Why the fascination with Kimmer?

[SMP]

For those not into pro-ana sites, but wonder what the big deal is, here's a good write-up in the UK.
BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Seeking 'thinspiration'

[controlledcarb]

Originally Posted by fluffybear2

Okay, I posted my last 2 FitDays--rip away. For the record, I am 61 years old and sedentary because I have very bad knees and have to use a cane.

No need to rip away - I'd rather provide you with insight into how you're currently providing for your body and how you might do better with good information, OK?

First you calorie intake is well below your basal requirements (for heart beat, body temp, etc.) - even at 61, and being sedentary, your body has obligate requirements for energy to do the most basic functional things each day before you even get out of bed.....when we fail to meet those energy requirements on a daily basis, recognizes famine whether that is our intention or not. We've evolved to survive food shortages, thus when we eat too little, the metabolism works to conserve energy until food is again available to meet obligate requirements.

As counter-intuitive as it sounds, it really is possible to not eat enough to lose weight effectively. And by effectively I mean in a way that the body does not stress-out that it's starving or within a famine condition. It's very possible to create an effective calorie deficit without drastically reducing calories to sub-optimal energy coupled with nutritionally bankrupt levels for essential nutrients.

The fitday you posted shows you're not meeting even the RDA (which is a minimum) for the vast majority of essential nutrients tracked in fitday - namely you're not consuming enough vitamin A, D, E, K or B-6; not enough Potassium, magnesium, zinc, copper, iron (for your age), calcium or folate. Your food intake is also painfully deficient for essential fatty acids (omega-3 and omega-6) and your overall fat intake is below the minimum recommended for brain and central nervous system function.

With less than 800-calories a day, you're setting yourself up for malnutrition - and at your age, that's a lot worse in the long-term than for someone half your age!

I'm certainly not going to tell you what to do....your body, your experiment....but if you were a family member or friend I cared about, I'd stronly suggest to you that you re-evaluate what you think is "healthy" about Kimkins and look for something that provides for your needs to keep you healthy while you lose some weight!

[fluffybear2]

Originally Posted by controlledcarb

No need to rip away - I'd rather provide you with insight into how you're currently providing for your body and how you might do better with good information, OK?

First you calorie intake is well below your basal requirements (for heart beat, body temp, etc.) - even at 61, and being sedentary, your body has obligate requirements for energy to do the most basic functional things each day before you even get out of bed.....when we fail to meet those energy requirements on a daily basis, recognizes famine whether that is our intention or not. We've evolved to survive food shortages, thus when we eat too little, the metabolism works to conserve energy until food is again available to meet obligate requirements.

As counter-intuitive as it sounds, it really is possible to not eat enough to lose weight effectively. And by effectively I mean in a way that the body does not stress-out that it's starving or within a famine condition. It's very possible to create an effective calorie deficit without drastically reducing calories to sub-optimal energy coupled with nutritionally bankrupt levels for essential nutrients.

The fitday you posted shows you're not meeting even the RDA (which is a minimum) for the vast majority of essential nutrients tracked in fitday - namely you're not consuming enough vitamin A, D, E, K or B-6; not enough Potassium, magnesium, zinc, copper, iron (for your age), calcium or folate. Your food intake is also painfully deficient for essential fatty acids (omega-3 and omega-6) and your overall fat intake is below the minimum recommended for brain and central nervous system function.

With less than 800-calories a day, you're setting yourself up for malnutrition - and at your age, that's a lot worse in the long-term than for someone half your age!

I'm certainly not going to tell you what to do....your body, your experiment....but if you were a family member or friend I cared about, I'd stronly suggest to you that you re-evaluate what you think is "healthy" about Kimkins and look for something that provides for your needs to keep you healthy while you lose some weight!

First of all I take vitamin supplements along with what I eat so FitDay does not tell the whole story. Secondly I rarely go below 800 calories. Today was an exception but not much of one. Third, my doctor has approved a VLCD for me because of my slow metabolism due to hypothyroidism. In fact I had been on a doctor approved VLCD earlier this year but found the particular one I was on boring because it consisted of a lot of packaged meals and shakes (BTW, it was not Medifast or Optifast). Fourth, that's about all I plan to say about this on the "fascination" thread except to perhaps post updates on my "experiment" from time to time.

oh, p.s.--I also wanted to mention that my FitDay isn't too much different from a lot of low carbers including those on Atkins and other popular plans.

