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Old 03-07-2014, 07:24 PM   #151
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Yam, blessed thoughts are on the way darling! Don't worry, he's going to be alright! There are quite a few people I know who are very much under the weather in spite of the flu shots. Unfortunately, we are at an age where negative thoughts come first and imagination runs wild in the wrong direction. So trust in Him and his benevolence!

Quite warm here, went out for a walk (shorter one) and came back "glowing". Had facial done, nice bit of pampering. Going to a party tomorrow evening, so up goes the DD! Looking forward to the fun but dreading the food temptations. Then there is a big engagement party next week at the country club, more food and drink! Just when I thought I was re-establishing the rotations! But "girl's got to have fun" !
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Old 03-08-2014, 03:27 AM   #152
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Yam - how is your DH today? So sorry he is under the weather. I hope your wood delivery goes well. We too are in need of more wood for the stove, such a cold winter here, we used way more than usual.

I had a good DD yesterday - ate a bit more than I had planned, but calories were under 400 - so easing back in. A nice 2 pound drop - bloat I'm sure - is so encouraging.

Today we might hit 50 degrees here - I MUST get outside. Missing the AZ warmth, have to settle for NJs.
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:36 AM   #153
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I bought the pumpkin bread and cinnamon bagels from the great low carb bakery since DW has diabetes and can't leave bread and bagels alone. I must admit they are pretty darn good and I'm not even low carb. Look, you know it's not totally normal bread, but it's awfully tasty and the calories are not bad. 160 for a whole bagel that is a "real" bagel size (insert large and remember I'm from NY). Not a tiny bagel like you get in the frozen section of the grocery store.
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:59 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSure View Post
I shall write this up when my head is more in the game but I had a DXA scan while I was away. It will take a while for me to process the information and to talk to people about it but it was a mixed bag. My body composition is better than indicated by the BodPod last year (huzzah - but not enough to throw a party about). But...my skeletal muscle mass is so scant that I already meet the definition for sarcopenia at what seems like 30 years ahead of schedule. There's also some indication that although my overall bone mineral density is OK there are some areas where it isn't - to the point where there is marked erosion in my lower back (which may account for some of the pain).

Anyhow - mixed news, a tad fraught. I don't think I'll be able to discuss the scan in much detail for a few days as I have an awful lot to think through.
Slow - I know you didn't give specific details, but you indicated that your body composition is better than the bodpod indicated so that should be a big plus. Means you have less distance to cross to get to a level you are comfortable with. I'm not sure if you still do rotations or not, but if you do, it might be a good time to stop for a bit, and concentrate on daily nutrition to get the building blocks you need to gain some muscle mass. And then add or increase resistance training to both build muscle mass and increase bone density.

I don't want to bash JUDDD and I hope no one takes it as a bash, but I don't think there is enough emphasis on food quality and nutrients when you are limited to eating every other day. I've held off on saying anything because I like this community and the group support which is awesome, but there seems to be to much focus on eating what you want, on UD's as long as it fits into you UD allowance, and not enough focus on what you did not get yesterday that you need to prioritize that you get today. When I did JUDDD EOD I was tracking everything and it was very apparent after the first month that my average protein was nowhere near where it needed to be to provide the building blocks I needed to build muscle while losing fat and during that time it was very noticeable that I was not making progress in the gym and I'm pretty sure I lost some muscle mass. After that I upped my calorie limits overall and tried to concentrate first on protein on DD's and then exceeded required protein on UD's and things definitely turned around at that point and I was able to perform better and increase my weight training. Was it the calories or the protein? I'm not sure but if you are going to be active, you need both. If you're not active then it is even more important to get enough protein to protect the muscle you have. I don't know all the metabolic processes involved but if you don't get enough protein and calories overall your body will break down your muscle and fat, to supplement.

JUDDD definitely works to lose weight, but what weight? We want fat loss, not muscle loss. I haven't read any of the books, so I don't know if any of the authors address this specifically. If not then it is a big gap. JUDDD for weight loss should concentrate first on food quality, protein minimums for DD's and UD's and then those numbers along with your weight and age and height into the calculator to give you both your UD/DD calories and minimum macro targets for each day. If that means higher DD's then so be it, that is what you need.

I hope I don't upset anyone with my thoughts. I'm just concerned that while this WOE can result in weight loss and other fasting benefits it may on the surface neglect nutrition for those benefits. And if the books don't promote a focus on nutrition then we should.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:14 AM   #155
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PM,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Protein is pretty expensive ~ calorie-wise. So I see your point.
Being older and mostly sedentary except for walks w/ my pooch pal, I shall give this some serious thought.
It will take some research for me to find good sources of protein that won't deplete my calorie allowances.
I've always done LC whenever I dieted for any length of time so I've not given this much attention.
So hard to find a happy medium. At least for me.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:18 AM   #156
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Calorie wise protein and carbs are the same, so I'm basically saying we should be filling our UD's and DD's first with protein instead of carbs to get to a minimum level needed to maintain LBM and for those that need to increase muscle.

And in order to achieve that minimum level your DD is 600 calories instead of 400 and your UD is 1800 calories instead of 1600 then that is what you need.

