Low Carb Friends  
Netrition.com - Tools - Reviews - Faces - Recipes - Home


Go Back   Low Carb Friends > Eating and Exercise Plans > Weight Loss Plans > JUDDD
Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-15-2014, 11:58 AM   #1
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
calichris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,949
Gallery: calichris
Stats: 273.7/204.8/147 or size 8/10
WOE: IF/IE
Start Date: 5/26/12; JUDDD 7/11/12
Body Fat Test 2: Help!

I went for my second body fat test today -- sooner than I planned, but I felt like I really wanted to have the information about what is happening with my body and my enemy, the scale.

So, I went into it thinking that there was not going to be a lot of change based on the scale, and that information is good even if it's bad news. It's not all bad news, but some is, and it was upsetting.

Change in weight:
1/11/14 201.8
3/15/14 203.8

Change in body fat percentage:
1/11 37.3
3/15 37.1

Change in lean body mass:
1/11 126.6 lbs
3/15 128.2 lbs

Change in body fat (this is what makes me )
1/11 75.2 lbs
3/15 75.6 lbs

I know it is only .4 lbs, but I just don't see how it is possible!

I'm glad I had lean body mass gains, but the area I needed to improve more was the fat.

To add to the whole thing, the guy told me I need to eat 1760 calories every day plus eat back exercise calories. I been eating well under that target average while I was doing JUDDD, and at or under 9/10 of the time while doing my TDEE-30% the past couple weeks, without eating back exercise calories. His theory is that I'm not eating enough. The math just doesn't add up that it was possible for me to gain fat. But does it make sense that I would I put on both muscle and fat if I were not eating enough? What is going on here people? Help me out. I just want to know what to do.

What is killing me is that I have been putting so much time and effort into getting to the gym, counting calories (weighing and measuring), and trying to educate myself (especially during this plateau), and I am feeling right now that nothing I try is working. I am really at a loss here.

Do you think people are right when they say you can't add muscle and burn fat at the same time? Help a BUDDD out here ... I'm at my wit's end with this!

Last edited by calichris; 03-15-2014 at 12:05 PM..
calichris is offline   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old 03-15-2014, 12:42 PM   #2
Major LCF Poster!
 
Yennie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,551
Gallery: Yennie
Stats: 5'3" 35yo 199/sig/146 No longer obese!
WOE: A.I. 1/1-1/20; JUDDD 1/21/13, Potatoes as needed
So my first thought without crunching numbers or doing in depth analysis is that 0.4# is likely well within the margin of error for the measuring machine. I refuse to believe their scale/measurements are accurate to more than 0.4#.
Also, the dunk tank records air (in your lungs) as fat. The 0.4# could easily be explained as a last bit of air you didn't expel before the operator took your measurements.
Yennie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 12:43 PM   #3
Big Yapper!!!!
 
LoCarbGal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 9,781
Gallery: LoCarbGal
Stats: 318.5/191/140 5'4" 47 yrs
WOE: Atkins 1/27/12 - 54.5 lbs: JUDDD 9/4/12 - 73 lbs
I think your last comment hits it right on the head, Christina. You can't gain muscle (at all easily) when you're losing fat. I am beginning to believe that more and more.

First of all, ! I am seeing your numbers as a victory!

You had a 1%+ gain in muscle mass. Fantastic!!!

You had only a 1/2% gain in fat, which I think you had to have to gain that muscle mass.

It may very well be that you're not eating enough calories, considering your activity level and your concerted effort to build muscle.

I'm sorry you're feeling disappointed. That sucks! But look how much muscle you gained in just 2 short months! Being a woman, in our age group, with hormonally what we've got going on - SUCCESS!

I hope you can come to see it as a success, and won't stop working out. As far as I'm concerned, you're doing it!

I guess at this point you (and I) have to decide what we want more - increased LBM, or fat loss. Sigh.

