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Old 05-23-2014, 02:25 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by LoCarbGal View Post
Ferk, I hope you don't feel like we're ganging up on you! That was not my intention and, I'm sure, is not the intention of anyone here. Your thoughts are welcome and as valid as anyone else's. And if JUDDDing and HDE don't sync up for you because you feel "diety" on DDs, then by all means, don't do it! Not yet anyway....you may change your mind on down the road.

I do get where you're coming from. In the beginning, JUDDD feels amazingly free on UDs, but consists of some pretty serious restriction on DDs. Very different from anything most people have ever tried. And DDs can be quite challenging, even after you've been doing it for awhile. But once it's ingrained, mostly it feels like no big deal, which is where I was coming from in my response.

And Christina, thanks for the reminder that Dr. Johnson suggests not counting on UDs. I guess I have blocked that out because when I read it I was feeling very restricted by my calorie counts and thought "Yeah right, like I will ever come even near as low as 1750 calories if I don't count." Now, I don't know where I come in, but I'm betting that some UDs are right around there or even lower. Some are higher, I'm sure.


Great post. We did not mean anything against your thoughts, Ferk. We have been doing JUDDD for a long time now, so I think we look at it a bit differently. If I was just starting out, I would just follow JUDDD and not try anything else.

I think that asking yourself if you really are hungry or if you are eating because of some other factor, then IE thoughts are great to run through your head at any time.
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Old 05-23-2014, 04:15 PM   #62
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We do have several JUDDDers here who have not counted UDs almost from day one and have been tremendously successful, including getting to and maintaining their goal weight. I'm using them as my role models!
I haven't counted UDs since part way into my first month.

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I hadn’t realised that the new book didn’t specify calories for up days. I’ve never counted them. I don’t treat them as a complete free-for-all, but I don’t count, or worry about being terribly strict either.
this is exactly how I feel about UD. I eat if I'm hungry- I don't if I'm not or not until I'm hungry.
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Old 06-02-2014, 03:14 PM   #63
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I haven't counted UDs since part way into my first month.



this is exactly how I feel about UD. I eat if I'm hungry- I don't if I'm not or not until I'm hungry.
So glad I ran across this because even after just a week on JUDDD, I usually don't feel like trying to get all the calories my UD says I should have (2268) because I'm full. I'm closer to 1500-1700 and have wondered if this would mean slow weight loss. It's kinda reverse psychology I guess. If I *have* to eat more then I don't wanna LOL. We humans are goofy! Anyway, I don't really want to have to count up days. Glad to see it's working just fine for those of you who have been doing this awhile.
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Old 06-16-2014, 10:22 AM   #64
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After I read the book I took a 2 month break from JUDDD and did just HDE. Last week I decided to give it a try again to see if I could control my UDs. It seems to be working like a charm. I've had no urges to overeat so far. The principles in "Skinny Jeans" are excellent for both UDs and DDs.
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Old 06-16-2014, 01:04 PM   #65
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After I read the book I took a 2 month break from JUDDD and did just HDE. Last week I decided to give it a try again to see if I could control my UDs. It seems to be working like a charm. I've had no urges to overeat so far. The principles in "Skinny Jeans" are excellent for both UDs and DDs.
So happy to hear this, you are doing so well
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Old 06-16-2014, 03:53 PM   #66
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oh! I have that book on my ipad! I should definitely reread! Thanks for the rec!
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Old 10-08-2014, 06:26 AM   #67
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Old 10-14-2014, 09:37 AM   #68
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JUDDD and Intuitive Eating

I'm reading the Tribole and Spinardi books simultaneously. Tribole insists that you can't practice intuitive eating (IE) and retain the "diet mentality" that restricts your eating to specific quantities/types of foods, such as we do with the JUDDD WOE. Weight loss is to be a happy side effect, if it happens at all, to developing a "normal," healthy WOE for life.

