confectioners' sugar
1/2 cup (1 stick) butter, melted

Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Lightly grease a 13x9x2-inch baking pan.

In the bowl of an electric mixer, combine cake mix, egg, and butter and mix well. Pat into the bottom of prepared pan and set aside.

Still using an electric mixer, beat cream cheese until smooth; add eggs and vanilla. Dump in confectioners' sugar and beat well. Reduce speed of mixer and slowly pour in butter. Mix well.

Pour filling onto cake mixture and spread evenly. Bake for 40 to 50 minutes. Don't be afraid to make a judgment call on the cooking time, because oven temperatures can vary. You want the center to be a little gooey, so don't bake it past that point!

Remove from oven and allow to cool completely. Cut into squares. Just remember that these wonderful little cakes are very, very rich, and a little will go a long way-even for piggies like me!

Pumpkin Gooey: This variation has to be at the top of my list, especially around Thanksgiving. For the cake part, I sometimes use a spice cake mix. I have even used a chocolate cake mix, but I think my favorite is the basic yellow cake mix. Follow the original recipe, adding a 15-ounce can of pumpkin pie filling and an extra egg to the cream cheese filling. Bake as usual, remove from oven, and allow to cool. Cut into squares and top each square with a pecan half. Serve with a dollop of fresh whipped cream. I promise you'll never want pumpkin pie again!

Pineapple Gooey: Add a 20-ounce can of drained crushed pineapple and an extra egg to the cream cheese filling. Proceed as directed above.

Lemon Gooey: Use a lemon cake mix in place of the yellow cake. Add the juice (approximately 1/4 cup) and zest of 2 lemons to the cream cheese filling. Proceed: as directed above.

Carrot Cake Gooey: Use a spice cake mix, and add 1 cup chopped nuts and 1 1/2 cup finely grated carrots to the cream cheese filling. Proceed as directed above.

Peanut Butter Gooey: Use a chocolate cake mix. Add 1 cup creamy peanut butter and an extra egg to cream cheese filling. You can sprinkle the top of batter with 1 cup chopped peanuts if you like. Proceed as directed above.

Chocolate Chip Gooey: Use either yellow or chocolate cake mix. Sprinkle 1 cup chocolate chips and 1 cup chopped nuts on top of filling. Proceed as directed above.

Banana Gooey: Use a yellow cake mix. Prepare cream cheese filling as directed, beating in 2 ripe bananas and an extra egg. Proceed as directed above.

Nutty Gooey: Use a yellow cake mix, and add 1 cup chopped nuts to the cake mixture. Proceed as directed above.

Chippy Gooey: Stir 1 cup white chocolate chips, peanut butter chocolate chips, butterscotch morsels, Heath Almond Toffee Bits or Heath Milk Chocolate Toffee Bits into filling. Proceed as directed above.

[HoneyBee2]

Wow, it appears I was late to the discussion. As the saying goes... Give someone enough rope.....
I am curious to if it will be spun as my fault or someone else's fault yet again....or yet even better a Victim now.

Originally Posted by Arbah

Ok, Lets do the point for point reply:

Hello Arbah,
Yes, Let us do this point by point because it does point out facts that you clearly have not addressed.

Originally Posted by Arbah

[...]Unless you are saying there is a "Peggy Colson" and a "Peggy Colton", both directly linked to the Kimmer Saga, [..] Since I think 2 of them is highly unlikely, they/she are the same link.

I am saying there is *no* Peggy
ColSON correctly linked to the saga.
If you are still confused as to why I pointed out the difference then reread my comment. My reference to ignore someone who comes in now saying "What about Peggy ColTON" is because that is truly the correct name. If someone said "What about Peggy ColSON" I would say they have been reading incorrect information from Jimmy Moore's site. The name is not the same name and would make a difference for those searching information under that person's name (ie. different public records).

Originally Posted by Arbah

[..] you seemed to be one with the info for someone new to this whole Kimmer Story, so

Again, I never tried to hide when I became active in exposing the fraud. The difference is not when we both became involved here on the boards. The difference is to me clearly the fact that your input in this thread *now* upon reflection of your posts does seem to me more of a "fishing" for facts rather than stating them. I do have tons of information and have shared them with those that needed those files.