coming your way! You're one of my heroes, you know!
__________________
~~~LCG aka Carol~~~

Ordinary things, done consistently, produce extraordinary results. ~ Keith Cunningham

My Journal: LoCarbGal's Balancing Act ~ Losing Fat, Building Muscle, & Living Life!
LoCarbGal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 01:26 PM   #4
Administrator
 
Dottie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: S.E. Texas Gulf Coast
Posts: 71,873
Gallery: Dottie
WOE: 1400 cals/70g carbs/85% Primal
Ignore the last set.
Your lean mass went up and your body fat% went down.
You win
Dottie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 01:27 PM   #5
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
calichris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,949
Gallery: calichris
Stats: 273.7/204.8/147 or size 8/10
WOE: IF/IE
Start Date: 5/26/12; JUDDD 7/11/12
Yennie - you are right, it could have been within the error range. What I was hoping to find out though, is yes, you've gained muscle and also lost fat! And that is not the result I got.

Carol - thanks my friend. I know the LBM is a good thing. I just feel like fat loss is the bigger goal ... but at the same time, I don't want to lose too much LBM with it. And I am completely about how many calories will get me there! But again, this is better than gaining lots of BF or losing LBM, so just keeping trying is keeping me in a better place than I've been in a long time.

Dottie - that is the way of looking at the silver lining.

p.s. oops, my BF% was 37.2 in January, so BF% only went down .1, not .2.

Last edited by calichris; 03-15-2014 at 01:32 PM..
calichris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 03:06 PM   #6
Big Yapper!!!!
 
Carly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: New York
Posts: 7,804
Gallery: Carly
Stats: 199/120.0/126.8 5'2" 38yrs Size 20/4P
WOE: JUDDD/ 5:2 to maintain
Start Date: 2/21/12- Low carb (199lbs) 3/28/12 JUDDD (189lbs)
I'm sure- more than ever, that it's hard to build LBM and lose fat simultaneously. I took a week off from the gym- in part due to TOM, but also because I was exhausting my self. I'm terrified to eat more, but I think if I'm going to try to increase muscle I'll need to, but I'll have to monitor my weight carefully.

It is hard and it's confusing.
Carly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 03:46 PM   #7
Administrator
 
Dottie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: S.E. Texas Gulf Coast
Posts: 71,873
Gallery: Dottie
WOE: 1400 cals/70g carbs/85% Primal
Building muscle and weight loss?
Dottie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 06:16 PM   #8
Big Yapper!!!!
 
Librarygirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 9,065
Gallery: Librarygirl
Stats: HW 207/(JUDDD) 198/CW 172/GW 150 5'4 49 yo
WOE: JUDDD
Start Date: Low calorie 6/12 ; Low carb 9/12/ ; JUDDD 11/13/12
Interesting article, Dottie. I especially like that it mentions calorie cycling and that it can have a positive effect.

Chris, I know the results are confusing, but you're ahead of the majority of us because you at least know what's going on. The results seem so similar to your last test that it makes me wonder if this was too soon for another (test). It's barely been two months since your last one, and could possibly be inaccurate due to things like Yennie mentioned.

I have to ask a very simplistic question because I cannot figure out the logic. If weight training while also trying to lose are incompatible, then what should a person do? I know muscle burns calories better, but without dieting when a person needs to lose weight, will strength training alone do it?
__________________


"Never give up on a dream just because of the length of time it will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."


"In every triumph there is a lot of try."

"Have the courage of your desire."
*Cindy*
Librarygirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 07:49 PM   #9
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
calichris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,949
Gallery: calichris
Stats: 273.7/204.8/147 or size 8/10
WOE: IF/IE
Start Date: 5/26/12; JUDDD 7/11/12
Yes, thanks, Dottie! I thought the article was really interesting ... I just wish they told me exactly what to do.

Cindy - I agree that it was really too soon, and I knew that going in, especially as I hadn't changed a lot on the scale or in sizes (I'm the same size, but shaped differently) but I got valuable information that I wanted: in the last two months, I gained muscle but did not lose any fat. (also: women can apparently gain about a pound of muscle a month, and that's approximately what I gained, so that part is good). The information was worth it to me so I could know if what I was doing is working. I wanted to maintain or gain in LBM, so I met my goal there, but I also wanted to lose fat, and for that goal I need to do something differently.

I'm hoping someone with knowledge about these things will chime in, but my understanding is that your body needs calories to build the muscle, so generally you are either building muscle OR losing fat. If your goal is to lose fat, it's great if you can just maintain as much LBM as possible, as you generally lose some from being in a caloric deficit.
(Is that right, my smart BUDDDs?)

This is what makes me think the guy is maybe not right that I need more calories, because why would I gain muscle at the expected rate, then?

I can't say I have been perfect, but I really feel like almost all the time I am below my target with a few UUADs thrown in there, but not enough (I don't think) to negate all the other days. At least I didn't think so. So either my target is off, or I have to hit my calorie target EVERY day instead of almost every day ... I hope it's the former, because I can be "good" but probably not "perfect."

Last edited by calichris; 03-15-2014 at 07:54 PM..
calichris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 07:59 PM   #10
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
calichris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,949
Gallery: calichris
Stats: 273.7/204.8/147 or size 8/10
WOE: IF/IE
Start Date: 5/26/12; JUDDD 7/11/12