Last edited by Planelman; 03-08-2014 at 06:23 AM..
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Old 03-08-2014, 07:16 AM   #157
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Planelman Thank you for the very interesting reading. I am a 64 year old lady who sits all day driving a bus. I do not exercise much. They say my numbers should be 1554 up and 311 down. I have lost a lot of muscle mass since losing on JUDDD. Can you tell me what I should move the numbers to like you just did with Patkid. I have been wondering how to get this mass back so if I understand you correctly we have to bring the protin back in and lower the carbs. Is that right.
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Old 03-08-2014, 07:39 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Planelman View Post
Calorie wise protein and carbs are the same, so I'm basically saying we should be filling our UD's and DD's first with protein instead of carbs to get to a minimum level needed to maintain LBM and for those that need to increase muscle.

And in order to achieve that minimum level your DD is 600 calories instead of 400 and your UD is 1800 calories instead of 1600 then that is what you need.
Well, I think what I was trying to say is that 3oz of sirloin does not fill me up like 3 oz of potato.
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Old 03-08-2014, 07:41 AM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSure View Post
I can't find it but in a nutshell, last year I mentioned that DH was sick of working as a contractor and we were thrilled when he was offered a permanent post at his current company.

It was a phenomenal amount of work that disrupted us for months. DH received a lot of personal thanks and commendations from people whose opinion he respects but it's so good to have something as tangible as a bonus. And it's brought the memory of all of that back for him. I'm so proud of him.
So happy to hear this, awesome for your DH, slow!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoCarbGal View Post
Gosh, so much going on around here! Rain, snow and potholes, pickle recipes, sleep disruptions, infections and food intolerances. I have no hope of commenting to everyone's posts at this point, so:

Guys, I am just flat out struggling right now. I think I have a pretty major case of diet fatigue, and I'm just battling with DDs and sugar cravings lately. It all started with TOM and I thought after that was over I'd be able to get it back together, but the thought of a DD just stresses me out right now.

So today I'm having an "anything goes" day, and tomorrow I'm going to start straight Atkins for a week or two. Right now I just feel like I want/need more volume every day. I may try to eat less EOD if it feels okay, but if not I'm going to just eat super low carb and plenty of fat. I want to kick these sugar cravings once and for all! And get the fat loss going again.

I have a family celebration the 20th and 21st, and want to be able to enjoy it to the fullest, so I'll try to stick with this until then, and then afterwards my plan is to return to JUDDD. I'm pretty sure by then I'll be craving it, and hopefully will have shaken up my metabolism enough to get the losses moving again.

Like Katie, I'll still be hanging around here because you guys' support has become crucial for me, and I know you'll support me during my "JUDDD break".
You can't go ANYWHERE! I am sorry you're feeling that dreaded diet fatigue, but girl, your accomplishments are AMAZING! If doing atkins for a bit works, good for you! Juddd isn't going anywhere, and you have a PLAN, so it's not like you're throwing in the towel. (boy have I done THAT when diet fatigue hit!) You'll do great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
I don't have the energy to respond to everyone, but love reading your posts. I do want to say congrats to DH, Slow.

I am trying to work on some things not diet related, and also not ruin my diet lol. I am so exhausted today and I'm glad it's a UD, although yesterday was more of a MD than a DD. Wouldn't it be nice if we could diet in a vacuum, where nothing else affected our efforts?
You know I wuvs ya girl! Things are going to work out just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly View Post
Carol . I hope your LC beak is just the shake up you need.

SS- congrats to DH.

I had a terrible night last night regarding almost no sleep- ugh. I'm having more and more issues on DD nights.

I'm getting seriously worried and just don't know what is going on 2 yeas into this.
I'm so sorry sleep is more problematic all of a sudden. Is anything different going on in your life that could be wreaking havoc? Work has settled down some, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flossyliz View Post
Thank you for your lovely messages of condolence and sorry I couldn't reply earlier.
I've loads of catching up to do but it's good to be back. I've missed the JBs!

My computer was completely trashed and I've been slowly breaking in my new one while rapidly consuming more wine and chocolate (not together!) than fits with weight loss - or maintainance!

On Monday morning, I had an alarmingly double chin, courtesy of salty crisps (chips) enjoyed the evening before.
The scales said "That's enough!!!
And I agreed.
The DD overnight loss of 2.5lbs confirmed that I should be grateful to the crisps for pointing me back in the right direction
and things are looking very encouraging after yesterday's UD.

My last post was on January 27 and I said I expected to have 3 or 4 pounds to lose.
All I have to say now is

We're going away at the end of the month and I don't usually JUDDD when on holiday, so I have only a couple of weeks to re-establish some good habits.
Thank goodness JUDDD is so flexible!
You crack me up! I love your perspective. Ooooh, and a holiday to look forward to! Color me completely jealous!! Good for you!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patkid View Post
Something wonderful happened today.
I jumped right on here cuz I have no one else to scream about it with!
I've never done the measurement thing when I started a diet. Ever.
I always just measured via scale.
Since my great losses during the first 3-4 weeks I've been a bit static weightwise.
Not getting bummed, just hoping for a drop and doing rotations faithfully.
WELL
After my shower today I just decided on the spur of the moment to try on some favorite jeans from yesteryear. I only have a few size 16 cuz I jumped so fast to 18s. I started JUDDD right at the last possible moment before having to go up yet another size and 20 Tall is a very hard size to find.
I am so sick of my worn out and shapeless 18s. I've worn them for about 5-6 years for the most part. (Read sweats)
I went to my stack of size 16 pants. I didn't choose the largest fitting 16, I went for my favorite pair of size 16 jeans.
ooooo mmmmmmmmm geeeeeeee
They fit.
They fit comfortably.
They look nicely.
I was excited a couple weeks ago when I could get into my largest fitting stretchy 16 pants but the excitement this time is exponential!
I am losing inches.
I really am.
I wish I would have measured.
Dear Lord, there really is a chance that I may once again fit into my 14s.
I know that sounds like big clothes to most of you but size 14 is little for me as I am 5'10" and generally a pretty large person.
I am so happy that I am giddy. PJ is looking at me weirdly but I can't help but dance and hop and sing.
W00T

