Why the fascination with Kimmer?

[cleochatra]

I just want to interject that low Glycemic Load (GL) is not low-fat; at least when following Dr Thompson's plan.

Welcome, Chris! It is nice to meet you.

[MorganMacLeoid]

At the risk of getting flamed six ways from Sunday, (a saying my Mom often uses, not sure what it means.. lol), I've been embarking upon research into another aspect of Kimkins and one that I feel fully explains the "fascination" with Kimmer.

I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, though I do have a background in psychology and hope one day to return and complete my schooling.

This is my own, very unscientific study but the comparisons I have already seen firsthand lead me to suspect and theorize that I am most likely correct.

I hope the mod's don't pull this post, as I feel more and more every day that this is one of the most inherent dangers present within this issue. (Aside from the obvious health issues)

I've posted it to my blog but I don't want to link and be thought to be "hawking" my blog from the forum, so I'll post it here as well.

Part 1 -
This topic has caught my interest recently so I decided to do a little research, nothing formal, just some googling and quoting for now, while I begin a more in-depth look at this. And yes, this is a rather biased study to prove a hypothesis that I have, so take it for what it's worth.

Quotes:
Source Article
"I have concluded that cults are much more prevalent in our society than most of us realize. They usually don't look like cults. Their appearance is deceptive. As I use the word, cults are groups, large or small, that have beliefs and priorities that are out of sync with the real world. They are dictatorial, rigid, and employ mind-control tactics such as shame, extended drills, excessive repetition of routine activities, control over social environment, loss of privilege, and manipulation of social status."

Cults damage mindfulness, a word which I use to encompass qualities such as judgment, a sense of priority, relevancy, compassion, the capacity to Integrate seemingly unconnected facts into an enriched whole, and a multitude of other mental processes. A central problem is that this programming occurs beneath the person's level of awareness. A person who has been subjected to a cult doesn't know it and is usually offended if the subject is brought up.

Source Article
Certain psychological themes which recur in these various historical contexts also arise in the study of cults. Cults can be identified by three characteristics:

1. a charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose their power;
2. a process I call coercive persuasion or thought reform;
3. economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.


Milieu Control
The first method characteristically used by ideological totalism is milieu control: the control of all communication within a given environment. In such an environment individual autonomy becomes a threat to the group. There is an attempt to manage an individual's inner communication. Milieu control is maintained and expressed by intense group process, continuous psychological pressure, and isolation by geographical distance, unavailability of transportation, or even physical restraint. Often the group creates an increasingly intense sequence of events such as seminars, lectures and encounters which makes leaving extremely difficult, both physically and psychologically. Intense milieu control can contribute to a dramatic change of identity which I call doubling: the formation of a second self which lives side by side with the former one, often for a considerable time. When the milieu control is lifted, elements of the earlier self may be reasserted.

[MorganMacLeoid]

Part 2 -

Creating a Pawn
A second characteristic of totalistic environments is mystical manipulation or planned spontaneity. This is a systematic process through which the leadership can create in cult members what I call the psychology of the pawn. The process is managed so that it appears to arise spontaneously; to its objects it rarely feels like manipulation. Religious techniques such as fasting, chanting and limited sleep are used. Manipulation may take on a special intense quality in a cult for which a particular chosen' human being is the only source of salvation.

Three further aspects of ideological totalism are "sacred science," "loading of the language," and the principle of "doctrine over person." Sacred science is important because a claim of being scientific is often needed to gain plausibility and influence in the modern age. The Unification Church is one example of a contemporary tendency to combine dogmatic religious principles with a claim to special scientific knowledge of human behavior and psychology. The term loading the language' refers to literalism and a tendency to deify words or images. A simplified, cliche-ridden language can exert enormous psychological force reducing every issue in a complicated life to a single set of slogans that are said to embody the truth as a totality.

Books I plan on reading

The more I read, the more convinced I am that my hypothesis, now theory, is correct, which worries me.

I'll continue to update my thoughts on this as my research progresses.

What does this have to do with LC and diets?

Well.......

Have you ever belonged to a diet group that:

Reads private messages between members and takes action / issues "punishments" based on the content of those messages?

Evokes feelings of shame, weakness, or unworthiness if you "fail" to meet the groups standards or rules?

Engages in behaviour that is contrary to popular thought / medical review or societal wisdom?