On the brighter side, in the unlikely scenario in which I lost fat but no LBM, before I would have to get to 183.7 to be 31% body fat (which in some scales is no longer obese), but now it would be 185.8. So there's THAT. I also apparently burn 14 more calories a day in RMR. (that's not going to do much, but hey, every little bit helps!)
calichris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 09:27 PM   #11
Major LCF Poster!
 
Yennie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,551
Gallery: Yennie
Stats: 5'3" 35yo 199/sig/146 No longer obese!
WOE: A.I. 1/1-1/20; JUDDD 1/21/13, Potatoes as needed
Balancing act

My gut feeling is this might be a dangerous thing to try to attempt - the balancing of the caloric intake to build muscle but not gain fat. See, I feel like the potential to dramatically over-estimate one's caloric needs would lead to a calorie surplus that would actually result in gaining fat along with muscle. Most of these things we read about - the building muscle stuff - comes from people who are building for things like bodybuilding shows, etc. I lift, on average, for 30-40 minutes 3-5 times per week. Compare this to my sister (the fitness model prepping for her first bikini show) - she is lifting 2-3 HOURS 6-7 days a week. She pretty much does more work in 1 day than I do all week. So, no, we don't need the same caloric intake. Not even close! If I ate like her, I'd gain back all the weight I lost and then some. But she is at 11% body fat.

But, having said that, when I watch WHAT she eats, its dramatically different than what I (usually tend to) eat. This is where I would evoke Mike's argument in another thread (exact location of which is escaping me at the moment) and say that if you (me, we) want to continue to try to lose fat while building muscle/endurance than first, before we freak out about how much we eat, we should first revisit what we're eating.

Now, I haven't had my body fat testing redone (still waiting for the tank to be close enough to me on a day I have free) but I'm only, really, down, like 10#, give or take. I'm sure I've lost more than 10# fat because I know I've gained muscle. Or at least toned the heck out of what I had before because my shape and size is dramatically different than last June. BUT the scale is kinda stuck, and my lifting is kinda stuck but I'm coming into running and horse show season so I'm not going to stop exercising. My concession to this is that, starting March 24th, I am going to change my diet but not necessarily my calories. I'm going to focus on high quality proteins, on both UDs and DDs, complex carbs and try to get away from the mentality that I can eat whatever I want as long as it fits within my calorie limits. I'm not going LC, per se, because if I put limits like that on myself, I tend to snap and then binge. But I'm going to set some daily protein targets and try my darndest to hit them.

I know, for most people, JUDDD works simply by counting calories. There are many who lost/lose by watching calories alone and it doesn't matter what they eat. Heck, I lost 45# that way. But now my goals have changed - to build muscle and fitness, and so my eating habits need to change as well. Its like Nancy says - JUDDD doesn't care what you eat, but your body does. I think my body is starting to care.

I'm not trying to hijack your thread or make this about me. I wanted to use my plan as an example of what maybe you might try first. Stay at the same calories but change what you're eating. Focus on quality foods and really jacking up the protein to give your muscles something to use to grow, but still in the UD/DD to hopefully burn fat. It may not work. I don't know. I feel like it should. But I'm more comfortable doing that to start than upping my calories because I'm terrified I'll lose ground in the fat battle. I'd rather stay the same, or slow to an infinitesimal crawl, than gain back the fat.

Does what I'm saying make sense? I'm super tired right now. I hope it does. If not, tell me and I'll try again tomorrow.
__________________

*****************************************
My Potato Hacking Journal
All I ask is that you lead an evidence-based life.
Yennie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 10:03 PM   #12
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
calichris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,949
Gallery: calichris
Stats: 273.7/204.8/147 or size 8/10
WOE: IF/IE
Start Date: 5/26/12; JUDDD 7/11/12
No, Yennie, that makes sense. I don't think eating more calories is the way I'm going to go. If anything, I was thinking about possibly going lower and also about higher quality food choices too (cutting down on the empty calories, even if they fit in the calorie budget. Trying to get 100 or more grams protein a day has already helped with this).
Are you doing no exercise JUDDD calories right now?

p.s. I'd rather lose fat than gain muscle, but minimizing loss of the muscle I already have would be great.

Last edited by calichris; 03-15-2014 at 10:10 PM..
calichris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 10:17 PM   #13
Major LCF Poster!
 
Yennie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,551
Gallery: Yennie
Stats: 5'3" 35yo 199/sig/146 No longer obese!
WOE: A.I. 1/1-1/20; JUDDD 1/21/13, Potatoes as needed
Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
Are you doing no exercise JUDDD calories right now?

p.s. I'd rather lose fat than gain muscle, but minimizing loss of the muscle I already have would be great.
Good, I'm glad it made sense. I started and deleted my post about 3 times trying to make it generic and not about me but my brain just couldn't tonight. But I wanted to put it out there for you so, sorry, you got me on one of my less eloquent evenings.

I am still using my initial JUDDD numbers, which, I should probably re-evaluate that as well. Which I calculated with no exercise. My rationale for not adjusting them downward was that I had lost weight, but also added exercise so the 2 things probably balanced themselves out. Maybe not and I need to go back to the calculator?

The one thing that terrifies me about dropping my numbers is slowing my metabolism because I DO do so much "cardio" with my running. There is a ton of information coming out of the bodybuilding set (again, only know about this cuz of my sister) suggesting that low calorie, high cardio (you know, the super old school way of "losing weight") is pretty much the fastest way to tank your metabolism, and crash & burn your weight loss efforts.