(happy tears) I am elated for you!!!! YES, you will be in those 14s...and probably below. You got this!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeirasMom View Post
TMI alert and a vent:

Today is day 15 of tom. I'm soooo over it! I got the Mirena on 2/7. I started right on time, but had a couple of days of spotting and really bad cramps, then had my normal period for my normal 7 days, but have been having spotting ever since. I thought it was over yesterday, but had cramps again last night, and then nothing today until about a half hour ago. That rat TOM is still sticking around. I'm getting quite moody, but I think it's just because I'm ticked, not because I'm hormonal.

I have an appointment on Friday (follow up for the Mirena placement) and you can guarantee I'll be giving the nurse practitioner an earful!

Okay, that has nothing to do with anything, but I just had to get it off my chest.
Ack, vent away!!! TOM is about 7 days for me lately and that is annoying enough. I hope things get better, maybe this is a temporary thing from having the mirena in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSure View Post
DH has been rather blush-y when I told him that you were congratulating him on the recognition/bonus but he's quietly pleased.

It was a lovely celebration and I'm so pleased that it happened. Anytime you get to celebrate such a dear friend officially finishing chemotherapy is fabulous.

Other than that, let's just say, things have been a tad fraught. The front door stuck because it's been swelling and contracting with the rain and sun. In attempting to open it by thumping it, DH broke one of the 2 glass panes in the door and the adjoining double-glazed window. So, we got home last night, he did that, then we were waiting until 10:30pm for the insurers' emergency glaziers to come out and put in a security repair.

I shall write this up when my head is more in the game but I had a DXA scan while I was away. It will take a while for me to process the information and to talk to people about it but it was a mixed bag. My body composition is better than indicated by the BodPod last year (huzzah - but not enough to throw a party about). But...my skeletal muscle mass is so scant that I already meet the definition for sarcopenia at what seems like 30 years ahead of schedule. There's also some indication that although my overall bone mineral density is OK there are some areas where it isn't - to the point where there is marked erosion in my lower back (which may account for some of the pain).

Anyhow - mixed news, a tad fraught. I don't think I'll be able to discuss the scan in much detail for a few days as I have an awful lot to think through.
I am so sorry, slow. I don't know anything about this, really, but the fact that you're upset is upsetting enough. We love you here and are always here for you. Sending prayers and lots of love, sweet friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yam-Yam View Post
Don't know how my day will go. I was up taking care of DH last night. Almost took him to the hospital. I think he might have pneumonia. I gave him hot tea and honey at 2 a.m. and convinced him to take two of my Tylenol PM tablets which knocked him out pretty good but I was afraid to go to sleep because he had been having trouble breathing.

We have been passing colds back and forth and this one has a horrible sore throat, sneezing and a really miserable cough with lots of mucus and yuck.

Called the doctor this morning and they want to see him so we have an appointment in a few hours.

The kids are supposed to arrive at 3 this afternoon. I called DD to give her a heads up.

In the middle of all that we are having wood delivered for our wood burning stove. Our delivery guy comes by and drops it on the side of the street by our yard and we always move and stack it right away 'cos we can't leave it out there.

DD volunteered to get some of her friends together and have her teens bring work clothes and she said don't worry, they will take care of it. But I'm going to help. I need the exercise and I need to supervise or it will end up in all the wrong places.

Wouldn't mind if you JBs would send up some good thoughts and prayers for DH. He is 8 years older than me. When he gets really sick like he was last night, I get extremely concerned.

I had maybe 2 hours of sleep last night and I'm running on adrenaline at this point.
I hope DH is better today, yamster?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly View Post
I bought the pumpkin bread and cinnamon bagels from the great low carb bakery since DW has diabetes and can't leave bread and bagels alone. I must admit they are pretty darn good and I'm not even low carb. Look, you know it's not totally normal bread, but it's awfully tasty and the calories are not bad. 160 for a whole bagel that is a "real" bagel size (insert large and remember I'm from NY). Not a tiny bagel like you get in the frozen section of the grocery store.
Oh my, these sound lovely to me. I know we have a gluten free bakery (the owner is my neighbor!), but know of no low carb bakery around here. What a cool thing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Planelman View Post
Slow - I know you didn't give specific details, but you indicated that your body composition is better than the bodpod indicated so that should be a big plus. Means you have less distance to cross to get to a level you are comfortable with. I'm not sure if you still do rotations or not, but if you do, it might be a good time to stop for a bit, and concentrate on daily nutrition to get the building blocks you need to gain some muscle mass. And then add or increase resistance training to both build muscle mass and increase bone density.

