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Old 02-14-2014, 11:01 AM   #1
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Thread for FROSTY

Ok, I am seriously, hopelessly behind on the chat thread. I don't have time to catch up, and I don't like to skip to the end, so since I'm currently in to FROSTY's frustrations with a plateau, I wanted to hear how things are going.

Frosty, start a thread when you need help. PLEASE!!! It's great to journal, and I have one on another board myself, but for those of us that Juddd & can't keep up over there regularly, I love to see threads so I can try to pop in when I get a minute and offer support. Never ever think twice about it! It's NOT attention seeking, just friends trying to help one another through tough periods.

SO, I read where you're doing 0 cal DDs and once you started doing that, expecting even bigger drops on the evil scale, you stalled? Could your overall cals be too low now with the 0 DDs? I always lost well with uber low DDs, but it's sure not for everyone. Some people need higher calorie DDs to do best, especially if you don't feel well since making the change.

I'll shut up now until I'm able to catch up more or read more of your update here, but I hope you're feeling more positive since your page 9/10 posts. You got this!!! Ignore the crappy scale. It lies and it's stinky.
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:18 AM   #2
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Well, I didn't want to be an attention ***** and start my own thread so this is awesome!

I'll write more as I have time but it may that I was eating too low on UDs and it stalled me. I haven't really been doing regular rotations for awhile and my weight is starting to come back down anyway. Over the last week, I did a 500-600 calorie DD on Monday and then did MDs Wed and Thursday. I had a whole bunch of UDs before that. Despite that, I was still at 199.8 lbs this morning, which is roughly where I was in January after doing strict 0 cal DDs EOD.

I hope to get back to strict EOD rotations on Monday, though with 500 cal DDs. I will say that doing 0 cal DDs was easier. I think I am more hungry when I eat something and it's more of a struggle to stay in the calorie limits.
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:22 AM   #3
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Oh boy, I can relate to the 0 cal DDs being easier in regards to the hunger. Yep!

SO happy to hear your weight has moved down again and you are feeling more confident! Excellent news!!! The one time I stalled was also when I adjusted my numbers down and ended up with too few calories. I bet you're on to something there. Eat boy!!!
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:04 PM   #4
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I am so happy to see you post that 0 is easier than 'some'.
I so get that.
It seems like you are doing well again, right?
I will be following along and:
Nice to meecha!
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Old 02-14-2014, 05:09 PM   #5
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This is great, Melinda. Frosty, I hope it's helpful to you. I have never done a 0 DD, but I do completely agree that starting to eat makes me want to eat more. I really should try a 0 day some time, or at least a really low coffee day like Melinda does.

It'll be interesting to see how you progress. Good luck!
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Old 02-14-2014, 05:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patkid View Post
I am so happy to see you post that 0 is easier than 'some'.
I so get that.
It seems like you are doing well again, right?
I will be following along and:
Nice to meecha!
Nice to meet you, too.

I hope you know I wasn't make fun of you and your linen napkins the other day. I was just marveling at the differences we all have.

I don't consider myself a slob or uncouth; I'm just a minimalist.
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Old 02-14-2014, 05:45 PM   #7
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here is the whiny post that Flutter was referring to originally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyBeav View Post
I think I've lost my mojo or something. I ended up with three straight UDs over the weekend and am still not feelin' it with respect to the DD today. I had an UD on Friday and planned on an DD on Saturday. I made it 'til dinner time and then had my disastrous experience with the BCAAs. I ended up eating something just to try to get the taste out of my mouth (it didn't help).

On Sunday, I did fine until almost dinner and then lost it and ate dinner (taco salad). On both Sat and Sun, I didn't eat until dinner time and didn't pig out so they weren't UUADs (probably more like an UD and then a MD). Despite that, my weight bounced right back up to about 204 lbs, which seems to be the go-to weight anymore. It's also about the average that I've been at over the last year or so.

