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MillyBee 04-02-2014 08:10 AM

BMR
 
Are any of you concerned about BMR calories not being met with the JUDDD woe?

I was adding up the DD and UD cals and realized that even at maintenance, following the chart on D. J's site, I wouldn't be eating enough calories to maintain my BMR. With light excersize the chart meets the bmr recommended cals, but then supposedly I would be burning those up by excersize and therefore the excersize cals would eat up my bmr cals.

Normally its assumed that eating below bmr caloric intake will reduce muscle mass and slow metabolism.

Has anyone thoughts on this?

LoCarbGal 04-02-2014 08:41 AM

Only recently have I become concerned with this, Milly. Mostly because my losses stalled and I began to wonder how far down I would actually have to go to keep losing. As long as I was losing, I didn't much care, which is totally short-sighted. That's why I am experimenting with getting my metabolism back up there and eating more. Hoping it works!

MillyBee 04-02-2014 09:51 AM

Carol I think it will work! From what you have posted and I'm so interested to watch your results.

I have been reading a lot of the maintenance threads here and began to think about what my caloric intake would look like at maintenance. It inspired me into being sure I get in all calories on the UD's and resist trying to eat less even if i dont get any excersize. I dread being caught again in the syndrome of eating around 1200 cals a day and gaining slowly week by week.:mad:

Maybe there is something in the JUDDD plan that sort of fools the body for a while because the UD is so plentiful? Then eventually we adjust and even in maintenance, calorie restriction below bmr is necessary. :dunno: I dont know but I think I will be very careful this time. And try everything to learn how to make maintenance easier. What i learned from years of maintenance is that it has to be, within reason, easy to do, or eventually I may cave in and ignore all the things i know including the changes I've made regarding healthier habits like more vegs, rarely do sugar etc.

I'm not at maintenance but I can see that its not too long off the way things are progressing for me and I feel apprehensive in some ways.

Maybe I will fill some water bottles and try a few muscle building moves in future. My calesthenic work out is pretty good if I keep at it and that could feature in as well. Perhaps I will cut back on excersize now and save these for maintenance while adding calories could be used to make more muscles. :)

SlowSure 04-02-2014 10:37 AM

Ah, you've found the maintenance threads and can see that a number of us are working on this. I know that Caloric Restriction people would consider a low food intake, low exertion lifestyle to be ideal but I'm not as yet convinced that it's appropriate for people who've lived in a different style for a fair length of time.

Which is why I'm actively working at increasing my food intake to retain my metabolic flexibility. :) Within my current understanding of my metabolism and physiology/anatomy, I'm aiming for the equivalent of 1750kcals a day and building up to it very gradually.

vanilla_latte 04-02-2014 10:45 AM

Subbing, because I'm curious, too.

calichris 04-02-2014 11:19 AM

It's so confusing, isn't it Millie? Some people are very adamant that you NOT GO UNDER YOUR BMR CALORIES EVER. However, with JUDDD the theory is that by eating maintenance every other day, it doesn't affect your metabolism this way.... but on the other hand, the average calories is quite low. I had great results with JUDDD, but eventually I think my metabolism might have slowed. That could happen on any calorie restricted diet, but I was sad to find out from body fat testing that for two months I did not lose any fat on calories that should have resulted in a loss. So I took a break from EOD fasting for a few weeks, and now I'm experimenting with a 35% DD 3 days a week, 3 days maintenance calories, and one higher day a week, plus regular breaks every 6-12 weeks, when I'll have maintenance calories every day for a week or two. I don't know if it will work and I am expecting it to be slow, but I hope it is good for my metabolism? :aprayer: I'm trying to incorporate the metabolism-saving ideas I've been reading. I'm also doing weight lifting and shooting for at least 100g protein a day to preserve LBM, which is also good for metabolism.

deedee 04-02-2014 12:24 PM

Chris how are you calculating your maintenance calories, TDEE? So very interested to see how this works out for you!