Is directed in manners of communication (meaning both subject of communication and to whom the communications are made) by the leader of the group?

Operates in an atmosphere of seclusion and or secrecy?

Is told to remain within said seclusion when the "real world" thought begins to permeate the group?

Is coerced in any way, shape or form, to contribute monetarily to the leader? (This includes "donation games" and challenges)

Seems to have multiple personalities for different genres of communication? (i.e., loving and supportive within the secluded atmosphere and hostile / aggressive outside)

Disregards personal safety in an effort to reach the groups goals faster?

Does not allow its members to ask "hard" questions that threaten the dogma, rules, guidelines or" conventional wisdom" of the group?

Has members who repeatedly act as personal "guards' or messengers of the leader, especially when said leader is placed on the defensive outside of the group?

If you answered yes to these questions - there's a problem.

(sorry the links didn't carry through)

[sammymomma]

I will be safer if I say I follow Stillmans...

soooo

I follow Stillmans

stillman's 14 Day Shape Up Plan is basically kimkins.

[JaneJane]

Carolyn, I got my old Atkins 72 book out and am going to read it again. I need to learn to eat right for the rest of my life.

Thanks, Cutie. I am going to do this right. You are definitely setting a good example.

SoHappy, I edited my post about Christin with additional info about her eating in maintanence. She has been maintaining for four months. She said her calories flux between 1100-1400.

[The Bunnell Farm]

What about the Kimmer Diet Coke addiction aspect in all of this. She hates water and drinks Diet Coke and recommends same if I'm not mistaken. This could be the core to all of this insanity. 'Coke and artificial sweetener addiction' and it's effect on her Psyche. Pure physical-emotional-mental stimulant addiction and all of the effects that it causes!(the snowball off the mountain)

[CarolynF]

Gloria...My goodness..Thank God you are all right.

I don't think people realize the dangers of taking laxatives, etc., but you are
a walking case of this.

We are happy you are here..There are many great safe plans that don't cause
you bodily harm.

[SoHappy]

Originally Posted by JaneJane

Carolyn, I got my old Atkins 72 book out and am going to read it again. I need to learn to eat right for the rest of my life.

Thanks, Cutie. I am going to do this right. You are definitely setting a good example.

SoHappy, I edited my post about Christin with additional info about her eating in maintanence. She has been maintaining for four months. She said her calories flux between 1100-1400.

Still sadly and pathetically low in calories, in my shocked opinion, for a young woman in maintanence. Although I know we are all very different, but how low will she have to eat when she becomes middle-aged, and then becomes post-menopausal? These are stages of life when our metabolism usually slows down a bit just naturally. I hope her natural metabolism hasn't been harmed by her time on very low calorie.

But maybe it'll spring back. She's worked hard to get herself slim. And I know she doesn't want to take any mis-steps now in her daily diet and start the weight piling back on. Just hope she can get to a time when she can eat quite a bit more and still stay slim. Get that metabolism back up there where it should be.

[Cutie]

Originally Posted by cleochatra

I just want to interject that low Glycemic Load (GL) is not low-fat; at least when following Dr Thompson's plan.

Welcome, Chris! It is nice to meet you.

if that's in reference to my post needing to be clarified...thanks!

yes, my atkins/low GL cycles were definitely higher in fat and cals

[cleochatra]

I think Chris mentioned that. Sorry for not quoting, cutie!

{{{gloria}}} I am so appreciative that you are all right! Thank you so much for telling us.

Good posts, Morgan! I do think she has a very compelling personality. I think she draws in with sweetness and keeps people there through control and promises of success. Frankly,if she was a coach for a sports team, I think she could take the team to victory. On a VLCD with no food, they'd just pass out all over the field.

Go TEAM!

[sammymomma]

why low fat low carb works for me-
I have no cravings....I cannot stop t 1 piece of pepperoni or cheese///

so I dont have it.
It works for me...but I dont use laxatives as a daily drink...ewww

I think Kimkins is safe..

