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Old 03-11-2014, 05:15 AM   #211
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I think sarcopenia is too tricky to discuss in a Chat/What's Happening Now thread

At some point I might start a specific thread on the topic or just post on my personal body composition thread.

I do want to state, quite firmly, that women in the US have a high risk for sarcopenia and physical disabilities/metabolic diseases that tend to accompany it. I would strongly recommend that you have conversations about sarcopenia with your HCPs when next you have a routine appointment.
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Old 03-11-2014, 05:18 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly View Post
Another virtually sleepless night after a DD.
I'm tempted to say that there are now so many reports of this from various JUDDD BUDDDs that we need a dedicated 'sleep' thread to discuss this.

However, Carly, you know what I'm going to mention now.

I wonder if it's way past time that you reconsidered the advice of your HCP in re: a sleep study. (I can't possibly know if you have a particular horror of doing this that you're not comfortable expressing - if so, this prompt is horribly intrusive and I apologise.)
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Old 03-11-2014, 05:31 AM   #213
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Slow Sure-
I am 72 and hypothyroid--which is an additional risk factor for osteoporosis. You refer to 'sarcopenia,' and that's not a term regularly used here in the U.S. because our medical community uses it to refer to the 'normal' bone/muscle loss that occurs with aging. That is, nothing pathological. We use the term osteoporosis to refer to levels of bone loss that put a person at risk.

However, because of my hypothyroid risk, my endo orders regular bone scans, and although I show minor bone loss, it doesn't even come close to osteoporosis. He attributes it to aging and sees no issues for me. I do resistance exercise to help limit bone/muscle loss, mainly because my arthritis doesn't permit me to do regular weight-bearing exercise.

Throughout my weight loss, I emphasized adequate protein, and I believe that's what's helped me most.

Seabreeze- This thread is so busy that I missed your query about how I get to 70g of protein on an UD. Actually, that's easy for me. I typically have a tuna or salmon salad for breakfast with 6 oz of fish and approx. 32g of protein. Later in the day, I'll have a bison burger (4 oz) for another 30g of protein. I also have egg white 'omelets' (microwave in a mug) for an additional 10-20g of protein (depending on my appetite).

On a DD, I typically would have about 50g of protein with my 'fish' breakfast (200 cal) and two of my egg white omelets (100 cal).
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Old 03-11-2014, 05:53 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Planelman View Post
Slow - I know you didn't give specific details, ...it might be a good time to stop for a bit, and concentrate on daily nutrition to get the building blocks you need to gain some muscle mass. And then add or increase resistance training to both build muscle mass and increase bone density.

I don't want to bash JUDDD and I hope no one takes it as a bash, but I don't think there is enough emphasis on food quality and nutrients when you are limited to eating every other day. ...

JUDDD definitely works to lose weight, but what weight? We want fat loss, not muscle loss...

I hope I don't upset anyone with my thoughts. I'm just concerned that while this WOE can result in weight loss and other fasting benefits it may on the surface neglect nutrition for those benefits. And if the books don't promote a focus on nutrition then we should.
Overall, Mike, I couldn't agree with you more. I understand the marketing drive behind the promotion of Dr Varady's recent book as 'fast on one day, eat what you like on the next' but I've thought for some time that that advice is only relevant to quite small demographics. It's why I think it unfortunate that Dr Johnson has retreated from suggesting some UD guidelines in his recent revision.

I don't think we do emphasise appropriate nutrition enough, given the relative restriction in kcal intake and the sheer difficulty of identifying sufficient nutrient-dense foods, particularly if you need them to fit within the macros of another plan (such as the migraine management protocol that I follow).

I've hesitated to say the following because I do appreciate people's kind thoughts and the helpfulness behind the suggestions.

From my knowledge and current review of the clinical literature, it's generally implausible for post-menopausal women to add substantial amounts of muscle mass: we do well to maintain muscle mass rather than inexorably lose it, year on year, according to conventional wisdom.