Joyjoy 04-02-2014 12:33 PM

Crikey, and I'm moving up to TDEE levels every day to see what happens.
My guess is that different woes work for different folks, and that some work for a while and then don't work. :confused::stars:
When I got down to my goal weight w Juddd, I had problems with hair loss, crappy skin, and muscle loss. I may have lost too much (?), I may have lost it with less than ideal nutrition (?), or it may have been related to the stress of constant restraint (?). No idea. Anyway, I gained some weight back and found my shape had changed to something less muscular. (Oh yeah, menopause may also be a factor here. :stars:)
So I'm back to heavy weights, short, high intensity workouts, and way more food.
I do think that with all the experiments going on, we're bound to learn more about how best to do Juddd and how to troubleshoot stalls and other concerns.
This is exciting.:):heart:

Librarygirl 04-02-2014 12:53 PM

I eat more than my JUDDD calories most of the time, and have a very difficult time losing. I was going down lower than I had in a while, but had a MD (instead of a DD) and a double UD and I'm back to what I was before, about 6 lbs over my lowest--which was reached about 4 months ago never to be seen again. Might have been longer than that...seems like I'm constantly striving to lose, but end up maintaining more or less. :( The only thing I think might work for me to lose (well) would be to eat way less, or exercise way more. Both of which I have been resisting doing...

cici52 04-02-2014 01:22 PM

Subbing.

gotsomeold 04-02-2014 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joyjoy (Post 16860607)
...
When I got down to my goal weight w Juddd, I had problems with hair loss, crappy skin, and muscle loss. I may have lost too much (?), I may have lost it with less than ideal nutrition (?), or it may have been related to the stress of constant restraint (?). No idea. Anyway, I gained some weight back and found my shape had changed to something less muscular. (Oh yeah, menopause may also be a factor here. :stars:).....

I, on the other hand, watched my muscle definition improve without upping my exercise levels, my skin and hair improved significantly, and many physical-stress related issues like allergies and arthritis reduced/vanished during and weight loss and maintenance.

I worried about BMR, yes. Mostly because I had to work to eat enough on UDs (and 'enough' was defined as pretty close to or over BMR). And, for my metabolism, JUDDD worked/is working great.

My exercise levels are moderate to low. I suspect the question becomes much more complicated with high exercise rates ..... or maybe it depends on metabolism.

MillyBee 04-02-2014 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowSure (Post 16860431)
Ah, you've found the maintenance threads and can see that a number of us are working on this.

I'm aiming for the equivalent of 1750kcals a day and building up to it very gradually.

Yes, I did read a lot on maintenance and it alerted me to the problem of the eventual difficulties involved in maintaining a low weight with a level of caloric intake below what is possible for to maintain a healthy body.

1750 cals would be brilliant! It sounds like you have delicate balance figured out.

When I ate 2000 my weight settled in at around 150.
If i had excersized I think i may have been much happier at that size.



Calchris, i read about the protein and weight lifting too. I usually eat plenty of protein, but not 100 grams. If i start any serious lifting of water bottles i could increase it more and maybe see results. I'll be glued to your posts with interest to watch how your plan is going.

i think lifting and adding some protein and making sure not to go low on cals should work, from what i have read. So go girl!


Joy joy, i did experience hair loss too, isnt it a fright! My skin was great though, I ate so much salad and drank so much spring water!
It is exciting, so true, all of us together must find answers.


Hang on Librarygirl, either there is a way to maintain once having lost or ... I dont know what. maybe its that slower losers will be better maintainers and you will not have to face what so many others have had to once goals are met.
Best of luck, dont give up.:hiya:

MillyBee 04-02-2014 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gotsomeold (Post 16860756)
I, on the other hand, watched my muscle definition improve without upping my exercise levels, my skin and hair improved significantly, and many physical-stress related issues like allergies and arthritis reduced/vanished during and weight loss and maintenance.

I worried about BMR, yes. Mostly because I had to work to eat enough on UDs (and 'enough' was defined as pretty close to or over BMR). And, for my metabolism, JUDDD worked/is working great.

My exercise levels are moderate to low. I suspect the question becomes much more complicated with high exercise rates ..... or maybe it depends on metabolism.

Wow, so happy to know it works easy for you.:)
You've got the JUDDD magic goin' on!

I have found the aches and pains I had are gone, and skin improved as well.
i am looking forward to the next few weeks learning and keeping with it.

