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Old 04-08-2014, 06:41 PM   #31
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I think this totally comes down to the fact that we are all different, but I've never been one who believes in "starvation mode" unless you live in a 3rd world country and are litterally starving, and by the way, those people are very skinny. Most of us who worry about starvation mode are no where near starving. I think at different stages of our lives we have different needs for nutrients and calories, but basically a deficit is needed to lose weight. I'm also one who believes most of us who work desk jobs will never be able to out exercise our mouths. We are humans. Our bodies are meant to work hard. Back in times where we we farmers or hunters we worked from sunrise to sunset and food may not always have been plentiful. No one worried about there metabolism slowing down. These are not thoughts that our ancestors had and in fact not thoughts that many around the world have. Essentially we ate more than our body needed, thus being overweight and in order to lose weight we have to eat at a deficit. Maintence is a bit more of a balancing act than losing weight, but essentially we can not return to eating what we once did or we will return to the weight we once were.

Just my 2 cents. (I'm done )
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Last edited by Carly; 04-08-2014 at 06:43 PM..
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Old 04-08-2014, 09:09 PM   #32
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You definitely must burn more calories than you take in to lose weight, but there's deficit and DEFICIT.

A few months ago, I commented on my co-worker's very healthy looking lunch. She was complaining that she had been cutting and carefully tracking calories and exercising and she had not lost a pound in 3 months. I told her about JUDDD at the time, but she didn't like the sound of the DDs.

Just today, I stopped by her desk when she was eating another healthy lunch, and I asked how things were going ... and she said she was now eating more and losing weight! That she had been eating 1200 calories and now she was eating 1700-1900 and had lost 5 pounds since then and an inch off her waist and each thigh.

There are so many stories like this, and I have one of my own from last spring, when I raised calories and started losing. I hope to do the same again. It doesn't make mathematical sense -- and I think my friend at work or I could have cut calories further to keep losing -- but there can be a cost to that. Maybe lean body mass, maybe metabolic adaptation/adaptive thermogenesis, maybe just unsustainability. If my co-worker is losing on 1700-1900, I'm so glad she didn't cut back to 800 or 1000!

Tom Venuto in Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle has this scale in his book:
Conservative deficit: 15-20% below maintenance
Moderate deficit: 21-25% below maintenance
Aggressive deficit: 26-30% below maintenance
Extremely aggressive deficit: 31-40% below maintenance
Semistarvation: 50% below maintenance.

He says that people who have a higher body fat percentage can tolerate a higher deficit, but as you lose body fat you will also start to lose lean body mass with aggressive deficits. He recommends no more than a 30% cut. He also says:
Quote:
A larger calorie deficit results in faster weight loss. But a deficit that's too large or too prolonged will eventually slow your metabolism, increase hunger, decrease energy, reduce essential nutrient intake, and cause a loss of lean body mass. That leaves you with a dilemma: how low should you go to get maximum fat loss with minimum side effects? There's a threshold where cutting calories triggers metabolic, health, or compliance problems at an accelerated rate . . . it's always ideal to customize . . . use a maximum deficit of 30% below maintenance. There are some situations where a larger deficit makes sense, but it may be riskier.
So, I think anyone who is healthy and happy doing what they are doing may not need to think about any of this. Those who are stalled, struggling, wanting to maximize chances of preserving as much LBM as possible, or just feeling like their diet is unsustainable, see if there's anything you can take from this to help you. I am convinced, though, that going lower is not always the best answer.

Last edited by calichris; 04-08-2014 at 09:14 PM..
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Old 04-09-2014, 05:36 AM   #33
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I wonder if it's confusing because a number of us are commenting in different threads with several caveats/relevant biographical details but not everybody sees that material and we can't repeat it every time.

A number of us have stated that people have achieved their goal weight by following classic JUDDD. What some of us are doing in maintenance is not necessarily relevant to people who are in weight loss mode. It might be to people who've experienced a lengthy plateau or have had a body composition or similar assessment that has prompted a rethink of their goals.

As for the number of kcals - I've nothing to add to CaliChris' comment above.