Originally Posted by Arbah

I followed some of the links in your posts, ie: Fascination thread #8, post # 1537, blogging tips for the revolution, which has a direct reference to Jimmy Moore..[..]

You know Arbah you are now starting to annoy me with implying that it was me that led you to report back incorrect posts. Why not quote me where I did such a thing or provide links? I think it is because then it would be even more clear that what you are saying is a stretch at best.
You said what said and went wherever you went to get the wrong information then tried to somehow make it make doing. To admit you recalled incorrectly in your state of defensiveness would be taking the high road, but since you chose another path of still attempting to make me responsible for your actions here you go.
In your first post you stated that I sent you JM's blog personally. -Quote-"after going to the sites and blogs YOU sent me to read all about the Kimkins stuff".
So now after I posted exactly how those events occurred- with me only giving you links to the bbc, petition, FTC, etc..Linkand also showing that you stated then -Quote-"I googled Jimmy Moore and followed a link to his blog." Link
you are trying to say that I still somehow lead you to Jimmy Moore?
That is so absurd in how your story has changed from saying you googled Jimmy Moore, to I gave you links to blogs and sites personally, to ok now you read some of my previous posts that linked to antikimkins and the Kimkins controversy and there were links there.

Next it will be that if you happened to take out every third word's letter in one of my posts they formed the word Jimmy Moore and thus I was sending some subliminal message to *you* to go to there and read about Peggy ColSON. I mean geesh...
Why, don't you just admit that you jumped in here Friday assuming I was referring to you and attempted to accuse and quote me incorrectly.?

Originally Posted by Arbah

Fasc #4, Post #486, link to Kimkins Controversy. All have links going to Jimmy Moore's blogs, and then I googled his name...[...]

See above for my comments on what I think about how you found JM's site. The fact is I didn't give you the link as you stated in your post Friday when you stated that I did.
Anything else you say about it is just noise or rather back pedaling words.

Originally Posted by Arbah

"Do I have to keep popping in......", well, do I?? If I have something to say, I darn sure will say it. Otherwise...

I never posted anything about you until you misunderstood my initial post here on Friday and attempted to make it some personal attack.

Otherwise what? Otherwise you won't post or if you do you will blame others for your actions and imply they lead you to post incorrect information??
Again that is up to you if or how you participate in this thread or any other, but if you come here or elsewhere quoting me incorrectly then I am going to call you on it.

Originally Posted by Arbah

"Devil's Advocate" ?? Sure, could be. I have had good results without any problems with Kimkins until the day I was banned just for asking about the success pictures, and being banned from my lifetime membership ticked me off, which is what sent me here.

So to be clear you reasoning for your posts, that I linked in the post you are responding to now "point by point", is that you were playing Devil's Advocate? That was the purpose for each one? Because your post reads as if you were upset at kimkins for the banning so why come here and defend or present the other side to each point others brought up?

Originally Posted by Arbah

Since coming to this site, I have joined a challenge group to continue my weight loss successfully, How are you doing with yours? If you are spending all your time on the "takedown" and none on yourself personally, perhaps Kimmer has already won. At some point we all have to take responsibility for ourselves.

You asking me about my weight loss is *not* out of polite concern or even one to get us on topic. It was done as an attempt to make a jab at me somehow, because I have not posted on that topic much.
However, when I made the statement in my post "I know that you have successfully switched to induction and that is great, so hopefully that has helped you adjust." it was in support. In fact if you notice I had said that I had not commented on your previous posts that seemed questionable in nature because I thought you were going through a time of confusion based on leaving kimkins and that WOE.
Now to me that is support, because I didn't want to question or attack you or anyone who were already dealing with the challenge of adjusting their WOE.

So as far as my weight loss success since leaving Kimkins mine is not as impressive as your report of eight pounds after the first 14 days of adding fat and calories to your previous kimkins WOE, but thank you for your concern. Very impressive job, I must say. I am sure the staff at Kimkins can take pointers on how to improve kimkins. Now, that was not meant as support, but as snark.

Originally Posted by Arbah

Have I explained myself satisfactorily?