Tribole describes the experience of one woman who ate intuitively for a period of weeks or months, felt slimmer, better, and then made the mistake of weighing herself on her bathroom scale. She was devastated to find that she'd lost very little weight, and immediately resumed her previous dieting/bingeing cycle of behavior. So much for IE and weight loss.

I believe that IE is ideal for maintaining weight loss, and indeed for assessing hunger and satiety on our DDs and UDs, but it's not going shift these 25 pounds I need to evict. As a dieting warhorse, alternate day calorie restriction has proven to be just about the only way I make any progress losing. JMHO, and I'd love to hear yours!
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Old 10-14-2014, 10:42 AM   #69
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I'm about 2/3 through the Spinardi book. I've read maybe ten other books on intuitive eating and I have to admit this one isn't a favorite. To me it reads more like a persuasive blog. A lot of hyperbole and caps and slang and not much real world support, mainly just claims. Though there have been lots of good insights already and I'm glad I have it and might appreciate it more when I'm done with it.

The book is loanable one time so if anyone here needs a copy to read, I'd be glad to lend you mine when I finish it.

I'm dying to read the Krista Varady book so if anyone has the Kindle version and is willing to loan it, I'd love to borrow it!

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Old 10-14-2014, 11:00 AM   #70
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Thank you so much for this book rec. I read it over the weekend and plan to reread it and try to put some of the techniques into practice. It made a ton of sense to me!
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Old 10-14-2014, 11:07 AM   #71
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It is very conversational, but I liked her presentation of the ideas. I've read it several times over to remind myself of the concepts, and I could read it several more. Somehow I fully understand all the concepts as I read them, but then when it comes time to apply them, I don't remember (or don't want to).
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Old 10-14-2014, 12:44 PM   #72
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Gillian Riley "Eating Less" is my favourite. But her fist book that is the most comprehensive is not available on Kindle. I am currently reading Jon Gabriel "The Gabriel Method" just half way through at the moment, it is a different slant and I am finding it very interesting so far.
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Old 10-14-2014, 01:00 PM   #73
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Gillian Riley "Eating Less" is my favourite. But her fist book that is the most comprehensive is not available on Kindle. I am currently reading Jon Gabriel "The Gabriel Method" just half way through at the moment, it is a different slant and I am finding it very interesting so far.
I really liked this book, and am implementing a lot of his ideas. I listen to his evening meditation as I fall asleep most nights. Love it.
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Old 10-20-2014, 07:22 AM   #74
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I love this book! I also bought the audio version via Josie's site and it's quite helpful to hear it as well.
Where you able to listen to it on your phone too or just the computer? When I clicked on her site to buy the audio it wasn't clear if it would download into my kindle or audible and at 24.95 I wanted to make sure before laying down that kind of cash.
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Old 10-21-2014, 09:56 AM   #75
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Joanna - thanks for bumping this thread for me! I read over it ten days ago, but didn't see that post of yours. I just was rereading the thread again and saw it..

I downloaded Josie's book last week and have read most of it. I am no stranger to IE/HDE and have most of the books out there... I have tried it, too and long term did not gain much - but I also did not lose. I have no dreams of being a super model, but I would like to be thinner to be healthier and enjoy my life to the max. I would love to think that HDE could work for me long term, but it's hard to get rid of the 45+ years of dieting experience and head trash that tells me that if I don't somehow restrict I will never lose.

I was reading the book while coming home from a 4 day family reunion vacation where I gave myself permission to go off my LC/IF plan. At first I thought Josie wasn't telling me anything new, and for the first half of the book she wasn't - although I enjoyed her casual style. She was totally describing me, and although I am not a total 5,000 calorie binger, I am definitely an overeater on the days where I am "starting again tomorrow".

Anyway, I have the rest of the book to read... and she does give some good tips that can be incorporated into UD's now. I know I'll be rereading it and my other IE books over the next couple of months.