This is why I want to try, first, adjusting what I eat even more towards high protein, quality nutrients. Spending a week with my sister and seeing the things she ate was really educational. Like I said, calorie wise she was way higher than me but quality wise, she blew me out of the water. And she's 5'7, 129#, compared to my 5'3', ~156# these days. But she's doing the work to need the calories, whereas I am not. And she does almost no cardio, all lifting, especially during her "bulking". Interestingly, when she does do cardio, its HIIT. That won't work for me, but I'm not doing cardio to lose weight, I'm doing cardio because for some reason I like running and will try to adjust the rest around that.
Yennie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 10:48 PM   #14
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
calichris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,949
Gallery: calichris
Stats: 273.7/204.8/147 or size 8/10
WOE: IF/IE
Start Date: 5/26/12; JUDDD 7/11/12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yennie View Post

The one thing that terrifies me about dropping my numbers is slowing my metabolism because I DO do so much "cardio" with my running. There is a ton of information coming out of the bodybuilding set (again, only know about this cuz of my sister) suggesting that low calorie, high cardio (you know, the super old school way of "losing weight") is pretty much the fastest way to tank your metabolism, and crash & burn your weight loss efforts.
This is what terrifies me too! Raising calories and lowering calories both scare me, even though I'm already not losing fat, so what do I have to lose but potentially ... fat? I've read over and over how calories too low is BAD for LBM and metabolism, and "lean body mass is life" (quote from Mark's Daily Apple).

I like cardio, too, and although I thought the stuff I was doing was pretty balanced, I've been trying to actually scale back a little and try different things to see if it makes a difference.
calichris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2014, 11:13 PM   #15
Major LCF Poster!
 
Yennie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,551
Gallery: Yennie
Stats: 5'3" 35yo 199/sig/146 No longer obese!
WOE: A.I. 1/1-1/20; JUDDD 1/21/13, Potatoes as needed
BCAA

Forgot to mention the other thing I'm doing that is kinda new is adding BCAA to my routine. I take a supplement daily, its called Catalyst from Advocare. I LOVE LOVE LOVE it! I don't like, or take, many supplements but this one I really like for its muscle promoting effects.

I've also ordered, from netrition, a powdered BCAA to drink peri-workout (before, during, after). My sister recommended this as well, to spare muscle while lifting. By taking both, in theory, I'm encouraging my body to not burn muscle for fuel while I'm trying to gain muscle and lose fat. Again, in theory...

I'll let you know what I think of the BCAAs. I know there's been a discussion on here about them before but I don't remember where its at now.
Yennie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 01:09 AM   #16
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
SlowSure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: London/Herts UK
Posts: 3,656
Gallery: SlowSure
Stats: 157/106/105-110 HW 168
WOE: JUDDD Maintenance. Ketogenic PHD.
Start Date: 11 Dec. 2011 Restart 1 Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
I agree with the article quoted in that thread.

I'd also recommend a look through Adel Moussa's blog: Suppversity

He has some recent, relevant blog posts:

Losing Weight Doesn't Have to Ruin Your Metabolism: No Unexpected Reduction in Energy Expenditure With Sane Weight Loss. Plus: 9 Simple Rules Every Dieter Must Follow

Where Protein Fails, Protein + Resistance Training Succeed: Lifting Corrects Diet-Induced Decrease in Postprandial Protein Synthesis, But Fails to Normalize Net Retention

It's a tricky, technical blog to read in places but he does summarise the research well.

To cut to the chase, along with his other '9 rules', I think he'd advised you to cut 15% of your overall kcal intake by deducting it from your 'eat back exercise kcals' and then follow where it takes you, cutting again by 5-10% if you encounter a plateau but taking a short break rather than continuing.
  • stick to stepwise reductions of total energy intake - start with 15% and increase in 5-10% steps, whenever you hit a plateau
  • if not absolutely necessary limit your energy deficit to max. 40% - if you hit a plateau, take two weeks off and begin dieting again, instead of running yourself into the ground
  • keep lifting heavy while you're dieting to minimize muscle loss ...
  • Never work out to burn calories | learn why
  • use your diet, and only your diet to generate an energy deficit - there is room for both high intensity interval and classic low intensity steady state (walking on an inclined treadmill) exercise, but it must not be done to "burn calories" (learn why) - unless, obviously, you actually want to feel miserable and accelerate the fal loss stalling adaptive reduction in energy expenditure
  • increase in protein intake to >25% of total energy...[but <40%]
  • implement regular refeeds, whenever your total energy deficit is >25% - the refeeds will consist of a single day of 10-15% above maintenance energy intake with a focus on carbohydrates, and should be implemented once or twice a week; they are are believed "to temporarily increase circulating leptin and stimulate the metabolic rate" (Trexler. 2014) and will thus postpone the occurrence of weight loss plateaus
  • The beneficial metabolic effects of veggies are mediated in parts by stretch receptor <> vagus nerve interactions in your gut (Rolls. 2002; de Graaf. 2011). These are reduced / absent if you juice or powder your veggies.
  • fill yourself up with vegetables - except from a few "high energy" exceptions you can and should eat as many veggies as possible; aside from the tons of healthy vitamins and phytonutrients, the mere increase in food volume is going to have a major metabolic impact that goes way beyond an increase in satiety...
