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Old 03-27-2014, 05:35 PM   #181
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I think my head is finally through with all this diet fatigue. I've been having the weird sensation that I "should" eat some more, because I can right now, but then I'll stand in front of the fridge and nothing sounds good. Then I realize, if nothing sounds good, I don't need to eat! Wow! So I feel really ready for my JUDDD restart next week.

I have been really consuming and digesting the info on the Eat More 2 Weigh Less site and YouTube videos. Very interesting, and kinda scary. I'm not going to do the reset thing like they recommend, because I feel like I kind of have been doing that during this break, and I want to get back to JUDDD. But I will be trying to eat a higher number of calories for my daily average. I am realizing that my average pre-fatigue/break was really quite unreasonably low! Sorry poor body!

I've also ordered The New Rules of Lifting For Women. Maybe I'm really ready to start lifting heavy. Yikes!
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Old 03-27-2014, 06:07 PM   #182
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It sounds like you are feeling excited!!
YAY!!
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:21 PM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCarbGal View Post
I think my head is finally through with all this diet fatigue. I've been having the weird sensation that I "should" eat some more, because I can right now, but then I'll stand in front of the fridge and nothing sounds good. Then I realize, if nothing sounds good, I don't need to eat! Wow! So I feel really ready for my JUDDD restart next week.

I have been really consuming and digesting the info on the Eat More 2 Weigh Less site and YouTube videos. Very interesting, and kinda scary. I'm not going to do the reset thing like they recommend, because I feel like I kind of have been doing that during this break, and I want to get back to JUDDD. But I will be trying to eat a higher number of calories for my daily average. I am realizing that my average pre-fatigue/break was really quite unreasonably low! Sorry poor body!

I've also ordered The New Rules of Lifting For Women. Maybe I'm really ready to start lifting heavy. Yikes!
I have NROLFW on my Kindle. I read part of it, but stopped because I wanted a hard copy I could take to the gym. Uh, yeah, that never happened. I've glanced at the EM2WL site and their group on the fitness/calorie tracker I use. It appears the 2 women who started EM2WL still post on the tracking app I use. I'm interested in their principles, but haven't delved deeply enough to really "get it" yet. I'm sort of doing the reset by eating at maintenance for a while, and trying not to freak out about any gains, even though I'm currently about 7 pounds over my low. I'm also beginning to see that my average calories were probably a bit too low for my body, and I'm hoping to either reverse diet, or reset, or whatever to get it a bit higher. Please share any tidbits of wisdom as you come across them. I'll try to do the same.
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:46 PM   #184
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Carol - I have a copy of New Rules of Lifting for Women right next to me as I am reading your post! and I am about to go to the gym and was wondering if I can use it yet even though I've only read a bit. I keep walking around the "guys'" side of the gym trying to check out what everyone is doing there. Last time I did squats and deadlifts with a barbell. No one kicked me out. Whoo hoo! Yeah, I probably can't use the book today, I just decided. But l will be trying their exercises when I've read more.

Dawn - I've read two approaches ... either just go right to what should be your maintenance calories (like ripping off a bandaid ... get it over with) knowing that a slowed metabolism may gain on this for awhile until it stabilizes, or do the gradual approach and add a bit back at a time. It's all kind of interesting and scary at the same time, right? I'll be watching everyone's experiments with interest!

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Old 03-28-2014, 02:58 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
I've read two approaches ... either just go right to what should be your maintenance calories (like ripping off a bandaid ... get it over with) knowing that a slowed metabolism may gain on this for awhile until it stabilizes, or do the gradual approach and add a bit back at a time. It's all kind of interesting and scary at the same time, right? I'll be watching everyone's experiments with interest!
tbh, if people can stand the time it takes and they wanted to do the reset, I think the gradual approach is the way to go. I could be wrong, but it's less likely to result in the production of new fat cells, all releasing hormone signals that they'd like to grow up and become larger fat cells. (I suspect there's a male/female difference, and for both, an age-related difference.)
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:24 AM   #186
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I had a pretty big bounce over the weekend, and started at maintenance calories on Monday, at 151.2 pounds. Here's how it's going so far (**I had hoped the weekend bloat would go away, but it hasn't):

3/24 151.2 1525 calories/77g protein
3/25 150.2 1429/95
3/26 150.4 1670/68
3/27 150.6 1491/108
3/28 150.2

So, while my weight isn't going down exactly, my bounces are pretty much non-existant - so far. I was as low as 144.8 last week, so while I'm not bouncing right now, I'm certainly higher than my comfort zone (144-146).