Some of you will be familiar with Krista Scott-Dixon of Stumptuous/Precision Nutrition. She's been quite open about the over-estimation of how easy it is for women to gain muscle mass:
Quote:
Scott-Dixon has been training for 15 years and has gained only about 5lb of muscle. But it's enough to make a huge difference: "When you do your first pull-up, or push-up, it's an incredible feeling of accomplishment.
I should mention that she did this when she was a relatively young woman and that's she's been struggling since she underwent a premature menopause. Yes, it is possible for younger women to add muscle and I would strongly suggest that women here might consider this.

Beyond that, I know that there are some clinical trials that report impressive-sounding results for elderly people with sarcopenia who undertake resistance training. However, by and large, the quality of some of those trials is woeful to the point where I'm angry that they ever slipped past a journal referee and made it to publication.

Plus, those trials intentionally and understandably select people from the biggest, potentially costliest group (in health terms). The malnourished, very thin, deconditioned, smoker who is socially isolated or the obese, metabolically-disordered, deconditioned, elderly person who has difficulty living independently. They can double their apparent strength because they started out with genuine difficulty brushing their teeth or holding a tea-cup so their gains look astonishing.

But...I'm not them. I'm already active with (presumably) excellent muscle quality considering how little muscle mass I have. It's a similar phenomenon to weight-training who make amazing strength gains in the first year of their training but that rate of progress drops off markedly in the following years.

I know some of the trials also report 'gains' in muscle mass. By and large, these are small and there are more obvious sources of explanation for the increase in size than an increase in the size and number of muscle fibres. Eg, for the malnourished participants, receiving protein supplements and exercising, and actually eating sufficient kcals in a day can add glycogen and water to the muscle tissue - they will seem bigger, but it's not actually new muscle. They may be able to lift a little more: this is probably a desirable increase in muscle quality (what you can do with the muscle) rather than a feature of the slightly greater muscle mass.

This has turned into another essay and the March Chat thread is no place for a discussion of muscle physiology. Apologies.
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Old 03-11-2014, 05:54 AM   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSure View Post
I'm tempted to say that there are now so many reports of this from various JUDDD BUDDDs that we need a dedicated 'sleep' thread to discuss this.

However, Carly, you know what I'm going to mention now.

I wonder if it's way past time that you reconsidered the advice of your HCP in re: a sleep study. (I can't possibly know if you have a particular horror of doing this that you're not comfortable expressing - if so, this prompt is horribly intrusive and I apologise.)
I am a bit terrified to have the sleep study- thus the reason I have disregarded my MD's urging for the last 16 years. I know it's nothing to fear, but when you have all kinds of sleep issues it's scarier. I think some of my medication- particularly the Fentynal patch is also wrecking havoc. I have a paradoxical effect to opiates/ opiods- in that they make me hyper and every third day when I switch my patch my sleep is horrendous. This is terrible when coinciding with a DD. I'm not entirely wanting to switch pain medications since of everything I've been on since 2005 the patch is by far the best for my pain and lack of needing to take a pill every 4 hours.
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Old 03-11-2014, 07:31 AM   #216
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Carly have you tried subliminal/relaxation for deep sleep?
You can buy them on amazon as MP3 tracks, individually, for less than $1 each and try them.
When we were posting about headache relief, I remembered I had these and I've been listening to them nightly and I have been sleeping better and not waking up with headaches.
It may not work the same for you, but it's a small $$ investment to try it
My favorites are:
"Relax, Subliminal Messages in Music (Chakra Balancing Sound Therapy)"
"Sleep Deepener Subliminal - Subliminal Hypnosis "

For headaches:
"Migrain Headache Relief (Delta 2.5hz) by BrainMindMedia"

I don't like guided meditation ones because the person talks and it disturbs me for some reason. I just like the sound therapy ones with subliminal relaxation.
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Old 03-11-2014, 09:23 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo41 View Post
Slow Sure-


Throughout my weight loss, I emphasized adequate protein, and I believe that's what's helped me most.

