K/E and Kimkins Quick Reference Info

[Tashi]

Rules for Kimkins and K/E

Here's the guidelines for Kimkins:

*Up to 20 total carbs (not 'net')
*Up to 3 cups salad type veggies or
*Up to 2 cups salad veggies + .5 cup 'cooked'
*70-90 lean protein grams
*No LC products, treats, junk or alcohol
*Just enough fat to make your menu work (don't overdo)


Here's the guidelines for the Kimmer Experiment (not M/E):

*As much lean protein as you desire
*Length of time is 3-5 days depending on how 'carbed up' you are
*Purpose is to experience 'real' ketosis (weight loss, no appetite)
*Useful as a springboard for other LC programs
*No alcohol, no cheese
*Basic condiments and spices OK (watch catsup & A1 sauce)


Above taken from page 1 of "Ask Kimmer"

Tashi

[Tashi]

Originally Posted by Kimmer

"When carbs are very, very low (20 or less total) and you enter what I term 'real' ketosis, the weight loss is phenomenal ... way, way faster than the 3500 calories = 1 lb rule.

Dr. Atkins called it a "metabolic advantage", but his office only figure the advantage at 300 calories per day. That's not the number we're talking about, so I don't use Dr. Atkin's term.

Think of a set of dominos standing up straight and placed an inch away from each other. At the beginning of Kimkins or Kimmer Experiment, the dominoes begin falling. One, then two and three ... then look out! They start falling at blazing speed, building on the momentum already started.

Maybe a tsunami would be a better analogy? Think of the power of thousands of miles of water, moving with such force that the ocean appears to have risen 50 feet!

Once the dominos have been stopped (cheat), it comes to a grinding halt and the momentum is dissolved. Sigh, start all over and it will be another week of so-so loss until the dominos are set up again.

It is not the same as the measured 1-2-3 lbs a week lost on traditional plans. A "cheat" on those plans can be recaptured much more quickly ... if you're interested in only lose 1 lb a week.


People who commit to very low carb/low cal (and many of us are almost beyond morbidly obese) are those who show the miraculous weight losses you see.

"Unbelievable" might be the opinion of some. "Grateful" is the opinion of those who did and accomplished."

[Tashi]

LeanMeats

Beef

Round
Look for the word "Round" on the label.
Choose any trimmed round cuts.
Trim all fat before cooking.

For example, choose:
Round Steak
Round Rump Roast
Round Tip Roast
Eye of Round Roast
Eye of Round Steak

Loin
Look for the word "Loin" on the label.
Choose any trimmed loin cuts.
Trim all fat before cooking.
For example, choose:
Tenderloin Steak
Tenderloin Roast
Sirloin Steak
Sirloin Tip Roast

Chuck
Choose from the trimmed chuck cuts listed below.
Trim all fat before cooking.
Chuck Arm Roast
Chuck Arm Steak
Chuck Mock Tender Roast
Chuck Mock Tender Steak

Ground Beef
Look for "85% Extra Lean" on the label.

Pork
Choose from the trimmed pork cuts listed below.
Trim all fat before cooking.

Canadian Bacon
Center Loin Chop
Ham, Cured
Leg Steak
Tenderloin Roast
Tenderloin Strips

Turkey
Choose any fresh or frozen turkey that is not breaded.
Remove the skin before cooking.

Chicken
Choose any fresh or frozen chicken that is not breaded.
Remove the skin before cooking.
White meat is lower in fat


Fish and Seafood
Choose any fresh or frozen fish and seafood that is not breaded.
Choose water-packed canned fish

[Tashi]

Fibrous Veggies

Originally Posted by Kimmer

"Speaking of fiber, let's look at veggies. Rather than fiber supplements that are powdery, gloppy and/or expensive, we can choose a variety of veggies.

What about my low calorie example above? OK, let's look:

Mixed salad greens, 6 cups chopped, 7 gm fiber (8 capsules!)
Broccoli, cooked, 1 cup, 5 gm fiber (6 capsules!)