  • avoid post-starvation obesity by working your way up to your habitual energy intake progressively - this is particularly important to avoid the formation of new fat cells (=adipocyte hyperplasia), which are currently believed to stick "forever" (=the cells whole life-cycle of ~10 years); neither the pizza and McDonald's diet, nor - and this is something most people tend to overlook - returning to the dietary habits that brought you into a situation, where dietary restriction became obligatory to get (back) in shape are feasible ways of eating after a diet; increase your energy intake in <5% steps every three days and watch the scale and your image in the mirror carefully to minimize fat gains (it's impossible not to gain a minimal amount of fat)
In that last point, he's describing 'reverse dieting'.
__________________
Motto: SINS - Simple Is the New Sustainable

Sept 2014 A recent DXA scan reported very low muscle mass (sarcopenia) so I'm still thinking about how to cope with that. I have some joint surgery to schedule. I may miss questions that people ask me or personals. Apologies if I do, it's not intentional.
SlowSure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 01:31 AM   #17
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
SlowSure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: London/Herts UK
Posts: 3,656
Gallery: SlowSure
Stats: 157/106/105-110 HW 168
WOE: JUDDD Maintenance. Ketogenic PHD.
Start Date: 11 Dec. 2011 Restart 1 Jan 2013
Adel Moussa's blog posts and advice are just additional confirmation as to what Yennie's sister is doing. He consistently and frequently emphasises that we should eat food not macronutrients and everyone is well advised to get what they need from high quality meals with complete proteins and vegetables. He says there is room for cardio (LISS) but otherwise advocates lifting and HIIT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yennie View Post
the building muscle stuff - comes from people who are building for things like bodybuilding shows, etc. I lift, on average, for 30-40 minutes 3-5 times per week. Compare this to my sister (the fitness model prepping for her first bikini show) - she is lifting 2-3 HOURS 6-7 days a week....But she is at 11% body fat.
...
I know I've gained muscle. Or at least toned the heck out of what I had before because my shape and size is dramatically different than last June. ...I'm going to focus on high quality proteins...But I'm going to set some daily protein targets and try my darndest to hit them.

...
Focus on quality foods and really jacking up the protein to give your muscles something to use to grow, but still in the UD/DD to hopefully burn fat. It may not work. I don't know. I feel like it should.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
I was thinking about possibly going lower and also about higher quality food choices too (cutting down on the empty calories, even if they fit in the calorie budget. Trying to get 100 or more grams protein a day has already helped with this).
...
p.s. I'd rather lose fat than gain muscle, but minimizing loss of the muscle I already have would be great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yennie View Post
The one thing that terrifies me about dropping my numbers is slowing my metabolism because I DO do so much "cardio" with my running.... low calorie, high cardio (you know, the super old school way of "losing weight") is pretty much the fastest way to tank your metabolism, and crash & burn your weight loss efforts.

...Spending a week with my sister and seeing the things she ate was really educational. Like I said, calorie wise she was way higher than me but quality wise, she blew me out of the water. ...Interestingly, when she does do cardio, its HIIT. That won't work for me, but I'm not doing cardio to lose weight, I'm doing cardio because for some reason I like running and will try to adjust the rest around that.
Adel would advise at least 30g of quality protein at each major meal (he doesn't include protein from vegetable or other sources in that count).

As for apprehensions about the metabolism, I strongly recommend the whole of Adel's 9 Rules post from which the above is quoted.

I'm going to pop a little something about muscle building in my next comment.
SlowSure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 01:50 AM   #18
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
SlowSure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: London/Herts UK
Posts: 3,656
Gallery: SlowSure
Stats: 157/106/105-110 HW 168
WOE: JUDDD Maintenance. Ketogenic PHD.
Start Date: 11 Dec. 2011 Restart 1 Jan 2013
There are considerable differences between muscle building (as in adding new muscle) and muscle hypertrophy in some ways (increasing the density of the muscle that exists). See how awkwardly phrased this is already? We can increase the size of a muscle that has been glycogen-depleted by a low-carb diet and a running-down of the glycogen stores if we then take on board sufficient carbs - the glycogen pops out and fills the muscle making it look 'right' for competition. (There's a whole area of controversy about the models/builders who make themselves ill by dehydration and do 'dry' carb re-feeds to get the glycogen pump look but without gaining water weight that would puff up and conceal the muscle.)

Exercise of an appropriate sort may increase the cross-sectional area of muscles - combination of muscle fibres (see below) and hydration.

Just as a general comment - men build muscle in response to intense, appropriate activity because they have testosterone (assuming we're discussing 'natural' gains here because too many aren't). By and large, at our hormonal peak, women have the testosterone of a 10yr-old boy (i.e., we have roughly comparable amounts until puberty and then male production of testosterone kicks in).

Normal testosterone levels for chaps range from 300-1100 ng/dl while for women the normal range is 15-70 ng/dl (the range reflects adult life-cycles/age). The median-range testosterone levels are men = 700 and women = 42.5. So, crudely, the average chap produces approx. x16 more testosterone than an average woman (a fair amount of the research literature points towards > x25).