Seabreeze- This thread is so busy that I missed your query about how I get to 70g of protein on an UD. Actually, that's easy for me. I typically have a tuna or salmon salad for breakfast with 6 oz of fish and approx. 32g of protein. Later in the day, I'll have a bison burger (4 oz) for another 30g of protein. I also have egg white 'omelets' (microwave in a mug) for an additional 10-20g of protein (depending on my appetite).

On a DD, I typically would have about 50g of protein with my 'fish' breakfast (200 cal) and two of my egg white omelets (100 cal).
Leo, I'm grateful for this reminder.
Thanks for posting.
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Old 03-11-2014, 03:53 PM   #218
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Wow! Ok, I think I'm pretty caught up.

to Slow. I feel confident you've got your head wrapped (or wrapping) around this issue and will be able to manage if not vanquish it

to Leo! So happy to see you!

Carly-- I agree with the sleep study. I wonder if DW could go with you, would that help? Re: pain management, do you see a specialist for that? maybe they (or someone) could do a holistic file review and take everything into account and at least advise you that way?

Dawn-- awesome! I'll try to record it!

I agree-- not that I watch daytime gameshows often, but what I've seen of Drew on the PiR, it's not got the vibe of the old school show. Ah well, for new folks, this is what they know and I'm sure they like it fine.

Me-- I think the glucosamine/chondroitin is working? it's only been a week, but I'm less creaky in the knees (both) and especially the one that was giving me some trouble.
I still have some hip pain, but it's lessening also. I am becoming more aware I have some bad sitting habits-- guess working from the couch will do that

I'm enjoying NOT traveling. I finally feel in control of my schedule and eating and exercising.
I do have another week-long workshop at the end of the month, so I need to get my head wrapped around that (i.e. free food syndrome, as well as DD in a room with free-food, then going out with colleagues on the night of a DD spent in a room with free food...)
sigh.

s.
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Old 03-11-2014, 04:03 PM   #219
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Soren, I swear by Glucosamine and Chondroitin. It has changed my life. I take 4,500 Gluc 400 C and 500 MSM.
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Old 03-11-2014, 04:12 PM   #220
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Good to know Cindy. I just started-- nothing special, just the supermarket/drugstore variety.
Mine says there are:
Glucosamine Sulfate 500 mg (Aspergillus niger chitin)
Chondroitin sulfate (bovine cartilage) 400 mg;
Methyl sulfonylmethane (MSM) 400 mg.

I'm supposed to take 3x a day, with meals. I do notice a bit of nausea and/or acid reflux, but the benefit is worth suffering through (and managing with different foods etc).

I'll see how I do for a few more weeks, and maybe look at other brands/higher doses or separate pills if need be.

I know I gave a similar powder to Haka, and the change in him was very noticeable-- that's actually what got me thinking about it when I started cracking and creaking more, having started rowing.

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Old 03-11-2014, 05:29 PM   #221
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Slow,

Kissa & Soren, are the glucosamine & chondroitin pills huge? I just can't do huge pills but doc has me going in for an MRI on my "bad" knee. I probably should try the supps. (darn, should have asked him about it yesterday when I was in!)

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Old 03-11-2014, 05:37 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dottie View Post
Carly have you tried subliminal/relaxation for deep sleep?
You can buy them on amazon as MP3 tracks, individually, for less than $1 each and try them.
When we were posting about headache relief, I remembered I had these and I've been listening to them nightly and I have been sleeping better and not waking up with headaches.
It may not work the same for you, but it's a small $$ investment to try it
My favorites are:
"Relax, Subliminal Messages in Music (Chakra Balancing Sound Therapy)"
"Sleep Deepener Subliminal - Subliminal Hypnosis "

For headaches:
"Migrain Headache Relief (Delta 2.5hz) by BrainMindMedia"

I don't like guided meditation ones because the person talks and it disturbs me for some reason. I just like the sound therapy ones with subliminal relaxation.
I look into those Dottie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sorenkkg View Post
Wow! Ok, I think I'm pretty caught up.

to Slow. I feel confident you've got your head wrapped (or wrapping) around this issue and will be able to manage if not vanquish it

to Leo! So happy to see you!