Oh yes! You have and in more ways than you know.
So Arbah, I am so glad that you responded because I now have a better understanding of what type of person you are and your intentions.
Even though your post didn't do much but make a different excuse on how you got to JM's site, but still tried to say it was my doing. You didn't just say you misquoted in your post.
You then proceeded to avoided commenting on why you made the posts you did, besides playing devil's advocate. Really, for each one?
Then tried to be sarcastic in your concern for my dieting or my well-being.
But I do think your post did explain a tremendous amount about you.

Originally Posted by Arbah

I tried to listen to Jeanessa, and answer your post in a nonconfrontational manner. How did I do?

That is not for me to say since I would be biased. However, I respond to people the way I see fit not based on others. (TOS, and board guidelines excluded) Your words are yours and so are your actions.[/quote]

Maybe you need to live by some of your own advice that you just tried to give me in a snarky manner...and to quote you....
"At some point we all have to take responsibility for ourselves."

Originally Posted by Arbah

Oh, my screen name. I'm sure you already googled it and there are thousands of pages with references from the Bible to Isreal, but in my case, it is my name.

So you name is your screen name? What was it at Kimkins? Mine was HoneyBee. You are correct I did google it and it actually does have many meanings, but I was interested in its meaning to you.

Just as a note on those confused or wondering about the Peggy Colton vs Colson discussion here is the information I forwarded to John Tiedt and others:
Peggy Colton- It was reported that Peggy Colson was an alias of Kimmer’s based on the information that Jimmy proved in his blog saying that the number he called for Kimmer’s podcast interview belonged to a Peggy Colson. This was incorrect.
After searching the phone number he gave (951)278-8203 it appears that number actually belongs to a Peggy Colton.
Peggy Colton Phone book search of 951-278-8203
Peggy Colton (951) 278-8203 741 Via De Luna,Corona, CA 92882

Now note the phone number of Peggy Colton is also the number listed for Nikki Sharp in the Kimkins press release and Dennis Sharp.

[2big4mysize]

that isn't the low carb version maybe it is a good thing y'all can't see it

[Cutie]

Originally Posted by CarolynF

Here you go, Cheryl:

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/be...ooey-cake.html

yum! thanks carolyn!

(my apologies to those who'd rather i'd not brought up this topic )

[This time]

Originally Posted by HoneyBee2

Wow, it appears I was late to the discussion. As the saying goes... Give someone enough rope.....
I am curious to if it will be spun as my fault or someone else's fault yet again.


Hello Arbah,
Yes, Let us do this point by point because it does point out facts that you clearly have not addressed.

I am saying there is *no* Peggy
ColSON correctly linked to the saga.
If you are still confused as to why I pointed out the difference then reread my comment. My reference to ignore someone who comes in now saying "What about Peggy ColTON" is because that is truly the correct name. If someone said "What about Peggy ColSON" I would say they have been reading incorrect information from Jimmy Moore's site. The name is not the same name and would make a difference for those searching information under that person's name (ie. different public records).


Again, I never tried to hide when I became active in exposing the fraud. The difference is not when we both became involved here on the boards. The difference is to me clearly the fact that your input in this thread *now* upon reflection of your posts does seem to me more of a "fishing" for facts rather than stating them. I do have tons of information and have shared them with those that needed those files.

You know Arbah you are now starting to annoy me with implying that it was me that led you to report back incorrect posts. Why not quote me where I did such a thing or provide links? I think it is because then it would be even more clear that what you are saying is a stretch at best.
You said what said and went wherever you went to get the wrong information then tried to somehow make it make doing. To admit you recalled incorrectly in your state of defensiveness would be taking the high road, but since you chose another path of still attempting to make me responsible for your actions here you go.
In your first post you stated that I sent you JM's blog personally. -Quote-"after going to the sites and blogs YOU sent me to read all about the Kimkins stuff".
So now after I posted exactly how those events occurred- with me only giving you links to the bbc, petition, FTC, etc..Linkand also showing that you stated then -Quote-"I googled Jimmy Moore and followed a link to his blog." Link
you are trying to say that I still somehow lead you to Jimmy Moore?
That is so absurd in how your story has changed from saying you googled Jimmy Moore, to I gave you links to blogs and sites personally, to ok now you read some of my previous posts that linked to antikimkins and the Kimkins controversy and there were links there.