I don't want to bash JUDDD and I hope no one takes it as a bash, but I don't think there is enough emphasis on food quality and nutrients when you are limited to eating every other day. I've held off on saying anything because I like this community and the group support which is awesome, but there seems to be to much focus on eating what you want, on UD's as long as it fits into you UD allowance, and not enough focus on what you did not get yesterday that you need to prioritize that you get today. When I did JUDDD EOD I was tracking everything and it was very apparent after the first month that my average protein was nowhere near where it needed to be to provide the building blocks I needed to build muscle while losing fat and during that time it was very noticeable that I was not making progress in the gym and I'm pretty sure I lost some muscle mass. After that I upped my calorie limits overall and tried to concentrate first on protein on DD's and then exceeded required protein on UD's and things definitely turned around at that point and I was able to perform better and increase my weight training. Was it the calories or the protein? I'm not sure but if you are going to be active, you need both. If you're not active then it is even more important to get enough protein to protect the muscle you have. I don't know all the metabolic processes involved but if you don't get enough protein and calories overall your body will break down your muscle and fat, to supplement.

JUDDD definitely works to lose weight, but what weight? We want fat loss, not muscle loss. I haven't read any of the books, so I don't know if any of the authors address this specifically. If not then it is a big gap. JUDDD for weight loss should concentrate first on food quality, protein minimums for DD's and UD's and then those numbers along with your weight and age and height into the calculator to give you both your UD/DD calories and minimum macro targets for each day. If that means higher DD's then so be it, that is what you need.

I hope I don't upset anyone with my thoughts. I'm just concerned that while this WOE can result in weight loss and other fasting benefits it may on the surface neglect nutrition for those benefits. And if the books don't promote a focus on nutrition then we should.
Nothing upsetting about that to me, very informative and you are right that concentrating on nutrition should be a priority for us all.
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Old 03-08-2014, 08:03 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windygap View Post
Planelman Thank you for the very interesting reading. I am a 64 year old lady who sits all day driving a bus. I do not exercise much. They say my numbers should be 1554 up and 311 down. I have lost a lot of muscle mass since losing on JUDDD. Can you tell me what I should move the numbers to like you just did with Patkid. I have been wondering how to get this mass back so if I understand you correctly we have to bring the protin back in and lower the carbs. Is that right.
I cannot give specific recommendations because I'm not an expert on this and I don't want to give any specific nutritional advice to anyone that may negatively affect their progress or health. The numbers I threw out above were pulled from thin air and are not specific to Pat.

What I did for myself was to take into account my overall WOE, which was primal before JUDDD and continued to be primal during JUDDD, then I read up on protein requirements to maintain and/or increase muscle mass, taking into account my activity levels. Using that information and an idea of the protein grams per pound of LBM (.8 - 1g), based on my then estimate of my LBM using my scale, I used online calculators for BMR/TDEE to determine my calories needed to maintain and lose weight and the macro breakdown I needed to do that. Various IIFYM calculators do a good job of taking into account your WOE or let you customize protein/carbs to then give you a breakdown of your macros you should target at different calorie goals. Then I took that calorie goal to lose the weight I wanted and compared it to the JUDDD UD/DD numbers and I made adjustments to the activity level and the % to still be in the weight loss range, while mostly reaching my protein goals and staying within my carb limits. What I ended up with was a UD/DD calories, and UD/DD protein/carb/fat grams that when averaged came close to what I needed. Because DD's limit calories to approximate a fast, I had to move protein to my UD which lowered carbs and fat for the UD. Using those targets I planned every days food choices around those targets.

After writing that out it seems way too complicated. That is why it would be nice if the JUDDD calculator incorporated some of the nutritional info and provided these details.
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Old 03-08-2014, 08:51 AM   #161
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Start Date: April28,2013JUDDD start June 16' 2013
Thanks for the info. It sounds like a good plan. I will check in to it. I need more protein for sure and less carbs. Thanks for taking the time to explain. It was complicated but I understand what you were saying. You are so helpful.
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Old 03-08-2014, 09:06 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdforshort View Post
Finally, Facetimed with DD after couple of days! Too busy with studies and real bad internet reception at her house, was her excuse! Sounded good and planning a trip to the Great Barrier Reef to celebrate her birthday in couple of weeks!
Oh, that sounds like so much fun! I know you'll be looking forward to that!

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Originally Posted by Librarygirl View Post
I'm feeling pretty good this morning and actually went down on the scale after a UD for the first time ever. I hope that doesn't mean that I don't lose after a DD today. Maybe I can get out of the 70s before a year passes. July will make a year that I first got out of the 80's.
So glad you're feeling good (that was yesterday, I think, so I hope you still are today! ) and great news going down after an UD! I've had that happen a few times and it's fun! You WILL get out of the 170s. You WILL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goner View Post
Trying to catch up on all the news - but such a busy thread! I'm home now - back from my AZ adventure for February. I was 164 today - and ready to do battle with these vacation pounds.

So much unpacking to do - hello to all! Hugs to those who are struggling and congrats to those doing well. Life happens - we just move on one day at a time!
Goner! I'm glad you made it home okay. I'm sure you'll take those few extra pounds off quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sorenkkg View Post
Carol-- thanks chica! How are you doing with your mojo?

Funny-- I was worried about my UD yesterday, but lying on the couch, I thought my tummy felt, um, lower.

So even though I don't weigh after UDs, I weighed today, and was down a bit!

Now I'm trying to balance wanting to exercise (thinking it's some magic thing) with some stress I'm feeling in my left hip and knee.

