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Old 03-24-2014, 07:36 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Planelman View Post
I honestly think that EOD rotations and the calories the JUDDD calculator give are just not enough in the long run for what we all really want in the end, to lose fat and end up in shape and eating a normal amount of calories to maintain. In the course of a week JUDDD is really simply a calorie restricted diet. We mix that with exercise and no wonder we run into issues with stalls or over eating on UD's or UUAD's.

I think we all agree that there is benefits to fasting but the implementation of the fasting and the timing of it seems too aggressive and more focused on weight loss than overall health. 5:2 seems much more reasonable or even daily IF where you still eat your normal calories each day in a window, 16/8 or fast 5 or which ever, mixed with reasonable calorie cycling (and carbs if you are ok with carbs). You still get the benefits of periodic fasting without severe calorie restriction and you eat normally, and if you are full stop eating, you don't have to force yourself to eat up to your calories for the day so it might more naturally create a deficit. And once you reach goal you should be much more metabolically flexible and be able to handle a normal calorie level to maintain.

Not trying to bash JUDDD, I just think we all need to eat more.
Can you expand on this? How would you calculate calories if not by the JUDDD calculator? I really think my metabolism is a mess. What is EOD?
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Old 03-24-2014, 08:15 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeirasMom View Post
Such interesting things to think about in this thread. I'm finding myself more and more resentful of having to think about food all the time, what and when I can eat. I am contemplating trying out an eating window, but a larger one. Maybe a 10 hour eating window to start. I keep mixing things up, and that's leading me to believe I'm just not happy with whatever I've been doing. I keep coming back to EOD or 5:2, because I know it works, but I'm really just wanting to eat.
I love how honest you are, Dawn! It makes you relatable even though you have had success of mythical proportions. Try the eating window! Doing the same thing can get a little stale, too, after awhile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patkid View Post
To be 100% honest you guys are scaring me.
sigh
Oh, Pat, please don't be scared! I love JUDDD and nothing helped me lose as much for as long. I am just hitting a personal wall, but I would go back and do it the exact same way again. I wouldn't have been even talking or thinking about this unless I was a little stuck ... just trying to find my way forward. You are doing great! Take what helps you and leave the rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilahstrait View Post
I have never experienced a plateau while dieting. When I did Atkins losing 50 plus I lost weekly. I have never stayed on a weight loss plan straight for 2 weeks without a cheat day. When I would get back on plan my weight would continue dropping. I experienced this on Juddd as well. I always hated that I couldn't stick to a plan for a month straight but maybe it helped in a way.
Wow, that is interesting! I am planning on incorporating a planned higher calorie day, so I am glad to hear that doing that unintentionally may have kept you out of stall-ville (not a nice place to visit )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yam-Yam View Post

In a way, it's good that I'm not there yet (plateau or needing to tweak anything).

I so love the freedom I'm feeling right now and the simplicity of JUDDD.
Yes! That is a good thing! Also, I think you're doing JUDDD in a fairly gentle, relaxed, yet effective way for you. And you're feeling great and doing great, so no need to change a thing at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
I'm bringing up the 2 wks on 2 wks off that Slow mentioned, without quoting, as it seems a bit long...I wonder how that would work? If I did two weeks on religiously and then 2 wks off, wouldn't it just be maintenance? I think I'd gain back at least half if not all of what I'd lost the previous two weeks.?
I think someone trying this would have to be careful that the two weeks off are maintenance calories only, but if a person lost 2-4 pounds in two weeks, then maintained that loss for two weeks, then repeat the next month.... they'd move forward, and especially if it helped the body give up the pounds more easily in the loss phase, and was easier to follow and prevents stalls, a person could actually come out ahead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by faithgirl View Post
Can you expand on this? How would you calculate calories if not by the JUDDD calculator? I really think my metabolism is a mess. What is EOD?
Faithgirl - I hope the two week cycle works for you! It sounds like it could work with your natural rhythm. I'll leave Mike for the main question, but EOD stands for "every other day."

Last edited by calichris; 03-24-2014 at 08:18 PM..
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Old 03-25-2014, 02:09 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
I'm bringing up the 2 wks on 2 wks off that Slow mentioned, without quoting, as it seems a bit long...I wonder how that would work? If I did two weeks on religiously and then 2 wks off, wouldn't it just be maintenance? I think I'd gain back at least half if not all...
If you gained then it seems that you'd be eating above maintenance rather than at maintenance levels. I think some people will have a couple of fluctuations based on TMI gut/elimination issues if this is something that happens during normal ADF but that will level out over the 2 weeks.

Say someone was following ADF at 20% WLM for 2 weeks, for the next 2 weeks they might increase their intake to JUDDD maintenance levels on both UDs and DDs. Or some people might prefer to retain a lower DD and enjoy more food on UDs - eaten from sources that will not derail them or mess with their metabolism.