[CarolynF]

I totally agree..Malnutrition is a very serious matter when we age. My very own minlaw lost 34 pounds in the last 5 years. She just doesn't eat very much..has lost her appetite and feels kinda sick, and has gastritis..She weighs 96 pounds and is 5 6"..She can barely stand up she is so weak..She can barely walk because of loss of muscle with her weight loss.

I can't tell you how many times I have taken her to the doctor and he tells her to eat more..but she can't do it now. She probably eats 800-900 calories a day..but the dr. wants her to eat 1500 for her weight..She won't do it.

She lives in Assisted Living now and they fix all her meals, so it's not that she isn't eating, and she takes an Ensure every night..which keeps her alive, I think. The rest of the ladies her age are doing great and look very healthy.

She used to eat quite a bit when she was on the farm, but then slowly started eating less and less..small breakie, apple for lunch, small dinner...It is so sad to see her just withering away. Sorry for the digression..

[Puppy]

Originally Posted by fluffybear2

My problem was not with frankenfoods or Atkins Nutrionals products, but with full-fat foodsI have never in my life eaten very many full-fat dairy products such as cream cheese, sour cream, real butter or cream, but on Atkins I was not only allowed those things, but many of the lc recipes I found incorporated them. Also I had not been used to fying my food or eating a lot of greasy food. I personally don't think Atkins pushed dairy or advocated frying or using a lot of oil or grease (I've read ALL his books-every last one of them), BUT he didn't discourage it either and so a lot of people got the notion that they could just go hog-wild and eat all the grease and gunk they wanted and that is what stalled them. I bought into that too, which of course was not a good idea. Like Kimkins, Atkins did not push exercise in his early books either, although Atkins nutritionals encourages it.

Also, I feel much better eating lean mean and cutting the fat off the meat as well as eating meat that is broiled or baked as Kimkins suggests. I doubt that I will limit my veggies as much as Kimkins suggests though. I think 3/4 to 1 cup a day is more reasonable.

In response to your reply to my post. I guess I read the text in red and didn't follow to comprehend the text in blue. I see it in black and white now and see that I did, indeed, misunderstand.

Good luck to you in your pursuit of good health!

[controlledcarb]

Originally Posted by fluffybear2

First of all I take vitamin supplements along with what I eat so FitDay does not tell the whole story. Secondly I rarely go below 800 calories. Today was an exception but not much of one. Third, my doctor has approved a VLCD for me because of my slow metabolism due to hypothyroidism. In fact I had been on a doctor approved VLCD earlier this year but found the particular one I was on boring because it consisted of a lot of packaged meals and shakes (BTW, it was not Medifast or Optifast). Fourth, that's about all I plan to say about this on the "fascination" thread except to perhaps post updates on my "experiment" from time to time.

oh, p.s.--I also wanted to mention that my FitDay isn't too much different from a lot of low carbers including those on Atkins and other popular plans.

Your body - your experiment - good luck!

[CarolynF]

Hi,

Well, LCF's Fascination Thread hit the big time..Kimkins Exposed thread..So, we might get lots of people taking their summer vacations and reading what you all had to say..

Opps..just re-read it..Yikes!!!

[Nady]

Originally Posted by CarolynF

Hi,

Well, LCF's Fascination Thread hit the big time..Kimkins Exposed thread..So, we might get lots of people taking their summer vacations and reading what you all had to say..Hurray for us!

