Building a healthy WOE (if possible) based on Kimkins

[Kona sunset]

Wow! What a journey! First, let me give a little history. Tried Atkins in the 70's. Couldn't stick to it. Maintained my weight at ~122 all through college with my own LC WOE, meaning if I gained a couple pounds (weighed daily), I would cut back on the sweets and junk until it came off again, then would eat whatever I desired. Where I went wrong was when I got married and didn't get on the scales for 3 months. With BC pills and my husband's bad influence, I put on 20 lbs. WW wouldn't take me because they didn't consider me overweight! I finally gained enough that they did let me in, but I couldn't stick with that, either. Tried it twice.

I actually did lose some for a while by cutting out desserts, but between injuries to my back and hormones/steroids to try to get pregnant, I gained that back and then some. My husband died, I eventually remarried and we have both gained. Not all at once, but in spurts. I think I always had in the back of my mind that I would never allow myself to go over 200. Well, a few months ago, I hit 201 and that was it! Through portion control, I was able to stop the upward climb, and even was beginning to notice a downward trend.

DH and I had tried '92 Atkins a few years ago, but were living with his parents at the time and they are very much into low fat. DH had agreed to do it for the two weeks of induction, but wouldn't stay with it beyond that. I was so outnumbered, I caved and just went back to my old WOE. We did lose some, but I got started on the "frankenfoods" and couldn't lose any more. That's when I first discovered LCF. I never registered, but I put it on my Links and read a lot. I learned about the problems with sugar alcohols, among other things. I was eating lots of Advantage bars and SF candy. I knew the sugar alcohols, probably soy, and maybe too much fat, had to be a major part of my problem, but by that time, I was too discouraged to try again.

When I saw the WW mag, I had to buy it and see what it was all about. A lot of the things put forth in the article made sense to me. They certainly made it sound like Dr. Pescatore endorsed KK and the menus looked and sounded very healthy (I later put them into Fitday.. Hmmm). DH had rolled his eyes when I bought it, but he was soon on board, too. We joined KK and started 6/25. I lost almost 20 lbs in the first month. He lost even more, but wasn't super strict with it. I tried to be strict, but my numbers were all over the place. I was amazed at times at how little I was eating and was totally caught up in the weight loss. Then, I met up with someone who lives near me that was also a member of KK. She told me about the controversy. I wasn't happy about it at first, but came back here and began to read. I still haven't read all of the "fascination" thread, but am keeping up with the current posts. I have read all of this thread and some of the others.

I think KK has some valid arguments, but do have concerns about it being so restrictive. I've been reading Mary Enig and Sally Fallon's "Eat Fat, Lose Fat" and am intrigued by the idea of more natural foods, which is what I had planned to go to when I got to maintenance. I also understand the need for a certain amount of fat in the diet. I have some limited nutritional background (a nutrition course and biochemistry in college many years ago!) so when I took the time to really understand what I was doing, I knew a change needed to be made. I gained about 3 lbs back and have lost back down. I started KK at 199, lost to 178, and am holding pretty steady at 179.5 right now. I still have a long way to go. 120 would put me right in the middle for a healthy BMI.

Other things to know about me--I am hypothyroid (take Westhroid - similar to Armour) and hypoglycemic. My oldest brother was just diagnosed with diabetes. I don't want to go there, but I don't want to starve myself, either. I would welcome questions to try to help me figure out a healthy ratio of carbs/fats/proteins and let the calories fall where they may as long as I lose! I also have a chart of my daily weight/calories/carbs/fat/protein that I can post if that would be helpful.

OK. This is long enough for now!

TIA

[lindaokc]

Hi Kona Just wanted to join your thread. I'll probably just lurk and learn, but wanted to support you.

[Kona sunset]

Hey, Linda I was just writing you an e-mail and came back over here to check on something. Hang around all you want. I hope this turns out to be a good thread.

[lindaokc]

Me too, Kona. All I can do is learn

[KandieSnap]

Thanks, Kona! Great thread! I look forward to it.