I'm taking glucosamine now, hoping that will help... they say to take it for a full month before judging.

That's it on my side-- oh, I'm hearing weird things in the walls at night, so I called an exterminator We had mice last year, and I thought we handled it. But we share a wall with the neighbor, and I *know* they didn't handle their side of things (they're lovely people, but they outright told me that they had mice and didn't do much about it) so this might be an uphill battle.
sigh.
S.
My mojo seems to be coming back to me. Yesterday I had some major sugar cravings, so that's taking longer to conquer that I thought it would. But so far today I'm feeling great and really motivated.

You take it easy on your joints, girl! We can't have you hurting yourself!

Mice! I've had field mice in my house before. It's awful, because they're so darn cute, and I hated to have to kill them, but you just can't have that in your house! YUCK! But how can your neighbors know they have mice and not do much??? I mean, that's filthy! BLUCK!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yam-Yam View Post
Don't know how my day will go. I was up taking care of DH last night. Almost took him to the hospital. I think he might have pneumonia. I gave him hot tea and honey at 2 a.m. and convinced him to take two of my Tylenol PM tablets which knocked him out pretty good but I was afraid to go to sleep because he had been having trouble breathing.

We have been passing colds back and forth and this one has a horrible sore throat, sneezing and a really miserable cough with lots of mucus and yuck.
Wouldn't mind if you JBs would send up some good thoughts and prayers for DH. He is 8 years older than me. When he gets really sick like he was last night, I get extremely concerned.

I had maybe 2 hours of sleep last night and I'm running on adrenaline at this point.
Yam! I totally missed this yesterday, and I hope everything is okay with Mr. Yam! Sending thoughts and prayers right away.

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Originally Posted by Carly View Post
I feel like this ----> , so super glad it's Friday evening and I'm looking forward to a relaxing weekend.

I'm also hoping to get some good sleep- thanks for all the wishes and comments about this.

I my JBs.
I'm glad you can have some relaxation this weekend! And yes, sleep all you can! You need to make up for what you've been missing.

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Originally Posted by Goner View Post
Yam - how is your DH today? So sorry he is under the weather. I hope your wood delivery goes well. We too are in need of more wood for the stove, such a cold winter here, we used way more than usual.

I had a good DD yesterday - ate a bit more than I had planned, but calories were under 400 - so easing back in. A nice 2 pound drop - bloat I'm sure - is so encouraging.

Today we might hit 50 degrees here - I MUST get outside. Missing the AZ warmth, have to settle for NJs.
Wow, under 400 is a pretty darn good start, I'd say! And 2 pounds gone already - you've got this! 50* sounds pretty toasty for you guys. It'll be 83* or so here today, and all the citrus is blooming and smells heavenly. Which reminds me....must go take my Zyrtec!

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Originally Posted by Planelman View Post
I don't want to bash JUDDD and I hope no one takes it as a bash, but I don't think there is enough emphasis on food quality and nutrients when you are limited to eating every other day. I've held off on saying anything because I like this community and the group support which is awesome, but there seems to be to much focus on eating what you want, on UD's as long as it fits into you UD allowance, and not enough focus on what you did not get yesterday that you need to prioritize that you get today. When I did JUDDD EOD I was tracking everything and it was very apparent after the first month that my average protein was nowhere near where it needed to be to provide the building blocks I needed to build muscle while losing fat and during that time it was very noticeable that I was not making progress in the gym and I'm pretty sure I lost some muscle mass. After that I upped my calorie limits overall and tried to concentrate first on protein on DD's and then exceeded required protein on UD's and things definitely turned around at that point and I was able to perform better and increase my weight training. Was it the calories or the protein? I'm not sure but if you are going to be active, you need both. If you're not active then it is even more important to get enough protein to protect the muscle you have. I don't know all the metabolic processes involved but if you don't get enough protein and calories overall your body will break down your muscle and fat, to supplement.

JUDDD definitely works to lose weight, but what weight? We want fat loss, not muscle loss. I haven't read any of the books, so I don't know if any of the authors address this specifically. If not then it is a big gap. JUDDD for weight loss should concentrate first on food quality, protein minimums for DD's and UD's and then those numbers along with your weight and age and height into the calculator to give you both your UD/DD calories and minimum macro targets for each day. If that means higher DD's then so be it, that is what you need.

I hope I don't upset anyone with my thoughts. I'm just concerned that while this WOE can result in weight loss and other fasting benefits it may on the surface neglect nutrition for those benefits. And if the books don't promote a focus on nutrition then we should.
Mike, you certainly haven't upset me. I respect your opinion and your knowledge, and I always read your posts with great interest. I am so glad that JUDDD provides the flexibility for people to even start a weight loss journey, and if that means eating "what you want" for a bit and getting motivated and being able to stick with a program, then I think that's a great tool. But I totally agree with you about protein and nutrition. It's very important to me at this point to maintain my muscle mass, and I really hope to be building at least a little bit. And that means getting enough protein. I'm just so glad I really love protein!

Please don't hesitate to post what you're thinking here! You never, ever say anything in a preachy way. You always share your ideas and where you got them in a really encouraging and generous way. We need you here, Mike! By the way, I read the article you mentioned in my "shake it up" thread, and I'll comment more there, but thanks for that. It makes perfect sense, and I want to read it again and really think through his recommendations.