We can be flexible with this woe, thats a very nice feature here and it encompasses so many different ways people do it that there is a lot of experience to be shared.

Sheilaq14 04-02-2014 04:12 PM

I have been eating at 500/2700 for two months now, which comes to 1600 if I ate every day. I chose this because my BMR is around 1590. I have lost 15lbs with very little exercise. I make sure to eat no less than 2200 on up days for a two-day aver of 1350 at the lowest. I am hoping to avoid the pitfalls of the 1200 this way. Also, in the Varady book she says the people generally ate at 100 to 110% of maintenance on up days (about 2100 for me). Obviously I have the occasional UUAD of about 3500 too. I will do this as long as it keeps working. I joined a gym and will start strength training soon, so we'll see what happens with that. I am 42 and haven't lifted heavy for prob 15 years, should be interesting.

Seabreezes 04-02-2014 05:50 PM

Subbing....very interesting as are all of our subjects!

calichris 04-02-2014 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedee (Post 16860586)
Chris how are you calculating your maintenance calories, TDEE? So very interested to see how this works out for you!

:hiya: Deedee! I'm being a bit cautious with my up days because I did not lose for those two months. I basically took an average of two TDEE formulas on sedentary setting, and then because my up days are weight lifting days, I'm adding back just the calories I burn doing that because I want those to be true maintenance days (and it isn't many calories anyway, about 100). Also trying really hard to focus on good nutrition more than I have in the past.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joyjoy (Post 16860607)
So I'm back to heavy weights, short, high intensity workouts, and way more food.
I do think that with all the experiments going on, we're bound to learn more about how best to do Juddd and how to troubleshoot stalls and other concerns.
This is exciting.:):heart:

I think it's exciting too! It is so fun to be part of these various experiments that will hopefully give us some interesting information that can maybe help other BUDDDs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Librarygirl (Post 16860639)
I eat more than my JUDDD calories most of the time, and have a very difficult time losing. I was going down lower than I had in a while, but had a MD (instead of a DD) and a double UD and I'm back to what I was before, about 6 lbs over my lowest--which was reached about 4 months ago never to be seen again. Might have been longer than that...seems like I'm constantly striving to lose, but end up maintaining more or less. :( The only thing I think might work for me to lose (well) would be to eat way less, or exercise way more. Both of which I have been resisting doing...

Cindy :hugs: The first thing I'm thinking is that the scale being up after an MD and a double up day is probably not all fat gain (if any) . Just like the 2.2 pounds I "lost" after my first DD back is not all fat either. However, as someone who also wanted to lose and hasn't for a long time, I know how frustrating this is. I wish it was easy to figure these things out. If dieting has slowed your metabolism (which happens to everyone to some extent), your TDEE might be lower now than the charts say it is. You could cut further, or you could try to do metabolism repair. Also, I'm really sold as you know on the idea of building lean body mass, which means that you're burning more calories all the time. Also it will do fabulous things for toning even before you get to goal. Of course, you might not want to listen to me unless my experiment works :D you could watch and see what happens with all the guinea pig experimenters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MillyBee (Post 16860802)
Calchris, i read about the protein and weight lifting too. I usually eat plenty of protein, but not 100 grams. If i start any serious lifting of water bottles i could increase it more and maybe see results. I'll be glued to your posts with interest to watch how your plan is going.

i think lifting and adding some protein and making sure not to go low on cals should work, from what i have read. So go girl!

Thanks! Here's hoping it works! I figured my protein based on .8 grams per pound of lean body mass as a minimum, but I'm trying to make 30% of my daily calories protein. Today on an up day that was 150 grams, and I made it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheilaq14 (Post 16860862)
I have been eating at 500/2700 for two months now, which comes to 1600 if I ate every day. I chose this because my BMR is around 1590. I have lost 15lbs with very little exercise.

This is so interesting, Sheila! You are doing great! That is about the rate at which I lost when I started, and I was 50 pounds heavier than your start and eating 2200/500. Wow. Please keep us posted on your progress. You've already been doing this experiment and it's been working for you!