Crudely, and in the absence of unusual genetic variations and a small number of interesting syndromes, what happens to the size of women's muscles is governed by the fibres that make them up. In general, women possess a higher percentage of type I (slow-twitch) muscle fibres than chaps and these are smaller than type II (fast-twitch fibres) (Tipton, 2001). There is some indications from animal studies that our female hormones have a logic that is currently concealed from us and might actually inhibit muscle protein synthesis (Tipton, 2001*). There may even be fluctuations in our ability to use protein and perform protein synthesis that are dependent upon our menstrual cycle (one of the reasons that researchers duck out from performing this research).

What this translates to is that women tend not to have the 'look at my Pop-Eye-sized muscles' sorts of muscle fibre in abundance.

Tipton, K. D. (2001). Gender differences in protein metabolism. Opinion in Clinical Nutrition & Metabolic Care, 4(6), 493-498. (pdf)

Last edited by SlowSure; 03-16-2014 at 01:53 AM..
SlowSure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 06:40 AM   #19
Senior LCF Member
 
Planelman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 877
Gallery: Planelman
Stats: 350.1/206.4/190(10%BF) 6' 44
WOE: Leangains/Carb Backloading
Start Date: 7/14/2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
No, Yennie, that makes sense. I don't think eating more calories is the way I'm going to go. If anything, I was thinking about possibly going lower and also about higher quality food choices too (cutting down on the empty calories, even if they fit in the calorie budget. Trying to get 100 or more grams protein a day has already helped with this).
Are you doing no exercise JUDDD calories right now?

p.s. I'd rather lose fat than gain muscle, but minimizing loss of the muscle I already have would be great.
I'm not sure what % you are using on the JUDDD calculator or what activity level, but I'm not sure I would dismiss outright the idea that eating more might help.

Looking at the weight alone you were at for each test, you had a higher weight for the second test so there was some measurable gain since the first test. It is not surprising then that some of it might have been fat, because just like with losses, you will gain/lose fat with muscle gain/loss. But the fat gain is so small it could be an error as was pointed out with the measurement technique and its accuracy.

Back on eating more, remembering back through the months of daily weigh ins several people, including myself, ran into plateaus and experimented with higher DD's and that actually got the scale moving again. Those same people often were exercising too. Since I don't know your current UD/DD numbers I cannot critic it directly against your activity level, but I think it is worth looking at your TDEE without exercise, then look at your exercise minutes each week as a total and multiply that number by 4-5 (to be conservative) to get exercise calories burned each week. The total of TDEEx7 plus exercise calories for the week is theoretically what you would need to eat to maintain, if everyone was the same, which they aren't so it is just a general target. Compare that to what you are eating to now and see how big a deficit you are really eating to. It may just be too big a deficit.

JUDDD the way most of us do it is really just calorie cycling, so you might as well time your exercise with UD's, so the surplus of calories is used to refuel you for the next time your exercise and is used for repair/building of muscles. I would try to give specific targets but they would be very non-JUDDD for DD. I personally am doing Rest Days (DD's) at TDEE - 20% and Workout days (UD's) at TDEE + exercise which is about the equivalent of TDEE + 10%. This theoretically should result in a slight overall deficit for fat loss/weight loss and so far is working. Working with this type of calorie cycling you can aim for a deficit both days for a faster weight loss, or do a body recomp by doing +/- the same percentage to burn fat/gain muscle at the same weight. But when you aim for to big a % deficit it gain backfire and result in a stall or even a gain, the gain may just be water from increased stress/cortisol.

This would result in some non-JUDDD numbers, but you could then look at the calculator and see what activity level and % this would equate to for a week and try those numbers.

As for nutrition, protein first, aim for .7 - .9g of protein per pound of LBM a day, and then fill in the rest based on how you are eating, LC or not. And for the all food try to get the best quality, nutritionally, you can.
__________________
Mike

159.3 Pounds lost since 7/14/2011

Low Calorie: 7/14/2011 - 80lbs lost
Primal: 4/20/2012 - 55.3lbs lost
JUDDD: 4/10/2013 - 23.4lbs lost
Nutritional Ketosis 9/1/2013 - 15.4% BF
Planelman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 07:08 AM   #20
Way too much time on my hands!
 
KeirasMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 14,163
Gallery: KeirasMom
Stats: 277.6/150/150 (per Dr., stop losing!)
WOE: Whatever plan keeps me around 150 lbs!
Everyone else is so much more knowledgeable about all this than I am, but I wanted to pop in and offer support.
KeirasMom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 09:19 AM   #21
Senior LCF Member
 
Sammyann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 683
Gallery: Sammyann
Stats: 162/140.5/maintain 135-139
WOE: JUDDD
Start Date: March 2012 re-start Dec. 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeirasMom View Post
Everyone else is so much more knowledgeable about all this than I am, but I wanted to pop in and offer support.
Me too.
Sammyann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 09:23 AM   #22
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
calichris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,949
Gallery: calichris
Stats: 273.7/204.8/147 or size 8/10
WOE: IF/IE
Start Date: 5/26/12; JUDDD 7/11/12
Thanks, Mike ... I thought you might have some ideas, so I'm glad you popped in. Here's some more info about what I've tried since January.
(For reference, my JUDDD numbers on no exercise would be 1932/386 and light exercise are 2214/416) I calculated that in February (assuming charts are correct) I burned more calories than are accounted for by the light exercise setting in JUDDD, but not as many as moderate, so that seems about right.