Leo41 has an interesting endocrine history. I'm going to mention that at 1100kcals per day, she's averaging 250kcals more per day than I was when I reached goal, following JUDDD at 45% sedentary altho' I'm 20yrs or so younger, possibly taller, and have an active lifestyle. This disparity in maintenance levels of food intake might reflect my degree of sarcopenia - that's an unknown at this point. But, it is why I decided that I needed to increase my kcal intake and care for my muscle mass. However, I have a clinical diagnosis of sarcopenia - that's why I do this.

As Carly remarked, we need different strategies at different times in our life cycles and we have different priorities and concerns.
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Old 04-09-2014, 06:17 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
You definitely must burn more calories than you take in to lose weight, but there's deficit and DEFICIT.

A few months ago, I commented on my co-worker's very healthy looking lunch. She was complaining that she had been cutting and carefully tracking calories and exercising and she had not lost a pound in 3 months. I told her about JUDDD at the time, but she didn't like the sound of the DDs.

Just today, I stopped by her desk when she was eating another healthy lunch, and I asked how things were going ... and she said she was now eating more and losing weight! That she had been eating 1200 calories and now she was eating 1700-1900 and had lost 5 pounds since then and an inch off her waist and each thigh.

There are so many stories like this, and I have one of my own from last spring, when I raised calories and started losing. I hope to do the same again. It doesn't make mathematical sense -- and I think my friend at work or I could have cut calories further to keep losing -- but there can be a cost to that. Maybe lean body mass, maybe metabolic adaptation/adaptive thermogenesis, maybe just unsustainability. If my co-worker is losing on 1700-1900, I'm so glad she didn't cut back to 800 or 1000!

Tom Venuto in Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle has this scale in his book:
Conservative deficit: 15-20% below maintenance
Moderate deficit: 21-25% below maintenance
Aggressive deficit: 26-30% below maintenance
Extremely aggressive deficit: 31-40% below maintenance
Semistarvation: 50% below maintenance.

He says that people who have a higher body fat percentage can tolerate a higher deficit, but as you lose body fat you will also start to lose lean body mass with aggressive deficits. He recommends no more than a 30% cut. He also says:


So, I think anyone who is healthy and happy doing what they are doing may not need to think about any of this. Those who are stalled, struggling, wanting to maximize chances of preserving as much LBM as possible, or just feeling like their diet is unsustainable, see if there's anything you can take from this to help you. I am convinced, though, that going lower is not always the best answer.
I appreciate this entire discussion. Thanks.
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Old 04-09-2014, 06:51 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by GME View Post
I watched part of Eat, Fast & Live Longer (the 5:2 documentary) last night and thought about this thread.

Michael Mosely interviewed and was comparing himself to a man that practices CRON (calorie restriction optimal nutrition). Mosely said he and the CRON fellow were both "in our fifties" and they weighed them both on screen. The CRON man weighed 135. He said he ate only 1900 calories per day. I was surprised to hear it was that much.

I went to the JUDDD calculator and put in male, 55 years old, 135 lbs and 5'10" (I guessed on the height). It came up with and UP day of 1750. This man actively and intentionally restricts calories, is very thin (but not unhealthy by his appearance) and eats 1900 per day.

Maybe the JUDDD calculator so many of us try to follow is too low and those levels cause people to stall and/or force them to continue eating less and less to keep losing.
First of all, at 5'10 135 lbs, that seems extremely thin for a man, and even for a woman. Secondly, 1900 doesn't seem like much, if even enough. Clearly, he is not eating enough because 135 lbs is probably wayyy underweight.
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Old 04-09-2014, 08:29 AM   #36
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Not relevant to a number of people: just an interesting observation for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
First of all, at 5'10 135 lbs, that seems extremely thin for a man, and even for a woman. Secondly, 1900 doesn't seem like much, if even enough. Clearly, he is not eating enough because 135 lbs is probably wayyy underweight.
OK, I found an upload on Vimeo and watched that segment. Something is off with the figures or I wish they'd spoken about how they'd verified them. ([Snark]If a couple of comparably-aged women had made those kcal statements, people wouldn't think twice about adding 1/3-1/2 more to those estimates.[/Snark])

The CRON man in a way was eating more than I expected as he reported 1900kcal per day and Moseley 2300kcals per day which is 'only' a 400kcal difference and surprising in light of their body composition evaluations. CRON chap was 11.5% body fat which at 134lbs means he has approx. 15lbs of body fat and 119lbs of lean body mass. Mosley weighed in at 180lbs (possibly more, they didn't report that accurately) and was 27.5% body fat which translates to approx. 50lbs of body fat and 130lbs LBM.