I agree with SS, that slowly introducing more calories is probably wiser and healthier, but I tend to just jump right in, and did so knowing my weight was already inflated. It's also how I started JUDDD, coming from Atkins--just jumped right into the carbs and didn't look back.

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Old 03-28-2014, 11:02 AM   #187
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I dont know if this will help anyone but about a year ago, after 5 years of maintaining my weight below 130#, i am 5'7" I decided to eat again to restore my metabolism because i wasnt able to keep my caloric intake below 1300 a day in order to keep maintaining. I felt starved. I was advised to do 2000 a day.

The first week was a lot of awful feelings. Bloat, nauseausness, fear. i didnt gain very fast.
I could tell that what i gained at first was water. The bloating didnt stop for months. The weight gain began when the pain started. I had pain all over, bones, teeth, muscles.
Backaches. At first it felt wonderful to eat that much. Soon it became normal. At first my skin and hair really improved. Later i began having serious breast pain and funny looking small lumps under my skin. Well, who knows what was going on. After 4 months of pain and bloating I decided that was enough and began restricting calories again. I found it difficult but lost enough to feel ok. Definately my set point of calories had changed and i could eat more and drop weight easier. I hadn't gained back up to my highest weight which was 175. Probably i gained only 20 pounds which would be up to 150. I havent had a scale but going by how my clothing fits I dont have much more to lose before I will be back around the low 130's again.

if I had known about juddd I wonder if it wouldnt have been easier to just eat to 2000 on up days and eat 1000 on down days. I believe that would have been kinder to my body rather than the shock I put myself through. 1500 calories averaging for the every 2 days would be pretty normal at my bmr with low excersize and my desire to eat a normal amount would have also been satisfied.

Well, at least now I know about JUDDD and can do it instead of the whole ordeal I did last year!

Maybe I dont understand why there is a need to switch the woe, it seems that the eod approach would be enough variation.

Please explain this to me. My experiment was for re-feeding after keeping my weight too low in past years. I felt i had never really gotten caught up repairing my body after severe calorie restriction because I could never maintain at a repectable amount of calories.

Now I am eating around 500 on DD and around 1800 to 1900 on UD and losing ok, so my metabolism seems to be back to normal. Pain is gone , no bloating and skin has cleared up.

Bottom line for what I learned: re feeding fixes metabolism. But other things are not so pleasant.
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Old 03-28-2014, 11:30 AM   #188
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Thanks for sharing that, Milly. That is very interesting indeed.

I think the reason some people want to switch from JUDDD is because it still feels like a diet, restricting so severely EOD, after they've reached their goal weight. After a year or more of doing eod, it does get tiresome sometimes, but many people seem to be comfortable with keeping the rotations right on. Also, some find that they don't need to restrict eod and can do one or two fasting days a week and maintain. Still others are experimenting with how many calories they can eat every day and maintain without fasting at all.
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Old 03-28-2014, 12:23 PM   #189
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Thanks for sharing that, Milly. That is very interesting indeed.

I think the reason some people want to switch from JUDDD is because it still feels like a diet, restricting so severely EOD, after they've reached their goal weight. After a year or more of doing eod, it does get tiresome sometimes, but many people seem to be comfortable with keeping the rotations right on. Also, some find that they don't need to restrict eod and can do one or two fasting days a week and maintain. Still others are experimenting with how many calories they can eat every day and maintain without fasting at all.
Yes, and also to see if we (I) can push the boundaries a little further and end up being able to eat more, whether it's daily or EOD, and still maintain. My TDEE, if the calculator is to be trusted, is under 1650. At my height and weight, I'd really like to push that up a little bit. I have a little niggling thought in my mind that my TDEE is actually lower. I maintain very well on 2000/1000 or 2500/500, etc., but that works out to 1500 daily. I'm greedy.
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Old 03-28-2014, 12:45 PM   #190
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Part of the reason I don’t count calories is that my numbers are all so low I feel deprived just looking at them.
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Old 03-28-2014, 12:50 PM   #191
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Dawn and Christina, I'm really excited that you guys are contemplating doing this stuff too - both the eating a bit more and the lifting. I'm not wild about actually working out with a buddy, but I do love having the support we share here about it. Yes, please do share any info or tips or whatever you come across!