I am done

[Cutie]

Originally Posted by principessa54

I just had to pop in and say thank you for the kind words. I am Gloria (my middle name). I was in ER this week. I was actually in unbelievable extruiating pain this past Saturday with a fever and it continued until Monday. I couldn't walk, I couldn't sit and it felt like a knife was going in my left side. I had to have an ultrasound, blood work and yes gawd forbid a rectum examine because my hemoglobin was so low that they thought I was passing blood. This is all IMO directly related to taking laxatives, epsom salt "shooters" and senna tea. I was so focused on the number on the scale and "stalling" after I lost 50 pounds and all of the success everyone had I thought I must be plugged up. I followed k/e for months and then did bc but couldn't do it because I was exercising for 90 minutes every day and was starving. I am an adult and except responsibility for my actions for taking the advice of someone without a medical degree but live and learn. I am grateful that you are all here and posting your experiences because I would have never had the courage to post my comment on JM's podcast. I thought others should be warned. Be safe and healthy.

thanks for letting us know you're ok!

[cleochatra]

Originally Posted by sammymomma

why low fat low carb works for me-
I have no cravings....I cannot stop t 1 piece of pepperoni or cheese///

so I dont have it.
It works for me...but I dont use laxatives as a daily drink...ewww

I think Kimkins is safe..

I am done

You most likely have sensitivities to processed meats and to dairy, which would account for cravings. It's not always about fat versus no fat.

Fat doesn't cause cxravings. It satiates and triggers pleasure sensors in the brain, and helps food with its staying power in the gut. It also doesn't readily break down into sugar in the bloodstream.

My guess is that you are sensitive to certain processed meats (could be hidden sugars and nitrates) and possibly to yeasty/moldy/dairy foods.

[MorganMacLeoid]

why low fat low carb works for me-
I have no cravings....I cannot stop t 1 piece of pepperoni or cheese///

I don't have any cravings either, I'm doing Atkins induction. I will have cravings if I start using a lot of sweeteners, like aspartame (diet cokes - and I love those Pepsi Jazz Black Cherry Vanillas.. ooo), splenda, etc.

Even though the sweeteners are technically allowed in small amounts, even a very low amount will trigger cravings in me, not everyone.

I think there are a myriad of triggers for cravings and they are widely different for different people, but I don't think fat is a trigger, unless you're thinking things like cream cheese, sweetened heavy cream, etc. Fats - but sweet at the same time.

[Magicsmom]

Originally Posted by sammymomma

stillman's 14 Day Shape Up Plan is basically kimkins.

Yes, it is basically Kimkins, a point which many here have made; that Kimmer took a plan that was already in existence and put her name on it. Bad form. Also, please take note that the 14 Day Shape Up Plan is meant to be done for only two weeks. Kimmer encourages people to do the plan until they reach goal, which for some people could add up to a year or more. It is not safe to do it longer than the short term Dr. Stillman recommends.

[Bobbin]

Wow, I'm just catching up, but what a great post!!

Originally Posted by Cutie

another interesting post on the podcast comments today:

To all Kimkins member reading this.
Please all of you…do the research!! I implore you. I am a member and and my discovery of the truth came after what started as a plan to speak my mind in defense of Kimkins on LCF. I started reading the “fascination” thread and at first was disgusted by what I saw as a witch hunt. Admittedly a LOT of the posts are nasty and ill informed. Not to mention scary in their hostility. But if you take the time to read it ALL (It took me the better part of a week) there are some truly intelligent people there and plenty of verifiable evidence that Kimkins is a scam and it’s creator is a liar. A very dangerous person who is selling advice based on a plan she herself didn’t even follow when she supposedly lost all of that weight. You can find a link to her fitday on LCF and it is truly shocking. During the dates of her “weight loss” she ate an average of 1000 calories a day (many days higher) and 80 grams of fat. She ate lots of real mayo and put heavy cream in her coffee. There’s nothing wrong with this…but it’s hardly the advice she now gives on her website. You will see evidence in her fitday of a maintenance plan that includes binging and then either water fasting or “diet coke fasting” …to this day. Does this sound like the type of person who should be giving paid weight loss advice to desperate people who are seeking help and a healthy way of eating? No one is more upset than I. I consider myself to be an intelligent, well informed person and somehow i became almost brainwashed in my desperation to finally win my lifelong battle with fat. The woman who is supposedly agoraphobic (to this day no one has EVER been allowed to meet Kimmer in real life because of this) refers in her fitday to trips to Mexico and hosting dinner parties and BBQ’s for 50 people. I’m not angry with Kimmer. I am angry with myself. No one held a gun to my head. And I’m angry and disgusted that I was one of the ones who welcomed the newbies and encouraged them to “stick to the plan”. I still haven’t decided what I am personally going to do about this. I feel like I need to take some responsibility and tangibly do something. But right now, my head is still reeling.
Once again, before you criticize here…do your research. The evidence is overwhelming and more and more is coming to light. And before you jump to the defense “No matter who Kimmer is, The plan has worked for so many members!” Of course it works…it’s a Duh factor…you’re going to lose weight if you stop eating! I challenge you to read 100 posted fitdays and see how many go over 500 calories. And then look at how many are in the 200 calorie range.