It would have been very useful if they'd reported skeletal muscle mass in addition to the other findings (it might also have contributed to an understanding of the difference between their one-legged balance test times). They had a bunch of detail that they didn't report as some of the figures that were being quoted during the feedback session (e.g., the abdominal fat %) must have been derived from different scan/evaluation technology than the Bod Pod.

I'm heartsick of only part of the story being told. I fully accept that (a little like in this and other threads) some people would find it confusing but I don't know how we'll ever understand what's relevant and what isn't unless some of these discussions are held in public and various media take that risk. But, yes - I'm possibly wrong and so many people would find the whole area so difficult that they'd be trapped in a quicksand of not knowing what to do for the best. And, people want certainties, not, "We don't know".
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Old 04-09-2014, 08:37 AM   #37
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I also wondered how Michael Mosely knew how many calories he normally eats. I would expect someone that practices CRON would know how much he was eating with accuracy, but it didn't sound like Michael Mosely paid attention before. I wonder if there was some baseline "tracking" that may or may not have been accurate. I might be tempted to under-report my consumption if it was going to be broadcast on television.
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Old 04-09-2014, 08:43 AM   #38
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Okay, maybe I should have done some research before replying. I see that CRON is a calorie-restricted diet specifically to reduce aging and improve health. In that case, I guess 1900 would be a little high maybe, even for a man at 135 lbs...regardless, I'm not qualified to be making sweeping statements, so disregard any earlier comments lol.
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Old 04-17-2014, 10:19 AM   #39
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So, more on CRON.

I read a section of Refuse to Regain this morning. She was talking about the benefits of calorie restriction in humans found in people that follow CRON. She described it as eating fewer than 1800 calories on average. Now that means some followers eat more and some eat less, but 1800 seems like a pretty high average for people that are looking for health benefits by "severely" restricting calories.

So let's say this higher-than-we-expected calorie level is correct, what does it mean? How are these people achieving very low body fat percentages on calorie levels that fail to induce losses in many of us? Is it the careful attention to nutrition? Is it the fact that they don't have "broken" metabolisms from years of previous dieting, or were our metabolisms broken before we started dieting (and that's why we had to start).

If one person is a normal weight and "cuts" calories to 1800 to practice CRON, they can achieve very low body fat. If another person is already overweight (especially if she is a female) she will be advised to eat 1200 calories and we all know how that usually works out.

What is the difference? Is the motivation that drives a normal weight person to get unusually low somehow stronger than a person that wants to lose to a normal weight? Is it a difference in metabolisms from an early age? Is it the first diet a person goes on that damages them from then on (anecdotally, people are not very overweight when they go on their first diet)? Would a diet be OK if it wasn't too low in calories?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but I think they are worth thinking about. We all want to lose weight yesterday (well, I would like to anyway), but I don't think any of us want to do it again.
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Old 04-17-2014, 10:33 AM   #40
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I was looking at the CR forum, and it seems quite a few people there aim for 800-1000 calories a day. I'm not sure if that's the norm, and I've seen the 1800 number in a few places, but I think it's an individual thing in the CRON community, just as it is for those of us doing JUDDD.

If someone is normally eating 2800 calories and maintaining on that, it would make sense that cutting 1000 calories a day would help them lose weight and provide health benefits. But it does seem like there are very many people who were eating closer to 2000 who cut their calories to 1000 and under.

I don't know the answers to your questions either, since all my life I've been either on a diet, or cheating on a diet. It would make sense to me if the people who are healthy and thin eating 1800 calories on CRON were never truly overweight or didn't struggle with their weight as much as those of us who end up having to restrict further, but I have no idea. The studies on the CR website are interesting though, and on the forum there is a lot of discussion of ADF versus daily restriction.
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Old 04-27-2014, 02:58 PM   #41
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I've read this thread 3-4 times. Okay, 5-6 because some of the info flies right over my head. Bear with me here, because I can get breathy.