I changed the broccoli to 1 cup from .5 for the fiber example, but that still only adds 20 extra calories.

Let's add a few more veggie favorites of mine with their fiber counts:

Mushroom, raw, 1 cup - 1
Bell peppers, raw, .5 large - 1
Italian tomato, raw - 1
Cauliflower, cooked, 1 cup - 3
Cucumber, raw 1 large - 2
Zucchini, 1 large - 4
Bean sprouts, 1 cup stir fried - 2
Spinach, 1 cup cooked - 4
Artichoke, 1 medium - 6

If were to add up the calories for this bounty of veggies, we'd come in at only 432 with 36 gm fiber! Nutritionists recommend 30 gm of fiber daily for healthy bowel function.

At maintenance, just 1 cup of cooked pinto beans is 15 gm of fiber (half!) which can be absolutely delicious made in a low calorie way with Mexican spices to make "chili". It's also 25% of your RDA for protein (incomplete but other protein choices will add the necessary aminos, or add chicken)."

[umayya]

I hope you dont mind if I add this Tashi. These are common questions that people asked so I copied and pasted Kimmers Words!


I thought M/E wasthe 3 day experiment? Are these two different things? BTW, I know the 3 day experiment is lean meats and eggs. So M/E is something different?
No, M/E was already here 7 years ago. It seems to pretty much be any animal product, usually high calorie (ham, sausage, cheeseburgers, pork rinds). And, naturally, high calorie cheese and the desserts made from them. Some people actually gain weight! The Kimmer Experiment is Stillman's although it gets a better reception.

M/E = Any kind of beef & fat, poultry w/ skin, ribs w/ fat, sausage, ham, bacon, chicken wings, pork rinds, all cheese, oil, butter.

Kimmer 3 Day Experiment = Lean chicken, fish, pork loin, beef (watch type), eggs. No fat, no cheese

What is the fastest way to lose weight?
The fastest weight loss will be at the lowest calories and lowest carbs so:
FASTEST: Water fasting
FASTER: Kimmer's 3 Day Experiment (long term) or
Stillman's (original, not BB version w/ desserts)
FAST: Kimkins or 1972/1992 Atkins
OK, NOT GREAT: Atkins 1996-2005

I think transitioning to "old" Atkins or Kimkins after a few days of "protein only" probably makes people feel better since they're adding a dab of veggies, but there's no nutritional reason for it.

How much weight could I lose in 8 weeks if I'm strict?
Figure you're going to lose 5 lbs of water weight and the balance would come off at a minimum around 3-4 lbs a week.

How long will it take to get into Ketosis?
It can take 3-5 days to get rid of the carbs you had in your system before.

How long does it take to recover from a cheat?
However, as Dr. Atkins wrote, "cheating is the kiss of death on this diet", even a small amount of high carb food can bring ketosis to a screeching halt and takes 4-7 days to recover.

What is "SNATT"?
SNATT stands for Semi Nauseous All The Time which is the feeling many have in what I term 'real' ketosis. You feel icky! Welcome to Induction Flu! The "ickies" last a couple of days (headache, tired) and then you're better ... but not real anxious to eat, LOL!

Can I have eggs on the Kimmer Experiment?
I consider them an almost perfect food (if they can get some spinach in there, it would be perfect, LOL). Eggs have a wide variety of nutrients (especially the yolk), including lecithin. Who knew? If you can afford them, Eggland's Best manages to get Omega-3 inside their eggs! I think they're also free range hens, but not positive.

Can you have added fat on the kimmer experiment?
No. It's only 3 days.

Can I use splenda?
Artificial Sweeteners - Use them. Tea is a wonderful drink and very, very good for you. Brew it up, use your sweetener, enjoy!
If your overall calories are low, the carbs in "0" calorie items (which aren't 0 calorie) won't matter.
Coffee black is fine. Even a couple 4 calorie sweetener packets is fine. It's the 200-300 calories in the cream that does the damage. Your body uses carbs before anything else (except alcohol), so technically the 1 carb in each sweetener packet (or gum) counts because your body will use it first ... but if your calories are low enough through appetite suppression, it won't matter.