Next it will be that if you happened to take out every third word's letter in one of my posts they formed the word Jimmy Moore and thus I was sending some subliminal message to *you* to go to there and read about Peggy ColSON. I mean geesh...
Why, don't you just admit that you jumped in here Friday assuming I was referring to you and attempted to accuse and quote me incorrectly.?


See above for my comments on what I think about how you found JM's site. The fact is I didn't give you the link as you stated in your post Friday when you stated that I did.
Anything else you say about it is just noise or rather back pedaling words.


I never posted anything about you until you misunderstood my initial post here on Friday and attempted to make it some personal attack.

Otherwise what? Otherwise you won't post or if you do you will blame others for your actions and imply they lead you to post incorrect information??
Again that is up to you if or how you participate in this thread or any other, but if you come here or elsewhere quoting me incorrectly then I am going to call you on it.


So to be clear you reasoning for your posts, that I linked in the post you are responding to now "point by point", is that you were playing Devil's Advocate? That was the purpose for each one? Because your post reads as if you were upset at kimkins for the banning so why come here and defend or present the other side to each point others brought up?


You asking me about my weight loss is *not* out of polite concern or even one to get us on topic. It was done as an attempt to make a jab at me somehow, because I have not posted on that topic much.
However, when I made the statement in my post "I know that you have successfully switched to induction and that is great, so hopefully that has helped you adjust." it was in support. In fact if you notice I had said that I had not commented on your previous posts that seemed questionable in nature because I thought you were going through a time of confusion based on leaving kimkins and that WOE.
Now to me that is support, because I didn't want to question or attack you or anyone who were already dealing with the challenge of adjusting their WOE.

So as far as my weight loss success since leaving Kimkins mine is not as impressive as your report of eight pounds after the first 14 days of adding fat and calories to your previous kimkins WOE, but thank you for your concern. Very impressive job, I must say. I am sure the staff at Kimkins can take pointers on how to improve kimkins. Now, that was not meant as support, but as snark.


Oh yes! You have and in more ways than you know.
So Arbah, I am so glad that you responded because I now have a better understanding of what type of person you are and your intentions.
Even though your post didn't do much but make a different excuse on how you got to JM's site, but still tried to say it was my doing. You didn't just say you misquoted in your post.
You then proceeded to avoided commenting on why you made the posts you did, besides playing devil's advocate. Really, for each one?
Then tried to be sarcastic in your concern for my dieting or my well-being.
But I do think your post did explain a tremendous amount about you.


That is not for me to say since I would be biased. However, I respond to people the way I see fit not based on others. (TOS, and board guidelines excluded) Your words are yours and so are your actions.

Maybe you need to live by some of your own advice that you just tried to give me in a snarky manner...and to quote you....
"At some point we all have to take responsibility for ourselves."




So you name is your screen name? What was it at Kimkins? Mine was HoneyBee. You are correct I did google it and it actually does have many meanings, but I was interested in its meaning to you.

Just as a note on those confused or wondering about the Peggy Colton vs Colson discussion here is the information I forwarded to John Tiedt and others:
Peggy Colton- It was reported that Peggy Colson was an alias of Kimmer’s based on the information that Jimmy proved in his blog saying that the number he called for Kimmer’s podcast interview belonged to a Peggy Colson. This was incorrect.
After searching the phone number he gave (951)278-8203 it appears that number actually belongs to a Peggy Colton.
Peggy Colton Phone book search of 951-278-8203
Peggy Colton (951) 278-8203 741 Via De Luna,Corona, CA 92882

Now note the phone number of Peggy Colton is also the number listed for Nikki Sharp in the Kimkins press release and Dennis Sharp.[/quote]

[CarolynF]

Okay..This is MY last post on the Gooey Butter Cake..BUT, I have to tell that I have made
several of these..(blush)..And, the last one came out the best. I baked it at 325 for around 40 minutes. You want it done..brownish on the top, but still a tiny bit jiggly..(thus the gooey part). What I did is to let it cool at room temperature, then refrigerate it so it is easier to cut..I put on an 8 ounce thing of Cool Whip on the top..THEN cut into very small pieces. You can easily get 20 pieces of this..IT IS EXTREMELY RICH!!

