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Old 10-24-2014, 05:29 AM   #1
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Why do you think JUDDD isn't faster when it comes to weight loss?

Genuine question that has occurred to me.

Watching people's daily weigh-ins (I love that thread) and hearing again and again that JUDDD isn't a fast weight loss method from a variety of sources...it occurred to me that I'm really curious as to why that is? It would seem that hardly eating anything every other day (a significant number of days in a given month), combined with fasting "magic" would allow for a more rapid weight loss. When you average out the up day and down day calories then a significant deficit is in place. Now, I'm not saying that it's not healthier to lose at a slower pace, but I think I'm just not understanding what might be happening in situations where someone maybe only loses 2 pounds in a month. Or the people who lose a lot at first and then just stop losing. I don't get it.

So my theories on this are:
1. A lot of people doing JUDDD have other hormone or thyroid issues happening that make weight loss difficult anyway, no matter what the method.
2. Maybe a lot of people doing JUDDD are older and therefore weight loss is more difficult.
3. Some people might not be really following JUDDD exactly as written, for example, like me! Having WAY too many UUAA days.

By the way, this is absolutely not a criticism at all of JUDDD or of anyone's way of doing things. It's just a curiosity question. Thoughts? Have you found that to be surprising? Or are you the exception? (I think I consider "rapid weight loss" to be about 8-10 pounds in a month.)

Sorry,I've been totally lurking the last few weeks. SOOO busy at work. Still reading most of your posts, though!
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Old 10-24-2014, 05:51 AM   #2
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I may be the exception. When I started JUDDD, I had thyroid disease which had not yet been diagnosed (so not medicated). I was diagnosed after about 4 months on JUDDD in which time I'd lost over 40 pounds.

When I was heavier, I averaged 3 pounds/week. Some weeks more, obviously some weeks less. It eventually dropped down to about 2 pounds per week, and mostly stayed there for the duration of my loss. I lost 97 pounds the first year with JUDDD. Not as fast as some other plans, but I enjoyed myself while losing.

I DID follow my UD and DD calories to the letter, making sure to eat up to my UD calories every day. When I tried to lower them too soon, I stalled and had to increase them again.

That 97 pounds in a year also included a few planned maintenance breaks, anywhere from 2-6 weeks of eating at maintenance calories at a shot.
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Old 10-24-2014, 08:29 AM   #3
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Thanks for your input, Kieras_mom! 3 pounds a week is a GREAT rate of loss, as is 2 pounds a week! Actually, that's sort of what I would expect if you did follow JUDDD to the letter, unless there is some medical reason...
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:01 AM   #4
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I started 4:3 on June 19 weighing 130. Today, I weigh 119/120.

I suppose that is slow, but it has never felt slow to me.

I guess I would fall into category 3, because I'm doing 4:3, not JUDDD, but I have been very strict about my DDs and I eat LC.
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:23 AM   #5
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I went from 189lbs to 126lbs in under 11 months- so 63 pounds in just over 10 months. I have PCOS, but never really felt like that slowed me down. In months were I did not have a vacation I lost between 8-11 pounds. I think in those 10-11 months I took 2 vacations- each about 1 week and I took a 3-4 week maintenance break as well.

I've never felt that JUDDD was slow weight loss. I also enjoyed every moment of JUDDD and never felt deprived. I still love my DDs even though I do 5:2 in maintanence. This WOE just seems so sustainable- so maybe my weight loss was slow, but it didn't feel like it at the time.

I kept my DDs very low (typically 150 calories), but stopped counting UDs after the first month. I guess we all have different experiences.
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:33 AM   #6
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MargD, do you think it's the LC that has primarily contributed to your loss or the 4:3? Were you doing LC alone before and stalled?

Carly, you had a GREAT rate of loss, too! I think when I mean slow, I'm talking about people who seem to hover around the same weight, gaining and losing the same few pounds while having all these down days. I guess I don't understand how that's possible. I'm just wondering if there could be other things at play.

I LOVE hearing about people who just did it as written and lost at great rates!
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:43 AM   #7
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I think it's possible for it to be slow because I think the only thing at play is calorie balance, and if your UDs are high enough, the deficit is low and weight loss will be slow.