[Kona sunset]

To make sure we are all on the same page here, I am posting the "original" plan with the main changes in brackets according to the Kimkins website. It is obviously somewhat more liberal (and Atkins-like) than what is the official diet posted here at LCF. I'm not sure any of the other plans could be made into a healthy WOE, so I'm not concerning myself with them.

*Up to 20 total carbs (not 'net')
*Up to 3 cups salad type {List 1} veggies or
*Up to 2 cups salad (List 1) veggies + .5 cup 'cooked' {0-1 cup “List 2" veggies per day}
*70-90 lean protein grams {as much lean protein as desired from the official list}
*No LC products, treats, junk or alcohol
*Just enough fat to make your menu work (don't overdo)

Kimmer does mention that "calories count" on the original plan, but doesn't go beyond that officially. Well, based on my experience, maybe they do and maybe they don't. I had days of extremely low calories where I didn't lose anything and others with over 2000 calories where I dropped 1/2 lb the next day. Go figure!

So, the whole idea here is to figure out what works for those of us that have had difficulty with Atkins, have found that we can lose on Kimkins, but want to avoid damaging our health.

[Kona sunset]

KandieSnap! Thanks for joining us. I think we're gonna have a great time learning and losing.

[HevinMonkey]

Kona....this is a great idea...just to be sure....is anyone welcome here? Even if at times the input may not totally support Kimkins woe?

I don't mean bashing either! I just don't want to make the mistake of posting here if my very presence is going to be offensive to anyone.

[KandieSnap]

I think the objective here is to have an objective thread where it is ok to discuss all of the health implications of Kimkins diets, so newbies who come here "shopping" for one can see all the information they need to make an educated choice for themselves.

They could probably get what they need to know by reading the Fascination thread, but only if they have a month of free time to wade their way through it.

[KandieSnap]

Originally Posted by Kona sunset

KandieSnap! Thanks for joining us. I think we're gonna have a great time learning and losing.

Thanks! Me too!

[Kona sunset]

Originally Posted by HevinMonkey

Kona....this is a great idea...just to be sure....is anyone welcome here? Even if at times the input may not totally support Kimkins woe?

I don't mean bashing either! I just don't want to make the mistake of posting here if my very presence is going to be offensive to anyone.

Hevin, I just posted to you over on the "fascination" thread! You are sooooo welcome here. As I said over there, I want us to tear the diet apart, figure out what needs to be added/changed, and then put it back together in a healthy way. I just want to keep the simplicity of it. I think that is one of the things that makes it so popular. I know that is one of the things I like about it. It's really pretty easy to follow. It's just lacking.

The only thing I would ask is that we stick to the diet itself and not discuss Kimmer here. We'll leave her for the other thread. Fair enough?

[RockyMtnAngelEyes]

Marking my spot.. I know I'll lurk, and test the waters,..

I love the idea of this thread! Great idea, thanks for starting it...

[Kona sunset]

Originally Posted by KandieSnap

I think the objective here is to have an objective thread where it is ok to discuss all of the health implications of Kimkins diets, so newbies who come here "shopping" for one can see all the information they need to make an educated choice for themselves.

You got it, Kandie! Let's give it a good going over and learn what is safe, healthy and will work for those of us that have a tough time with the other LC diets.

They could probably get what they need to know by reading the Fascination thread, but only if they have a month of free time to wade their way through it.

I've been reading on that one for nearly a month already, but definitely not enough free time! I've spent waaayyyy too much time over there wading through it and I'm only about 1/2 done.

[lindaokc]

Originally Posted by Kona sunset

The only thing I would ask is that we stick to the diet itself and not discuss Kimmer here. We'll leave her for the other thread. Fair enough?

Sounds like a wonderful ground rule, Kona. Thanks for doing that.
Welcome, Hevinmonkey, glad to have you here. You too Kandisnap

[lindaokc]

Hi Kiki Long time no see.

[Kona sunset]

Originally Posted by RockyMtnAngelEyes

Marking my spot.. I know I'll lurk, and test the waters,..

