Why the fascination with Kimmer?

[HevinMonkey]

Originally Posted by espresso cup

Some people here have mentioned the diet leads to anorexia--I just don't see it. Maybe I'm too lost in the forest here, but I had a weight problem before Kimkins. I once weighed 260 at 5'2''! I've lost weight many times, doing many different things and none led to permanent weight loss. I am back at 130 now and I feel fat. Even though I wear size 4, I feel fat. I am not normal, and it will take a long time to find normalcy with my weight. Kimkins didn't do this to me--at least she gave me a fighting chance to find it--the same as Atkins did.
Espresso, first of all congratulations on meeting your weight loss goals! Great Job! I am one who has brought alot of the ED element to this thread and I want to clarify that I am not saying it leads to anorexia. I did some (maybe too much for my own good) research yesterday by reading thru some of the pro-ana posting sites and I was shocked to find the similarites in the advice "over there" on how to successfully conduct a full blown eating disorder, and the personal advice given over here on how to successfully do Kimkins. Five minutes into this research I was sick to my stomach and my heart actually hurt for the people that are affected by this. Something has happened in me and I can't identify it - part repulsion/part fascination - I don't know what it is, but its scary for me to be honest. THAT is why I started posting about the potential for an ED in relation to this diet. I am in no way bashing the "official" diet as posted on this board, nor what she is selling on her site (especially, because much like its fearless leader, I have never seen those diets either). What I am concerned about is the "diet behind the diet" if you will. The diet that is beyond obsessive and relies on potentially dangerous methods to obtain an end that may very well not be worth it. There is such a thin line for those involved in weight loss and I think we come closer to crossing that line mentally/emotionally/physically than we sometimes know. I feel the Kimkins diet, if done with the tweaking and modifications she herself recommends/suggests/force feeds, is like a magnet to that line. For people who have struggled with an ED or for those that recognize the potential within themselves I do feel that this diet is like offering a drink to an alcholic. And again, please know that I am talking about the "modifications" that were drummed into everyone's heads as "Fact" - not the official diet itself.

So many people harp on the MOM thing--as if it's a conspiracy over there to get people to take it. I believe Stillman does recommend it, doesn't he? I promise you all that while I read about it quite a bit there, Kimmer/Heidi didn't recommend it to me either in private pms or in her Ask Kimmer forum.

[color="magenta"]Actually, I just want to make sure you know that really the only harping that was done on Milk of Magnesia, as well as Epsom Salts, was done by Kimmer herself, on "her" thread - and from what I could see it was usually unsolicited, often in response to someone being disappointed that they did not lose more overnight. - "Might you need a dash of Milk of Magnesia?" The SAME mentality is going on over with the pro-anas and mias - doing salt water fasts, taking laxatives daily, weighing every single piece of food that goes in their mouth then obsessively planning to rid their bodies of the evil food they consumed thru the use of laxatives. This is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! And encouraging clearly unhealthy behaviour like this could absolutely be disatrous to someone who is already predisposed to going down that slippery slope (as Lala once put it).COLOR]

Please know this is NOT an attack on you, or your opinions. I am truly truly happy for your success - you clearly handled it well and did things reasonably - perhaps you were spared the ED mentatlity in the advice you were given - but Espresso...so many people don't know how to distinguish that fine line or learn to distinguish it at great cost to them and were NOT spared the ED mentality advice. That is what scares and concerns so many of us, and some of us () on a really personal level as that line becomes blurred right before our very eyes, even in the face of reason. That is why I am trying to consume myself with knowledge right now - because even if Kimmer is silenced and never gives advice like that again, even if every unhealthy and dangerous piece of advice she ever gave were removed, there are STILL people that will perpetuate this woe, and the only thing we have as a defense to the oh so seductive lure of quick weight loss (which will surely make all our dreams come true and make us perfect) is knowledge. Thank you for your time! And again...nothing personal okay?