I'm new to it, only about 7 weeks in, but am losing maybe .5lb/week on average but I'm not young (49) and not terribly overweight (BMI of 26). I know from years of Fitbit use and logging I only burn maybe 1700/day on average. So if my UDs are say 2500 calories, when you average those with 500 calorie DDs, my deficit per day is only 200ish calories (and that's with perfect logging, which isn't likely). At that deficit, it's going to take me 2-3 weeks to lose a pound.
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:02 AM   #8
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I also wonder if a lot of us come to JUDDD in the middle of our weight loss journey? I know that's not entirely true for Dawn and Carly, and maybe not as true recently since more and more people know about JUDDD. But when I first heard about JUDDD two years ago, it was because I was already on a low-carb diet, on a low-carb forum and had already lost half my goal weight. I know a lot of people come to JUDDD from low-carb, so if they're already a portion of the way through their weight loss, it makes sense that the weight is coming off more slowly, maybe?
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:34 AM   #9
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Perhaps being a lot older (74) than most here, it is a slow-go for me. I have maintained a weight (give or take a couple pounds)for ten years and as a type 2 diabetic follow a very low carb (30/day or under)plan, no grains, cereals, pasta, rice, potatoes or bread (unless I make my own with nut flour). I also take thyroid meds. I decided to begin JUDDD because I must be the only gal in the world that did not lose on vlc (I also weigh, measure, count & log every bite).

So...here I am.

I seem to be bouncing up and down and follow the plan with the exception of up days when I don't seem to be able to eat as much as recommended, but I'm close. DD are 500 with some under 400.

It is interesting reading of the wonderful successes on this plan, I would so like to be one of them.
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Old 10-24-2014, 10:51 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by olehcat View Post
MargD, do you think it's the LC that has primarily contributed to your loss or the 4:3? Were you doing LC alone before and stalled?
I stalled, and was even gaining on LC alone.

I really don't know if LC has been a big contributor to my 4:3 success, but I'm very content eating this way, so I have no plans to find out.
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Old 10-24-2014, 11:16 AM   #11
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I'm somewhat unique because JUDDD was my 'salvation,' but by others' standards, I lost very slowly.

I was in the middle of my weight loss (doing VLC--a necessity for me), and I stalled mainly because of age (I was about 68 at the time), hypothyroidism, and what my endo calls my 'genetically slow metabolism.' Once I'd lost about 80 lbs, I could not lose unless I ate about 900 cal a day, but I had difficulty sustaining that low level.

That's when I began JUDDD, solely as a way to manage my calories--and it worked. I lost steadily (a pound a week) to goal. While that may seem 'slow,' it was a miracle for me. I used the calculator to determine my DDs, and then figured UDs to stay at an average of 900 cal (I began at 400/1400 and near the end, my UDs were 1200). I maintain now at just about 1,100.

I still eat very low carb to manage my weight--and while I don't 'do JUDDD' now, I cycle my calories to manage some 'treat' days.
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Old 10-24-2014, 12:20 PM   #12
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Leo41, thank you for your post, it is helpful to hear of others who may have had a slower loss that one might expect. I would be thrilled with a loss of a pound a week!

Congratulations on your maintenance and continued well-being.
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Old 10-24-2014, 01:43 PM   #13
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Catalinagal-
I just saw your previous post, and we are similar--except that I'm not diabetic--i.e., hypothyroid and 'of an age.'

I'm 73 now and have been maintaining my weight loss (within 10 lbs) for the past 5 years--after a lifetime of morbid obesity. People say that a menopause makes weight loss difficult, and while that may be true, I experienced my only true success in weight management in my old age!

One of the reasons I eat VLC (apart from my sensitivity to carbs) is that all my siblings developed Type 2, and, as I tell my endo, I eat like a diabetic to avoid becoming one. He thinks there's something to that--and has been my biggest cheerleader with weight loss. He really thinks that JUDDD is wonderful.

You may be interested in the fact that when I began JUDDD, I contacted Dr. Johnson to ask about UD calories because the calculator numbers were much too high for me. I already knew my calorie limits. He told me that the important number was DD and that I could adjust the UD numbers in any way that worked for me, as they are only 'estimates' of what a person's maintenance level would be.