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You can't go ANYWHERE! I am sorry you're feeling that dreaded diet fatigue, but girl, your accomplishments are AMAZING! If doing atkins for a bit works, good for you! Juddd isn't going anywhere, and you have a PLAN, so it's not like you're throwing in the towel. (boy have I done THAT when diet fatigue hit!) You'll do great!
Aren't you just the sweetest! I'm feeling better, and I do think this is the best move for me right now, but I'm already kind of missing the JUDDD feelings. So I'll be back to it before too long, I'm sure.
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Old 03-08-2014, 09:30 AM   #163
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Hey y'all...just checking in to stay honest with myself and keep in touch with the JB's.

Yam, how's the DH? I know your feelings as mine was also eight years older than I, so anytime he had problems, I felt I did too. Good thinking, tho' as pneumonia is nothing to play around with...prayers going for you and he.

Slow, dexa can be misleading, and I'm sure your doc will take other tests to verify any problems. The x-spurts (you know the definition...x=an unknown factor, spurt = a drip under pressure) are now saying the dexa has a lot of problems and be careful with the readings. I went through a recent time when the docs thought I had more problems than I did. I have gone from osteopenia to osteoporosis and back again because of the injectables...,I get the yearly one. Now if I could just get my behind in gear and start saving density through exercise, I'd be much better off.

PM, thanks for the ideas. My low is supposed to be about 300 but I've lost the most weight when I kept them under 500 calories...and my food diary shows mostly protein when doing so. And I do keep my UD's within reason but heavy protein as well. Keep on keeping on..
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:40 AM   #164
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I didn't get online yesterday dn have been travelling today, so have only caught up a little.

No time for everything here but just wanted to tell you how sorry I am that the scan was disturbing Slow. Thinking of you.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:56 AM   #165
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I think Mike's general suggestion about more protein is a sound one. We are all so different and men are quite different than women. I just saw a piece on television that men who exercise with diet can lose weight very well, but for women it is much more about what they eat (read don't eat) than the exercise. They said exercise is good of course and helps tone, but women do not lose the same way from exercise that men do.

I got some semi-decent sleep last night. Work had settled down till yesterday and boy oh boy did yesterday set everything spinning. I'm going to leave it at that, but it's amazing that I slept as well as I did with what I went to bed thinking about.
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Old 03-08-2014, 12:50 PM   #166
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The benefit that both men and women get from exercise, specifically some type of weight lifting/resistance exercise, is with bone density. I think that being active is sometimes a more important factor for bone density and has more beneficial results than diet alone could give you.

Exercise can help build and maintain muscle, for both men and women, but as it has been said many times you cannot out exercise a bad diet. So combined with adequate nutrition at the right level, for your unique metabolic needs, it can be beneficial for both men and women, but usually not equally, but that is just the nature of our biological differences. I personally struggled for 15 years trying to lose as easily as I did the first time doing the same things I did then with no success. It was only the right combination of motivation, both internal and external, as well as nutritional advice, which is actually completely different from what I follow now, that led to my success and led me to discover what actually works for me personally. Even now I learn new stuff every week and question some of the things I'm doing trying to dial it the optimal combination of nutrition and exercise. I'm pretty sure it will be something I will have to pay attention for the rest of my life, for fear of going down a path that I may not be able to recover from doing the same things I do now.
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Old 03-08-2014, 01:26 PM   #167
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Keep in mind that carbs spare protein. If you are eating low carb, you will need significantly more protein than if you are eating a high carb diet because some of the protein will be converted to glucose. It takes approx. two grams of protein to make one gram of glucose, so you end up burning through the protein pretty quickly.

I've seen some older studies on high starch/carb, low protein diets that showed adult males in nitrogen balance at 25 - 35 grams of protein a day. Also, Dr. Varaday claims that her studies showed no LBM loss with EOD fasts as long as the participants exercised. They weren't watching their macros, either.
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Old 03-08-2014, 01:33 PM   #168
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So much to think about. I wish I understood all this stuff better.
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:51 PM   #169
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What a great group to be a part of. All you JUDDD BUDDs are the best. Thank you for your thoughts and prayers for DH.

Doctor did a very thorough examination including a strep test and at that point, yesterday, DH did not have strep or pneumonia. But she did say after looking under the microscope that he has a serious virus that is going around right now and it's very contagious and dangerous. She sent us home with masks to wear.

I was specifically concerned about pneumonia because we had our grand daughter with us in Palm Springs. She got sick about mid week and by the time she got home her mom took her to the doctor, they did a chest xray, found a dark spot and said diagnosed her with walking pneumonia.

I know it's dangerous for for older folks and my DH is 67 so that is why I was so concerned.

Today DH has developed a fever and that's not making me happy. DD brought over her home made tortilla soup and since the doc recommended he eat lots of soup, that worked out well. He has just about finished the whole pot of it in two days!

I'm playing nurse for him and also took care of two of my grand kids at the same time. We kept DH quarantined in bed the whole time so he wouldn't have any contact with the kids. I have hand sanitizer in every room of the house and keep cleaning everything with bleach to kill germs.

Dear DD came a little while ago to pick up the kids and I'm exhausted and just feel like driving over to the corner store to pick up a bottle of my favorite chardonnay, making myself some lovely snacks and zoning out with a movie, but I resisted that strong urge! It's a DD and I'm gritting my teeth and sticking with my plan.

