Why the fascination with Kimmer?

[controlledcarb]

In the end, we believe that the combined intelligence and contributions by all involved will benefit everyone. The voice of reason generally prevails.

I guess my question is why does a fad like Kimkins have it's own section, when other legitimate plans like Protein Power are relegated to the "other plans" section? Honestly, do you think Kimkins deserves such recognition here...whether it's explicit or implicit, IMO it sends the wrong message to those following low-carb, especially newbies!

[Nady]

Thanks Tom~ and thanks for letting this thread remain open~ I guess this is the way many of us are expressing our fears about this diet~ about it's dangers~


~~~N

[Tom]

When enough people are interested in talking about Protein Power that it is taking over some other forum, we will create a Protein Power forum. The majority of the posts in the Other Plans forum were about Kimkins, probably due to Kimmer posting here for so long and the magazine publicity, so we felt it was time to move that topic to its own forum.

[controlledcarb]

Originally Posted by Tom

When enough people are interested in talking about Protein Power that it is taking over some other forum, we will create a Protein Power forum. The majority of the posts in the Other Plans forum were about Kimkins, probably due to Kimmer posting here for so long and the magazine publicity, so we felt it was time to move that topic to its own forum.

Well IMO I think it was a move made that was probably not in the best interest of low-carb in general....and leaves newcomers seeing her diet smack dab in the middle of those listed as if it is a safe, legitimate and healthy approach to low-carb. Remove my post here if you want - but I think it sends the wrong message to those seeking a healthy weight loss diet....and that is what I thought was supposed to be the foundation of LCF - healthy low-carb? Sorry if this sounds snarky....it's just rather disappointing to see such a dangerous diet given credability here.

[cgkane]

Originally Posted by CarolynF

I totally agree..Malnutrition is a very serious matter when we age. My very own minlaw lost 34 pounds in the last 5 years. She just doesn't eat very much..has lost her appetite and feels kinda sick, and has gastritis..She weighs 96 pounds and is 5 6"..She can barely stand up she is so weak..She can barely walk because of loss of muscle with her weight loss.

I can't tell you how many times I have taken her to the doctor and he tells her to eat more..but she can't do it now. She probably eats 800-900 calories a day..but the dr. wants her to eat 1500 for her weight..She won't do it.

She lives in Assisted Living now and they fix all her meals, so it's not that she isn't eating, and she takes an Ensure every night..which keeps her alive, I think. The rest of the ladies her age are doing great and look very healthy.

She used to eat quite a bit when she was on the farm, but then slowly started eating less and less..small breakie, apple for lunch, small dinner...It is so sad to see her just withering away. Sorry for the digression..

Carolyn- I couldn't agree more. My mom has battled weight issues most of her life. Even though she has been overweight for decades, she has also been diagnosed as malnourished for decades.

Right now she is again over 300 lbs. and basically lives off Ensure and Instant Breakfast that we add protein powder to (the Dr. suggested about 100gr a day). Other than this- it's rare to get her to eat anything.
She has it in her head now that she is huge and ugly and nothing can convince her to eat some decent food. Or any food for that matter.

It's like a very long drawn out slow death (she's been this way for 6 years now. dropped to 240 lbs started eating, started gaining and stopped once she realized she was gaining).

I could go on, but you get the picture. It's horrible to stand by and watch someone you love slowly destroy themselves.

[CarolynF]

It's amazing how ED's even can happen in the elderly, isn't it? Sorry about your mom..But, it's all about control sometimes. YOU CAN'T MAKE ME EAT!!! Like a little kid..

ED's are very strange and with the vLCD Kimmerites, they seem to be punishing themselves
for getting fat, by withdrawing food. They are mad at their bodies, so they aren't going to feed them..JMHO..

[Nady]

Originally Posted by CarolynF

ED's are very strange and with the vLCD Kimmerites, they seem to be punishing themselves for getting fat, by withdrawing food. They are mad at their bodies, so they aren't going to feed them..JMHO..

You may have just psyched that one out in a sentence~ I never really thought of it that way but it makes sense~ * I eat just like everybody else, how dare you make me fat when my friends aren't* sort of thing~

Probably too simplistic~
~~~N

[HevinMonkey]

Originally Posted by CarolynF

ED's are very strange and with the vLCD Kimmerites, they seem to be punishing themselves
for getting fat, by withdrawing food. They are mad at their bodies, so they aren't going to feed them..JMHO..