I wish you well!
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:07 PM   #14
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I think it's possible for it to be slow because I think the only thing at play is calorie balance, and if your UDs are high enough, the deficit is low and weight loss will be slow.

I'm new to it, only about 7 weeks in, but am losing maybe .5lb/week on average but I'm not young (49) and not terribly overweight (BMI of 26). I know from years of Fitbit use and logging I only burn maybe 1700/day on average. So if my UDs are say 2500 calories, when you average those with 500 calorie DDs, my deficit per day is only 200ish calories (and that's with perfect logging, which isn't likely). At that deficit, it's going to take me 2-3 weeks to lose a pound.
But Dr. Johnson's calculator doesn't recommend 2500 for your UD- right? You are just saying that your UD turns out to be 2500?

My Fitbit has me burning between 1,600-1,900 a day based on how active I am, but I always stay closer to 1,500-1,600 on UDs or I gain and that is with 2 DDs a week under 400. I can have the occasional UD around 1,800, but not more than once a month. I don't know if the Fitbit is totally accurate or if my metabolism is just slower than it should be.
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:23 PM   #15
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But Dr. Johnson's calculator doesn't recommend 2500 for your UD- right? You are just saying that your UD turns out to be 2500?

My Fitbit has me burning between 1,600-1,900 a day based on how active I am, but I always stay closer to 1,500-1,600 on UDs or I gain and that is with 2 DDs a week under 400. I can have the occasional UD around 1,800, but not more than once a month. I don't know if the Fitbit is totally accurate or if my metabolism is just slower than it should be.
No, the JUDDD calculator would have me around 400/1900. I started with UDs around there and I did lose weight faster those first weeks, but I think it still came out to about what my total calorie deficit for the week suggested.

I've been toying with not logging or post-logging UDs so I know they're getting up there and my weight loss has slowed accordingly. After reading the JUDDD book and realizing I liked the eating method, I read the Mosley book and Varady studies/reviews and wanted to try incorporating their ideas, which are less of a restriction on UDs. I don't find the DDs terribly hard but the combo of 400/1900 is a little too much restriction for me right now, after 6 months solid of restriction. I'd rather lose a little slower and enjoy my UDs some more, I guess. With the holidays around the corner, I don't want to crash and burn from diet fatigue and over-restriction and regain all I've lost this year. Maybe in Jan. I'll hit it harder.
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Old 10-24-2014, 03:26 PM   #16
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All these answers are fascinating! Thank you SO much for a great conversation about this. I can always count on JUDDD buds for that! (And even though I'm not consistently around here or contribute that much, I still consider you guys supportive JUDDD buds!)

Rabble Rouser - nice to hear your POV. I really do appreciate hearing what people REALLY do on their up days. I feel like I could easily put down 4000 calories on an up day if I allowed it!

Deedee - good point!

Catalinigal - wow, that would be hard. It seems there's a lot against you with weight loss, but you're still doing something really wonderful for your body health-wise, and I bet that you're going to see some success (even if it's slower). It's great that Leo shared her story!

MargD - the best thing is to find a way of eating that you are content with and can do long term! I tend to eat on the lower carb side (I don't buy bread, don't have sweets very often, etc., but I don't particularly eat "low carb" so it's really great to hear from people who eat in a variety of ways and do JUDDD)

Leo - your story is amazing! Such persistence and JUDDD really was your magic bullet! Really interesting about Johnson's reply about the Up day numbers. That goes along with Varady's research, too!

Johnson's calculator has me (I put myself as lightly active because I walk at work a lot and I do exercise-exercise at least 3 times a week) at close to 2000 for up days and close to 400 for down days. I have had success on 5:2 even with approximately those numbers, even having a few even bigger days (Thanksgiving week last year). I just need to buck up and start rotations again!
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Old 10-24-2014, 03:51 PM   #17
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Good discussion - thanks....
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Old 10-24-2014, 04:22 PM   #18
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Just reading all the dd recipes has been a revelation! For over ten years I have not bought anything intentionally that was low fat or packaged because of the extra carbs (most low-fat products have more sugar). Many of the dd ideas (and they are terrific btw) use low fat products or foods that are pre-packaged. I won't have any trouble making things work for me on JUDDD, it will just have to be whole foods, vlc and satisfying. So far, I have been able to sustain this woe, but perhaps the method I am using is also contributing to my slow weight loss. I think my body needs to re-acclimate to the alternate day process and perhaps once that is accomplished, I will see that "whoosh" that I keep reading about.
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Old 10-25-2014, 09:19 AM   #19
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Catalinagal-
I just saw your previous post, and we are similar--except that I'm not diabetic--i.e., hypothyroid and 'of an age.'