SlowSure 04-03-2014 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheilaq14 (Post 16860862)
I have been eating at 500/2700 for two months now, which comes to 1600 if I ate every day. I chose this because my BMR is around 1590. I have lost 15lbs with very little exercise...I joined a gym and will start strength training soon, so we'll see what happens with that. I am 42 and haven't lifted heavy for prob 15 years, should be interesting.

A big, Well Done, to you for your progress to date and KUTGW. :shake:

As you've lifted heavy in the past, I'm going to be interested to see if your muscle memory kicks in to return your muscle quality and quantity.

CaliChris - am I mis-remembering that you have a 'proper' RMR assessment booked?

sazzie 04-03-2014 03:24 AM

Subscribing!

Librarygirl 04-03-2014 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calichris (Post 16861157)
Cindy :hugs: The first thing I'm thinking is that the scale being up after an MD and a double up day is probably not all fat gain (if any) . Just like the 2.2 pounds I "lost" after my first DD back is not all fat either. However, as someone who also wanted to lose and hasn't for a long time, I know how frustrating this is. I wish it was easy to figure these things out. If dieting has slowed your metabolism (which happens to everyone to some extent), your TDEE might be lower now than the charts say it is. You could cut further, or you could try to do metabolism repair. Also, I'm really sold as you know on the idea of building lean body mass, which means that you're burning more calories all the time. Also it will do fabulous things for toning even before you get to goal. Of course, you might not want to listen to me unless my experiment works :D you could watch and see what happens with all the guinea pig experimenters.

Thanks, Chris.:hugs:I guess my TDEE is lower now, but my appetite isn't. :D I know I haven't gained any "real" lbs over about 176, but I can't seem to get much lower. I know I need to work out, but I can't seem to get in the habit. I can do it now and then, but religiously or consistently, no...not yet anyway. I need to make a commitment and stick to it, and that's what I'm going to do. :)

calichris 04-03-2014 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowSure (Post 16861199)

CaliChris - am I mis-remembering that you ave a 'proper' RMR assessment booked?

I have it week after next. Very interested, but a bit nervous. (I hope it's not very low).

Cindy - I've noticed a common thread...once people get over the hard part of transitioning to an unfamiliar level of exercise, it seems like they don't want to give it up! You might become addicted too. :D

CarolinaCoast 04-04-2014 05:34 AM

Subscribing.

Green 04-06-2014 03:51 PM

I had my RMR tested last weekend and it's reported to be 1568, as I posted in the Once a weeek weighers thread. I was advised by the trainer who did it to eat under my RMR (1268-1568, depending on activity level) in order to lose fat. I asked about it being under my RMR and he said because my metabolism was slightly above average, I shouldn't be concerned.

After posting this in the other thread, many of my lovely JUDBUDS reached and advised to not eat below my RMR. So, going back into JUDDD, if ate at my 'no exercise' levels of 1750, 350, daily average is 1,050. No wonder I had such a tough time sticking to those numbers...

I was eating 1800-2000 on UD's and 600-700 on DD's and having losses, which averages out to 1200-1350/daily. My question now, like you MillyB, is do I try to make my average equal at least 1568? Hmmmm i suppose an experiment is in order.

Sirtain 04-07-2014 05:22 PM

I make sure not to get too low of an average by eating a TON on my Up Days!

It's a sacrifice, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

:lol:

GME 04-08-2014 10:34 AM

I watched part of Eat, Fast & Live Longer (the 5:2 documentary) last night and thought about this thread.

Michael Mosely interviewed and was comparing himself to a man that practices CRON (calorie restriction optimal nutrition). Mosely said he and the CRON fellow were both "in our fifties" and they weighed them both on screen. The CRON man weighed 135. He said he ate only 1900 calories per day. I was surprised to hear it was that much.

I went to the JUDDD calculator and put in male, 55 years old, 135 lbs and 5'10" (I guessed on the height). It came up with and UP day of 1750. This man actively and intentionally restricts calories, is very thin (but not unhealthy by his appearance) and eats 1900 per day.

Maybe the JUDDD calculator so many of us try to follow is too low and those levels cause people to stall and/or force them to continue eating less and less to keep losing.

deedee 04-08-2014 11:04 AM

Gina, that's so interesting. I remember seeing a CRON piece on 20/20 many years ago and the people they interviewed were eating under 1000 calories a day. I wonder if the man in the CRON Challenge is extremely athletic? It's funny because he only eats 400 calories less than Michael Mosley.