Dawn, I just this morning signed onto that site you are referring to, and joined the EM2WL and JUDDD groups there (I saw you!) Seems like this group over here is the place to be though, as far as JUDDD goes. I'm looking forward to delving more into EM2WL.

Christina, the "guys" side of the gym has always scared me too! When I've gone to a gym that is, which has been awhile! Good for you for trying some new stuff. I want to hear all about it and how you feel. I have a little gym right around the corner in a strip mall that does a lot of martial arts, but also weightlifting, powerlifting, kettlebell, etc. I'm tempted to go talk to them.

I am firmly dedicated to sticking with JUDDD in some form or other, whether it be EOD, or 5:2, or just an eating window. I truly believe in the health-giving aspects that ADF has to offer, and I don't want to give them up. That said, I will probably take regular breaks here and there. It's very freeing, and if it helps my metabolism not keep shrinking....well then YAY. And I do believe I may have slightly higher DDs and UDs both, if I can swing it. This should be an interesting experiement.

Slow, I agree that the gradual upping of calories is probably the gentlest and least gain-inducing way to go. Unfortunately I wasn't able to do that....mentally, and just dove in to higher cals. It's okay though. I've come to terms with my gain and am ready to get it off again, hopefully with a less dramatic deficit.

Milly, my gosh, you really did have some dramatic side-effects from raising your cals. I think your idea of 1000/2000 may have some merit, and I may try something sort of like that, with a 300, 400, or 500 day tossed in every week or so. I definitely want the good stuff the SIRTs have to offer.

Pat, yes I am excited! And so glad to be back in that mental place. Whew, what a relief.
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Old 03-28-2014, 01:22 PM   #192
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Carol, so happy you're feeling rejuvenated and ready to start again! You have had such a long journey, and your positive attitude was such an asset to that. This break sounds like it was just what you needed.

I glanced at the EM2WL website and it seemed a little daunting! I can't imagine eating that many calories and still losing, but it also seems like they're pretty clear on the types of foods being important. I'm very curious to see how you incorporate those philosophies into JUDDD or some form of IF.
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Old 03-28-2014, 01:58 PM   #193
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I have a little gym right around the corner in a strip mall that does a lot of martial arts, but also weightlifting, powerlifting, kettlebell, etc. I'm tempted to go talk to them.
You should totally go talk to them. Small gyms tend to be really awesome small support groups. And a lot of those types of gyms are really good for taking in people and helping them/ teaching them. I have a lot of guy friends (alas, across the pond) who are total softies and would love to help out newbies. They look big and bad, but they're total teddy bears at heart.
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Old 03-28-2014, 02:00 PM   #194
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Small rant warning

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I maintain very well on 2000/1000 or 2500/500, etc., but that works out to 1500 daily. I'm greedy.
I realise that you're tongue in cheek but that's not going to forestall my small rant.*

Why does wanting to eat above 1500kcals a day sound greedy for someone your age and height? The so-called GDA is 2000kcals and that's allegedly based on the needs of the average post-menopausal woman - and you're considerably taller than the average in that case.

I think that I've mentioned this before but a few years ago, a US dietitian accepted the challenge of designing a day's menu to meet the daily guidelines. It wasn't possible within her 1650kcal allotment (appropriate for her small size and age). Now, in general, people are encouraged to take an overview of their diet over a week, rather than just a daily notional counting-up but I think that it's an indication of how tricky it is to meet current nutritional guidelines within a relatively small kcal allowance.

There are women of your height and age who eat between 2400-3000kcals+ per day. Granted, they're probably active by UK standards, and probably have a decent BMR with a decent amount of skeletal muscle - but it really isn't that an unreasonable amount of food, particularly not if it's from sources that nourish you rather than throwing your metabolism into a tizzy.

I'd like to get to a minimum of 1750kcal a day (altho' I realise that the sarcopenia may make that implausible as I literally do not have the muscle). Ideally, I'd have liked 2000-2200kcal as I feel that would have given me an excellent bulwark for ageing well.