Carly-- I agree with the sleep study. I wonder if DW could go with you, would that help? Re: pain management, do you see a specialist for that? maybe they (or someone) could do a holistic file review and take everything into account and at least advise you that
s.
I would be less scared if DW could come. I kind of doubt it, but I could ask. I go to a pain management specialist, but am looking to change. Remember our car accident last year? He said he would charge my no fault for the April visit, but ended up billing my no fault and my health insurance till October!!! That is total insurance fraud and now I don't trust him at all.
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Old 03-11-2014, 07:39 PM   #223
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Totally report him for that.
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Old 03-12-2014, 12:39 AM   #224
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Home & playing catch up

Hello crew,
We're finally home from our 2 week whirlwind vacation, and now I'm having to work each day to cover for my colleague who is on vacation. Yes, I realize there are folks out there who hold down a full time job, and kudos to them, but I do not so I'm feeling a little sorry for my self that I have to work 5 days in a row this week.
Anyhow, been trying to catch up but it will likely take me a few days. I'm off to the gym in the morning so I need to shut it down but wanted to pop in and say hello before heading to sleep!
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Old 03-12-2014, 02:56 AM   #225
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back Yennie, you were missed! Hope you had a great vacation!
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Old 03-12-2014, 04:37 AM   #226
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So much good discussion here - hard to comment on everything, for sure.

My DH takes glucosamine & chondroitin pills and his knee pain has all but disappeared. And yes, Flutter - the pills are BIG.

Leo - very interesting about the amount of protein you take - and your results. I'm 62 - also a "senior" and also have not counted my protein intake - but will pay more attention just to see where the numbers fall.

Yam - I hope you and DH feel better soon. How awful with both of you under the weather.

My being home every day (recently retired) is slowly becoming a reality. I am finding a routine - I think of a million things to do and go from project to project in a day. I finally made a list - just as I use to do at work and then check off as I accomplish WHOLE tasks.

I am still in awe of JUDDD's ability to (for me) quickly see vacation pounds disappear. And am so happy the transition was an easy one back to EOD.
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:43 AM   #227
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I have to agree with Goner, Flutter the pills are huge. I believe there are liquid option around too. But I could not give this up now. I would grind them into my food if necessary.

Good to have you back Jen.
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Old 03-12-2014, 11:57 AM   #228
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Yennie: Welcome back!

Goner: I know what you mean about going from project to project. I am also a list maker and always have been. Lists and checking things off give a real sense of accomplishment. So glad you are loving JUDDD. That's one of the best effects, the ability to get the vacay weight back off quickly.

Leo: Thanks so much for sharing your protein numbers. I remember reading that people should take their "ideal" or "goal" weight, divide it in half, and that's the number of grams of protein we should aim for in a day. With that in mind and after reading Mike's posts, I was thinking of starting to at least aim for 75 grams of protein on UDs. I'm not there yet. Yesterday's UD I was at 63 but at least I'm counting. Most DDs lately I'm getting 20 to 30. I should try to up that too. Thanks again! You are a real inspiration.
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Old 03-12-2014, 12:04 PM   #229
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DH started feeling a lot better yesterday and I'm relieved about that. I had another night of coughing (which kept waking me up) and sore throat.

This morning I've been sneezing incessantly which is really annoying. It's super windy outside, so I wonder if it's more about the wind than it is about my cold/virus.

Anyway, I'm not feeling totally miserable any more and that's good.

The other good thing is that I have not had to let this sickness interfere with my rotations and I've been doing really good.

Yesterday I weighed after a DD and hit -11.8 (almost 12 pounds down. Almost!!) since my re-start January 1st. This morning after a very filling and nutritious UD, I was surprised that it was exactly the same, -11.8. Cool. That's a motivation to keep on keeping on and I'm going to have a fabulous DD today.