OMG~

Kind of looks like a slam, to me. Maybe Ducky is right though~
~~~N

[controlledcarb]

Originally Posted by CarolynF

Hi,

Well, LCF's Fascination Thread hit the big time..Kimkins Exposed thread..So, we might get lots of people taking their summer vacations and reading what you all had to say..

Opps..just re-read it..Yikes!!!

Hmmmm......Wow?

[CarolynF]

Nady: Yes, I hadn't read the whole thing..Yikes!! is right..and we are right in the middle of it!!!

[LovelyLady]

Originally Posted by fluffybear2

Third, my doctor has approved a VLCD for me because of my slow metabolism due to hypothyroidism. In fact I had been on a doctor approved VLCD earlier this year but found the particular one I was on boring because it consisted of a lot of packaged meals and shakes (BTW, it was not Medifast or Optifast).

Your VLCD was doctor approved and that's okay for you. But that's not so for most people on Kimkins. They simply have no idea whether or not a VLCD is healthy for them or not. They are just taking Kimmer's, if that's her real name, word for it.

Good luck on your weight loss journey!

[LouieLouie2007]

I have followed this thread and the merged ones from their inception and all I have to say is keep up the good work ladies! If even one person is deterred from using that plan (and especially the PBTP) then it is worth it!

[Nady]

I don't like this~

How Low Carb Friends can justify maintaining threads such as these is unknown, especially when they claim their forum is the “best and friendliest source for low carbohydrate support, atkins low carb diet resources and motivation for lowcarb diets!”

I guess I had some sort of an idea that having this forum here (at LCF) offered a voice or two of sanity when KKers got too rigid with the diet~ After all, this isn't just an Atkins board~~

Is it a bad thing to have the Kimkins forum here?
~~~N

[Madam De Leon]

Originally Posted by Locarb4me

Kimmer seems to have tightened the belt now that she is off LCF. One has to wonder why.

My theory is: 1) lack of accountability to knowledgeable, experienced low carbers (here, they could call her on her more drastic measures and eventually wear down her credibility), and 2) since we all know starvation mode DOES happen after a relatively brief period of severe calorie & fat restriction, the only advice she can possibly give to those in a stall is "Go Lower!". Vicious and dangerous downward spiral.

Granted, I haven't read the entire AK thread yet, but what I have read so far (I'm up to page 71), it seems that as time goes on in that conversation, she continues to "develop" her plan. Re-read that thread, reading just her posts, and see what you think. I got the impression many times that she was just throwing out suggestions willy-nilly, and cherry-picking "facts" (or even making things up) to support her suggestions, and things just began to snowball. She'd make a suggestion, and the scales would move for the person she suggested it to, so she added that suggestion to her arsenal of weight loss weapons, and as time went on the small suggestions grew and grew, and became the plan behind the plan, no matter how dangerous it was.

She started out (supposedly) with Atkins '72 and Stillman's - but removed almost all of the fat from Atkins '72 (taking hundreds and hundreds of calories with it, along with both fat soluble vitains and essential fatty acids), and removed every bit of dairy from both Atkins and Stillman's, further reducing both calories and nutrient levels. K/E and Kimkins are simply not the same thing as Atkins '72 and Stillmans. Those were both developed to provide the bulk of the nutrients a person needed to maintain health while losing weight. Kimmer's plans don't even come close, even if you just follow the K/E or Kimkins plans on the sticky, and don't get into the PBTP.


As often as she requested to see someone's fitday when they'd complain of a stall, not once (at least as far as I've read in that thread so far) did she say you're not getting anywhere near enough nutrients, no wonder you're stalled, in fact she'd pooh-pooh the idea that starvation mode even existed. Not once did she say you're not eating enough food, no wonder you're constipated, you can't get food to move through you if you're not putting anything into your stomach. There was just constant advice to take laxatives and go lower on the calories, cut out all the "unnecessary" fats, weigh your meat before cooking to make sure you don't go over her magical 90g protein number, make sure you're carefully measuring your salad and green beans, so you don't get an extra carb here and there.

Oh and then there were a few times I've read so far in that thread when she said it was a "calorie game" - That was really disturbing to me, it sounds exactly like the "game" my anorexic daughter was playing, just to see how low she could go. This isn't a game to see how low we can go and still survive the nutrient deprivation. Even taking a multi-vitamin-mineral supplement won't help that much, because they simply don't work that well on their own - you need food with sufficient nutrients in it to even absorb the nutrients in the vitamin tablet.