I'm washing sheets and towels and continuing to try and kill germs. ha!

Thanks again for all your love, prayers and concern. DH isn't out of the woods yet, but I'm hopeful that this can't last forever. right?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Goner View Post
Yam - how is your DH today? So sorry he is under the weather. I hope your wood delivery goes well. We too are in need of more wood for the stove, such a cold winter here, we used way more than usual.

I had a good DD yesterday - ate a bit more than I had planned, but calories were under 400 - so easing back in. A nice 2 pound drop - bloat I'm sure - is so encouraging.

Today we might hit 50 degrees here - I MUST get outside. Missing the AZ warmth, have to settle for NJs.
Goner: First of all, CONGRATS on 2 pounds gone already! Woo-Hoo!

Thanks also for your prayers for DH.

The wood delivery came yesterday. DD brought a young strong guy who insisted on doing all the moving and stacking himself! Dear DD and I were planning to help him along with my 15 yr. old DGD. He said that is no job for ladies and leave it to him. In about 45 minutes it was all moved and stacked! Wowzers. What a guy! It usually takes DH and I a couple of days to do it (we poop out after a couple of hours, so have to break it up over a few days so we don't kill ourselves! LOL!)
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:58 PM   #170
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Mike: No one will be upset about such a thoughtful, caring and wise post as yours!

Thanks for reminding us of the importance of protein in maintaining and building muscle. Sometimes we know these things, but don't always do what we know.

That's true of me. I've been meaning to "beef up" the protein - so to speak. But have not done as much as I should.

You have inspired me, on this DD, to have 20 grams of protein before the day is over. And, tomorrow I'm going to really try to up it higher than I have been on UDs.

Thanks for your insight.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:00 PM   #171
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Frosty: That's some good info. Not sure I knew that.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:54 PM   #172
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SlowSure ... I so wish your dexa results were 100% positive news. It sounds such a lot to process. In your research, have you found anything about the possibility of improving muscle mass? Can protein and resistance training help reverse this? What I'm hoping is that this information, which most people never get, will ultimately be is a great gift that will allow you to take action that will be beneficial. There is probably someone walking around right now with the same thing who has absolutely no idea and so can't know to do anything about it ... you're much better off than that person. Even though it can't be easy, I still think that if anyone can find a solution, it's you, our resident Queen of Research.
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Old 03-08-2014, 11:34 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Planelman View Post

Was it the calories or the protein? I'm not sure but if you are going to be active, you need both. If you're not active then it is even more important to get enough protein to protect the muscle you have. I don't know all the metabolic processes involved but if you don't get enough protein and calories overall your body will break down your muscle and fat, to supplement.

JUDDD definitely works to lose weight, but what weight? We want fat loss, not muscle loss. I haven't read any of the books, so I don't know if any of the authors address this specifically.
You said this very tactfully and with obvious concern for everyone's well-being (no offense taken!)

I've been thinking about this a lot. It's so confusing because, as Carly pointed out, food intake has more to do with fat loss than exercise intake (I've often heard calories 80%, exercise 20%). But then, get the calories too low, and you risk losing lean body mass and even stalling out weight loss sometimes. Exercise, while beneficial in many ways, adds another element to the optimal calories for fat loss equation. It helps with the lean body mass, but makes the right calorie level trickier for many of us .

Mike, I just read about a study that really illustrates your point. In the study, three groups were overfed. Carbs were kept constant, but one group was higher fat and lower protein, one moderate protein, and one high protein. I was surprised to read that the high fat/lower protein group gained less weight, but there was a catch ... that group gained the same amount of fat, but they also lost lean body mass at the same time! The normal and high protein groups gained both fat and muscle mass. If that's the case for weight gain, I am worried about what happens to someone in a calorie deficit who doesn't have enough protein. Why is this link between protein and LBM not better known? And this quote is scary:
Quote:
Throughout the course of the study, researchers also measured changes in the participants’ energy expenditure, or how many calories they used in a day, and found that those on normal- and high-protein diets were not only burning more calories than they did before the start of the study, but they were also using more significantly more energy than the low-protein group.

Meanwhile, resting metabolism in the low-protein eaters declined: in other words, as they gained weight, they required fewer calories to maintain that weight — a handy recipe for obesity.
P.S. Johnson's new book does spend a lot chapters on nutrition, but I don't remember him emphasizing protein, but I'm not sure about that ... I'll try to double check that and let you know, unless someone else beats me to it. I wish there were more long term alternate fasting studies.

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Old 03-09-2014, 03:55 AM   #174
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I lost my last 100 lbs on JUDDD, and I totally agree with Mike. Please keep in mind that metabolically, I need very low carb, so I came to JUDDD already eating low carb. I also need to severely restrict calories to lose because of my metabolic issues.

I always begin with my protein requirements, and, quite frankly, that leaves me little for additional food. On DDs, I ate mainly protein (egg whites, tuna), and on UDs, I always got at least 70g of protein, sometimes more.

Now I 'look' lean, and thanks to strength training, I have muscle definition for perhaps the first time in my life. We all lose some muscle when we lose weight, but unless we meet our minimum protein needs, we risk losing too much muscle which is not healthy.

I'm a 'senior' woman (72), and I've read that older women need even more protein to protect against bone/muscle loss after menopause. l know that I seem to thrive eating this way. I get regular blood tests for my thyroid, and all my lab values are always excellent.
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Old 03-09-2014, 07:24 AM   #175
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Wow, what a lot going on!