I love the idea of this thread! Great idea, thanks for starting it...

You're welcome! I'm looking forward to some really good discussion.

[Kona sunset]

Originally Posted by lindaokc

Sounds like a wonderful ground rule, Kona. Thanks for doing that.
Welcome, Hevinmonkey, glad to have you here. You too Kandisnap

Yep, Linda, as far as I'm concerned, the diet is fair game here. I want a good, intelligent discussion with no one putting others down for their views.

[HevinMonkey]

Originally Posted by Kona sunset

Hevin, I just posted to you over on the "fascination" thread! You are sooooo welcome here. As I said over there, I want us to tear the diet apart, figure out what needs to be added/changed, and then put it back together in a healthy way. I just want to keep the simplicity of it. I think that is one of the things that makes it so popular. I know that is one of the things I like about it. It's really pretty easy to follow. It's just lacking.

The only thing I would ask is that we stick to the diet itself and not discuss Kimmer here. We'll leave her for the other thread. Fair enough?

Fair Enough!

I think I'm going to hang out with Kiki and lurk for a bit...lick my wounds a little and toughen up!

Thanks so much for the invite and the welcome! I sure hope Controlled Carb joins us...she is one smart cookie (low carb cookie, of course!) when it comes to Low Carb and I know she would have some excellent input!

[RockyMtnAngelEyes]

Originally Posted by lindaokc

Hi Kiki Long time no see.

Hi Linda... Good to see you sweetie...

[RockyMtnAngelEyes]

Originally Posted by HevinMonkey

Fair Enough!

I think I'm going to hang out with Kiki and lurk for a bit...lick my wounds a little and toughen up!

Thanks so much for the invite and the welcome! I sure hope Controlled Carb joins us...she is one smart cookie (low carb cookie, of course!) when it comes to Low Carb and I know she would have some excellent input!

Pull your chair right up next to me, beautiful.. We can hold onto each other for support...

[KimPossible]

Love this idea, will be lurking and anxious for enlightenment!

<thread hijack> Kona, Just had to look up what a Kona sunset looked like and wanted to share:
Beautiful! <hijack over>

[Kona sunset]

Hevin and Kiki, you can sit back for now, but get those wounds healed up fast, OK? I know you both have knowledge to contribute so I'm expecting you to participate. I'm sure controlledcarb will join us just as soon as she discovers this thread. I think she had already gone offline for the evening when I started it.

jeajsmom, and thanks for the sunset picture! It's sooooo pretty. I've only been to Kona once (last January), but we are going back this fall/winter. I can't wait! The sunsets are gorgeous. I was thinking of picking out one of my sunset pics for my avatar. Just haven't gotten to it yet.

I need to get back to bed and try to get some sleep. Rain and thunder are keeping me awake, plus I've been too busy thinking of what we need to discuss. I'll post some questions/thoughts tomorrow and we'll get this ball rolling.

[lindaokc]

Good morning everyone,
Got on the scale this morning and it's at 157 & 1/2, down 1 & 1/2 lbs after my refeed high. Don't know if it will work or not, but I'll consider it a success if I can get down to 155-. That will be 1/2 lb under where I have been bouncing around for the past few weeks. Following the shake it up thread that Tippy told me about also. Might be something to try if this doesn't work.
Looks like the whole state of Oklahoma is under water. Power outages and road closings. MAN that's alot of water.

[Kona sunset]

Lots of water, for sure, Linda! Those hurricanes usually have lost their punch by the time they get here, but not Dean! He was a meany!

Glad to see you are down today. I was up, but I'm starting back on Kimkins tomorrow. I'm not going to cut the fat. I'm going to keep the coconut oil and butter and I'm not going to necessarily do lean cuts of meat.

I'm attaching my chart of my first round of Kimkins. The days where I went way over on carbs were most likely days that I had gyro meat. I discovered, after the fact, that gyro meat is very carby. Oops! It's also high fat, but I wasn't worrying so much about that. I don't remember exactly what happened on the day that was only 265 calories, except that I tried a recipe that obviously didn't work. I was definitely HUNGRY that day! I also don't remember why I didn't eat something else since I obviously had room to do it. The other VLC days, I was hungry, I just wasn't interested in eating.

