Why the fascination with Kimmer?

[rollendonner]

losing weight too fast can cause heart attack too.

That information comes from Dr. Bernstein, who advocates a low carb diet. He says if you plan to lose weight fast, it would be wise to take a baby aspirin every day along with 400 iu Vitamin E 3 times a day.

Just FYI

Birdy...

[lala]

<semi thread jack>

OK everyone i just wanted to let everyone know that our own beautifulme has started a thread for us to have the healing go on HEAL THE PAIN. so you all know you are all welcome to post your story there and we can CONTINUE our healing together

<end thread jack>

[rightnow]

Originally Posted by vernswifevickie

You completely missed my point. The point is that if you are convinced that the plan is unsafe as you claim to be you should be upset that the plan is being offered ANYWHERE...not just on the kimkins site

Yes, you make a good point here.

But what many of the previous posts said was that much of the angst on this thread stems from people trying to debate the merits here for years, and being so attacked by her or her fans in response, that threads were deleted for flamewars, and eventually nobody said much in dispute because there was no point.

The staff was kind enough to give Kim a whole area of her own, but in retrospect I'm tempted to wonder if that was partly to reduce her total dominance of every thread in the general area. And once that happened, it became something of a safe space for that focus.

Lastly, and this may be the most important part... they do disagree with the advice, and they are indeed posting HERE, IN the Kimkins section on this thread, of their views. It's confined to this one thread, which is pretty much the only option they have.

[CJane]

Originally Posted by AuntieMame

Why would you have a gallbladder attack?

From: http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/gallstones.html

Low-fat diet is major cause

Fair, fat and forty. That is the general perception of someone with gallstones. For this reason gallstones, often found in fat people, are usually attributed to a diet high in fats. In fact this is the opposite of the truth: Gallstones are caused by eating too little fat rather than too much.

Fats are not soluble in water. Before dietary fat can be digested, it has to be emulsified. Bile is used for this purpose. The liver makes bile continuously and stores it in the gall bladder until such time as it is needed. However, if a low-fat diet is eaten, that bile remains in the gall bladder. Gallstones are formed when the gall bladder is not emptied on a regular basis. In people who continually resort to low-fat diets, bile is stored for long periods in the gall bladder – and it stagnates. In time – and it is really quite a short time – a 'sludge' begins to form. This then coagulates to form small stones which then become bigger. The speed with which this happens was dramatically demonstrated in a trial at several American University hospitals.[1] None of the subjects had any sign of gall bladder disease at the start of the study. However, after only eight weeks of low-fat dieting, more than a quarter had developed gallstones. Where they were fed intravenously, half developed gall bladder sludge after three weeks, and all had developed it by six weeks. Nearly half of those who developed sludge also formed gallstones.

I know it's true...it happened to me.

I had a stone stuck in a bile duct, and ended up having pancreatitis, and ultimately having my gallbladder removed. I had been on a very strict low calorie, low fat diet.

[jayed]

Originally Posted by vernswifevickie

You completely missed my point. The point is that if you are convinced that the plan is unsafe as you claim to be you should be upset that the plan is being offered ANYWHERE...not just on the kimkins site

I think it has been said many times here that the plan as written may be safe/healthy/etc. but much of the advice on how "best" to do the plan is extreme. Someone else termed it "the plan behind the plan."

[Zenngrl]

Am I jealous that a person is lying, swindling and misrepresenting herself and the diet she claims is better than bypass surgery? Um Heyall No. I am concerned, because I too considered doing Kimkins before I read what it actually was and realized that cutting calories that drastically would be the worst thing I could do to become healthier. The people or at least the majority have a legitmate concern for others well being, where Kimmer apparently does not. IMO.

[beautifulme]

Originally Posted by jayed

I think it has been said many times here that the plan as written may be safe/healthy/etc. but much of the advice on how "best" to do the plan is extreme. Someone else termed it "the plan behind the plan."

Yes..what she said..thanks.I could not have said it better.

[RockyMtnAngelEyes]

Can I just say something here. .I don't want to offend anyone, and maybe it's just me, so forgive me if I am way of base here..