I read somewhere that diet sodas stall people? Should I avoid them?
I disagree. People who are close to their calorie limits might blame diet soda for a 'stall', but it's more like cheese desserts, chicken wings w/ bleu cheese dressing or cheeseburgers. If you 'stall', it's not the soda. Make a variety of 0 carb 0 cal beverages.

What should be my daily calorie intake?
Don't worry about calories. Eat what you need to not feel hungry. After the Kimmer Experiment you'll lose your appetite. Focus on healthy "snacks" like lean protein, Jello cup serving of veggies (.5 cup is a serving according to nutritionists!). If you try for some bizarre basal minimum calorie theory, you're going to be miserable. If you feel that you "should" eat, eat snacks as above or read the links on the water fasting thread "Make It Fast" and learn why our bodies do perfectly fine without food of any kind ... providing we have excess body fat.

How come you can only have .5 of cooked veggies instead of all 3 cups of cooked veggies ?
Carb count. Dr. Atkins never allowed 3 cups of cooked veggies because broccoli, cooked spinach, cauliflower, asparagus, etc. all contain more carbs than salad type veggies like lettuce, raw spinach, etc.
The intent of Dr. Atkins original book (or Dr. Stillman's) was to lose body fat very quickly via very, very low carbs ... then, start adding foods back once you've done your bod a favor by dumping the fat.

Dr. Atkins even went to far as to say "loosely" measure lettuce, as if firmly packed lettuce would have had huge carbs. His point was low, low, low carb.

What is better Kimmers experiment followed with Kimkins??? I just cant see how 1cup of low carb veggies or 2cups lettuce could "slow" down your results.
I think Kimkins is better, but it's a personal interpretation as to "use only enough fat to make your menu work".
Some people may "need" 4 tablespoons of salad dressing on 3 salads ... whoa Nelly that's a lot of calories! I strongly recommend low cal dressing, there's a wide variety ... some so low they're almost free!
The Kimkins veggie "allotment" is directly from Dr. Atkin's 1992 book. We need to keep in mind that .5 cup is only a tiny Jello cup.


How long can we stay on Kimmers/Kimkins?
KE is Stillman's and Dr. Stillman said it was safe until you're close to goal. We should pay heed to KajunDC's post about whole food vitamins because we do want to supplement for the vitamins & minerals we're missing w/o veggies. Kimkins is KE plus up to 3 cups of salad veggies a day and if you pick low cal salad dressing or light margarine (no trans fats!), you can stay as long as you care to.

[Tashi]

Thank you Denise!!!

[umayya]

During the Kimmer experiment, is fried foods ok cooked in olive oil?
What are you frying? I think a small amount of olive oil to saute is fine, but "fried chicken" quantity oil isn't. We're talking 100 calories for each tiny tablespoon. If you don't want your food to stick, you can try what I do which is pour 1 measured teaspoon of olive on the meat/chicken and rub it around. All the food is covered and no sticking!

Can my calories be too low? Will I go into Starvation Mode?
If you check my Fitday, my calories were very low and I lost 160 pounds in 7 months. Look at how fast Star Jones, Carnie Wilson and Al Roker lost 100+pounds?

Anyone with excess body fat is carrying their food with them.

Figure 50 lbs of excess body fat x 3500 calories, that's 175,000 calories just waiting to be used! The very reason we have body fat is for our bodies to tap into when we don't have enough food ... although few of us have to actually hunt it down anymore.

Why am I still hungry?
If you're hungry, eat. How about a scrambled or hard boiled egg?
The appetite suppression comes from very, very low carbs. Even though veggies are excellent nutritionally, if we overeat them the carbs are too high and no appetite suppression (maybe no ketosis either). Still, we can lose that way, this is how Weight Watcher's works.
Per Dr. Atkins, "severely restrict" your carbs and appetite suppressing ketosis will kick in.