Be sure to take the recipe with you whenever you bring this to anything..Everyone will want it..The pineapple one is to die for!!! I made the lemon one, too..and it is very good..as well as the pumpkin one..

Back to our topic at hand..

[Kisal]

Originally Posted by 2big4mysize

that isn't the low carb version maybe it is a good thing y'all can't see it

Here's Kevinpa's lc versions:

Kevinpa's Gooey Butter Cake
Playground's Gooey Butter Cake Challenge

Kevinpa's yellow cake mix:
1/4 cup almond flour
1 cup Carbquik
1 cup wheat protein isolate 5000
1/8 cup resistant wheat starch 75
3 t. baking powder
1 t. baking soda
1/4 t. salt
2 T. granular erythritol (or 4 T granular erythritol)
2 T. Diabeti Sweet Brown Sugar
1 splenda quick pack(1 cup equivilent)
1 T. not/Sugar

1 egg
1/2 cup (1 stick) butter, cold

Filling:
1 (8-ounce) package cream cheese, softened
2 eggs
1 teaspoon pure vanilla extract
1 1/2 cup powdered erythritol
3 T. not/Sugar
1/2 tsp. splenda quick pack
1/2 cup (1 stick) butter, melted

Preheat oven to 325 degrees. Lightly grease a 13x9x2-inch baking pan.

In mixing bowl combine dry cake ingredients and mix well.
In the bowl of an electric mixer, combine cake mix, egg, and butter and mix well until you have crumbled shortbread-like dough. Pat into the bottom of prepared pan and set aside.

In mixing bowl, thoroughly combine powdered erythritol, not/Sugar and splenda quick pack.

Using an electric mixer, beat cream cheese until smooth. Add eggs and vanilla and mix until creamy. Dump in sweetener mix and beat well. Reduce speed of mixer and slowly pour in melted butter. Mix well.

Pour filling onto cake mixture and spread evenly. Bake for 35 to 40 minutes until the top is set but still jiggles.

This cake freezes very nicely. Cut it into servings, then put the 9 x 13 in the freezer. When just frozen, wrap each serving individually. When microwaved for 1 min on high, it comes out perfectly gooey.

Cals 389.16, Fat Cals 176.66, Total Fat 30.76g, Sat. Fat 16.66g,
Chol. 142.59mg, Sodium 831.10mg, Potassium 78.51mg, Total Carbs 13.49g, Fiber 8.60g, Net Carbs 4.89g, Protein 16.49g.

Pumpkin Gooey Butter Cake: Add a can of pumpkin, and extra egg, and pumpkin pie spice to taste.
========================================
Kevinpa's Chocolate Gooey Butter Cake
Playground's Gooey Butter Cake Challenge

Kevinpa's yellow cake mix:
1/4 cup almond flour
1 cup Carbquik
1 cup wheat protein isolate 5000
1/8 cup resistant wheat starch 75
3 t. baking powder
1 t. baking soda
1/4 t. salt
1 1/4 tsp splenda quick pack(1 1/4 cup equivilent)
1 T. not/Sugar

1 egg
1/2 cup (1 stick) butter, cold

Filling:
2 tsp. splenda quick pack
1/4 cup dutch proccesed cocoa powder
2 T. not/Sugar
3/4 cup butter softened
1/4 cup sf vanilla davinci syrup
2 egg
1 cup carbquik
2/3 cup whipping cream

Preheat oven to 325 degrees. Lightly grease a 13x9x2-inch baking dish.

In mixing bowl combine dry cake ingredients and mix well.
In the bowl of an electric mixer, combine cake mix, egg, and butter and mix well until you have crumbled shortbread-like dough. Pat into the bottom of prepared pan and set aside.

For filling, in a electric mixing bowl combine splenda quick pack, cocoa powder and not/Sugar.
Beat in 3/4 cup butter until creamed.
Beat in the davinci syrup and eggs until smooth.
Add the 1 cup flour and heavy cream alternately to the mixing bowl, beating until combined.
Pour into crust-lined baking dish.