But it seems to me that there are new posters coming in here, some brand new to the board, some not, trying to cause this to turn into some sort of fight between them and us.... Trying to get it back to what it was for awhile with people so angry that some may have gone overboard.. The thread has taken a turn that what I'm getting, isn't to the liking of Heidis 'defenders', so to speak...

Vicki, I'm not taking anything out of context, and I have seen all the, what I consider, very bad 'advise', written by Heidi herself.. Both her AND on her site. Is it all still there? I have no idea... I know someone went in and cleared out PM's where she had given this 'advise' to people... I was contacted about it personally by a member... So possibly the posts are gone as well... It is however still all here, on this site...

And at the risk of repeating myself.. I have NEVER said the plan, as ORIGANILLY WRITTEN, is bad.. It's all the other 'advise' Heidi gives.. The plan behind the plan, as someone put it, so well, I might add.. I think we're trying to get that point across, not the things that are picked out here and there, and ARE taken out of context...

Scotty, why come in here and accuse people of being jealous? Ya know, I've always noticed that's one of the first things that comes out of the mouths of people, because they have no other ammo.. Just like Heidi is always making hateful comments on people 'stress eating' or telling them, 'go eat your cheese burger', to name just 2... Please know, that is NOT an attack on you at all.. I don't know you... It's just my observation of life...

I'm not now, nor have I ever been jealous of anyone, for any reason, To me it's not an emotion I care to even have.. What's the use? I'm rarely even envious of people...

I don't have anything to be jealous of, IMO.. I'm a nice person, and honest person, I'm a great friend, I have a great family and friends, both here and IRL, that are here to support me, in a healthy way...

[ItsTheWooo]

Originally Posted by emily1965

I guess I’ll go next. I’ve talked about parts of my history on the boards before, but never all of it.
<snip>

I just wanted to say, my heart *literally* sank into my stomach when I read your story. You are an amazing person to endure that and still be... here.
I am amazed by people who go through pain like that, and are still standing strong and proud. I'm so the opposite, that it... I can only feel as if I am standing before someone almost more than human.

Yea, you're amazing is all I wanted to say. Thanks for sharing that with the group.

[Lisa Marie]

Originally Posted by scotty89

I agree 100% All I see here is a bunch of jealous people. Kimkins is a great plan, and she is a great person. Losing 4# weekly feels real good. The best money I ever spent.

Then clearly you're seeing what you want to see. I've seen a lot of concern and support in this thread.

[RockyMtnAngelEyes]

I wanted to add, that if it looks like I am 'picking' on Vickie and Scott, I'm not.. I'm sorry if it might appear this way.. I'm sure there are other posts, that I've forgotten about, but those were the 2 that were freshest in my mind..

No disrespect meant in any way, to either of you...

[lala]

Originally Posted by RockyMtnAngelEyes

I'm not now, nor have I ever been jealous of anyone, for any reason, To me it's not an emotion I care to even have.. What's the use? I'm rarely even envious of people...

I don't have anything to be jealous of, IMO.. I'm a nice person, and honest person, I'm a great friend, I have a great family and friends, both here and IRL, that are here to support me, in a healthy way...

PERFECTLY spoken!

[NDSunflowers]

So I am sorry if I struck a chord with you, didn't mean to degrade you by my comment. And you opened my eyes to the fact that maybe some have had success and are back on the wagon, again. Been there, done that.

SallyK - no, no... no worries! It wasn't a bad"chord" - just was a comment that stuck out as I was reading all these posts and I had to comment too. I'm sorry I wasn't clear.

[ItsTheWooo]

Regarding the DC & damage issue...
Diet soda might *slightly* damage teeth, but it is such an incredibly weak acid that the effect is negligable - it is no worse then, say, the natural acidity of fruits.

Also, the acidity of food does *not* effect the acidity of our bodies, so any worry about acidosis or alkalosis from food pH is diet guru fiction.

Vomiting, on the other hand, does and can destroy teeth if done extensively. Hydrochloric acid is an extremely *strong* acid (actually I think the pH may be 0 right?... just wikied and it's saying 2. Either way, it's incredibly potent).

Compared to soda, mildly acidic, and normal food acid... stomach acid is just so caustic and destructive to the upper GI that there really is no comparison 'tween soda drinking and vomiting from GBS or bulimia...