I'm 73 now and have been maintaining my weight loss (within 10 lbs) for the past 5 years--after a lifetime of morbid obesity. People say that a menopause makes weight loss difficult, and while that may be true, I experienced my only true success in weight management in my old age!

One of the reasons I eat VLC (apart from my sensitivity to carbs) is that all my siblings developed Type 2, and, as I tell my endo, I eat like a diabetic to avoid becoming one. He thinks there's something to that--and has been my biggest cheerleader with weight loss. He really thinks that JUDDD is wonderful.

You may be interested in the fact that when I began JUDDD, I contacted Dr. Johnson to ask about UD calories because the calculator numbers were much too high for me. I already knew my calorie limits. He told me that the important number was DD and that I could adjust the UD numbers in any way that worked for me, as they are only 'estimates' of what a person's maintenance level would be.

I wish you well!
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I appreciate what Dr. Johnson told you as I feel my ud calories have been around 1100 for so many years, to increase them to over that amount would be uncomfortable. Knowing the Dr. would advise adjusting the numbers makes it all more feasible.

Again, thank you!

BTW, good for you to be pro-active in your journey to avoid diabetes and also for your endo to agree with you. So much of the medical profession hasn't "gotten" it yet.

Last edited by Catalinagal; 10-25-2014 at 09:23 AM..
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Old 10-25-2014, 06:26 PM   #20
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i entered juddd after losing 18 lbs moderately low carbing (two months), intrigued over the concept. with juddd i lost, on average, a steady 1 lb per week. comparing what i used for UD (TDEE) and DDs (500 cal), i should've lost 1.5 lbs per week. i did not lose nice and neatly, let alone what i feel i deserved to lose. but i was just thankful something worked. the rest is history. so very thankful for this way of life.

i do have PCOS. i was overweight by age 8 and obese by age 11. i was faithful to juddd, quite honestly. i have never EVER lost weight like this. it has been a miracle for me.

Last edited by jenericstewart; 10-25-2014 at 06:41 PM..
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Old 10-25-2014, 07:01 PM   #21
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i entered juddd after losing 18 lbs moderately low carbing (two months), intrigued over the concept. with juddd i lost, on average, a steady 1 lb per week. comparing what i used for UD (TDEE) and DDs (500 cal), i should've lost 1.5 lbs per week. i did not lose nice and neatly, let alone what i feel i deserved to lose. but i was just thankful something worked. the rest is history. so very thankful for this way of life.

i do have PCOS. i was overweight by age 8 and obese by age 11. i was faithful to juddd, quite honestly. i have never EVER lost weight like this. it has been a miracle for me.
Thank you for your story! I am also hoping for the miracle
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Old 10-25-2014, 07:17 PM   #22
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Thank you for your story! I am also hoping for the miracle
i neglected to mention that during my journey, i had a 3 month plateau. i tried various tweaks, but making sure to stick with what juddd averaged for me (1350 calories/day), though mostly doing basic juddd. the plateau eventually broke, and within 10 days, i lost 15 lbs. i pretty much stuck with it because i was afraid to bail, lest i put on weight. juddd just plain works, though not necessarily in our time frame!
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Old 10-25-2014, 09:56 PM   #23
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Old 10-27-2014, 03:57 PM   #24
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I was faithful to JUDDD for a little over a year or more, but stalled and could not go below about 175. I briefly hit 171 after a DD, but never saw that low again. This past year I have relaxed my schedule quite a bit and put back on nearly 10 lbs, so now I just would like to see 175 again lol. I think JUDDD works well for most people, but it can be slow which can backfire if you get discouraged. Stay the course!
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Old 10-27-2014, 04:52 PM   #25
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I was faithful to JUDDD for a little over a year or more, but stalled and could not go below about 175. I briefly hit 171 after a DD, but never saw that low again. This past year I have relaxed my schedule quite a bit and put back on nearly 10 lbs, so now I just would like to see 175 again lol. I think JUDDD works well for most people, but it can be slow which can backfire if you get discouraged. Stay the course!