While I like seeing the low numbers on the scale after a full fast DD, I don't really consider that my "true weight" since I am depleted after a day of fasting. Even so, I started JUDDD on Nov 12 at 211 and saw a post-DD weight of 199.0 on Dec 20. I didn't see 199 again until Jan 24th and wasn't able to get below that weight until I did two DDs and two MDs all back to back last week.

Last May, I was easily able to drop to 200 lbs after two weeks when I experimented with a very low fat diet. And that was eating every day and not counting anything. I had high hopes for JUDDD because I felt like I could cut calories and just eat what my wife and son eat (I had to make my own meals doing VLF because they didn't want to eat that way), just every other day.

I generally like eating this way and haven't had any trouble doing the fasting, until now. I'm just struggling with continuing to do it while not really getting the results I expected. I keep telling myself that the four months have included Thanksgiving, Christmas to New Years, my birthday and two bouts of antibiotics but it only kind of helps. The bottom line is that despite dieting for four months, I am still at the basic weight I was a year ago. That's better than gaining but still...

I've decided for now that I am going to drop the full fasting and eat 500 calories on DDs (mostly low fat protein) and then cut back to normal eating on UDs. I don't want to change how I eat (ie VLF) but may have to explore that later if the weight still doesn't come off or my BP doesn't drop (it dropped a lot doing VLF). I am also going to get better about exercise.

This is pretty much just my pity party, so sorry about that. I was pretty bummed about the whole thing this morning but feel pretty good about it now. I thought ranting about it may help too.
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Old 02-14-2014, 05:51 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyBeav View Post
Nice to meet you, too.

I hope you know I wasn't make fun of you and your linen napkins the other day. I was just marveling at the differences we all have.

I don't consider myself a slob or uncouth; I'm just a minimalist.
I would never think you were making fun of me and my silly linen napkins.
I think minimalist is the way to go.
I've long given up some of my old ways: ironing sheets and pillowcases, Murphy Oil Soaping every sq in of wood work, polishing shoes weekly, and so on. Life is too short for such silliness.
I think you are on the right path!
It took me a long time to realize what you instinctively know!
It's all good!
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Old 02-14-2014, 05:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyBeav View Post
here is the whiny post that Flutter was referring to originally.
I don't see this as a rant.
It is an analysis.
Very wise.
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Old 02-14-2014, 05:57 PM   #10
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OK, now, with that said,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patkid View Post
I am so happy to see you post that 0 is easier than 'some'.
I so get that.
It seems like you are doing well again, right?
I seem to be doing okay. The only thing is, is that I am not really currently doing JUDDD. My weight hasn't taken off but it's right in the area that triggered my emo post above.

I have been thinking about it all day and I think I have come up with a plan. I don't do as well with 500 calorie DDs (much hungrier) so I am going to go back to eating 0 cal DDs. They are just easier for me.

Instead of EOD, I am going to do a 4:3 pattern with fixed M, W, F DD's (ugh, abbreviation hell!). This gives me an extra UD over a two week period. I am also going to try to be sure to eat earlier on UDs. I frequently don't get hungry until close to noon, which makes it hard to get all the meals in when I wait that long to start eating.

We'll see how that goes. I know this is a LC board and I try to be respectful of that but I am still concerned that something broke when I did VLCarb. I'll explain later and I'll keep it confined to this thread.
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Old 02-14-2014, 06:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patkid View Post
I would never think you were making fun of me and my silly linen napkins.
I think minimalist is the way to go.
I've long given up some of my old ways: ironing sheets and pillowcases, Murphy Oil Soaping every sq in of wood work, polishing shoes weekly, and so on. Life is too short for such silliness.
I think you are on the right path!
It took me a long time to realize what you instinctively know!
It's all good!
Your napkins aren't silly. I actually think it's cool that you like to set a civilized table. I was mostly poking fun at myself.