I have yet to meet someone on any IE/HDE forum that has lost a significant amount of weight doing it and kept it off. Sure, the author of the book did and there must be some people who are successful.. I doubt the statistics are any different than the 5% of the dieting population who are successful long term on maintaining their weight loss on any diet.

To sum up my feelings, I think HDE is great for UD's, and maintaining a loss. And I plan to try to ingrain the principles because I do plan to toss in periods of maintaining as I lose (fingers crossed!)..

Thanks for everyone's input on this thread!
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Old 10-23-2014, 03:30 AM   #76
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Has anyone read "Eat for Heat" by Matt Stone? I am only about half way through and not sure what to make of it. Would be very interested to hear from anyone else that has read it and particularly if anyone has ever followed his advice. It is very worrying what he says about drinking water, which makes sense!!

LowCarbGal, I generally read when I go to bed until I am ready to fall asleep but do want to give Jon Gabriel's meditation a try at some stage. Are you using his strategies? After starting reading the above I am totally confused now so not sure what I will be doing.
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Old 10-23-2014, 07:55 AM   #77
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Yes, WJS I read Matt Stone's book.. I have it on my Kindle and am pretty sure I read the whole thing. If I recall, it's basically an anti-dieting book.. his theory is that dieting slows down our metabolism and makes us even fatter in the long run. I believe there is much truth in the philosophy that daily low calorie dieting puts our body in starvation mode, thereby lowering our metabolism. So does heavy cardio for long periods of time. And then of course there is the binge factor when we've been deprived of something. And when we do heavy cardio we are just hungrier.

What many of us are doing here at LCF isn't daily low calorie dieting however - so I think we are better off. Low Carb is not usually low calorie unless we make it that way. JUDDD mixes things up and 4:3 and 5:2 mixes things up.

If we couple mixing things up dietarily (is that a word?) and doing more resistance training and High Intensity Interval training (HIIT) instead of heavy cardio, many of the experts say our metabolisms will be much better off.
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Old 10-23-2014, 08:32 AM   #78
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Thank you Digpal. I have been reading lots of anti diet books like Josie Spinardi which is just one but his is completely different to put it mildly. For one he talks about the recommendation of drinking too much water that he believes causes over hydration which he says lowers the metabolism. Also the need for more salt!! As well as sugar in some cases.

It would be so interesting to hear if anyone has followed his recommendations.
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Old 10-23-2014, 01:30 PM   #79
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Has anyone read "Eat for Heat" by Matt Stone? I am only about half way through and not sure what to make of it. Would be very interested to hear from anyone else that has read it and particularly if anyone has ever followed his advice. It is very worrying what he says about drinking water, which makes sense!!

LowCarbGal, I generally read when I go to bed until I am ready to fall asleep but do want to give Jon Gabriel's meditation a try at some stage. Are you using his strategies? After starting reading the above I am totally confused now so not sure what I will be doing.
WJS, he (Jon Gabriel) says its perfectly fine to fall asleep to his meditation...in fact, the music behind the meditation/visualization is designed to help you do just that. I have been following some of his strategies, such as adding in much more produce and healthy foods, and allowing them to naturally crowd out some of the more junky stuff.
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Old 10-25-2014, 02:42 AM   #80
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In the same vein, I've seen people recommend Isabel Foxen Duke. I've just seen this from her:
Quote:
A client recently asked me for more “practical solutions” (aka more immediate solutions) to ending emotional eating than my general recommendation...

which is some version of “stop hating your body, and get a life outside of food.”

When asked, I was immediately reminded of a time in my life when this recommendation didn’t work for me either...

I didn’t want to work on liking my body, I just wanted to stop eating and get thin.

I didn’t want to stare my cultural and social bias around weight in the face, I just wanted to stop eating and get thin.

I didn’t want to question whether or not emotional eating is even “wrong,” I just wanted to stop eating and get thin.

And I certainly didn’t want to address my underlying emotional hungers unless doing so would help me stop eating and get thin.