  • 1st two weeks: uncounted up days, 500 calorie down days
  • Next two weeks: counted up days on light exercise calories, 500-700 calorie down days. This gave me an average intake of 1350-1450 so I should have lost on that, but didn't on the scale.
  • Next two weeks: same as above, but increased protein to 100g or more/day on up days, just did the best I could on DDs.
  • Last two weeks: TDEE (Katch-McArdle) on light exercise setting - 20% = 1772. The Body Fat Test guy uses the Cunningham model which says my RMR is 1760. His recommendation is to eat that much and then add back exercise calories, but that seems like a lot. The Cunningham is the highest calorie model of them all.

I have also had a few (maybe 3) UUADs in the weeks I've been counting. I'm sure that factored in, but since my maintenance is supposedly over 2200 though, I don't think I overshot by all that much.

So here's what I'm thinking:

JUDDD down days are hard for me right now (they haven't been in the past, but now they are), and I'm experiencing them as stress EOD, and even UDs have not seemed enough. That could come from either fatigue, increased exercise, or the calories not being right, I don't know.

On the other hand, I need an occasional day or meal off to sustain a plan, say once every 1-2 weeks, and JUDDD seems to be more forgiving of that than every day TDEE.

I've considered:

Keep with the TDEE -20%, but add in one up day (maintenance cals or moderate free day) and one down day a week.

Go to TDEE -25% and allow one free meal or day/week.

Go to JUDDD no exercise calories and only exercise on UDs, and only do lifting and HIIT.

Do a modified JUDDD of 2000/1000 (this would give me a 1500 calorie average without being too stressful).

Calorie cycling? (freedieting has an interesting plan) or other plan? (suggestions welcome)

One thing I probably am just not mentally ready to do at this point is very low DDs. Even if I went to JUDDD no exercise numbers, I wouldn't go under 500 calorie DDs on a regular basis.

Thoughts?

Also: I will check out the site SS mentioned! Thanks for your support, Dawn.

Last edited by calichris; 03-16-2014 at 09:36 AM..
calichris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 12:40 PM   #23
Big Yapper!!!!
 
Carly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: New York
Posts: 7,804
Gallery: Carly
Stats: 199/120.0/126.8 5'2" 38yrs Size 20/4P
WOE: JUDDD/ 5:2 to maintain
Start Date: 2/21/12- Low carb (199lbs) 3/28/12 JUDDD (189lbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
I've considered:

Keep with the TDEE -20%, but add in one up day (maintenance cals or moderate free day) and one down day a week.

Go to TDEE -25% and allow one free meal or day/week.

Go to JUDDD no exercise calories and only exercise on UDs, and only do lifting and HIIT.

Do a modified JUDDD of 2000/1000 (this would give me a 1500 calorie average without being too stressful).

Calorie cycling? (freedieting has an interesting plan) or other plan? (suggestions welcome)

One thing I probably am just not mentally ready to do at this point is very low DDs. Even if I went to JUDDD no exercise numbers, I wouldn't go under 500 calorie DDs on a regular basis.

Thoughts?

Also: I will check out the site SS mentioned! Thanks for your support, Dawn.
Did you look at the 100 calorie diet on freediet?

I liked how that one sounded and seemed that it could transition well with juddd.
Carly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 01:06 PM   #24
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
calichris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,949
Gallery: calichris
Stats: 273.7/204.8/147 or size 8/10
WOE: IF/IE
Start Date: 5/26/12; JUDDD 7/11/12
That looks interesting, Carly!

I don't know ... my brain hurts. I'm leaning toward trying the 9 rules that SS mentioned, which is pretty similar to what I'm doing, but with a couple new things that might help, and I can step calories down if needed. I also just want to keep it simple and not spend all my time thinking about menu plans, etc. , so I think I'll just keep a very similar breakfast and lunch M-F and just vary dinner (for my family's sake) and weekends (to not get bored). However, still welcoming thoughts and ideas.

SammyAnn: Thanks!

Last edited by calichris; 03-16-2014 at 01:09 PM..
calichris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 01:32 PM   #25
Senior LCF Member
 
Planelman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 877
Gallery: Planelman
Stats: 350.1/206.4/190(10%BF) 6' 44
WOE: Leangains/Carb Backloading
Start Date: 7/14/2011
I think keeping it simple is what helped me most in weight loss mode. I figured out a menu that fit in my calories, with a few different options for lunch and dinner, and just ate the same things all the time. No real energy went towards figuring out what to eat and I rarely had to improvise. I was able to focus my energy towards sticking to my plan, not constantly revising it. For 21 months I only switched strategies twice.

With you changing strategies every 2 weeks, maybe you never get to see what is or will eventually work. Changes or tweaks should be very minimal and should be given a chance to work or determine they are really not working. Unless the changes are rapid and undesirable, like when I tried the potato hack and gained 10 pounds in 3 days. Dialing in the right calorie range should result in 100-200 calorie changes and then a period of time to see if the change results in the desired effect.
Planelman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 02:10 PM   #26
Major LCF Poster!
 
Yennie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,551
Gallery: Yennie
Stats: 5'3" 35yo 199/sig/146 No longer obese!
WOE: A.I. 1/1-1/20; JUDDD 1/21/13, Potatoes as needed
Thanks Mike and SS for chiming in with your well written and much better formulated advise than I can ever manage.
I'm just back from today's 1/2 marathon (according to my Nike+ app, I burned 1400+ calories...think I can eat those back? ) soaking wet and headed to shower. Yes, I checked LCF before showering. (Hubby is getting ready for work so I can't just yet, real reason why I'm here instead of showering.)