My mom is one that tries to set a nice table. She has everything in serving bowls on the table, along with serving utensils, full place settings, etc. My wife just thinks you can serve yourself from the kettles on the stove and all that extra stuff is just more stuff to have to clean. We be lazy, yo!
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Old 02-14-2014, 06:20 PM   #12
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Lazy be good, I've discovered over the years. I got to the point I was serving from the pots and pans; didn't expect the dh to serve himself.

I really think you are on to something, Frosty, Dr. J. wrote in his original book that zero calories were best, but he didn't think anyone could stick to that long enough to make goal. He said, then, the next best thing was the protein drinks. I don't know if he changed that in the new one as I can't seem to get into it. and your weekly schedule should do it, too. I can't do the shakes or not eat at all, I have to have something in the tummy for the acids to work on...GERD, you know.

And we may be in the LCF site, but this is a JUDDD thread and has been the leader in this woe and I think we have proven it even to the doc himself. So many JB's have tweaked his original program and proven that it is a good thing.

My thanks to Flutter (by) for starting this thread to give you a place to rant (we all need to do it occasionally) and for us to give you the support. I know I couldn't have lost what I have without the support of all the JB's.

Keep it up and I'm sure you will find the key to unlock your weight loss. hugs
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:13 PM   #13
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Frosty----->

I'm interested in your thoughts about low carb damage. I ate no more than 20 net carbs per day for 3 and a half years, but my mental wellbeing took a down turn. I was convinced that carbs were evil and really became cultish about low carb being the best and only healthy way to eat. I wasn't even reaping amazing health benefits aside from maintaining 112lb body. I even limited lettuce
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Old 02-14-2014, 10:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly View Post
Frosty----->

I'm interested in your thoughts about low carb damage. I ate no more than 20 net carbs per day for 3 and a half years, but my mental wellbeing took a down turn. I was convinced that carbs were evil and really became cultish about low carb being the best and only healthy way to eat. I wasn't even reaping amazing health benefits aside from maintaining 112lb body. I even limited lettuce
I understand the cultish thing. In fact, I think the biggest damage was mental. I was a member of a web forum that if you faltered at all, you were kicked off. I contributed financially to the site and even paid for the plane ticket for the owner of the site to come to a get together on the West Coast, yet when I started to struggle after a year and a half, my account was closed and I was banned.

That all of nothing thinking led me to almost getting an eating disorder. I started to secretly binge. I would do it when my family was at work and school and would hide the packaging and wash all the dishes, etc. Fortunately, getting away from the LC cult helped me to get away from the eating problems, mostly. I am very sensitive to that kind of thinking now.

As for very low carb - if you think about it, it is a diet that basically mimics starvation. When you eat nothing, your body switches to a fat based metabolism. It gets very insulin resistant to protect any glucose it can get (most from converting protein to glucose - gluconeogenesis). It converts fat to ketones and replaces processes that run on glucose (though not all of them) and replaces them with processes that run on ketones. It also down regulates the metabolism to protect against starvation.

The thing is is that the body doesn't know that the fat and protein floating around the blood stream came from the body of from diet so if you eat very low carb, it may not realize that it isn't starving. There are a ton of studies that show that when carbs dip below about 50 g a day, the thyroid starts to slow the metabolism. Hopefully, it's okay to post this link to some of the studies since it's to a non-commercial site (it's my own very neglected blog and I promise I have never tried to sell anything on it) - Blog D'arc: Extreme low carb and thyroid studies .

When you eat low carb, your body can switch to ketones for a lot of the processes. However, not everything can switch and you still require some glucose. In very low carb or starvation, that glucose is mostly provided by converting protein to glucose once the glycogen stored in the liver is used up. This is a very metabolically expensive process and it takes roughly two grams of protein to make one gram of glucose.

I have never been able to find a hard number of how much glucose we need when fully fat adapted but it appears that the magic number is about 50 g, since below that is when the thyroid starts to respond. That means that if you are eating VLC, you need to make sure you eat an addition 100 g of protein on top of what you need for regular body maintenance.