I don't have an appetite at all and feel like I'm making myself eat.
That is 'real' ketosis and this is why you're losing so quickly. You're losing way faster than the 3500 calories = 1 pound allows.

How long will a cheat set you back?
When we "severely restrict" carbs (per Dr. Atkins), we force our body to use other easy energy sources. The first is glycogen from our liver. That takes 2-3 days (which is also why we don't have the water-loss whoosh for 2-3 days). When the glycogen is gone ... and assuming daily calories aren't excessive ... the body taps its stored fat.

This is why a person who is eating "protein only" but consuming 2500-3500 calories doesn't lose, even though their carbs are very low. The body is getting its necessary calories from food ... body fat is still "safe".
When you consider it takes 2-3 days to deplete glycogen, 2-3 days to replenish glycogen and then 2-3 days to get rid of it again ... that's the 4-7 days to recover from a cheat.

What's your view on skipping breakfast?
If you're not hungry, don't eat.
Someone is skipping breakfast thinking that they're eating fewer calories, but are then starving at lunchtime ... clearly this isn't a good idea. But for those who honestly aren't hungry, which is rampant during 'real' ketosis, there's no reason to force yourself to eat.

Kimmer...what are the differences between atkins 72' and DANDR?
The difference between the original 1972 book and the first revision in 1992 is largely allowing more veggies on Induction, although 2 handfuls of salad and a jello cup of broccoli ain't all that much!

The 1996 onward DANDRs were edited by staff (check the Forward page) and revisions were to make the plan less controversial and compete with the main competition at the time, The Zone. Each revision adds more carbs without mentioning reducing fat (high cal high carb doesn't work), with the latest books allowing sugar alcohols, although Dr. Atkins clearly wrote earlier that -itol sweeteners were horrible and to be avoided. $$ talks.

EPSOM SALTS FOR regularity ? See post #228 on "Ask Kimmer thread"

What information do you have on Water Fasting?
Here's a link to the June thread. Nady starts a new one each month. The info is in Post #1:

Make it Fast Challenge Thread **Make It Fast** ~ June ~

Should I expect my weight to bounce up from adding good carbs (veggies, cheese)?
Your weight will only bounce up if you carbs are high. For example, adding 2 servings of cooked veggies and a small salad won't do anything. But adding the veggies plus 100-200 calories in cheese and/or salad dressing will slow things down.

What is the quickest way to lose weight?
This is what I would do:
1) The Kimmer Experiment for 5 full days.
2) Transition to Kimkins but really, really watch fat calories. Focus on a variety of very low carb veggies prepared in a low cal way.
3) You should have zilch appetite and weekend water fasts will do your body (and body fat) good. I start Friday afternoon until Sunday afternoon.

After water fasting, really focus on adding back nutrient dense veggies in small amounts. If you had just cleaned your bathtub, you wouldn't pour dirty water back in, right? Don't forget a Centrum.

I wouldn't start with a water fast, it's really brutal if you're inexperienced.

Does anyone know of a fiber pill i can take daily like a vitamin?
I like milk thistle, but it's not an actual laxative. Whichever you go with, check the ingredients. I think most are only 1 gram of fiber per pill.


Did you say that low cal mayo and ketchup is ok a couple times a week or should I stay away from it at all times? I love ranch dressing (I eat it with everything), should I stop eating it on my salads and meats altogether or just switch to low cal ranch?
Weight loss is a calorie game. Do you use measuring spoons?

Measure 1 flat tablespoon of Ranch dressing. See how tiny it is? How much do you think you're pouring on food? That will definitely hold you back. You're making a lot of changes and this could be the time to go cold turkey on Ranch?

If you're using a lot, even low calorie will add up. Try a sprinkle dressing like the low cal Italian types ... or, skip salads for a while and pick Jello cup portions of cooked veggies (broccoli, cauli, asparagus, onions, zucchini).