Thanks to all you super terrific JBs for your concern for me and DH and this long, nasty virus that I hope is being evicted from our house soon!!!
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:27 PM   #230
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Okay, finally caught up but too tired to comment. Its all floating around in my head. So to those who need them, and I'm working on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeirasMom View Post
TMI alert and a vent:

Today is day 15 of tom. I'm soooo over it! I got the Mirena on 2/7. I started right on time, but had a couple of days of spotting and really bad cramps, then had my normal period for my normal 7 days, but have been having spotting ever since. I thought it was over yesterday, but had cramps again last night, and then nothing today until about a half hour ago. That rat TOM is still sticking around. I'm getting quite moody, but I think it's just because I'm ticked, not because I'm hormonal.

I have an appointment on Friday (follow up for the Mirena placement) and you can guarantee I'll be giving the nurse practitioner an earful!

Okay, that has nothing to do with anything, but I just had to get it off my chest.
Totally happened to me too. I think I bled for 30+ days when I first got it. Enough so that Miss. Never Goes To The Doctor here called the Doctor. Was told its a very common side effect and to ride it out. Just when I was about to say "screw this, I'm yanking it out myself" it stopped and can I say I'm now totally in love with the thing? Plan to get another in 1.5 years when this one gives up the ghost.

So, I guess I'm saying - yep, BTDT, ride it out because it should stop and then its so worth it!

And majorly TMI...
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Old 03-12-2014, 11:44 PM   #231
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Soren, I swear by Glucosamine and Chondroitin. It has changed my life. I take 4,500 Gluc 400 C and 500 MSM.
Just got these today and as I get twinges in the hinges (knees, mostly), now and then!
Thank you for the recommendations!

Melinda Mine are 1500/1500 mg, not huge at all! got them from Trader Joe's. Half the size of multi-vitamin or Calcium, twice the size of Tylenol caplets!
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Old 03-13-2014, 04:36 AM   #232
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Hi All! Much to catch up on and whew that was a lot. So much going on around the board. Miss you guys!

I've ben doing 5:2 for the past two weeks and it's been nice. I just needed a little break physically and mentally. It's been a year now and I was having a serious case of diet fatigue and life stress. I start back with rotations next week.
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Old 03-13-2014, 04:55 AM   #233
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Goner: I know what you mean about going from project to project. I am also a list maker and always have been. Lists and checking things off give a real sense of accomplishment. So glad you are loving JUDDD. That's one of the best effects, the ability to get the vacay weight back off quickly.

Leo: Thanks so much for sharing your protein numbers. I remember reading that people should take their "ideal" or "goal" weight, divide it in half, and that's the number of grams of protein we should aim for in a day. With that in mind and after reading Mike's posts, I was thinking of starting to at least aim for 75 grams of protein on UDs. I'm not there yet. Yesterday's UD I was at 63 but at least I'm counting. Most DDs lately I'm getting 20 to 30. I should try to up that too. Thanks again! You are a real inspiration.
I need to start counting my protein. That's a good figure to strivefor - half of goal weight. Have no idea where I would fall currently... MUST start a list for that! LOL

Off to accomplish today's to do list - It's HUGE!

And glad you are feeling better YAM. How's DH?
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Old 03-13-2014, 05:27 AM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo41 View Post
You refer to 'sarcopenia,' and that's not a term regularly used here in the U.S. because our medical community uses it to refer to the 'normal' bone/muscle loss that occurs with aging. That is, nothing pathological.
I'm a tad surprised at this as the classic doom and gloom papers about the societal impacts and huge costs associated with sarcopenia are from the US. (I'll put the references for this into my write-up, whenever I do it rather than put them in the chat thread.)

In Europe/UK, sarcopenia is distinguished from bone loss as although 50% of older people with osteoporosis have sarcopenia, people with sarcopenia don't necessarily have osteoporosis or even osteopenia (the same is true of Nordic-Scandinavian populations).

I should say, however, that you have categories of sarcopenia in the US (Class I and II) and thus, you ostensibly have more people with the condition than we do in Europe/UK. (Unfortunately, I have Class II by the US categorisation.)
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Old 03-13-2014, 06:48 AM   #235
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Okay, finally caught up but too tired to comment. Its all floating around in my head. So to those who need them, and I'm working on it.