[Zenngrl]

*Putting Diet Coke Plus back on the grocery list*

[SPECK]

I want to add something to my previous post. (and I have read this entire thread- thankfully daily or I couldn't/wouldn't do it) lol

I really don't have a problem with Kimmer's Plan. In this society, every thinks "their" plan is the "healthiest". There are some people who thinks Atkins is terrible because of ---- well we all know. There are people who absolutely swear that the food pyramid is all wrong. We could go on and on and on and on. I don't think her plan is the only one out there that people could question. Nutrisystem? Ummmm boxed food not a problem? Again, on and on. It's a losing battle. Weight/Diet programs are going to be around a long time. So as far as Kimmer's plan being unhealthy, I think that should be given a rest.

As for pictures, weight loss testimony- I think that would be more of an issue. Credibility should be the only concern in my opinion.

[Nady]

Something that scares me~ the idea that someone already leaning (or totally involved) in anorexic eating behaviors might see the extreme version of Kimkins as legitimizing their WOE. Always before, I was told that crash diets weren't for long term use, the ultra low calorie ones for 3-5 days only~ But with Kimkins, there doesn't seem to be any time limit~ it's more of a *how low can you go* kind of thing~

So, she's on the front cover of a national publication and all of a sudden, 500 calorie are okay. Sounds like just what an anorexic wants to hear~ they're not suffering from an ED at all~ Kimmer said that's how to get the fat off~