Sadly enough Carolyn, you are SO right. It commonly is a form of self-punishment that gets taken to obsessive measures. Very low self esteem and feelings of unworthiness are common among those with EDs. Many of those suffering from an ED will typically get very angry and defensive with anyone who tries to point out the truth of what they are doing to themselves - no matter how loving and genuine the concern really is, they think that anyone trying to show them the truth is "against" them and wants them to be fat.
Frequently they will lash out at the concerned party with contempt because "they don't have the strength and self control to do it themselves". I have seen that many times just within this thread.

Its heartbreaking really, and personally that is why I don't understand how anyone can take a diet such as Kimkins that has such incredible potential to start/feed into/support such a horrible thing as an ED and wave it proudly like a flag. There is no safe and sane way to promote an eating disorder. And if you have found that way, you are no longer doing Kimkins, so why call it that and continue to perpetuate such an evil? ANY acceptance/tolerance of this plan potentially gives someone else the justification and support they need to continue it....at what cost to them?

[CarolynF]

Yes..I think it makes total sense, Nady..I'm betting many people who do vLCD's really hate their bodies. It's like punishing them to withdraw food. You don't feed someone you don't like, do you? I think anyone who is attracted to this and does it for a while, has issues with this. And the SNATT and the illness are further punishment....The smart ones wake up and realize what they are doing!!

Great post, Kimber..

[SMP]

Originally Posted by Nady

Been reading the comments on the article~ I guess yes, it is a bad idea~ makes us look like hypocrites.