So, if you can manage to get appropriate advice for your complex of musculo-skeletal issues (and I don't say that blithely), and you can develop your muscle mass or muscle quality while you still have decent hormones to allow that, then I don't think it's unreasonable for you to set a highish target for your TDEE and food intake.

*The rant isn't about you personally - I think women are culturally shamed to admit to having a hearty appetite or desire to enjoy food, at times. And, this isn't you at all, but I'm increasingly irritated by the public rhetoric of public health people or diet gurus about 'bingeing', 'gorging' or being 'gluttonous' when people are eating quantities that don't even approximate to my idea of what that would look like.
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Old 03-28-2014, 02:14 PM   #195
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Rant on, SS. Yes, I was sort of tongue-in-cheek with my comment, but not entirely so. We have been conditioned to think we need fewer and fewer calories. It used to be that a healthy, relatively active woman my age would be expected to consume 2000 or more calories per day. Not so, anymore, and it feels sort of gluttonous to want to. In my early 20s, I'm sure I consumed 3000 calories per day, regularly-maybe even on average, and wasn't that much more active than I am now, and never had to worry about weight. There are just so many factors at play, it's a very difficult set of circumstances to navigate. I'm maintaining at a higher weight now, on half the calories. It just doesn't seem in line with my increased age. Some of that's thyroid related. Some, I'm sure is the decline in the quality of foods we have access to now (and even though I eat out more than most, I do try to choose good, healthy options "most" of the time). Some is related to activity levels. It still seems off-kilter, though.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:27 PM   #196
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I have a 54-year-old friend who lost 25 pounds two years ago who maintains her weight between 135 and 140 on 2000 calories. She's 5'7". She is a meticulous calorie counter. She writes down everything she eats every single day. She doesn't count vegetables except beans and starches. For exercise she tries to either walk 30 minutes a day or take a bike ride for 30 minutes. She eats very healthy, lots of fruit and vegetables and whole grains. She rarely splurges with desserts. Maybe her food choices give her an edge.
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:02 PM   #197
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That sounds really promising. I could definitely live life that way.
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:09 PM   #198
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Don't know if this helps her, too, but she divides her calories into three 500-calorie meals and the other 500 into two or three snacks. She plans snacks at about 10 am and 3 pm and wiil sometimes save some calories for a snack before bed. Maybe she's a little OCD, too.
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:11 PM   #199
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I could do 3 healthy 500 calorie meals if I could "spend" the other 500 calories on treats and wine. That probably wouldn't work so well.
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:23 PM   #200
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Hey, it may be worth it! Sounds like perfect snacks!
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Old 03-29-2014, 01:17 PM   #201
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Have been at maintenance calories or a bit above for the last week or so, and I'm exited for going back into what I hope will be WLM starting April 1 with my first DD in a few weeks!

Feeling good about my plan. Slight tweak:
700 cal DD Tu, Th, and Sat*. Low carb. I found a menu that will get 95 grams of protein in with 700 cals.
1900 cal M, W, Sun* (this is sedentary TDEE but will add actual exercise cals burned -- as closely as I can estimate-- back on these days only). 100 or more g. protein, carb target 150.
2300-2500 cals Friday*

*Friday-Sunday can be interchanged depending on what's going on that week (except the DD has to be on either Sat or Sun)

Exercise will be only easy walking or short HIIT session on DDs, 2-3 days weight lifting on UDs, one long walk on a UD, and possibly one aerobics class a week on a UD.

Going to try to stick with this for one whole month, with one exception: if I find out from my RMR test on 4/14 that I'm burning a lot fewer calories at rest than I "should" be according to the calculators, I'll adjust calories for that information. Taking a 1-2 week maintenance break in 10-12 weeks.

Planning on taking measurements and photos once a month also, and weighing weekly on Friday morning.

Hoping for slow, steady, healthy, LBM and metabolism-saving, lifestyle-friendly, and fairly painless losses.

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Old 03-29-2014, 01:45 PM   #202
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Planning on taking measurements and photos once a month also, and weighing weekly on Friday morning.