For this 2nd pattern, if people are thinking of following a low-carb WOE with carb re-feeds like Mike and Christina, then it looks like the carbs need to be selected carefully as dumping quickly metabolised sugars into the system seems to be undesirable after a certain age, if someone is a Berkeley POW, or has a history of obesity with some family tendency towards metabolic derangement.

Overall, I feel people have to be able to live with what they choose, and this might vary at different stages in the weight loss activity. There are many permutations that people can tailor to suit themselves although I realise that this level of choice seems overwhelming.

Nothing, however, has the power to trump appropriate food choices that support and nurture you - everything else is just a schedule. Part of the beauty of JUDDD is its simplicity and it's important to retain that by picking the simplest schedule that works for you.
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Old 03-25-2014, 02:42 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by kwerp View Post
SS - I saw that article yesterday as well. I'm rather dubious how it works for people with eating issues (COE for one), and I consider myself a good example of how far off the wagon you can fall in 2 weeks: I've easily gained 10 lbs in that time frame.
To be fair, the researchers were not running a study of people with eating disorders - I don't think there is agreement as to how to progress when that is a complicating factor and in the absence of someone receiving appropriate professional guidance on managing it.

Dr Johnson does issue a cautionary note that he wouldn't encourage people with a history of ED to embark upon a restrictive WOE such as JUDDD in case it nudges them towards unhelpful eating patterns.
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Old 03-25-2014, 03:15 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faithgirl View Post
Sorry this is so long! Last year I managed to lose 31 pounds, by trying different things. The funny thing was, I could only manage to lose weight 10-14 days out of the month. Then I would stall, get frustrated, eat whatever I wanted and regain. I'd start over after a couple of weeks and drop to a new low before stalling out again. I'm hoping that by controlling how many calories I eat during the 'up' weeks, that the gain will be insignificant and I will drop lower faster during the weeks I do Simply filling. Because last year, those couple of weeks or so out of the month-my calories were not insignificant, I'm sure.
During WLM I had the same pattern and it 100% coincided with TOM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by faithgirl View Post
Can you expand on this? How would you calculate calories if not by the JUDDD calculator? I really think my metabolism is a mess. What is EOD?
Every Other Day. On JUDDD we fast EOD by sticking to our DD numbers from the JUDDD calculator one day and the next day eating our UD calories.
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Old 03-25-2014, 04:42 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSure View Post
If you gained then it seems that you'd be eating above maintenance rather than at maintenance levels. I think some people will have a couple of fluctuations based on TMI gut/elimination issues if this is something that happens during normal ADF but that will level out over the 2 weeks.

Say someone was following ADF at 20% WLM for 2 weeks, for the next 2 weeks they might increase their intake to JUDDD maintenance levels on both UDs and DDs. Or some people might prefer to retain a lower DD and enjoy more food on UDs - eaten from sources that will not derail them or mess with their metabolism.

For this 2nd pattern, if people are thinking of following a low-carb WOE with carb re-feeds like Mike and Christina, then it looks like the carbs need to be selected carefully as dumping quickly metabolised sugars into the system seems to be undesirable after a certain age, if someone is a Berkeley POW, or has a history of obesity with some family tendency towards metabolic derangement.

Overall, I feel people have to be able to live with what they choose, and this might vary at different stages in the weight loss activity. There are many permutations that people can tailor to suit themselves although I realise that this level of choice seems overwhelming.

Nothing, however, has the power to trump appropriate food choices that support and nurture you - everything else is just a schedule. Part of the beauty of JUDDD is its simplicity and it's important to retain that by picking the simplest schedule that works for you.
I guess I was thinking of maintenance for those two weeks without JUDDDing. That is, at 176 for example, 1700 calories every day. It should work, but I would still have to "diet" to maintain it, with lower calories eod. Or at least 2 fasting days. However, if I could go lower than the JUDDD calculator for me, plus lower than a 500 DD, I could probably lose better--then maybe do as I'm doing now for two weeks and maintain. Going lower is very difficult for me...hence the holding pattern.
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Old 03-25-2014, 05:55 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faithgirl View Post
Can you expand on this? How would you calculate calories if not by the JUDDD calculator? I really think my metabolism is a mess. What is EOD?
Not sure I can link to any specific calculator, but if you google TDEE Calculator, it will come back with a bunch of results. The first one I get is the If It Fits Your Macros one, and it has a specific TDEE and IIFYM calculator that gives you your base calories you need to function while lying in bed, then factors in your activity level and exercise and can go further to factor in calorie deficit, protein and lay out your macro ratios based on your way of eating (low carb/ketogenic/balanced etc.).