And sadly, every interview I've ever watched with an anorexic, they all say they think they're too fat~
~~~N

[ItsTheWooo]

Originally Posted by arcbeav

I didn't say it was. I said (or tried to, anyway) that the study posted by Regina showed that it became the primary one if protein intake was too low.

Oh, your quote was:
"Regina posted a study a while ago on her blog that showed that our hunger was driven primarily by our protein intake. "
The "primarily" threw me off and made me believe you were arguing that protein is the ... well, primary... control of appetite when this is not correct (it is fat, if metabolism of any nutrient will control energy stability and subsequent hunger... it's fat). This is why ketogenic (deep fat burning) diets are used to control a number of diseases where there is a problem with hypometabolism or energy-instability: epilepsy and mood disorders (not to mention hypoglycemia and obesity). The mood stabilizing and antiepileptic effects of the ketogenic diet comes from increased brain metabolism of energy, and resultant stability in electrical activity in the brain.

I specifically asked him about what happens if excessive amounts of protein were eaten. He categorically said, with respect to excess protein being converted to glucose - "Doesn't happen".

Well, then, to pose a hypothetical question... if excess protein is not converted to blood sugar (thereby raising both insulin and glucagon and potentially complicating weight/health problems)... what happens to it?

BTW, pretty much all of the "high protein is bad" studies are done in the context of high carb or SAD. We (or I was, anyway) are talking in the context of a low carb diet.

Did you read the abstract? It has nothing to do with carbs. It is demonstrated over and over that increased protein intake (that is, above sufficient levels of protein to meet need for aminos and sugar) will overstimulate the HPA axis and thereby cause complications (especially in pregnancy...). This is one reason women are advised not to be in ketosis during preganancy if possible: fear of the stress on the fetus.

This is also why high protein, low fat/low carb diets are known to cause the "grouchiness"; the effect on stress response of the body.
On the other hand, diets with lower protein (adequate) and higher fat, the opposite is observed; mood stabilizing and elevating.

[rightnow]

Originally Posted by SPECK

So as far as Kimmer's plan being unhealthy, I think that should be given a rest.

As for pictures, weight loss testimony- I think that would be more of an issue. Credibility should be the only concern in my opinion.

The two issues relate.

I also don't see why it needs to be said yet again that the plan-on-paper -- at least, the high-cal (1000?) plan -- is not really in dispute; even those who don't agree with it, see that everybody has their own interests or beliefs on this topic.

But not saying anything about the kind of advice promoted and the attitude inflicted, doesn't make much sense to me either; granted, had she been kinder, and had she not created such question around her own legitimacy, she might get less grief about that, but I still see them as worth questioning.

Nobody can make her do anything. Especially refrain from saying what she believes. People in the LC community can request she be accountable for demonstrating legitimacy, though, so I would at least agree that this is likely the only point that can be pressed upon her.

Other points seem like fair conversation 'about' her though.

[heather2578]

Originally Posted by vernswifevickie

You completely missed my point. The point is that if you are convinced that the plan is unsafe as you claim to be you should be upset that the plan is being offered ANYWHERE...not just on the kimkins site

I am! The more information coming out about 500 calories a day and milk of magnesia and all these pro-eating disorder things related to kimkins does make me upset it has it's own area on LCF. It's unhealthy and dangerous. It's scary to me that some of my friends could fall into the trap and develop an eating disorder or cause themselves medical harm. I hope anyone doing kimkins does their research. Please be careful! Don't go below 1200 calories a day, please don't use laxatives and please don't try to live on chicken and eggs until goal. I'm honestly concerned, not trying to pick a fight.

[RockyMtnAngelEyes]

Originally Posted by rightnow

I also don't see why it needs to be said yet again that the plan-on-paper -- at least, the high-cal (1000?) plan -- is not really in dispute; even those who don't agree with it, see that everybody has their own interests or beliefs on this topic.

My opinion is, yes it does have to be kept being said, because people keep saying we are putting 'her' plan down, when in fact, that's not the case...

Just like it being said that, because 1 person says they haven't seen something, some of us are taking things out of context, or it didn't really happen...

[Mia Tortilla]

WOW! I am just floored guys! I have been reading this thread for days, overcome by emotion, crying and feeling.... so many things.
I used to post here and at Kimkins under the name Mrs. Smith. I was part of the big uprising a year ago and a huge supporter of Heidi. I got myself good and banned form this site by my antics trying to "liberate the masses".
Boy, was I a fool. The thing that has had me in tears though, is that for the first time I realize I'm not alone in this.
I was very involved in Kimkins site when it opened. I knew the plan inside and out and passed out Heidi's advice like candy to any who asked. I even wrote an article for the newsletter. But as time passed, I knew something was getting way off track. At first I just thought it was my own inability to stick to plan. I would be so good for a couple of weeks and then I would start to binge. I'd clean my act up and get back on plan again. But the "plan behind the plan" kept getting more difficult to stick too and Heidi's advice kept me feeling like I was just too weak to be really serious about losing weight. I was told to take MOM daily. I was told that if I was really serious about getting the weight off I would drop my 51 calorie morning
cup of coffee, or keep drinking it and not lose the weight. 51 CALORIES!
Before I even knew what was happening I was in a full blown cycle of diet, binge, purge, take an epsom salt "toddy" as she called it, and repeat.
A few months ago I got a moment of clarity where I couldn't stand what I was doing anymore. I was crusing the Kimkins boards and for the first time saw just how bad things had gotten. People so obsessed with fasting and cutting every last calorie to the bone. And a whole section of people eating nothing but egg whites because they could get by on 200 calories a day. That's when I stepped back and told my husband I just couldn't believe what I was seeing and had accepted for so long.