It is my personal belief that some people just aren't that good at gluconeogenesis and run low on glucose when they try to eat VLC. This leads to feeling fuzzy, low energy and a very stressed thyroid. I believe that the sign to the body that you are starving is chronically low liver glycogen and people that are bad at gluconeogenesis never fill their glycogen back up until they eat carbs. The body thinks they are starving and keeps cranking the thyroid down to lower the metabolism and keeps making them more and more insulin resistant to preserve any glucose they can make.

As an aside, the reason refeeds work so well is that the carbs build up the glycogen levels again and signal that you are no longer starving. This is why I personally believe that it's a really bad idea to eat VLC if you are doing ADF. You are basically eating zero carb every other day and very low carb on the days you do eat. Unless you eat a ton of protein, you have a very real risk of running out of glycogen and down regulating your metabolism. Eating non-sugar carbs on UDs is like doing a refeed every other day and keeps your liver full and your thyroid happy.

Low carb gurus like Dr. Mike Eades claim that the insulin reistance that comes from eating VLC is temporary but there actually is no proof of that. You see stories of people that weren't diabetic before eating low carb now will have their blood sugar shoot up to 200 after eating a potato after they went low carb.

My worry is that my foray into zero carb made me insulin resistant and stressed my thyroid enough that I may have a very hard time losing weight now. It definitely raised my set point as I was consistently 195 - 199 lbs before and around 210 lbs after.

However, Carly, you definitely have been able to over come it so that gives me hope, though I think you are a lot younger than I am.
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:29 PM   #15
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By the way, something else that led to my low carb apostasy is that I was active on a different low carb forum (Active Low Carber) for many years and rarely saw anyone get to goal doing the diet. There were people that had been there for years and years and were stuck 30 - 40 pounds over goal. They were constantly tweaking or starting new challenges. The few that got to goal rarely stayed there.

That's part of what attracted me to this forum. There are people here that did this diet to goal (or beyond) and are maintaining with this diet. That's powerful.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:51 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyBeav View Post
I don't do as well with 500 calorie DDs (much hungrier) so I am going to go back to eating 0 cal DDs. ...

Instead of EOD, I am going to do a 4:3 pattern with fixed M, W, F DD's...

We'll see how that goes. I know this is a LC board and I try to be respectful of that but I am still concerned that something broke when I did VLCarb.
As always, different patterns suit different people. TMI but the low volume of alternate days without solid food lead to horrible gut issues for me (and, much as learning about FODMAPs has mostly resolved the IBS, I'm still dealing with the hypersensitivity of living with it since I was a child).

I've done 4:3 as you describe since my induction last year and it's been good for my activity pattern and social life.

At some point, I wouldn't be too surprised if there are genetic factors that influence the response to VLCarb. There are some intriguing speculations that Nordic/Scandi heritage have a tendency towards diabetes because it can act as anti-freeze in the bloodstream during very cold temperatures (despite what is known about the microvascular damage of the various forms of diabetes). It seems like an odd explanation but it is interesting. (I think it's discussed in Survival of the Sickest, Dr. Sharon Moalem.)

There are possibly blood brain barrier explanations as to why some people's serotonin levels tank during low carb when the body might perceive the effort to produce glucose to maintain the brain and other vital organs. Who knows?
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Old 02-15-2014, 05:28 AM   #17
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I just wanted to quickly say in response to your 'eat earlier on UD' idea...I had to do that. I was never hungry but I had to eat 500 or more calories by lunchtime or I lost energy and my weight loss stalled. Obviously, we have a few differences, but this is one vote for eat lunch!

Now, I am going to re-read your posts sixteen times and think. I went to pure LCHF when I was DX prediabetic a few months ago. And suddenly I am seeing what might be signs my thyroid is in trouble (a pattern I have seen in the past, not sure if I was LCHF during previous events). You have given me much to research my friend.