Ditto on catsup if you use a lot (my foster kids douse eggs!) That's a lot of sugar. Again, measure out a tablespoon and see what it looks like. If you absolutely need it on eggs, use a measured amount.

I really don't like veggies but I can force myself to eat broccoli, romaine lettuce, cucumber, and cauliflower. Which veggies are best?
All veggies are super stars! The good part is that you don't need to eat very much to reap tremendous (and I do mean tremendous) health benefits! Take a look around the produce department and pick anything you see. The more color a veggie has, the more "oomph" it has ... but then again onions, garlic and cauliflower are pale but antioxidant power houses!

Try fixing the veggies a different way? I chop cucumbers and add a splash of low calorie Zesty Italian dressing for a snack for my boys. They also love crudite plates. Romaine lettuce layered with a bit of tuna salad or salsa and a slice of lunch meat rolled up isn't too intimidating.

Remember, a veggie "serving" is only a tiny Jello cup size (.5 cup) and if you have even 2-3 a day, you're halfway to what the USDA recommends.


What are salad veggies?
Salad veggies to me are lettuces, cabbage, onions, cucumbers, tomatoes, celery, mushrooms, green onions, asparagus, garlic, radishes, green beans, peppers, etc.

Pretty much everything except winter squashes, sweet potatoes & yams, potatoes, corn or eggplant.

Zucchini, cauliflower, tomatoes, green beans, broccoli, turnips and round onions are a bit carby (remember .5 cup servings).
If you eat them with fat (butter or cheese) really watch quantities so you don't go over 20 total carbs.

[umayya]

How did you gain all your wisdom? Experience, research, trial and error?
How have I learned? Hmmm, experience, tears, research, screaming, trial & error, back to square one ... so, all of the above.

I think I pay more attention to low-carb and its intricacies than most other people (I guess other people have lives ). I've been fascinated ever since I did Stillman's at 16 and lost so much weight in 2 weeks I had to stop because my pants were falling down and I didn't have money to buy more (welfare mom).

On your fitday where it says that you ate things like mayo and horseradish...is that all you ate for that given day?
No, if there's a day with something odd like that, it was probably a day I used to figure something for somebody on this BB.

When I was entering stuff in my Fitday (including journal entries), I never had any intention of anyone else seeing it. When people starting asking for my "sample menu", I made the Fitday public ... and was very shocked that people were shocked at the calories.

I didn't count calories, only protein (making sure to have ENOUGH) and carbs. When you lose your appetite in 'real' ketosis, you're just not hungry.

Now that you have been at a good weight for quite some time...do you find it difficult to keep off even when sticking to low calorie healthy foods?
No, I find it very easy to keep my weight stable, but I think it's largely because I don't eat "white" ... sugar, pasta, bread, tortillas, rice. My meals tend to be lean protein, any veggie (tiny corn or potato on occasion), 2-3 fruits and a low cal yogurt. Why this works for me is because I don't like "thinking" which is why Atkins was perfect -- count to 20, got it.

Did I read right a few months ago that you lost all your weight without exercising?
Yes. I think exercise is good (so is water), but I don't do either.

Kimmer, I was wondering how many calories and carbs you eat now that you are at goal?
I rarely track my carbs/calories anymore, but when I check on Fitday I'm at 1200-1400 calories and 70-90 total carbs.

The usual formula for goal weight if you're sedentary (me) is 10-12X calories per body weight (118) which equals 1180-1410 so I'm right on target. I don't exercise.

Kimmer, how long did you fast during your journey? Also how did you come off the water fast? I have heard that protein is hard on the liver after fasting for a long time.
I imagine coming off to chicken broth or miso soup would be okay?

I fast one weekend a month and have since I was 24-25 years old. I start on Friday around 4 pm until Sunday around 4 pm. I do it for cleansing and detox, but more importantly it's a treat to myself. I relax, endulge in home spa treatments, catch up on reading or quiet projects or watch a favorite movie.