[LaurieRobo]

Originally Posted by RockyMtnAngelEyes

Laurie... I know how hard that was hard to share...

Thanks to both you and LALA - it was hard - but it wasn't just me that got to that point. I see someone there daily with binge issues (before and now more) and I saw someone that posts here get a little crazy talk about how she was eating...

I'm emailing with someone from that site - taken it from PM's to email (LOL) and being a support. I leveled with her today - and made her promise to EAT - and not get the to that ULTRA low calorie number - cause I just don't believe you have to starve to lose.

[LaurieRobo]

Please know this is NOT an attack on you, or your opinions. I am truly truly happy for your success - you clearly handled it well and did things reasonably - perhaps you were spared the ED mentatlity in the advice you were given - but Espresso...so many people don't know how to distinguish that fine line or learn to distinguish it at great cost to them and were NOT spared the ED mentality advice. That is what scares and concerns so many of us, and some of us () on a really personal level as that line becomes blurred right before our very eyes, even in the face of reason. That is why I am trying to consume myself with knowledge right now - because even if Kimmer is silenced and never gives advice like that again, even if every unhealthy and dangerous piece of advice she ever gave were removed, there are STILL people that will perpetuate this woe, and the only thing we have as a defense to the oh so seductive lure of quick weight loss (which will surely make all our dreams come true and make us perfect) is knowledge. Thank you for your time! And again...nothing personal okay?[/quote]

Kimber very well said! I am a sane person and I was getting sucked into that not thin enought mentality - so easy to become an ED.

[ItsTheWooo]

Originally Posted by AllieCat0817

Thanks. None of us is perfect so while I sit here and get mad at Kimmer for telling KiKi 'go ahead and stress eat' (I mean i was PIZZED!).... yet I have had my own warped mental stuff too. I can say that losing a ton of weight with relative ease as I did on Atkins, it is EASY to get on the high horse, think you are the bomb, especially when folk DO PM you and basically 'worship' your success. I have had it, I have had people tell me I need to write a book, go on Oprah. uh NO. Losing weight is good yeah, but it is SO not the end all be all. I will try to help folk who ask, but actually being a 'diet coach' is way too big a responsibility. Look at all the emotional/mental stuff we have attached to our weight.

I have had the same 'ooh Allie tell me how you did it, I wanna be just like you' and it DOES go to your head- easy. And it easily makes you just get TICKED at the people that are 'just too weak to stick with it'. I still have my days where I just get MAD when people go back and forth and don't just do it.

At the same time, I struggle my daggone self as I post in my journal. Maintenance is freakin HARD. The hardest part of all!

I don't want to sit here and dog Kimmer out without admitting that I have issues too!

Thank you Allie, this, too, is my experience as being one of the people who loses lots of weight. It's really easy to lose perspective... and those days where I used to crave rice and worry about cheating are soooo long ago that it's easy to take for granted. It's hard sometimes to empathize with the newbies who are struggling to learn what is and isn't low carb friendly, and what is and is not a good choice etc.
And, I'm fortunate not to have the experience of yo-yo dieting... so it is really, really hard for me to understand the psychological issues of yo-yo dieters. Much of their struggle is directly *because* of psych issues about having done so many incorrect diets before. Therefore, they feel destined to fail, or feeling almost afraid to become thin. When I read their posts, for the life of me, I really can't *understand* why they have the difficulties they do consistently making LC choices.

Also, it's true that after losing a lot of weight, it's really easy to get addicted to that feeling of "fixing" things . If you felt so fat, and so weak, and so worthless for so long... then you one day discover "you know, I can lose weight..." it's almost as if the universe unfolds for you. Whatever other problems you may have been going through, were so long blamed on being fat (at least for me), that you really and truly feel that thin is life or death. I can't even describe how important weight used to be, it was totally crazy. And I was never diagnosed with an ED but I'm pretty sure I had one. I am a *totally* different person than I used to be.