Yes, I can see how one could get discouraged if there is no loss and we are doing everything right. I definitely need the encouragement of a loss or it isn't going to work for me. I am so metabolically challenged, it is self-defeating.

Sooooo....are you back to doing JUDDD to see the 175? Come on...you can do it!
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Old 10-27-2014, 04:56 PM   #26
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Yes, I'm back. I never really left, but I was taking weeks in between DDs for about a month. I'm trying to get in 3 DDs a week now. Thanks for the encouragement!
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Old 10-28-2014, 04:36 AM   #27
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I think this is what I'm not understanding! I don't understand if you (you as in anyone, not you in particular, library girl, or any one particular person ) follow the plan or heck, even if you don't really count on UDs but have consistent and low DDs (thus STILL creating a larger deficit than you would have had before starting EOD), I don't get how anyone can stall or not get past a certain point (unless they are already very close to goal weight). Unless there is some crazy medical thing going on. I think it makes me feel uneasy seeing people's weigh-ins where they don't lose even a pound within a month with daily rotations. I just don't understand how it's possible, especially the people who are counting up days really meticulously. It's as if they are defying the laws of physics or something? Or is something else probably going on? I guess that's what I'm trying to understand...

I feel like JUDDD should be a sure thing for everyone. The only way it shouldn't work at all is if you managed to eat enough food on every single UD that made up for the deficit created on every single DD.

But I do get that human bodies are strange...and maybe there are just things going on that we don't know about...

But one thing I *HAVE* noticed is that even if people stall, if they stay the course, nobody seems to actually gain weight?
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Old 10-28-2014, 05:09 AM   #28
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I'll say that my UDs were higher than they were supposed to be, and I'm not very good at being strict day in and day out. What attracted me to JUDDD was that it seemed less stressful. However, I've noticed that the people who lose well also are strict, so I guess there's that lol.
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Old 10-28-2014, 05:42 AM   #29
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olehcat - I don't have much of a weight loss history but JUDDD has not been slower for me than conventional calorie counting, even with the sarcopenia.

If it's necessary that you're able to predict what will happen before you commit to a weight management plan, then JUDDD is possibly not the WOL for you tho' I'm not sure that most 'real world' as opposed to tightly-managed clinical in-stay plans would meet your needs.

Weight loss is rational, linear and predictable for some people and demographics (I'm going to say - active young men and for some people for whom it's their first weight loss attempt). Beyond that - the bets are off. Not even all WLS people lose in a predictable/linear fashion.

Between metabolic adjustment and genetic up or down-regulations, hormones, endocrine variables, our environment, life stresses, and the weirdnesses that some of us seem to stuff water into our fat cells and then release it when we archive those fat cells (hence the lengthy plateaus followed by drops every day and then another plateau that some of us show in our weigh-ins) - our present state of knowledge means that weight management is neither predictable nor rational for some of us.

I'm not surprised by people's weigh-ins. I sometimes think that there's so much going on in people's lives (not all of which is appropriate to mention on a public forum) that it's amazing that people are managing to maintain as well as they do.

Food is a comparatively cheap, universally available, socially acceptable form of entertainment and emotional solace - sorting out other areas of life and establishing new emotional habits or sources of entertainment can require a lot of work and be very expensive. Plus - changing your weight when you're having to think about and manage your food intake is quite a trick. I admire and applaud people who can stick with a process and forbear from making their situation worse until such time as they can handle the other things that they'd need to do. (Eg, acquiring the emotional skills to have difficult conversations rather than eat emotions; discovering an activity that suits you and meets physical or emotional needs.)