If it's a calorie game, then you needn't worry at all about eating vast quantities of green salad or green beans - there's no way your stomach could hold enough of either of those to put you over a reasonable calorie limit! If it's a carb thing, then you needn't be concerned about reasonable quantities of fat in the diet. Why limit both so severely? And then put such strict limits on protein too?

Everyone's different, that's why we have so many people who have taken bits from different plans and developed a plan that works for them. But this very low everything diet is extremely dangerous territory.

[Locarb4me]

SUPER post, Madame De Leon!

[CarolynF]

Originally Posted by Locarb4me

SUPER post, Madame De Leon!

I agree..Plus, it seems as though Kimmer is ALL about the numbers on the scale.
Period..That's it!!

So sad to congratulate a person on their weight loss when they are doing it in a starvation way!!! It's like people in a concentration camp congratulating each other for losing weight..Craziness!!!!!!

[Nady]

Originally Posted by CarolynF

So sad to congratulate a person on their weight loss when they are doing it in a starvation way!!! It's like people in a concentration camp congratulating each other for losing weight..Craziness!!!!!!

But~ isn't that what ANA's do?
~~~N

[Locarb4me]

I wonder if it's possible to lock and archive the old Ask Kimmer folder so that it can only be accessed and read for informational purposes. And a sticky disclaimer at the top. I'm not much for censorship (or whatever you'd term it) but now I'm thinking that perhaps LCF ought to do it's members and readers a favor and post some warnings on any Kimkins folder at the top.

You can't legislate foolishness or wisdom, I know. But so many (including me) get sucked into that WOE thinking it's the Holy Grail of Low Carb eating/weightloss. And benign. Then...they find out the hard way, it's not.

Kimkins Tweaked by experienced lo-carbers, I have no problem with.

[LovelyLady]

Originally Posted by Locarb4me

Kimkins Tweaked by experienced lo-carbers, I have no problem with.

But according to Kimmer then it can't be called Kimkins, can it? For that I am so glad! She actually did us a HUGE favor by saying that. I'd been calling what I was doing Kimkins for a while, when actually it wasn't. I was putting up a fight for Kimkins when I wasn't even truly doing it myself. Thank God I was finally able to see through the smokescreen.

[Locarb4me]

But according to Kimmer then it can't be called Kimkins, can it?

Nope. And I know that's from the horse's mouth, I saw her post that!

But most of us wouldn't quibble over it the way Madame K would. I consider it a sign of an overinflated ego to say making any tweaks or changes makes it "not her plan".

[golite]

Originally Posted by Locarb4me

Nope. And I know that's from the horse's mouth, I saw her post that!

But most of us wouldn't quibble over it the way Madame K would. I consider it a sign of an overinflated ego to say making any tweaks or changes makes it "not her plan".

However, if you've tweaked it and it's no longer her plan, why not give credit where credit is due, Yourself!

Why do people not see how illogical it is to give credit to someone whom they're NOT obeying/listening too?

Some of my friends have received permission over the years to change the lyrics to many famous songs. They could use the music and some of the words, but had to sign a contract avowing to change the title of the song as the owners said " Once you change the words, it isn't our song anymore"

[anipomoni]

Originally Posted by fluffybear2

Third, my doctor has approved a VLCD for me because of my slow metabolism due to hypothyroidism.

You're right, you need less calories with hypo. But "less" does not equal VLC. I think I read it's about 200 calories less than someone with a normally functioning thyroid.
Being hypo is even more of a reason to make sure you are eating enough. VLC's negatively impact thyroid function. Kimmer, admittedly, takes a very high dosage of Synthroid (325 mcg).

[la.lady]

This just keeps going on and on, but I do hope that you have found a healthy way of losing weight, and something that you can live with the rest of your life. Such as I have with CAD...

[Nady]

Originally Posted by Nady

Is it a bad thing to have the Kimkins forum here?

Been reading the comments on the article~ I guess yes, it is a bad idea~ makes us look like hypocrites.

I just PM'd the mods with the link~ they should know what's being said~
~~~N