GME 04-08-2014 11:54 AM

Maybe so. It seemed awfully high when I heard him say it.

It is estimated that it takes about 500 calories for a person of his size to run at a pretty good speed for an hour. He would have to be running for two hours every day to get him below 1000. Some people do that I suppose. It would be over 10 miles.

sazzie 04-08-2014 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GME (Post 16868218)
I watched part of Eat, Fast & Live Longer (the 5:2 documentary) last night and thought about this thread.

Michael Mosely interviewed and was comparing himself to a man that practices CRON (calorie restriction optimal nutrition). Mosely said he and the CRON fellow were both "in our fifties" and they weighed them both on screen. The CRON man weighed 135. He said he ate only 1900 calories per day. I was surprised to hear it was that much.

I went to the JUDDD calculator and put in male, 55 years old, 135 lbs and 5'10" (I guessed on the height). It came up with and UP day of 1750. This man actively and intentionally restricts calories, is very thin (but not unhealthy by his appearance) and eats 1900 per day.

Maybe the JUDDD calculator so many of us try to follow is too low and those levels cause people to stall and/or force them to continue eating less and less to keep losing.

I am convinced of this! When I've been really strict with the JUDDD calories on UDs I would, for the most part, maintain or lose very very slowly. It was only when I increased them quite by accident that I started seeing drops on the scale.
I'm talking approximately 200 calories more.

Leo41 04-08-2014 01:08 PM

"the problem of the eventual difficulties involved in maintaining a low weight with a level of caloric intake below what is possible for to maintain a healthy body."


THIS statement has me really confused. As many of you know, when I did JUDDD, I followed the calculator solely for my DD calorie level, and adjusted my UDs to the caloric level I already knew I needed for loss--i.e., I only came to JUDDD because I needed to eat <1000 cal a day to lose, and ADF made that a lot easier. Since I lost just about a pound a week, it was obvious that my level wasn't too low.

Now maintenance for me is just about 1,100 cal daily (I give myself one 'free' day a week), and I usually cycle informally. I am 72 and hypothyroid which may explain the low calories. I don't use any calculations or worry about my 'BMR.' I weigh weekly, and if I'm not gaining or losing, I know that I'm eating to maintenance. My question is what criteria are used to determine whether or not I am maintaining 'a healthy body' with my limited calories.

I have blood tests at least every 4 months,and all my values are superb. At my age, the only Rx I take are my thyroid hormones (which are not considered 'meds'). By the standards of my doctors, I am maintaining a 'healthy body,' and several of them have complimented me on doing so.

No one should legislate 'numbers' for anyone else.

deedee 04-08-2014 01:43 PM

I still find this subject really confusing :dunno: All my life I've been hearing how we eat too much, our portions are so much larger than people 50 years ago. It seemed reasonable, but all the talk of BMR and TDEE and losing muscle mass really threw me for a loop.

Sirtain 04-08-2014 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedee (Post 16868522)
....All my life I've been hearing how we eat too much, our portions are so much larger than people 50 years ago....

For some reason, as I was eating this, a scene from Laura Ingalls Wilder's 'Farmer Boy' popped into my head. It was a description of one of their standard, 'prosperous farmers' dinners.

It is too good not to appreciate in its entirety, so here, for your gustatory pleasure:

"Almanzo ate the sweet, mellow baked beans. He ate the bit of salt pork that melted like cream in his mouth. He ate mealy boiled potatoes, with brown ham-gray. He ate the ham. He bit deep into velvety bread spread with sleek butter, and he ate the crisp golden crust. He demolished a tall heap of pale mashed turnips, and a hill of stewed yellow pumpkin. Then he sighed, and tucked his napkin deeper into the neckband of his red waist[coat]. And he ate plum preserves and strawberry jam, and grape jelly, and spiced watermelon-rind pickles. He felt very comfortable inside. Slowly he ate a large piece of pumpkin pie."

-Farmer Boy, by Laura Ingalls Wilder


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