Totally happened to me too. I think I bled for 30+ days when I first got it. Enough so that Miss. Never Goes To The Doctor here called the Doctor. Was told its a very common side effect and to ride it out. Just when I was about to say "screw this, I'm yanking it out myself" it stopped and can I say I'm now totally in love with the thing? Plan to get another in 1.5 years when this one gives up the ghost.

So, I guess I'm saying - yep, BTDT, ride it out because it should stop and then its so worth it!

And majorly TMI...
Glad to hear it, and thank you for your input. I think I'm on day 22 right now, though I've lost count. When I got it last time, it was quite soon after Keira was born, so my cycle hadn't regulated anyway. I don't remember it this bad, but I may have shoved the memory to the far recesses of my brain. I didn't get mine removed at 5 years (insurance issues) and had it for nearly 7 years total, and didn't have ANY sign of TOM almost that whole time. I'm sure looking forward to that again!
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Old 03-13-2014, 07:19 AM   #236
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Slow Sure-
I think I was confused because I assumed you were referring to both muscle and bone loss. Both are concerns for me at my age (72), but doctors mainly refer to the dangers of osteoporosis.

However, I'm also confused by your doctor's advice to 'lose weight' (especially at your size!). If anything, muscle loss is more of a danger with weight loss.
The standard recommendations here for sarcopenia are resistance exercise (which I do) and, if needed, hormone treatment.

My own bone loss has been minimal, but my endo monitors me regularly.
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Old 03-13-2014, 07:57 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by LiLi914 View Post
Hi All! Much to catch up on and whew that was a lot. So much going on around the board. Miss you guys!

I've ben doing 5:2 for the past two weeks and it's been nice. I just needed a little break physically and mentally. It's been a year now and I was having a serious case of diet fatigue and life stress. I start back with rotations next week.
Lisa have you found you continue losing on 5:2? I know a lot of people use it as maintenance, but others still seem to lose on it.
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Old 03-13-2014, 08:58 AM   #238
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SlowSure (and any other wise and knowledgeable people), I've kept wondering about post-menopausal women struggling to increase muscle mass and I'm a bit confused.

My friend put on loads of weight in her late 50s. She has an addictive personality and fell totally in love with the Wii Fit. She exercised with it excessively for months.
She lost no fat - that was plainly evident. But she obviously gained muscles - they were like rock!
She lost no weight till she abandoned her other addiction - to pies and chunky fries! - and started counting calories.
So, was she an exception?

When I intermittently get round to leaving my sofa and doing some yoga, I become more toned, isn't that through increasing muscle?

SlowSure, if the answer is going to take up loads of your time, please just say so, I'm just curious. As a couch potato, I know little about muscles but it sounds as if I might need to get educated.
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Old 03-13-2014, 09:37 AM   #239
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I've been away for a bit (Palm Springs Weekend with old friends!) so I am just catching up.

Yam-Yam, I hope both you and your honey are feeling better.

SlowSure, that's sounds worrying, but don't forget how you have improved your health over the last year. This test just shows you where you will next be focusing your considerable powers.

Protein- Coming to this board from a low-carb perspective, I have sometimes been kind of surprised with how high-carb(and usually, low-protein) some people's Up Days can be. I love my fat and protein. I usually get 100-150g of protein on my Up Days, and if I am eating on my Down Days, there's usually a good whack of protein involved. I do think that sometimes the thrill of 'eating what you want' and having it work vis-a-vis weight loss blinds us to nutritional concerns.

But it is a process. Having great discussions like this offers another opportunity for any of us to say, 'you know what, I'm going to improve my diet by doing X'.

And since this is 'Daily Chat'...I am going to the dollar theater today to see 'The Secret Life of Walter Mitty.'
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Old 03-13-2014, 09:51 AM   #240
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And since this is 'Daily Chat'...I am going to the dollar theater today to see 'The Secret Life of Walter Mitty.'
Oooo, let us know how it is, Sirt!
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