The problem with this frame of mind is that grasping for "an end to emotional eating" (which who are we kidding, is really just grasping for thinness) as an exclusive motivation for doing this work is completely self-sabotaging.

We eat emotionally in direct proportion to our pre-occupation with food, and our pre-occupation with food is a simple function of how badly we want to control our weight and our behaviors.

When all we care about is weight loss, all we care about is food — and when all we care about is food, emotional eating is an almost certain outcome.


On the flipside,

when we stop trying to control our bodies,

when we respect our bodies where ever they may land,

when our weight no longer dictates our self-esteem,

when caring for ourselves emotionally comes from a sincere desire to change our lives, and not just our outward appearance,

food loses [its] power...it becomes less and less important

...and yes, we finally create space for ourselves to develop new coping mechanisms outside of food. Yes, emotional eating does drop off on [its] own without much effort — ironically, when we no longer care if we’re eating emotionally to begin with.
I have to say that altho' I grasp the overall point of this, I'd never have introduced it as a 'practical solution' tho' I do understand it in the context of a client who is euphemistically requesting more immediate solutions within the specific framework of emotional eating.
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Old 10-25-2014, 07:14 AM   #81
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I love that SlowSure - it does make so much sense.. I'll look up her book. Right now "all I want to do is be thinner".. That is true. ugh!
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Old 10-25-2014, 08:36 AM   #82
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SlowSure- I really like what you posted.
On this side of the journey I feel that her statement rings true for me, but that is because I'm where I'm at- IYKWM. I don't think it would have been helpful for me early on in my weight loss.

It's sort of like that saying- "If only I knew then, what I know now." The thing is that I know what I know now by going through it- muddling my way sometimes. I don't know if that makes sense or not.
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Old 10-25-2014, 08:31 PM   #83
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I am definitely gonna add that book to my wishlist and read it after I read the book about the JUDDD diet. Just got it on my kindle a few days ago. Thanks for the suggestions. Great thread!
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Old 10-26-2014, 04:41 AM   #84
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On this side of the journey I feel that her statement rings true for me, but that is because I'm where I'm at- IYKWM. I don't think it would have been helpful for me early on in my weight loss.
It makes a lot of sense to me because I feel the same way.

But, that's it. It's almost the 'recollection in tranquillity' feel about it - it absolutely makes sense to those of us in maintenance or at particular stages but for someone who needs an 'immediate solution' it must feel like so much bromide or an irritating platitude.

It's true that a lot of us need/ed to change our attitude to food in order to achieve what we want - I suppose it's the problem that almost nobody wants to listen to that at the outset of their journey and few people want to travel off in what feels like a diversion from their main path. Although, it seems, that very few people will get where they need to be unless they do this - and it turns out that it's not a diversion, just a very good way of getting there (and possibly essential if emotional eating is a major contributor to why you needed to change your food intake to manage health/weight issues).

I don't know how psychologists or counsellors get around this with clients - or, by and large, do they not? Or, is it the sort of path described by Spinardi, Riley, Foxen Duke etc.?
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Old 10-26-2014, 04:45 AM   #85
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But, that's it. It's almost the 'recollection in tranquillity' feel about it - it absolutely makes sense to those of us in maintenance or at particular stages but for someone who needs an 'immediate solution' it must feel like so much bromide or an irritating platitude.
Absolutely this! If I had read that when I still needed to lose over 100 pounds, I would have been thoroughly disheartened. Looking back, of course, it makes perfect sense.
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Old 10-26-2014, 06:16 AM   #86
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I feel like I'm getting little flickers of this in my brain. More and more, I hate how I've let myself get overweight, but it's no longer just about the appearance, it's about how I feel, how my body moves, the health stuff, too. I miss when I was light and fit, want that feeling back. I really want to change my entire attitude to food and not think so much about it. I would SO much rather eat to live than live to eat.
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Old 10-26-2014, 09:36 AM   #87
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I don't know how psychologists or counsellors get around this with clients - or, by and large, do they not? Or, is it the sort of path described by Spinardi, Riley, Foxen Duke etc.?
I have a feeling that this depends very much on the type of treatment that the patient is seeking and the type of evidenced based practiced that the clinician is trained in or is comfortable with. I think a CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) approach could work very well for some people and others may respond well to a very basic supportive talk therapy approach.