Even after that time, I have gone through cycles for months of blaming myself for not being able to stick to the plan and get htis weight off... I mean if so many other's are able to do it, then it must just be my fault.
When I found this thread a few days ago, I was so angry with Heidi, so angry with myself, but more sad than anything that I've let a year of my life go to self hatred and abuse for what..... a charlatan and con artist who is taking advantage of sad, hopeless people looking for something to make there lives better, just like I was.
Ladies, Kiki and Amy especially... I wondered what happen to ya'll. I'm so thankful I found all of you. I want to start repairing the damage I have done to my body and my soul and this looks like a great place to start. Bless all of you who have had the courage to share your pain and life with the rest of us. It has made me open my heart to my own pain and realize I have to find a solution that is real and lifelong! And I'll start by using my own name for the first time EVER online.

Bless you all,
Tonya

[ItsTheWooo]

Originally Posted by cleochatra

People who are anorexic or have an ED think it can work for everyone. They're haughty about it. Basically, you can have someone with an ED who has made low-carb a way for others to experience ED less painfully.

That's the scary bit.

It used to be that anorexia meant maybe eating a lollipop or a couple of macaroni noodles, which just caused greater hunger and more frustration with food. Now we have someone who's like, "Oh yeah. You can stop eating. You don't even notice after a couple of weeks." And because of protein inhibiting hunger to some extent, people are like, "WOW! This not eating is really easy!"

So, it's a good plan (Atkins) abused. It's going to hurt Atkineers, low-carbers and 'the cause' for healthful eating vis a vis a low-carb plan.

Therein lies my frustration with the whole thing.

Hey, I just wanted to clarify a misconception: it is not significantly easier to starve if eating no carb, vs eating high carb. When calories are severe starvation level like this, it really doesn't matter much - fat metabolism is going to be predominant in both scenarios.

In other words, only eating a lollypop and a couple of noodles is going to induce strong ketosis too. THey will be SNATTing it up in no time.

One thing that's not being said, and which I know from personal experience...eating disorders are painful and private. The danger in kimkins is not that it makes it easy to starve (it doesn't... eating a piece of bread per day is going to SNATT you, as well as eating a chicken breast, because the body will be forced to make up all the energy difference by ripping through body fat once the sugar stores dwindle, same as in kimkins;
the only difference is the chicken breast is marginally healthier because protein malnutrition is a huge cause of anorexia complications).

The danger in kimkins, is that it *reinforces* the abnormal physiology from starvation for those who are ED prone (ocd, black & white thinking, apathy and indifference to pain) with a heaping dose of psychology.
Not only are depressed, miserable, out of control ED prone (or afflicted) women starving themselves... but htere is kimmer, with pompoms in hand shouting "KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK, YOU ARE CHANGING YOUR LIFE WITH SNATT AND YOUR 500 CAL DIETS".

Now, back to what I was saying before (how EDs are painful and private). What reall makes anorexia nervosa anorexia nervosa is the psychology part: the part, inside, that because of real messed up brain & body physiology (from stress and starvation)... really and truly believes life or death, worth or worthlessness, hinges on being thin and thinner.
Speaking from personal experience... there is this irrational, intangible, and all pervasive feeling, it is something like guilt and emptiness, and you just feel *mad* from it, that no matter what you are not doing enough, and all you want to do, is to just be thin and thinner.

It totally stops being about looks, or being attractive thin. You don't care if people tell you you look sick. You take it as a complement, deep down (it means you are thin). You sorta like the side effects , because they *all remind you you're thin and getting thinner*.

And you care about these things, see, because of that HORRIBLE FEELING that is always in your mind.


Kimmer can't alone give people "the feeling". I think you have to really have had some problems before hand to get it, some kind of stress, or rejection, or loss... or maybe just a rare genetic quirk in some people.

Either way, the point is, if the ground is fertile, kimmer is there nourishing those seeds, you know? She is helping people hone their "inner anorexic voice", just like the one that must torture her. That's the danger. SHe is encouraging people to associate fat with every problem, and starvation with the solution to every problem. I fully believe her forum, and her advice, reflects her inner world... and wow, is it sad.

An eating disorder becomes an eating disorder only when that feeling , much like a cancer, stops coming from kimmer (or anyone else in your life that may have made you miserable, weight related or not, society, magazines, beauty)... and it starts coming from within. It consumes you inside out. And, the behaviors are just symptoms, of something much worse inside your head.
Anorexics, really don't believe they look better. They don't want to be beautiful or "perfect weight", most of them... know that they look terrible, but they don't care. It's private. It's theirs. It's everything.
==========================

Basically I just want to say, we are overgeneralizing what is and is not eating disordered, and we are kinda missing the point as to why kimkins is so dangerous.

A lot of people go on crash diets for awhile. Also, it is *very* common for women to feel not good enough for weight, to go to extreme measures to be thin, etc. It only becomes an eating disorder when that... feeling, that horrible feeling... you can't make it stop. And, the feeling, is detatched from reality (there is no weight problem, or, weight has an unrealistic and *extreme* overwhelming obsession that is completely disproportionate to reality).
Being underweight and not eating enough and constantly restricting or starving or purging, it's all just a symptom of the feeling (and the feeling, itself, is from psychology and physiology). That's the disease.

Where kimmer comes into this, is helping people get to that point. Desperate people who are already kinda blaming problems on their weight... here's kimmer teaching them how to make those connections and to reinforce/worsen any predispositions...