Jimmy I applaud you today. It must have been tremendously difficult for you to do what you did today. But you have helped more people than you could ever know. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for having the guts to do what was right.

[Locarb4me]

Originally Posted by controlledcarb

I wouldn't hold your breath. (and no, I'm not being snarky!)

It'll never happen. No reputable doctor would endorse her program. Just re-read what Dr. Barry said. That's it in a nutshell.

I ran the original Kimkins eating plan by my Gastroenterologist yesterday and he just sighed. He said it's quite likely I gave myself gallstones by following such a low fat diet for 5 weeks. He's sending me in for lots of bloodwork and an ultrasound Monday.

Thanks, Kimmer.

[Locarb4me]

Originally Posted by cleochatra

I was told to pop in. I just want to say thank you for the kind words and support, but it's not a big deal. It's nothing you wouldn't have done. I think it shows when a lot of special people never give up trying to do the right thing, only good can come from it.

I want to take this moment to thank the people who run lowcarbfriends. Tom, Cheri (my sweetpea), and Dottie are wonderful people, and have endured so much during this year. I hope they know just how very special they are to me and to everyone else who posts here.

And thanks to you who make a difference every day.

There are myriad places in the cyberworld. Only one lowcarbfriends.

I'd call for a group hug but someone grabbed my butt last time.

Cleo, kudos to you for playing a large part in all of this. Good job!!

[CJane]

Originally Posted by Locarb4me

It'll never happen. No reputable doctor would endorse her program. Just re-read what Dr. Barry said. That's it in a nutshell.

I ran the original Kimkins eating plan by my Gastroenterologist yesterday and he just sighed. He said it's quite likely I gave myself gallstones by following such a low fat diet for 5 weeks. He's sending me in for lots of bloodwork and an ultrasound Monday.

Thanks, Kimmer.

Yup. I had my gallbladder removed due to stones (and problems with them getting stuck in bile ducts) after having been on a very, very similar low fat, low cal diet.

There are just SO MANY health risks to Kimkins and diets like Kimkins. I still cannot fathom how anyone can justify the safety if this WOE, but I am certain there would be no doctor on earth willing to do it and still keep his/her license to practice medicine.

I wish you the best of luck with your exams and tests.

[Locarb4me]

Originally Posted by CarolynF

What's really unfortunate is that many of the Kimkinners haven't got a clue what LCing is all about. You really have to understand how to properly do a lowcarb diet. It is such a different way of dieting and that's why Dr. A. wrote that big fat book!!

It's like sending people into the wilderness and giving them one piece of misinformation. They need to read all the facts..and follow Dr. A's advice.

I'm so sorry for Gloria...Hope she is doing okay and won't have any long term
effects..

As usual, really good post.

I'm one of those silly naive novices to Low Carb eating that got completely and totally taken in by the promises I read in the WW article and by the Home Page at Kimkins. I thought if she had been doing it "that long", she was an authority, and knew what she was talking about.

Never in my wildest dreams did I expect to stumble onto a huge web of deception and dangerous diet advice. Yes, I sure did lose 10 lbs quickly. Then trouble started.

All I can say now is, the contributors to this thread, Jimmy Moore and the whistleblowers all deserve a lot of credit for sticking it out and making sure that all the right questions have been asked, and the issues raised.

There are a few posts over at Kimkins supporting her and schmoozing her up about this whole thing. I wonder how long they'll be singing her praises in another month....4 months...a year. Or perhaps after their next doctor's visit or heaven forbid...hospital visit like poor Gloria. I sure hope you're feeling better now and no permanent damage was done. And THANK YOU for posting your experience here and on Jimmy's blog.

It's for them that I started this site. It exists for all of you to have a safe place and comfort. It would be hard to receive Kimkins support at a generic diet site. A few people would be nice, but the majority would make you feel unwelcome. Not here.