I think, too, it depends if someone has a serious, diagnosable eating disorder vs. someone who may have some challenges with emotional eating under certain stressors. If it is the later- I would approach it from the stand point of helping the patient learn adaptive coping skills for the specific stressor(s) that lead to emotional eating. So, if someone over eats when they don't feel heard at home or in the work place I would work with the patient on developing assertive communication skills, which would hopefully empower them in those situations and reduce the frequencies of emotional over eating.

Once someone has crossed the line into a diagnosable eating disorder they really require specialized and often comprehensive treatment and hopefully they seek out a practitioner who is really skilled in that area.
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Old 10-26-2014, 12:02 PM   #88
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I think with eating it's a sticky issue because it will always be a comforting thing for humans. One of our first acts is to cry and be soothed by food. It's normal and ok for sustenance to feel good, and for eating to be part of social occasions and celebrations.

I find the emotional aspects of fasting really interesting because I find it's not physical hunger that bothers me on DDs so much as feeling like a small child who didn't get 'enough' of whatever it was that there wasn't enough of back then-- parental time, attention, whatever. It's interesting to address head on how I 'treat' myself with food, because in a way I feel like I'm telling myself, "you ARE worth (whatever you want)" now. And it's interesting to find other ways on fast days to address it, or just to sit and live with the thought itself, with the awareness that I'm not a child and I can wait for the good feelings food brings and it has everything to do with self-worth, and also nothing. If that makes any sense.
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Old 10-27-2014, 09:17 AM   #89
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Rabble Rouser - YES! I didn't put it into words in my brain the other day, but I had this wave of a strange feeling on my last DD (before today). I was working at my friends' shop all day and I noticed that it was approx. 2PM and I wasn't hungry. Instead of feeling glad and empowered that I was on a DD and doing something positive for my health, and not hungry, I felt a wave of emptiness and disappointment. Both that I wasn't hungry, AND even if I was I didn't have much with me at the shop that I could eat. Food has been entertainment for me for so long, it's hard to separate it as a way of fueling myself.

I am also trying to get in touch with that inner child who has always soothed herself with food. Food has always been the answer to everything - starting at a very young age. I am learning now at the age of 58 that I didn't get enough love and attention as a child, but food no longer can be the healer and fixer of that deprivation. It IS all about sitting and talking through it with myself and reminding myself that what I am doing is a positive thing for me. I am worth becoming healthier even if I have momentary feelings of deprivation. I suppose if I think it enough times It will become my truth.

Rabble - thanks for your comments. It really helped!
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Old 10-28-2014, 02:58 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly View Post
I have a feeling that this depends very much on the type of treatment that the patient is seeking and the type of evidenced based practiced that the clinician is trained in or is comfortable with...
Once someone has crossed the line into a diagnosable eating disorder they really require specialized and often comprehensive treatment and hopefully they seek out a practitioner who is really skilled in that area.
I'd agree with all of that post, Carly. I don't know how straightforward it is to obtain a referral in the US but I'm aware that it's remarkably difficult to be referred to an NHS facility in the UK unless someone is >35 BMI or <16.0 BMI.

I did read an overview of Brain Over Binge that was intriguing. In a nutshell, I think the author had had years of eating disorders and counselling for it but felt the latter had given her reasons for the former, and lots of understanding, but no straightforward directive such as, "Don't hurt yourself: Don't Binge, ever". I gather the book created a fair amount of controversy.

I hope that it's straightforward for people who need counselling for emotional eating or eatings disorders to obtain it.
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