I just PM'd the mods with the link~ they should know what's being said~
~~~N

Disagree. (Sorry.) The diet police can have a field day with every single plan listed on this forum; so I approve of the admins permitting the various plans w/o too many opposers. Kimkins is a terrible plan, but by permitting The Fascination thread to exist in the Kimkins forum, we have our best chance at luring the unknowledgeable to read more and get educated as to what they're doing to themselves. Several have already said how relieved and happy they are to find such education. My kneejerk reaction was to censor Kimkins, but after thinking about it, I think this is the best workable solution, short of plunking all those on vLCD's into hospital and forcefeeding them!

[hippiegirl]

/

Originally Posted by CarolynF

It's amazing how ED's even can happen in the elderly, isn't it? Sorry about your mom..But, it's all about control sometimes. YOU CAN'T MAKE ME EAT!!! Like a little kid..

ED's are very strange and with the vLCD Kimmerites, they seem to be punishing themselves
for getting fat, by withdrawing food. They are mad at their bodies, so they aren't going to feed them..JMHO..

/

This is a very prevalent attitude on the KK site. There was an exchange on the Ask Kimmer Thread at the KK site recently where Kimmer said, when complimenting someone for staying on plan during a fair, something to the effect of "I'm so proud of you! You really showed your body who's boss!" [Bold emphasis is mine]

[KimPossible]

Originally Posted by hippiegirl

//
I'm so proud of you! You really showed your body who's boss!" [Bold emphasis is mine]

I really don't see the inherent evil in that statement. Many of us would agree that we have an addiction to sugar/carbs. A true addiction. So, to avoid nasty fried, not good for you, caloric laden, nutritionally deficient fair foods--I would've echoed the same sentiment. Mind over cravings it is--it is the EXTREME that is dangerous (mind over will/need to eat). If there is a poster here on these boards that resists insert food craving do we not say "Great job?" What is the difference, really, from the above? To cut and paste a post out of context does nothing to help the true argument that it is the EXTREME that is dangerous. I started my LC lifestyle on the Kimkins site. I was never extreme in what I did. I tweaked the fat and that to me IS Kimkins, b/c it says "enough fat to make it work." I just needed LOTS of it!

[Lori]

Originally Posted by SMP

For those not into pro-ana sites, but wonder what the big deal is, here's a good write-up in the UK.
BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Seeking 'thinspiration'

Thank you for the link.

[hippiegirl]

Originally Posted by jeajsmom

I really don't see the inherent evil in that statement. Many of us would agree that we have an addiction to sugar/carbs. A true addiction. So, to avoid nasty fried, not good for you, caloric laden, nutritionally deficient fair foods--I would've echoed the same sentiment. Mind over cravings it is--it is the EXTREME that is dangerous (mind over will/need to eat). If there is a poster here on these boards that resists insert food craving do we not say "Great job?" What is the difference, really, from the above? To cut and paste a post out of context does nothing to help the true argument that it is the EXTREME that is dangerous. I started my LC lifestyle on the Kimkins site. I was never extreme in what I did. I tweaked the fat and that to me IS Kimkins, b/c it says "enough fat to make it work." I just needed LOTS of it!

Ummm...I didn't cut and paste anything. I didn't do so because of the earlier conversation on this thread about privacy for members of KK site. The only point I was trying to make was the attitude of "showing your body who's boss" instead of loving your body, making the right choice, having respect for your body, etc. It's the attitude that your body is to be fought against, or punished, rather than loved and nurtured. That was my only point. It just struck me wrong in my gut when I read it the other day, that's all.

[KimPossible]

Did I come across as harsh? Sorry. I see your point--and to me a gut reaction is always the one to follow. Cut and paste was meant more of an out of context--I agree that there is a mental battle waging against our bodies (the reason of the why some don't eat when hungry) instead of the openess of listening and responding...lord knows my body yells at me now when I over indulge in carbs. I can't believe I ever thought that was normal...

As a side note: I did have a gut check feeling right after joining the KK site: "what if this is a fat guy with nothing else to do? I'd never know..." hmmmmm.......

[hippiegirl]

Originally Posted by jeajsmom

Did I come across as harsh? Sorry. I see your point--and to me a gut reaction is always the one to follow. Cut and paste was meant more of an out of context--I agree that there is a mental battle waging against our bodies (the reason of the why some don't eat when hungry) instead of the openess of listening and responding...lord knows my body yells at me now when I over indulge in carbs. I can't believe I ever thought that was normal...

As a side note: I did have a gut check feeling right after joining the KK site: "what if this is a fat guy with nothing else to do? I'd never know..." hmmmmm.......

It's all good - I just wanted to clarify what I meant, and that I hadn't cut and pasted. As for the fat guy with nothing else to do? I think most of us have had that thought at some point. Although I am leaning more toward fat lady with nothing else to do.

[heather2578]

Originally Posted by controlledcarb

Well IMO I think it was a move made that was probably not in the best interest of low-carb in general....and leaves newcomers seeing her diet smack dab in the middle of those listed as if it is a safe, legitimate and healthy approach to low-carb. Remove my post here if you want - but I think it sends the wrong message to those seeking a healthy weight loss diet....and that is what I thought was supposed to be the foundation of LCF - healthy low-carb? Sorry if this sounds snarky....it's just rather disappointing to see such a dangerous diet given credability here.

I would tend to agree with you (and have posted something similar twice before, but I cannot find those posts anymore). I love LCF and I so appreciate that we're able to debate both sides. However, I disagree with the kimkins plan as much as I would disagree with any eating disorder, so it's disappointing to see it indirectly get promoted by having it's own section here.