Basically it will give you a starting point for calories to meet your goal, maintain/gain/lose weight. Just like the JUDDD calculator one number is not correct for everyone at the same stats, everyone is different and has unique metabolic differences that change those numbers, so you need to see how you do on a specific calorie level and see if it is working for you and make adjustments if it is not.
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Old 03-25-2014, 06:18 AM   #68
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If I were to lay out a 4 week plan and wanted to incorporate JUDDD and exercise into it I would probably do the following. Using the JUDDD calculator, and since I exercise 4 times a week, I would do 2 weeks of active weight loss, with exercise factored in at 20% weight loss mode and make sure I work out 4 days each week at a fairly high intensity weight lifting on my UD's. Then I would do 1 week with the same exercise but at 60% maintenance mode. Then I would do 1 week at 60% with just slow 3-4mph walking instead of heavy lifting, or do very light weights instead and treat it as a de-load week. Then start the cycle over.
  • 2 Weeks (20%, 3-5 days exercise)
  • 1 week (60%, 3-5 days exercise)
  • 1 week (60%, light exercise, de-load week)

Both UD's and DD's would have to be controlled and for me stick to low carb because my body likes that. During the 4 weeks I would plan 2 "cheat" meals to occur at the end of each 2 week period. Cheat meals of course should not be so over the top that they derail the last 2 weeks or the next, just get in a treat that you can handle metabolically that will bump up your calories to a slightly elevated level. Evaluate after at least 2 4 week cycles to see how you are doing.

Last edited by Planelman; 03-25-2014 at 06:24 AM..
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Old 03-25-2014, 07:00 PM   #69
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Thanks Calichris, Carly and Mike. I'm going to look up some calculators just to compare.

I had my weigh in tonight and was down 2.2. This was from 5 days counting points-which is way more food than what I was eating on SF. (WW has two plans-points plus and Simply Filling). The weight loss is a shock since I had gained 0.8 last week on SF and the week before that I had lost just 0.2 and was eating way less food. I am going to do another week of counting points, including eating my weekly points and exercise points. I think. If my weight suddenly shoots up more than a pound of two, I may rethink the exercise points. I'm really glad I found this thread! I hope this is the answer I have been looking for.
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:04 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
Sharing some reading!

According to this research here (and other studies), after being in a caloric deficit for awhile, your body burns fewer calories than would be predicted from just the fact that you are now carrying around less weight.

The really unfair part of this is, all other things being equal, someone who diets down to 130 (for example) has to eat fewer calories to maintain at 130 than someone who was always at 130. (however ... I think you could still try to add muscle and/or reverse diet to increase your metabolic rate once you get there).

According to another article called "HOW TO MAINTAIN WEIGHT LOSS & BEAT WEIGHT LOSS RESISTANCE" (I probably can't link to this one), there's a little more bad news (but followed by better news, I promise ):


OK, so according to this guy, who is a clinician who deals with weight loss and obesity, here's what you can do about it! I don't know if he has all the answers or not, but here's what he suggests:
  • Maintain/increase lean body mass
  • Eat protein (this article recommended 40% of total calories)
  • Eating a lower glycemic diet
  • Cycle the diet with intermittent calorie and carb restriction (see study - some participants ate approx 600 cals 2x week ... good news for JUDDD)
  • If you think you are weight loss resistant, do not eat less, exercise more (too stressful on the body). Instead,
    "alternate an eat less, exercise less approach with an eat more, exercise more approach. Spend time in an eat less and exercise less (4 to 10 days) cycle, and then spend time eating more and exercising more (4 to 10 days). This back and forth approach pretty much stops metabolic compensation in its tracks."
  • Krill oil at 1-3g per day, or regular fish oil at 6g-12g per day for leptin sensitivity.
  • A short period of overeating of between 1 and 3 days. This technique raises leptin levels and has also been shown to substantially raise a depressed metabolic rate.

That last one sounds fun ... and is at least a plus side of a UUAD.
A) I you for researching this
B) with some upcoming events, this might just work for me.

I need to read the whole thread, but i really appreciate your work on this!
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:28 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Planelman View Post
  • 2 Weeks (20%, 3-5 days exercise)
  • 1 week (60%, 3-5 days exercise)
  • 1 week (60%, light exercise, de-load week)
I'm still toying with how I'm going to design my summer plan based on this and incorporating my need to run. I was thinking of going in 4 day cycles - focusing on running while adding in higher carbs (but good carbs) and then 4 days of more protein and focusing on lifting.

Or maybe I just need to take the summer off again like I did last summer. Last summer I ran less than I will this summer, didn't strength train at all and still managed to lose 10# in 5 months. Super slow compared to early days on JUDDD but maybe thats what I need to do. In theory, if I feed my muscles with lots of protein and BCAAs, it should redirect my body to burn fat for fuel on my calorie deficit days.

If I wasn't training, I would totally get on board with Mike's plan posted above because I think it makes tons of sense. But I won't give up my runs. Not even for weight loss.
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Old 03-25-2014, 10:32 PM   #72
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Mike, I actually printed out your proposed plan so I can think it through and decide what I want to do going forward. I think this plan makes a lot of sense.

Christina, you always find such interesting blogs and articles. I've bookmarked the Eat More 2 Weigh Less site - it looks fantastic! I really want to start lifting heavy and I just need to spend the time learning how I can go about it. Good reference!
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:21 AM   #73
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re-read and found my answer!

Last edited by Green; 03-27-2014 at 08:23 AM..
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