Bake for about 35 to 40 minutes or until cake is nearly firm when you shake it.
Let cool in pan on wire rack.
Remove to serving plate.

[SMP]

Originally Posted by HoneyBee2

...
The main reason is to gain the sympathy vote. It would be stated that they, kimkins' staff, were slotted to be guest on the show but due to blah...blah.. This would not only gain some sympathy or make them victims too, which we all know Kimmer uses, but it would also accomplish the following:
-they would avoid appearing over their head on tv
-they would avoid making kimkins look worse
It could be played off as "they never got to have their say; to show the positive of kimkins, and they could go back to kimkins as martyrs for even "attempting" to battle the "haters", the "negative nancies", the "ducks", the "jealous, weak, greesy cheeseburger eaters" who say Kimkins is "bad bad"!!!

That is my crystal ball prediction.

It's as viable as any theory I've yet heard. But just in case your crystal ball needs recalibration, I think TT will show up and eventually it will come out that she has NEVER done the Kimkins diet as espoused by Kimmer. In which case, isn't THAT rather telling given her adamant stance on behalf of the diet? And she will come home stating she wasn't allowed to defend the diet AS IT IS; so therefore any conclusions the tv show came to were erroneous ... ummm, wrong! (Sorry, Tippy, had to use a simpler word.) I think I'd be squirming tomorrow if my TV worked.

[BamaGal]

Originally Posted by Kisal

Here's Kevinpa's lc versions:

Kevinpa's Gooey Butter Cake
Playground's Gooey Butter Cake Challenge

Thank you for posting the LC version....

Originally Posted by HoneyBee2

Wow, it appears I was late to the discussion. As the saying goes... Give someone enough rope.....
I am curious to if it will be spun as my fault or someone else's fault yet again....or yet even better a Victim now.

Just as a note on those confused or wondering about the Peggy Colton vs Colson discussion here is the information I forwarded to John Tiedt and others:
Peggy Colton- It was reported that Peggy Colson was an alias of Kimmer’s based on the information that Jimmy proved in his blog saying that the number he called for Kimmer’s podcast interview belonged to a Peggy Colson. This was incorrect.
After searching the phone number he gave (951)278-8203 it appears that number actually belongs to a Peggy Colton.
Peggy Colton Phone book search of 951-278-8203
Peggy Colton (951) 278-8203 741 Via De Luna,Corona, CA 92882

Now note the phone number of Peggy Colton is also the number listed for Nikki Sharp in the Kimkins press release and Dennis Sharp.

Thanks for clarifying that Colton info---that is something I was not familiar wit

[This time]

Ok now i have drool all over my keyboard,from the sound of that cake

[CarolynF]

I started a thread for The Morning Show Discussion below our threads..That is for during the show and after the show..This thread is for the pre-game commentary..(like football).

[This time]

Originally Posted by CarolynF

I started a thread for The Morning Show Discussion below our threads..That is for during the show and after the show..This thread is for the pre-game commentary..(like football).

Sometimes the pre-game is better then the game

[CarolynF]

Yup..it is..LOLOLO..I'm sure we will not be dissappointed..Just seeing "our girls" Christin/Deni will be a real treat..(not to mention Tippy)..She should be lucky it's not a Spelling Bee, huh?

[2big4mysize]

Originally Posted by CarolynF

I started a thread for The Morning Show Discussion below our threads..That is for during the show and after the show..This thread is for the pre-game commentary..(like football).

can we have spoilers in there??? please cause some of us don't get the show in our areas

[SMP]

...
Now note the phone number of Peggy Colton is also the number listed for Nikki Sharp in the Kimkins press release and Dennis Sharp.[/color][/b]

[/quote]

Doggone! Pinching the pennies by not having a different phone line for several of her aliases tripped Heidi up every time! Thanks, Honey, this was all new info to me. Hear that, Heidi? Next time use a few more dollars for an extra phone line and less for dating the Captain!
Reminder to you CSI scripters - it's the stupid little mistakes that get the crooks every time!