[Cutie]

Originally Posted by happy cricket

You're an open and honest person, Allie. I really appreciate that about you.

i appreciate that as well...thanks for that transparency...you often post things other people are thinking/feeling but don't have the confidence to say themselves.

[Violet Skye]

((((Carole)))) I'm not going to quote your post again because I am guessing that everyone has already read it and considered the thoughts you so generously and openly put forth. You are truly an inspiration on these boards, and when I see one of your posts, my eyes go to it pronto. I am sure I am not the only one!

I have lost (and regained) weight by participating in a well-known commercial program that has scientific backup, accountability, and so on. When the weight crept back on, I tried real hard to climb back on the wagon that had worked so well for me before, but my head wouldn't let me, because I was developing traits that weirded me out (obsessional counting, fear of certain foods which led to - you guessed it! - binges on those very same foods, being a PITA and a pwincess when ordering in a restaurant, and other crazy-making behaviours).

Like you, I have decided that I need something that is easy, doesn't set up barriers to living in the Real World, and will make me a stronger person instead of a frail, wasted shell. My mother is 75 but has the body of an 85-year-old according to her doc, and I don't want to repeat this for myself.

I've also decided that I'm not giving my power away to food, whether it's through self-flagellation by blaming them for ruining the "perfection" of my eating plan by - gasp - eating a cookie, or by making them seductive or comforting or antidepressive instead of *tasty*. I found through trial and error that certain foods make me nutso, and I stay away from them, but other than that, it's all good.

At this point, this thread isn't about the plan, and it may not really be so much about Kimmer any more, at least for me. What we're doing, which is amazing, is going deep, opening up and dealing with the issues we'd generally self-medicate with food. Now, that's a weight loss plan worth publishing!

[Cutie]

Originally Posted by heather2578

I'm so appalled by Kimmer's repeated advice (from the copy & pasted posts) to use Milk of Magnesia (hello a laxative!!!). That's another form of bulimia!!!


The constant, frequent use of laxatives as a form of weight control actually cause serious health problems including, but not limited to:
severe dehydration
nervousness
restlessness
insomnia
high blood pressure
severe headaches
fatigue
hyperactivity
heart palpitations
irregular heart beats
congestive heart failure
heart attack
stroke
vomiting
diarrhea
constipation
excessive perspiration
blurred vision
high fevers
urinary tract infections
tremors
confusion
hallucinations
renal failure
convulsions
death

well, clearly you haven't heard what we all were told over there...that the latest research shows that laxatives are not addictive any longer & we shouldn't be concerned at all to use them...they're totally safe to use daily...

(for real, that's been "coached" repeatedly )

[SMP]

As several other posters have pointed out, this entire thread has been a voyage of discovery. We started with Kimmer, but ended up revealing our own attitudes towards her, other fatties, our own bodies, personal accountability, obsessions and many more. It has been very revealing. Thank you all.

[Carolina Rose]

Originally Posted by cleochatra

Most traffic by far on any site is by google or MSN or other bots which crawl the net and take information back to their hosts. I've been a moderator and administrator at other boards, and if you saw 900 guests online, usually 700-850 of them at any given time were bots, leaving unique users in the vast minority).

A single bot can also be dozens of guests depending on how many actions it takes while at the site. A guest is usually something that has been active in nthe last five minutes, so even one lurking member can count as several guests if skimming threads quickly.

Bots and software implementation can make a place look vastly more busy than it really is.

cleochatra ~ thank you SO MUCH for this information! As I have said many times (in this thread alone), I have NEVER believed any of the numbers posted there at face value.

In fact, I just came from that site, and if you look at each of the 18 forums individually, you can see the number of people viewing that forum (just as we can here at LCF). Even though the "numbers" said there were 1765 guests and 706 members online, *only* 24 of those people were actually viewing any of the 18 forums. And only 11 were in chat.