Tom, perhaps a locked sticky could be put at the top of this section with a warning about low calorie diets... maybe that one that Cheri posted in the main lobby a few weeks back could be copied here?

[juniper01]

Originally Posted by fluffybear2

First of all I take vitamin supplements along with what I eat so FitDay does not tell the whole story. Secondly I rarely go below 800 calories. Today was an exception but not much of one. Third, my doctor has approved a VLCD for me because of my slow metabolism due to hypothyroidism. .

Fluffybear, I too am hypothyroid, and all the information that I have read says that going below 1200 calories a day and cutting carbs below 25-30 net stops your T4 to T3 conversion and creates bigger problems. It has been my experience that I will stop losing when my calories go below 1200 and net carbs below 30. There is a wonderful thread on these forum to read about thyroid, it will take time, but well worth it. It is under the top sticky on the page: http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/he...edical-issues/

I wanted to also be sure of my facts, and Nonstick Pam on the forum reassured me that I was correct, this was her response to my question:

"Dr.Broda Barnes was the doctor who did most of the testing on hypothyroid individuals and metabolisms. It's not JUST those with autoimmune hypothyroidism either (Hashimoto's). Dr. B (and Dr. Atkins much later) found that when you lower your carbs less than 30net, AND your calories to less than 1200, that your T4 to T3 conversion is almost nonexistent and can trigger Hashimoto's as well as tertiary hypothyroidism.

Subjects who ate well OVER 1600 to 1800 calories a day with 25net grams carbs did quite well. Subjects who ate well over 100 grams carbs and about 1400 cals a day did well too. "

Pam

Are you seeing an endocrinologist, or a regular MD?

[juniper01]

Originally Posted by anipomoni

You're right, you need less calories with hypo. But "less" does not equal VLC. I think I read it's about 200 calories less than someone with a normally functioning thyroid.
Being hypo is even more of a reason to make sure you are eating enough. VLC's negatively impact thyroid function. Kimmer, admittedly, takes a very high dosage of Synthroid (325 mcg).

Having to take that high a dose of Synthroid is certainly a sign that calories and carbs have been cut too low to stop T4 conversion to T3. "Kimkins" VLCD is a definite way to ruin your thyroid function. When you ruin your thyroid, there is no turning back. What a shame...

[cleochatra]

I've kept my tongue, but I have a couple of things I'd like to say.

I felt that the castigation of LCF was uncalled for on the blog, personally.

While I avow that a family-friendly site should not allow for VLCDs to be prominently displayed as viable weight loss plans, I do believe the LCF serves a very important function:

1. It is a free site for people to find information. This will draw people in who either cannot afford to pay $60 or for those who don't want to pay for information that is readily available here.

2. When here, people see there are other means of weight loss. 99.9% of people who start Kimkins never make it for very long. this is partially due to the body's revolting against a plan which is basically something very unnatural for us physiologically. It sends out signals through dire hunger, blackouts, and heart palpitations, among other things. If people had joined the main KK site, they'd be out $60 and would give up on all viable low-carb plans based on one which is not viable. Here, they see viable plans which offer better success and health, and instead of losing one KK dieter, we're gaining a low-carber for life who will follow a more pragmatic plan.

3. There is plenty of room for dissention here, and the management allows for this. I have mentioned a few separate times on threads at different places at LCF that I felt Kimkins to be a crash diet and have not yet received a single infraction. My commentaries were polite and not an ad hominem attack on the poster, and, as such, remained in the realm of opinion and not seen as harrassment or a slam on the poster.

4. Kimkins is the thing we're fighting here. To make LCF a part of the eeeeeviiilllllll, is to detract from points 1-3 above. It also takes things off in a totally separate tangent from the important message: That Kimkins is the bad guy here. Not LCF. We must remember this, remain vigilant, and fight together, rather than being drawn off onto tangents such as whether or not LCF is eeeebiiillll for allow discussion of Kimkins.

The truth is this: there can be no practical way of eradicating forums here which encompass Kimkins until Kimkins itself id totally and utterly quashed as a plan by doctors, the health community, and through other means. Only when people see, intellectually and pragmatically, that this plan is no plan at all that a forum like the "Kimmer" forum can truly cease to exist.

We're not doing ourselves a service by running Kimkins dieters off the board. While it may be inconvenient to listen to people sticking apples in their armpits and using waffles to refeed instead of healthy options, it in no way aids those who truly benefit by seeing that there are safe, sane and sustainable ways to lose weight which do not involve milk of magnesia, fasting and egg whites.

If you find frustration, spend that time writing to the FTC. Start some undergroud groups to get things moving. Boycott the people who she sponsors and is a partner with on the Kimkins site.

We can put forth a real effort which matters, but we have to do this together. It's been done before, and it can be done again. It should be done again.

[CarolynF]

This was sort of like "killing the messenger".. We lose site of the problem...Kimkins..

It's amazing how people's ears are just shut even when they know it's dangerous, they don't care. I guess (unfortunately), they will have to experience the health problems themselves, then they will wise up..(maybe).

They may see the fat come off, but they can't see what else is happening inside their bodies..

[RockyMtnAngelEyes]

Cleo, you make some very good points.. I guess I wasn't looking at it that way at all...

It's such a close, personal thing for me {and by personal, I mean the ED issues and all the memories that go with that, for me}, that all I want is to see it wiped off the face of the earth..

I wasn't as open minded on it all, and didn't think it thru nearly enough, when I formed my opinion on this.. I will be doing some rethinking...