The interview was very, very difficult for me. Jimmy had taken some serious personal attacks for his involvement with Kimkins. I did the interview as a way to thank him. You can see that that worked out, LOL.

She just can't resist getting her nasty little digs in, can she. The more that woman opens her mouth, the uglier she seems to me.

The TRUTH is the only thing that is going to win this. Since Kimmer isn't going to be truthful, then those who have been victimized (and no, I don't think that is too strong a term to use) MUST speak out.

I have long used that quote, "The surest way for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke.

That sure applies here.

[golite]

Originally Posted by MorganMacLeoid

Part 2 -

Creating a Pawn
A second characteristic of totalistic environments is mystical manipulation or planned spontaneity. This is a systematic process through which the leadership can create in cult members what I call the psychology of the pawn. The process is managed so that it appears to arise spontaneously; to its objects it rarely feels like manipulation. Religious techniques such as fasting, chanting and limited sleep are used. Manipulation may take on a special intense quality in a cult for which a particular chosen' human being is the only source of salvation.

I know people here are rejoicing over JM's "apology" post and I would be also if I believed it.
It doesn't add up, it seems too contrived between he and Kimmer.
She attempted to act a bit surprised while thanking him for the "heads-up"
Her behavior toward anyone who disagrees with her in any way has been consistent over the course of many years to be, retaliation, vindictiveness and a quick reassertion of control over her followers.

They announce the "big announcement" together as though it was something that would benefit both.

Yet, we are to believe that in a weekend, JM came to his senses, repented, recanted, told her all about how he was going to apologize and denounce her plan and her only reaction was "I disagree with you about my plan, but we love you at kimkins, you're welcome anytime" ? ? ?

A complete about-face by both in less than 3 days?

Do I believe in miracles? Yes I do, but this isn't sitting well within my spirit.
I want it to be real and true, but the evidence weighs heavily against it.

[mermaid]

Thanks for your excellent posts Anani and Chris. You are obviously very intelligent people, and what you have said carries a lot of "weight" with me. Sounds like the diet Kimmer originally did, if she had stuck to that like glue on her forum, right now all this disturbing news would not be surfacing. There would be happy, healthy dieters for the most part, who could easily maintain on Atkins '72 or something like that. Very sad that she has obliterated what would be a great plan FOR PEOPLE WHO CANNOT LOSE ON ATKINS.

Originally Posted by JaneJane

This is definitely a newbie question. I hope you don't mind me asking this here. I could ask it in another Kimkins thread, but I wanted your opinions since I have heard a lot of "science stuff" backing up your concerns and I know you'll be honest (brutally)

What is the difference between Stillman and Kimkins? And if one is dangerous is the other? What about the group here cycling Kimkins and Atkins 72? Would this make it less dangerous for the body?

I have to admit that I hear what you are saying and believe long term this WOE is not good, but there is a part of me that is hesitant to give it up completely because I am so close and I am trying to decide whether to gamble. I know, I know...it's not worth it, but part of it is a head game (directly related to ED's). I am upping my fat/calories some (last night I had a steak and didn't worry about the fat or eating beef) but I don't want to go whole hog (no pun intended).

If this is not the appropriate place to ask you can PM me, although I don't think I can PM back since I haven't posted enough. Thanks!

I have looked at Stillman's and it was similar to Kimkins, but more austere. Kimkins allows enough fat to make the diet work, Stillman's does not. Some might disagree, and that's okay.

Presently, on the thread I think you are referring to, there has been a lot of success cycling between Kimkins (or Stillman's) and ATkins or Atkins '72. It seems that cycling in this way really gets things cooking! This week I have lost two pounds on Atkins, even during TOM. Before doing my 3 short Kimkins cycles, I could not lose a thing on Atkins anymore.

Through Wendykp and Inatic, I was exposed to Lyle McDonald's theories about cycling up and down in calories/fat/carbs. I think the BFFM folks do a similar thing, but I don't know a lot about either one at this point. I'm just starting to read about and try some of it out. So I guess now that Kimmer has blighted her own highly effective diet by trying to turn some people into anorexics, maybe these other WOEs can help people who can't lose on Atkins. I think Atkins should be tried first, since it's the easiest WOE to learn and follow for life. For newbies: Just do searches on these terms/people to learn more for free and get all of the support you need. Start a new thread if you don't find things discussed that you're curious about.

I have a lot more thoughts, but have to get off the computer now. Hope this helps!