I want to read some more of the recommended blogs when my brain fuzz clears and see if I cant figure out a plan as well. I do know, whatever I decide to do, I need to focus on higher quality foods. Like Christina, I know, mentally, I need a "cheat day" or whatever (I hate that term, which I wrote about ad nauseum in my blog) or I'll derail completely but if those days are pre-assigned, and maybe even designated as a re-feed, it might be doable.
Yennie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 02:18 PM   #27
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
calichris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,949
Gallery: calichris
Stats: 273.7/204.8/147 or size 8/10
WOE: IF/IE
Start Date: 5/26/12; JUDDD 7/11/12
I know I'm impatient, but it's because I haven't seen a new low since August. Between then and January, I added back about 7 (now 9) pounds. I was still doing rotations during that time, but more loosely. I thought I would lose well in January because I hadn't been losing weight for so long and because I was very motivated and put in a lot of effort.

So how long is long enough? I thought that it was smart to stop having uncounted up days after only two weeks, because there was no loss and I didn't know how many calories I was having. The second phase was really four weeks ... the only change I made was to have more of my calories in protein. I probably haven't given this last thing enough time, but since the body fat test confirms that I was not losing fat I feel like I need to do something differently. If a 200 pound woman can't even lose one pound of fat in two weeks, something's not right.


Last edited by calichris; 03-16-2014 at 02:20 PM..
calichris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 03:29 PM   #28
Senior LCF Member
 
Planelman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 877
Gallery: Planelman
Stats: 350.1/206.4/190(10%BF) 6' 44
WOE: Leangains/Carb Backloading
Start Date: 7/14/2011
I think a reasonable timeframe to evaluate progress is 4 weeks, so yes the second test was long enough but may have been the wrong calorie range. The first 2 weeks with uncounted UD's, we don't know what the average was so who knows what the results would have been. The last 2 weeks theoretically should work as long as your deficit with exercise is not too much. Changes in weight or measurements will be the only way you can evaluate any changes.

Are you eating low carb? You indicated a protein target, but didn't say how you are filling the rest of your calories. I think a target for carbs anywhere from 50g-100g daily from good non-inflammatory sources should promote fat loss and help maintain lean mass with an appropriate protein target. Also, eliminate other inflammatory foods and fats (veg oil) and foods that mess with hormones like grains, potatoes, soy.

As far as cheat days or free days, I fully support them and I have always incorporated them in some way or another. But they are always planned when possible. They need to be appropriately sized and timed so they are not happening all the time and are not so over the top that you cannot recover from it and make significant progress towards your goal before the next cheat day. Also above all you might feel like you earned a cheat day or meal, but you also earned some of your health back and you shouldn't compromise that just because you earned it. One thing I did for myself because I love buffalo wings was to create the "Wing Rule" where I could have 15 wings for every 15 pounds I lost. It naturally put a reasonable timeframe between rewards, and any gain would have to be worked off plus 15 until the next. It usually worked out to 3-5 weeks between and ended up with a high calorie day which looking back helped offset the constant low calorie days and probably helped me actually lose more.
Planelman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 04:06 PM   #29
Very Gabby LCF Member!!!
 
calichris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,949
Gallery: calichris
Stats: 273.7/204.8/147 or size 8/10
WOE: IF/IE
Start Date: 5/26/12; JUDDD 7/11/12
Thanks Mike - I'm not low carb yet but agree I need to work my way in that direction. I have not been able to sustain low carb long term in the past, so I want to be thoughtful about finding the place that will work, that is healthy, and that I can sustain without rebelling. I think reducing carbs as much as I think I can is definitely a good idea. More protein has helped, and I'm about to increase veggies and cut back on empty calories/processed stuff, so that should help too.

Yennie, what does your sister eat?

I agree about the "cheat" days/meals (I am not a fan of the word "cheat" either, Yennie). Although I want to be able to have maybe a free meal a week (because sometimes you go out and just don't know the calories), I will be very motivated now to keep it moderate to avoid any chance that it is undoing my other work. I used to be able to have the occasional "pretend I'm not on a diet" day and not have it affect my loss, but maybe I can't do that as much anymore.
calichris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 04:28 PM   #30
Major LCF Poster!
 
Yennie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,551
Gallery: Yennie
Stats: 5'3" 35yo 199/sig/146 No longer obese!
WOE: A.I. 1/1-1/20; JUDDD 1/21/13, Potatoes as needed
It depends on what cycle she's in but mostly she alternates between lower calorie, highly focused on protein & veggies with some complex carbs and a higher calorie where she'll eat more carbs than on the lower calorie days. She likes protein shakes and such so she utilizes those types of products to hit her protein numbers.
Typically a breakfast might be an egg white omelet with lots of veggies +/- some oatmeal. She'll take BCAAs before and during a workout and a protein shake after. Sometimes with a banana and sometimes some oats in the shake (which was actually surprisingly decent - she shared). Lunch and dinner heavy on the protein (chicken, fish typically) with veggies and brown rice or sweet potatoes. The amounts of carbs will vary depending on which cycle she's in.
Yennie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:28 PM.


Copyright ©1999-2014 Friends Forums LLC. All rights reserved. - Terms of Service | Privacy Policy
LowCarbFriends® is a registered mark of Friends Forums, LLC.