Protein shouldn't be any harder on kidneys or liver after a fast, assuming that the person had good function to begin with. Protein is more challenging for the filtering the kidneys do, but that's true no matter what. I think relatively few people actually do get blood work before beginning weight loss plans and wouldn't know if they are causing harm.

When I break my fasts, I usually start with a small raw veggie salad, later maybe veggie soup, and a small veggie platter for breakfast. Theoretically you're supposed to "break" half as long as you fasted, but I play it by ear.

Kimmer do you have any other pics posted anywhere?
No, I'm sorry. It took years before I even posted what's there. I don't have photos of myself at home, either, only my children. I do a lot of volunteer work and when there's publicity photos, I always manage to disappear ... shy?

[umayya]

Kimmer can I read your story?
Here's my "story" from another post:

I have low carbed off and on since I was 16. My first LC experience at 16 was with Stillman's. I lost weight so quickly, I had to stop because I was a teenage welfare mom and had no way to buy new clothes. I didn't have a scale to know how much I lost, but I was a size 14 and my pants were nearly falling off after 2 weeks.

Still, I was 5'6" and size 12/14 which is a very good size for me (big boned) and my weight stayed for about 3 years. When I was 165 lbs. I read a book "The Last Chance Diet" by Dr. Robert Linn which is liquid protein. I did that for about a week, but the liquid stuff is so horrible (Dr. Linn calls it "the most vile substance this side of Venus") that I began skipping the protein and just drinking diet soda & vitamins (I'm not a water drinker). I lost 67 pounds in 43 days and felt wonderful ... my first "euphoria" experience. I stopped when my fiance invited me to go camping with his family for the weekend. They were Hispanic and his mom was NOT going to understand fasting. (I was 19 then, now I wouldn't care, LOL!)

I gradually regain the weight because I was eating more carbs (not candy & chips, but potatoes, pastries, coffee w/ sugar & cream). A coworker was doing Weight Watchers and it looked fun (and organized!) so I tried it. The carbs were too high and I was only losing 1-2 pounds a week. Compared to how I lost previously on low/no carb, this was WAY too slow! I was also hungry constantly because of the high carbs. So, I changed the "exchanges" from bread and fruit to protein and began losing 5-6 pounds a week. I wasn't able to finish all the "exchanges" because of ketosis/loss of appetite. I lost 88 pounds and quit meetings because I felt like a hypocrite when the leader would ask me to share with the group how I lost so much each week.

I gradually regained the weight over 2 years after my little brother died in a horrible hospital accident. I didn't "pig out" but I wasn't careful about choices. My priority wasn't on weight loss. Incidentally, my little brother was Type 1 diabetic. He was 6'1" and 135 pounds, a virtual skeleton. He often refused to inject his insulin, ate like a horse, lost vast amounts of body fat. This is what absolutely convinced me of low carbing. In the absence of insulin (what we try to accomplish by restricting carbs), the body will not hold onto body fat.

During the next 10 years of my marriage I gained 110 pounds. Did my version of LC off and on, always losing 40-50 pounds, but not sticking with it ... especially during stressful times. I had a repeat C-section and suffered serious muscle/nerve damage, which left me unable to walk at one point. I still have residual difficulties, although I look and act normal to everyone (well, I don't know about 'normal', LOL), but I didn't exercise during my weight loss phase.

When I weighed 288 pounds I got worried. I wasn't eating large amounts, just the wrong things and my weight kept creeping up every month. If I didn't do something soon, I'd weigh 300. So I investigated weight loss surgery. I've posted on that several times so you can search if you want to read it. But, bottom line, I'm not a big eater and I wasn't sure the surgery would help me. You can only eat small amounts, but I was already eating small amounts. The idea of surgery doesn't bother me at all, but to know that it would be FINAL and maybe unsuccessful, deterred me from going through with it.

After my divorce (16 year marriage), I was nearing my 40th birthday. I figured I had to decide whether to finally lose and maintain the weight once and for all ... or just accept my size 26, 318 pound body and quit whining about it. Granted, going through a divorce and custody battle does wonders for motivation and loss of appetite, LOL!