Well, feel free to ask questions, critique, whatever!

[Kona sunset]

[COLOR="Blue"]Pull up a chair, everyone! It's time to start class!

I thought that we would begin by discussing the positives of Kimkins because we want to be able to emphasize as much of the positive as possible while eliminating the negative aspects of it. I know, it won't be Kimkins when we are done, but we will, hopefully, have a plan that can be safely followed for those who are struggling with other LC plans.

So, if you have done Kimkins or have even just thought about it, please share what attracted you to it. Also, those who have actually used the plan, would you please share what positive effects it has had on you, healthwise, emotional, etc. If you have any kind of documentation, such as lab reports, it would be great if you would share those as well.[/COLOR]

I'll start. What attracted me to Kimkins was the idea that I could lose without exercise. Because of my back problems, I am very limited on the type of exercise I can do. Even walking is tough. I have felt like I was between a rock and a hard place because I needed to lose weight, but it seemed the only way to do that effectively was with exercise, a major cause of pain for me. The times that I injured my back and couldn't move a lot were times of weight gain. Each time made it even more difficult to do what was necessary to take it back off. Kimkins finally gave me hope that I might be able to get the weight off and eliminate a lot of the stress on my back so that I could exercise.

I also like the simplicity of the plan. It's pretty easy to figure out what to eat without having to consult all kinds of charts, etc. Of course, using Fitday (I like FitdayPC) helps, but even without it, it's pretty easy to keep things under control, carb-wise. I didn't worry too much if I went over a carb or two because of not counting net carbs. It seemed to balance out and I was losing pretty fast. I like not having to figure out net carbs and wondering if the carbs I'm subtracting are going to create a problem.

I was pleased with the fact that things like sugar alcohols were not allowed. It removed a serious temptation that was, I believe, a major problem for me when I did Atkins.

While on the plan, I noticed that I had more energy and slept better, at least initially. My GERD eased up considerably and I found I didn't need the Pepcid Complete before bed! I had less pain so I didn't have to take as much ibuprofen as before. Even my migraines eased up after the initial headache. The quick weight loss was a great motivator to stay on plan and I did get to the point that I could even walk around the block.

I can't think of anything else at the moment. If I do, I'll add it. This should get us started, then we'll move on to other things.

[Sherrie_lc]

I have some quick suggestions

First if you really do tear this diet apart and make something better then please call it by a different name. Do not call it Kimkins because you then just promote a diet your not doing as well as give a person credit for your success whom really has nothing to do with it, you did.

I would consider using net carbs. Keep out all the junk and sugar alcohols but I would suggest eating more veggies and salads. Unless you have a food intolerance, I don't think 20g of "net" veggies will do any harm and will only serve to help you in the poo department. I would also consider slowly increasing it as you go like the Atkins rungs too.
In Australia fibre is automatically taken out of our carbohydrate counts because it isn't digested, on our labels broccoli for example was only 0.5g carbs per 100g.

Next is fat, I thinks its great your using butter and coconut oil, I would also suggest supplementing with omega 3s. Fish oil is the best and for those who want to raise their calories through fats without eating their "greasy" fats then a good way to do that is to supplement with flax oil. You could swig it down or you could use it for salad dressings of say half flax oil and half apple cidar vinegar or the like.

Avoid processed meats or limit them.

Another is calories, I would suggest you workout your BMR and use that as a guide and see how you go. Controlled carb made a few good posts on that in the fascination thread.

These changes equal out to being just a clean version of Atkins except your counting calories.

[lindaokc]

Well, one of the things I liked about kimkins was the quick weight loss, and it was easy to keep track of the carbs without having to subtract the fiber. Made it pretty simple.
Another plus was the fact I could boil up a couple of chickens and have a bunch ready in the freezer in individual packages to just grab and go. No muss, no fuss. Because there wasn't alot of add ons or sauces, the menu was pretty easy to use and cooking was easy, the egg muffins, the boiled chicken, salads, etc.