I got frustrated, once again, with not being able to lose on JUDDD, so I switched over to NK eating. It's only been a week, I know. All I did every day was go up .5, then down .5. Over and over. But when I upped my calories to closer to my BMR number towards the end of the week, I lost a whole pound lol. I remembered this thread and began going over it. So, I began thinking (dangerous territory, I know).

I loathe experimenting because I'm ready to see these pounds go away. But, two things stick out with my JUDDD experiences. I prefer a 4:3, so Saturday was typically my official weigh in day. I noticed that if I had a higher DD on Friday, or even close to a MD, I would lose better than if I had a stricter DD before weighing on Saturday. And, I found I had to make sure I ate my UD calories to begin losing.

My BMR is currently 1683. My JUDDD numbers are 2026/405, giving me a 1215 calorie/day (rounding up). I'm beginning to think I need to do what someone else (Sheila, I think) does and get my numbers higher. So, to get around 1700 calories a day, I get 2900/500. I've always done better with 500 DD anyway, as keeping them low or even doing a fast never made any difference.

Now, this makes no sense to me because I'm in my 50's, post-menopausal, and am sailing with nothing but one ovary. But I've been steadily gaining since trying to eat low carb (20/day) while trying to keep my calories around 1500-1550 a day (keto calculator). And when I had started JUDDD (please, don't ask which time ), I was sticking with my numbers, but still gaining.

So, experiment loathing thing that I am, I'm going to try this and use GME's weigh daily but average them once a week, too. I'm going to do 4:3 because that worked best for me back in the day.

I hope this is the key for me. I'm really tired of keeping my carbs and calories low, yet continuing to gain. Unless I need to continue eating 20 carbs a day and just eat 1700 calories a day. I need to quit thinking ...
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Old 04-27-2014, 03:35 PM   #42
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Hope this is a winner for you Nilla, whatever works hey?
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Old 04-27-2014, 04:33 PM   #43
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I hope this works for you.
If you had trouble eating your JUDDD UD number will you be able to eat that higher amount?
I don't know your stats, but 2900/500 doesn't sound conducive to weight loss, but I really hope it works Nilla.

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Old 04-27-2014, 08:04 PM   #44
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Nilla, hope you find the key that works! I know from experience how frustrating it is to be trying and feel like it's just not working.

Here's what I wonder about when we are talking about BMR and JUDDD. The people who suggest not going under BMR are trying to help you lose fat but save as much muscle as possible, which is a good goal, right? But they are thinking about it on a daily basis. So, let's say a person's BMR is 1500, and with normal daily activities and exercise, the person burns 2000 calories a day. That person would cut a conservative amount daily, such as 15-20%, and have 1600-1700 calories a day to lose weight but stay above BMR. With JUDDD, you have maintenance calories one day (2000 for this example person) and a down day the next. If you try to combine the two methods, I don't know what happens if you add the calories mostly to the up day and eat well above what you are burning. Can we average it out like that, or does your body store it as fat the same day if you consume more than what your body burned that day? The next day, on DD, you'd burn fat, but I don't know if this is the best way to do it, or if it might be better to increase your DD instead. So, the person could eat 2000/1000, which would average BMR 1500.

This is all highly experimental territory! Please keep us posted with whatever you decide and how it is working for you!
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Old 04-27-2014, 08:09 PM   #45
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I read some more of Refuse to Regain and the author talks about how she doesn't believe people that say the have a "slow metabolism" they are really just eating too much and not being realistic with themselves. Later she suggests maintainers get their BMR tested so they see what their intake should be- but not too soon after going into maintenance because their metabolism will still be suppressed from the dieting.

So which is it? She is a diet doctor. I hardly think a person setting out on their first attempt to lose weight will bother consulting a specialist first, they will just diet in whatever way they know how. Only when it doesn't work do you seek out a specialist. By that time it is likely her patients' metabolisms are suppressed if they have already been dieting.

She didn't say how suppressed she believed a dieter's metabolism could be or how long it would take to recover.
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Old 04-28-2014, 11:03 AM   #46
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Nilla, I feel for you, I really do! Dieting and restricting, and still gaining is panic inducing!