Hoping for slow, steady, healthy, LBM and metabolism-saving, lifestyle-friendly, and fairly painless losses.
Looks like a good plan I hope that "lifestyle-friendly" automatically incorporates joy however it comes to you
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Old 03-29-2014, 01:47 PM   #203
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I have been really consuming and digesting the info on the Eat More 2 Weigh Less site and YouTube videos. Very interesting, and kinda scary.
I like the site, too. Good luck with the remainder of March and the preparation for your April 1 JUDDD re-start.
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Old 03-29-2014, 02:07 PM   #204
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Looks like a good plan I hope that "lifestyle-friendly" automatically incorporates joy however it comes to you
Thanks, SS! I hope so. I think that stressing over my lack of results (with high expectations and effort) probably raised cortisol in and of itself! Planning for slow and looking at it as a positive will probably help in that area.

also: went to the Dr. and thyroid was fine (at least the basic test, I doubt I could have talked her into the ones Dawn recommends) .

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Old 03-29-2014, 02:37 PM   #205
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I wonder how you get those other thyroid tests done? My doctor did not recommend it and said it would be costly. I know there is something going on with me, with the alopecia, moods, slow losses...supposedly my regular thyroid test was so middle range/normal that he didn't feel any additional tests would be worth the cost.
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Old 03-29-2014, 02:43 PM   #206
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I asked for them through my GP. He ordered them. Then, when I went to my Endo, I asked for them again. No problem. If you're insured, your insurance should cover them. If not, on the thyroid board here at LCF, there has been mention several times about a place you can get them done yourself relatively inexpensively. I don't remember what lab it is. I'll see if I can find that information.

Okay, here's a link to the different tests and a description of what they mean: Thyroid Tests

Here's one with info on ordering your own tests: Discount lab tests

Healthcheckusa is the lab I was thinking about.

Last edited by KeirasMom; 03-29-2014 at 02:50 PM..
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Old 03-29-2014, 02:51 PM   #207
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I'm insured, but at the minimum and I have to pay 100% till I meet the $500.00 deductible, then 20% plus a co-pay. I have never met my deductible but once because of a hospitalization, which I guess is good, but I always forgo any additional costs where I can. I still want to have them done though, so I'm going to look into it.
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Old 03-29-2014, 02:52 PM   #208
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I may have been editing with links when you posted, so just wanted to let you know to check out the links I added.
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Old 03-30-2014, 04:53 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calichris View Post
You've worked so hard, I think it would be a little scary, but I really think you could! Especially with your increased exercise. You could do your workouts on up days, and add gradually (as SlowSure mentioned) a bit of calories in small increments. You can really stretch your metabolism this way.

I learned a whole new concept from the Eat More to Weigh Less site (they also have You Tube videos). I'm too scared to do their method, but I'm taking a bit from it. They would suggest that a person who has done low cal dieting for a long time reset their metabolism by eating their maintenance calories (or work up to that) until their weight stabilizes there, which could involve gaining, and might take 6-8 weeks or even more. Some people actually start losing when they raise their calories, though. Then, cut only 15% from that. Every 6-12 weeks, you go back to maintenance calories for a short period (they highly suggest weight lifting and HIIT also). I am trying to be more relaxed, but I don't think I have quite that much patience ... but it seems to really work to allow people to lose and keep their metabolisms up as high as possible. It seems to go with SlowSure's reverse dieting idea, too. Interesting stuff.
Chris,
THANKS for this. I've been poring over their stuff and I like it, even though it sounds scary.
It's ringing lots and lots of bells for me re: loss of muscle mass, my inability to restrict on UDs, the way I hit a wall once in a while and cannot continue rotations, my sense that I'm eating far less than I used to and growing more muffin-y as I go along, even when my overall size is diminishing.
I'm going to jump in to this for eight weeks.
Will report back if anyone's interested.
Yikes.
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Old 03-30-2014, 06:12 PM   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyjoy View Post
Chris,
THANKS for this. I've been poring over their stuff and I like it, even though it sounds scary.
It's ringing lots and lots of bells for me re: loss of muscle mass, my inability to restrict on UDs, the way I hit a wall once in a while and cannot continue rotations, my sense that I'm eating far less than I used to and growing more muffin-y as I go along, even when my overall size is diminishing.
I'm going to jump in to this for eight weeks.
Will report back if anyone's interested.
Yikes.
I am interested! And joining you in trying something a bit different. Ooooh scary....and exciting!
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