My trouble was that I never saw myself as fat. I knew I was larger than I should be, but actually didn't recognize my jeans as being mine when I'd fold them. When the seatbelt in my husband's truck wouldn't fasten, I assumed the belt was faulty. When I couldn't tie my shoes (or bend to put them on), I chalked it up to joint stiffness (never mind that I didn't have arthritis). Even when I realized it was stomach turning on the stove burners when I'd reach to the cabinets above, I thought my kids were playing around with the burners.

I found this site, Dottie and Fitday. Decided to get serious or forget it -- I never looked back. I tracked my carbs and protein on Fitday, ignored fat and calories and lost rapidly. I'm in a different mindset now then when I was 20 something. Hopefully, the emotional turmoil is gone, also.

And that's it!!!

Here's my Fitday for 3-4 months during my weight loss phase. Remember that during what I term 'real' ketosis you don't have an appetite, so eating what I have listed was a struggle. I got very good at eating cold food (via picking at leftovers during the day).

http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJ...&Month=7&Day=7

During my weight loss phase I also water fasted (no water, but 0 cal beverages, homemade veggie broth and herbal tea) one weekend a month. I've done that for years and still do.

[umayya]

Here is another discription of the Domino effect, that I thought was really good. Thanks Dharma for posting it!

Domino Effect Posted by Dharma:Ketogenic is a term referring to a ketone based diet, hence the term "in ketosis." This is caused by the consumption of ultra low carbohydrates - under 100 grams per day for sure, but most often I think, under 30-40 grams - in order to force the body into ketosis. Ketosis is the point where there is not enough glucose to fuel the system, particularly the 100 grams or so it takes to fuel the brain, which forces the liver to produce ketones for fuel.

After a period of time, between 1-4 days normally, the brain adapts to using the ketones for fuel. After a longer period of time, between 2 and 4 weeks, the body begins to efficiently use bodyfat for fuel and decreases the use of ketones to fuel the muscles. (Bold mine.)

Critics of ketogenic diets always try to convince people that the weight loss is WATER loss. While there is some truth in this, it is misleading. Unlike most diets, there is usually a very dramatic weight loss during the first week on a ketogenic diet. And during the first week or two, this is primarily water loss. In a normally fed individual on a typical American diet, the muscles are "loaded" with glycogen which is the storage form of carbohydrates. About 400 grams can be stored in the muscles (1600 calories) and about 100 grams (400 calories) in the liver. (Inserted from another source.) For every gram of carbohydrate that is stored, the body stores approximately 2-3 grams of water. When you initially start the ketogenic diet, your body's preferred source of fuel is still glycogen, so before you begin to efficiently use ketones (or fat) as fuel, your body depletes your muscle's reserves of glycogen (and water).

The more muscle mass an individual has and accompanying glycogen, the greater the weight loss due to water loss. Of course, this is only part of the story. While the rapid weight loss may provide a strong psychological incentive and motivator to stay on the diet, it is not true fat loss. This is the critic's argument.
But the magic of the ketogenic diets occur with extended use where the body adapts to using fat as fuel and causes the body to lose bodyfat while helping to preserve muscle.

--From Dave Draper’s website/forum

[dusk]

You guys forgot the most important part! Kimmer's siggy: (at least I didn't see it while skimming)


The absolute rule is carbs are sugar. Good carbs or bad, they are all sugar. Your body will use the following in this exact order:

• alcohol, then
• carbs, then
• protein, then
• dietary fat, then finally
• stored body fat

This is physiology and cannot be disputed. If you overeat alcohol, carbs, protein and dietary fat, then you won't lose body fat ... why would you?

If someone increases carbs and compensates by lowering calories (fat) it will "work" ... just as increasing calories (fat) and lowering carbs will "work".

It depends on what you want, where you're at psychologically and what you're willing to do to get it.

Can you commit?