Christina's thoughts are what I am basically trying to do. Get my metabolism up again from the long term restriction, while burning fat and retaining (hopefully building) muscle tissue. I am all about not having to live on a tiny amount of calories for the rest of my life! I hope this works for us both! It may not be fast for weight loss, but hopefully we'll get our metabolisms moving again and be burning away mostly fat.
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Old 04-29-2014, 04:48 PM   #47
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Hi ladies. It's ALL confusing to me!! lol All the protein body mass lean, etc. is so much for me to absorb. Wondering if I have a broken metabolism or not is confusing because of the info about eating to BMR, over BMR, under BMR, and on and on.

Carol, I know what you mean. The thought that I'm eating too much even at an average of 1200 on JUDDD and fearing it'll have to be less and less doesn't thrill me. That's what's keeping me from attempting WW again.

Dieting is on my mind 24/7. Should I do this, should I do that. Ugh! And yes, Carly, I totally agree with you! Both on me having a hard time eating up to my UD calories AND those high numbers (even low when averaged out) seems like a ton of food. But get this. Yesterday's DD was good. Came in at about 524. Today's been a nice UD, but I just now hit a little over 1150 calories and it's almost dinner time! If I didn't track this stuff and didn't know better, I'd have sworn I was just about at my 2000/day UD calorie limit. I'm making that hamburger/sausage/cream cheese concoction and going to not skimp on the serving! But, I doubt I'll hit that 2900 mark. I don't know how Sheila does it!

Guess I'll go have a peanut butter and cream mixture appetizer.

Thanks for the support, it means a lot to me.
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:01 PM   #48
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I am still losing on 500/2200-2700, but I think I have to change my schedule to 4:3 now that I am lifting weights. The way I figure it is 2000 is maintenance for me (BMR 1500), so a reasonable daily deficit number would be 500 for a pound a week. That means to get to 1500 I have to eat 500/2500 with EOD rotations.

I am now going to try MWF at 2200-2600 when I am working out, TuTh and either Sa or Su at 600. The remaining Sa or Su will be 1600-2000 depending how life goes. That way I can accommodate a social event on either w/e day. That works out to a weekly deficit of 4,000 at the low end of consumption and 2,400 at the high end. I think 600 for fast days will be a bit easier than 500, and I will only have to fast three times/week instead of 3.5. Hoping this will keep me losing while making the plan easier on my schedule.

If anyone has experience with a similar structure would love to hear thoughts. I am really trying to lose SLOW but steady after losing and regaining a bunch last year on a 1200 cal plan which made me feel weak and crabby and was not sustainable.

And yes, Nilla I can get up to 2900 or higher really easily if I don't track and watch carefully. I am a late night Smartfood addict and will plow through whatever I am allowed that day! The fast days do help with this though, learning not to snack at all every other day has shown me I can do without.
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:08 PM   #49
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Sheila, I loved 4:3 for sticking to a weight lifting schedule and giving flexible weekends. Please let us know what you think about your new plan!
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:15 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by calichris View Post
Sheila, I loved 4:3 for sticking to a weight lifting schedule and giving flexible weekends. Please let us know what you think about your new plan!
Thanks for the support! I find I am scared about the changes, I hope 600 cal fast days won't blow the whole plan out the window! But I am trying to take the long view and stop fighting my schedule. I have a 3yo so my schedule is really determined by his preschool and every week being different was just too crazy.
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Old 04-30-2014, 04:39 PM   #51
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Sounds like you've got a good plan, Sheila. Smartfood, huh? Hmmm ...

I didn't add up the rest of my calories for the day, just piled on the meat mixture for dinner. But, if I made it to 2500 I'd be surprised! I felt so stuffed that I know I just don't want to feel that way. The irony of being so overweight for so long, thinking I'm eating enough when it doesn't look like I am, is mind boggling to me!

I was already ready to bail and go to WW or something last night when I saw even being able to eat my heart out wasn't going to happen!! I will go back to doing 4:3, stick to the calculator calories, and see what happens. I'll be slinking back into lurkdom because I get sick of my endless rantings and diet hopping, so I can only imagine what others think!!

Hope you plan works well for you!
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:12 PM   #52
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Nilla, have you seen your MD and had all your blood work done recently?
If you are eating so very little and sticking to the plan maybe something is going awry with your thyroid or something else.

If you've been to the MD and everything is fine ignore above.

Have you done EOD rotations, by the book for a solid 4 weeks?

If not that would be my heartfelt suggestion. What do you have to lose?
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