SlowSure, congratulations to your DH and Big Hugs to you.
Like Mary, I wondered if the results could be just a misleading scare. I hope you soon find what helps.

Cindy and Carol, glad you're feeling better.

Carly, good that you managed to relax after all. I hope you've had a lovely weekend.

Mike, thanks for your wise post, which triggered an important and valuable debate.

Yam-Yam what a wonderful wood-delivery man!
I hope your DH is soon much better and no-one else catches his bug.
Take lots of Vit C and maybe you could massage some tea-tree oil into the soles of his feet and his back.
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Old 03-09-2014, 07:34 AM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo41 View Post
I lost my last 100 lbs on JUDDD, and I totally agree with Mike. Please keep in mind that metabolically, I need very low carb, so I came to JUDDD already eating low carb. I also need to severely restrict calories to lose because of my metabolic issues.

I always begin with my protein requirements, and, quite frankly, that leaves me little for additional food. On DDs, I ate mainly protein (egg whites, tuna), and on UDs, I always got at least 70g of protein, sometimes more.

Now I 'look' lean, and thanks to strength training, I have muscle definition for perhaps the first time in my life. We all lose some muscle when we lose weight, but unless we meet our minimum protein needs, we risk losing too much muscle which is not healthy.

I'm a 'senior' woman (72), and I've read that older women need even more protein to protect against bone/muscle loss after menopause. l know that I seem to thrive eating this way. I get regular blood tests for my thyroid, and all my lab values are always excellent.
I can only say WOW!
When I posted w/ you in the past I always thought you were a male. I can be a bit of a dope.
Thank you so so so much for this post. It really does help me think and I am grateful for your input.
Respect.
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Old 03-09-2014, 07:55 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yam-Yam View Post
What a great group to be a part of. All you JUDDD BUDDs are the best. Thank you for your thoughts and prayers for DH.

Doctor did a very thorough examination including a strep test and at that point, yesterday, DH did not have strep or pneumonia. But she did say after looking under the microscope that he has a serious virus that is going around right now and it's very contagious and dangerous. She sent us home with masks to wear.

I was specifically concerned about pneumonia because we had our grand daughter with us in Palm Springs. She got sick about mid week and by the time she got home her mom took her to the doctor, they did a chest xray, found a dark spot and said diagnosed her with walking pneumonia.

I know it's dangerous for for older folks and my DH is 67 so that is why I was so concerned.

Today DH has developed a fever and that's not making me happy. DD brought over her home made tortilla soup and since the doc recommended he eat lots of soup, that worked out well. He has just about finished the whole pot of it in two days!

I'm playing nurse for him and also took care of two of my grand kids at the same time. We kept DH quarantined in bed the whole time so he wouldn't have any contact with the kids. I have hand sanitizer in every room of the house and keep cleaning everything with bleach to kill germs.

Dear DD came a little while ago to pick up the kids and I'm exhausted and just feel like driving over to the corner store to pick up a bottle of my favorite chardonnay, making myself some lovely snacks and zoning out with a movie, but I resisted that strong urge! It's a DD and I'm gritting my teeth and sticking with my plan.

I'm washing sheets and towels and continuing to try and kill germs. ha!

Thanks again for all your love, prayers and concern. DH isn't out of the woods yet, but I'm hopeful that this can't last forever. right?






Goner: First of all, CONGRATS on 2 pounds gone already! Woo-Hoo!

Thanks also for your prayers for DH.

The wood delivery came yesterday. DD brought a young strong guy who insisted on doing all the moving and stacking himself! Dear DD and I were planning to help him along with my 15 yr. old DGD. He said that is no job for ladies and leave it to him. In about 45 minutes it was all moved and stacked! Wowzers. What a guy! It usually takes DH and I a couple of days to do it (we poop out after a couple of hours, so have to break it up over a few days so we don't kill ourselves! LOL!)
I am so glad for this update on your hubby.
It sounds like you are a great nurse!
Prayer continues.
hugs,P
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Old 03-09-2014, 07:58 AM   #178
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Mike- I hope you didn't feel that I was being argumentative, because that was not my intention at all. Just pointing out some gender differences that we don't always take into account. In general, and especially in pharmaceutical studies, the studies are done with male subjects only so everything doesn't always translate as well to women. I read that big pharm uses men, because women's hormones throw the studies off, but they apply what is learned from the men to women as well when making dosing recommendations, etc...
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Old 03-09-2014, 08:00 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly View Post
Mike- I hope you didn't feel that I was being argumentative, because that was not my intention at all. Just pointing out some gender differences that we don't always take into account. In general, and especially in pharmaceutical studies, the studies are done with male subjects only so everything doesn't always translate as well to women. I read that big pharm uses men, because women's hormones throw the studies off, but they apply what is leaned from the men to women as well when making dosing recommendations, etc...
No one could ever think of you as argumentative, Carly.
Your spirit is so kind and supportive. I am learning from this discussion.
You are a hero to me.
I hope work stress eases. Though I am retired now, I remember it really well.
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Old 03-09-2014, 08:06 AM   #180
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Good morning all!

Yamster, wonderful that hubby is eating some soup and doing a bit better. I'm sure it's your excellent nursing skills helping him along!
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