Granted, the 1765 guests can't see the forums or chat room anyway, but of those 706 members, only 35?. And, frankly, if you're not viewing/posting in the forums or chat over there, there ain't a heck of a lot TO DO. Once you've seen the diet info and stuff like that, all that's left are the forums and chat.

IMO, that whole "bot" thing presents false advertising for those that don't know better. I've always wondered with so many "hundreds" online (no matter the time of day, weekend, holiday, etc), why the forums have relatively so few new posts. Now I know why! Thanks again!

[Cutie]

Originally Posted by Deb294evr

She answers daily since I've been a member

just curious, how long have you been a member?

i can remember stretches of 2-3 days at a time with no posts/answers to questions.

[rightnow]

Espresso Cup and EV294, thanks for posting your positive experiences with Kim and Kimkins on this thread. I think it's important that all perspectives be a welcome part of it.

As a small note, one thing that makes this subject confusing for new people and difficult to discuss with clarity, is that there isn't really any black and white about it. Kim has been kind to some people and unkind to others. She has sometimes recommended more vegetables or protein and sometimes recommended starvation-level calories, living on diet coke and regular MOM purging. (Alas, more of the latter than former it appears.) Her 'official' plans, the higher-cal ones anyway, are not offensive. It is some of the more extreme plans, and much of her advice, that people argue. And they really only argue it, because the combination of anomalies in dates, communications, and photos, makes her overall package of herself-as-demo-worth-$ questionable. She could have cleared it up super easily, on any day for the last many years, and hasn't. That is so weird that it just makes lots of people stop and go, "Hmmmn."

I believe many people have used Kimkins plans and had good experiences. Those count just as much. I'm glad you had the courage to post here.

[HevinMonkey]

Originally Posted by Violet Skye

At this point, this thread isn't about the plan, and it may not really be so much about Kimmer any more, at least for me. What we're doing, which is amazing, is going deep, opening up and dealing with the issues we'd generally self-medicate with food. Now, that's a weight loss plan worth publishing!

So perfectly said. I agree a hundred times over and am so thankful this thread is being allowed to continue.

[stews]

I also want to clarify what I think about it leading to anorexia or other ED's.


I believe it is a risk for doing that. I certainly don't think everyone that does kimkins will have an ED, but I do believe there are a lot that will (or allready do when they start it). again, NOT all.

[RockyMtnAngelEyes]

Originally Posted by Cutie

well, clearly you haven't heard what we all were told over there...that the latest research shows that laxatives are not addictive any longer & we shouldn't be concerned at all to use them...they're totally safe to use daily...

(for real, that's been "coached" repeatedly )

And I'm here to back up what Amy said.. I saw it as well..

That 'advise' caused a lot of memories to come flooding back to me..

[Jake]

Originally Posted by stews

I also want to clarify what I think about it leading to anorexia or other ED's.


I believe it is a risk for doing that. I certainly don't think everyone that does kimkins will have an ED, but I do believe there are a lot that will (or allready do when they start it). again, NOT all.

It probably depends on the personality of the person doing it. I will admit that after 8 days on Kimkins, I felt guilty yesterday when I added lettuce to my ground turkey . Fortunately, I'm a pretty objective person, and I know that's a mentality born out cutting out SO much in my diet - in other words, no lasting damage for me, but I can see how some people might really own that guilt and hold onto it.

[Violet Skye]

I also want to clarify what I think about it leading to anorexia or other ED's.


I believe it is a risk for doing that. I certainly don't think everyone that does kimkins will have an ED, but I do believe there are a lot that will (or allready do when they start it). again, NOT all.

Yup, for those who have the predisposition/attraction. Those who do not have this tendency will be as unaffected by it as I am by potential triggers for prostate enlargement.

Now, GROUP HUG TIME!!! 'Cause we rock as hard as Live Aid, Live 8, Live Earth & Woodstock, all put together.