The positive effects of the program were pretty easy to detect, the quick weight loss.....that's about the only plus I can remember. There were some negatives, potty issues, baggy skin, but I'm not sure I wouldn't have had these w/ any low carb program although maybe not quite as bad as losing the weight quickly. I do know I started using laxatives on kimkins and now I know better. Hope I haven't done permanent damage. I also knew I had to slow down the weight loss as I got closer to maintenance, so I started to cycle. Well, I not only slowed down, I stopped weight loss totally and I'm not sure why. I'm trying right now to shake things up and keep my body guessing, doing a "refeed" and then back on plan. Don't know if I should do low fat/ high fat/ adequate protein, higher protein, low calorie, higher calorie?????? It's confusing, to be sure, but we will figure it out.
We need all the lurkers to put in your thoughts as well, let us know what worked for you, please?

[KimPossible]

I was attracted by the simplicity of the plan, the appetite supressing effect of ketosis, the fast weight loss promises, and the fact that I could pay once on the site and never pay anything again. Having done WW, I know what kind of money can be "invested" in losing weight--even if it is "just" a pound a week. I have seen the WL effects of LC, and thought why not? I didn't do the laxative thing, LC doesn't constipate me--I get the opposite effect. I say that I didn't worry about calories, but after checking my past fitdays, there were quite a few days under 800. There were others that were higher, which never bothered me either. I ate when hungry, plain and simple.

[KJGmn10]

I'm still pretty new at this WOE but thus far I'm liking it a lot! Very simple foods to start with, K/E pretty much being M/E without the extra meat fat. No problem. That's one thing that attracted me to the diet.

I did South Beach awhile back. While I like the plan, what I didn't like (and this might sound odd to some) is the variety. Why? Because knowing I can have Ricotta Creme makes me overindulge in stuff like that. Not to mention the expense of some of the foods. I need serious structure, simplicity, and discipline, and THAT means scale it as far back as possible. Hence, K/E. Cheap, uncomplicated, nothing to keep going back and reading up on to see if it's allowed. I know what's allowed, and that's what I do my best to stick with.

Do I tweak the plan? Yeah. Very little but yeah. And even with the tweakage, my calories are down, my carbs are down, my protein intake is within the level I want it to be, and I have a good balance of good fats.

The quick results certainly are a plus. 8.5 pounds in 9 days? Even with a couple of pretty bad stumbles along the way? I'll take it. Counting calories? Another plus, going back to that structure and discipline piece. I need it. I'm keeping myself far more accountable now than I ever have on a WOE and seeing the results in the mirror and on the scale is keeping me more on track than I ever have been either (baklava notwithstanding...argh). I'm sure I could do the 1 to 2 lb per week loss....hey, it'd only take about 6 months to get to goal like that....but that long period of time is that much more opportunity to fall off-plan. Losing it fast, but losing healthy will be better for me because I will get to goal for the first time in YEARS with less likelihood of giving up. I'm not a patient person.

Anyway, just my .02.

[CarolynF]

Kona,

Hi..I hope I'm welcome, too.. We are all about health..and my "hero" is Dr. Barry Groves..who does advocate fat as our perfect energy source when we don't have carbs.
That is the best source we have and will not cause health problems (like the use of protein does).So, this "perfect" plan has to have enough fat to keep us healthy (and our skin from drying out and our energy up). But, that is the $20,000 question..Isn't it?

How much fat do we need to add to our plan to make it a healthy plan while still losing weight so our body doesn't eat into our lean body mass? The perfect plan would have 60-70 percent fat. But, if people want to cut back on that, they certainly can....but going too low you are dipping into dangerous territory, healthwise. People can live forever on just eating meat as long as it is fatty meat, but they have proven that they will get ill (first nausea..and downhill after that), if they are just eating lean meat with
very few carbs. Less carbs, more fat.....More carbs, less fat..This is well documented.