Eventually, JUDDD comes down to trusting the process. This is not some 'rub goat tallow on your neck, drink the tisane of a herb gathered at the vernal equinox' diet plan - it's something for which the maths and the rationale is sound but the individual progress or revelation of results is unclear. tbh - a lot of medical drugs and treatments are similar. You can roughly predict someone's response to (say) anti-inflammatories but you can't predict all of the epigenetic and other changes that will co-occur. Some people benefit from particular surgeries and others don't. We take decisions that maximise our benefit and minimise the potential risk but few of these things are wholly predictable.

Maybe, somewhere in the future, there is the Perfect Plan that people will fully understand before embarking upon it and which people can correct the moment it doesn't conform to expectations as there will be a ready explanation for it. Until then, I think we need to play the percentages and trust a process that has an evidence base behind it and for which there is some real world feedback.

Until then - what would you be sacrificing by following simple JUDDD and committing to it for 6 weeks? It must be >6 weeks since you started considering it and wondering if it would work for you and I'm not sure what you've been doing or how your weight has been in the interim.
I think I'm ready...
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I'm assuming that your searches have not identified a different plan that meets the criteria of predictable, rational results that mean something to you and have a track record of sustainability?

If you suspect there's a medical issue then you need investigations - it might be easier to persuade your HCP to order the necessary tests if you can go in with a documented plan of what you did and what your results were - such as a detailed, accurate food log. Have you been keeping one as a means of establishing a baseline against which you might compare any results for any plan that you adopt? Are the numbers surprising you?

The above is a fairly rambling jumble and the tone may be a little more jarring than I'd care for it to be in places. Nonetheless, much as I would advise people to plan and strategise - I do think there's a time when analysis paralysis can become its own problem. What would you gain from a greater 'understanding' of JUDDD or the reality of people's weigh-in results? It's useful to re-hash these issues for but have maintainers'/veterans' answers changed much from the last time you made these enquiries - or sufficiently to provide a new insight?

If so - would you mind rewarding people's detailed answers to you by summarising what you've learned?
__________________
Motto: SINS - Simple Is the New Sustainable

Dec 2014 A DXA scan reported very low muscle mass (sarcopenia) so I'm still thinking about how to cope with that. I have some joint surgery to schedule. I may miss questions that people ask me or personals. Apologies if I do, it's not intentional.

Last edited by SlowSure; 10-28-2014 at 05:47 AM..
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Old 10-28-2014, 05:55 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olehcat View Post
if you don't really count on UDs but have consistent and low DDs (thus STILL creating a larger deficit than you would have had before starting EOD), I don't get how anyone can stall or not get past a certain point (unless they are already very close to goal weight).
i ALWAYS counted my UDs, rarely had an UUAA day; i stalled for three months when i was around 250 lbs. but i was losing inches. when it came off, it came off fast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by olehcat View Post
Unless there is some crazy medical thing going on.
this would definitely be me. years ago, i went on optifast. i came into the doctor's office after 3 weeks, and he was furious at me cause the scale didn't budge. he told me i had to be cheating. (that's when i gave up dieting altogether. i figured i was a lost cause. after all, doctors know it all, right?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by olehcat View Post
I think it makes me feel uneasy seeing people's weigh-ins where they don't lose even a pound within a month with daily rotations.
i believe that most everyone will have at least one plateau in their journey. just because the scale doesn't show it, doesn't mean the tape measure won't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by olehcat View Post
I just don't understand how it's possible, especially the people who are counting up days really meticulously. It's as if they are defying the laws of physics or something? Or is something else probably going on?
i suspect that some of the people that don't lose weight are just not being honest with themselves. they don't have a true concept of calories. (a 300 lb friend of mine told me that she could NEVER eat my UD calories [2200] because it was way too much food. i calculated the meal she was eating with me while we were at mcdonald's that day, and it was probably close to 2000 just within that meal!
Quote:
Originally Posted by olehcat View Post
I feel like JUDDD should be a sure thing for everyone.
i was a very hard case. i believe that juddd would work for anyone that is honest with themselves and they give it a try.
Quote:
Originally Posted by olehcat View Post
But one thing I *HAVE* noticed is that even if people stall, if they stay the course, nobody seems to actually gain weight?
if they do, i suspect they're not being honest. imho
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