[HevinMonkey]

Originally Posted by Violet Skye

Now, GROUP HUG TIME!!! 'Cause we rock as hard as Live Aid, Live 8, Live Earth & Woodstock, all put together.

- to all!

[CarolynF]

I've watched Intervention when an ED person was on there..My goodness, it's not about lusting after a few cookies. This is a VERY serious disease and mindboggling to watch these gals eat and eat, throw up only to be able to eat again. I guess it's all about control..in the most horrible damaging form. I may not be able to control my outside world, but I CAN control what goes in and out of my mouth and body..whether it's $400 worth of junk food or eating so little.

So, to set people up to possibly develop an ED is very irresponsible, in my opinion...

[rightnow]

Originally Posted by RockyMtnAngelEyes

And I'm here to back up what Amy said.. I saw it as well..

I always wondered about laxatives. The only thing you can flush is the food going through your system, right? And it goes through your system because nutrients absorb through the intestinal walls, right? So isn't flushing your digestive system the same end-result as not eating the nutrients in the first place? If you're eating 3-500 calories and then flushing, doesn't that nearly equate to fasting, in a way? I used to do week long fasts regularly when I was young (~18) just for fun (seriously, interesting mental-spiritual side effects). But for weight loss, "starving" doesn't seem to equate to "eating plan" to me. (I am still cracking up over that earlier ad-spoof quip someone made: "Celery stalk. It's what's for dinner.")

But I thought nutrient deficiency led to unavoidable binging as a basic biological survival response. And I thought over-reduced calories led to metabolic slowdown (adaptation) (starvation response). And I thought over-reduced calories led to depletion of everything from bone to muscle to brain to organs, not just fat. If any of these are true (let alone all of them), what imaginable good could purging with laxatives be? I don't just mean what good to health, obviously it's no good for health. I mean what good to weight loss? Anything that reduces LBM slows down metabolism, reduces the amount of calories one 'needs' (hence one'd have to keep reducing intake to compensate), and binging is a major problem. I understand everybody has their own weight loss strategy. What I don't understand is why this is seen as aiding in losing fat. I would think it would be as harmful to losing fat as it is to health.

It seems to me these kinds of recommendations are dangerous, and that making them while having no medical or nutritional qualification is one of the arguments coming up on the thread now and then. But tell me, IS there ANY research from any medical or science base that suggests fat cells empty themselves more quickly if you use purging products?

[Violet Skye]

Carolyn, my grandmother died of anorexia nervosa when she was 36 (my mom was 12 at the time), and the aftereffects have rippled down through the generations - my niece, who's 12 and who lost 15 pounds earlier this year, recites calorie counts like my brother used to do with baseball stats. To put it mildly, I'm scared, and as distracting as the subject of a potential Internet scam might have been while the family was in the ICU waiting room during my mom's surgery this past weekend, I have avoided discussing this around my brother's family for fear of triggering something. The Beanie-baby-cuteness of the name "Kimkins" would be enough to pique her curiosity.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by rightnow

What I don't understand is why this is seen as aiding in losing fat. I would think it would be as harmful to losing fat as it is to health.

It seems to me these kinds of recommendations are dangerous, and that making them while having no medical or nutritional qualification is one of the arguments coming up on the thread now and then. But tell me, IS there ANY research from any medical or science base that suggests fat cells empty themselves more quickly if you use purging products?

I don't think the focus is on fat so much as ounces. It's like the "weigh yourself naked and go pee first" mentality, so to speak.

[HevinMonkey]

Originally Posted by rightnow

It seems to me these kinds of recommendations are dangerous, and that making them while having no medical or nutritional qualification is one of the arguments coming up on the thread now and then. But tell me, IS there ANY research from any medical or science base that suggests fat cells empty themselves more quickly if you use purging products?

As usual, you make excellent points and so much sense. You are a seriously informative, intelligent person. From some of what I was looking into yesterday, it seems that not only are you right, but the people