OH! BTW! I believe you WILL overcome this and triumph!!!
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:10 AM   #18
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I wanted to stop in with encouragement - but I have nothing to add about LC or VLC. I have never counted carbs and actually having to count calories on JUDDD was an eye opener to me. Perhaps that's why I never succeeded in maintaining weight loss before. <wink>

I find all the information really interesting, so I will be following closely. I love knowing the inside story on how the body works - and so fascinating to me how different we can all be.

I know you will find your path Frosty - you sound determined and thorough... good luck!
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Old 02-15-2014, 08:16 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotsomeold View Post
I just wanted to quickly say in response to your 'eat earlier on UD' idea...I had to do that. I was never hungry but I had to eat 500 or more calories by lunchtime or I lost energy and my weight loss stalled. Obviously, we have a few differences, but this is one vote for eat lunch!

Now, I am going to re-read your posts sixteen times and think. I went to pure LCHF when I was DX prediabetic a few months ago. And suddenly I am seeing what might be signs my thyroid is in trouble (a pattern I have seen in the past, not sure if I was LCHF during previous events). You have given me much to research my friend.

OH! BTW! I believe you WILL overcome this and triumph!!!
Just a quick post before heading out the door.

In my opinion, treating diabetes with LC is the same thing as treating high blood pressure with diuretics. It alleviates the symptoms for a while but does nothing to get to the root cause. It's a band-aid that may make things worse if you go too low in carb, since that tends to make you even more insulin resistant over time.
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Old 02-15-2014, 08:46 AM   #20
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I need to read this more thoroughly, but I have found through my (numerous now) experiments with LC that not only do I not lose weight, but any carbs I do inevitably consume, pile on weight. I am like a sponge now. I swear, if I knew anything conclusively about how to go about this weight loss thing the right way, I'd be a billionaire. For now, I'm back at JUDDD, no carb restrictions...at least I can maintain about 8 lbs lower than I am now.
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:34 AM   #21
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Very interested in this thread but no time to read right now, so am subscribing.
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Old 02-15-2014, 03:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
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At some point, I wouldn't be too surprised if there are genetic factors that influence the response to VLCarb.
I agree that there is a genetic component. One example may be seen in the amylase gene. Amylase is an enzyme we produce in our saliva and in our pancreas. It helps break down starch so it can be more easily digested.

The weird thing is that different people have different quantities of the gene for amylase production. I borrowed this from a science blog "Amylase and human evolution" by PZ Myers.

Quote:
As I said yesterday, the amylase gene has another interesting attribute — it seems to be in a hotspot for duplication, and different people have different numbers of copies of the gene. If you just had one copy of the gene per chromosome, your cells would each have a grand total of two copies…but instead, we more typically have 5 to 7, with some people having only 2, and others having 15 or more.
From that, it seems like different people would have different capabilities to break down starch. I don't know for sure, but it would seem to me that the more amylase you make, the better you handle carbs and you would probably do better on a higher carb diet.

That's just one example. I am sure there are more.

I'm not against low carb. What I don't like are the low carb police that go around and tell everyone that they should eat low carb and if you don't, you're a carb addict. Also, doctors are stupid to not put everyone on low carb, etc. They are as bad as the vegans, imo.

Also, if you don't do well on a low carb diet, the standard advice it to go even lower in carbs. I've even seen people give up eggs because there is a gram of carb in an egg. No - if you don't do well on LC, you probably need to try something else because you may not be suited to it. Personally, I feel much better eating higher protein, higher carb, lower fat.
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Old 02-16-2014, 07:40 AM   #23
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I agree that people need different ways/woe to lose weight effectively for *them*. I also adhered to the cultish LC way of thinking and tried to tell some people that it was *the* way to eat, no matter what they were doing or how successful. Luckily I haven't lost any friends over it (have I?). Even after stopping LC for months on JUDDD, I had a guilty complex about not doing it anymore. I now know that I don't feel as well mentally, nor do I enjoy the rigidness of that way of eating. I also don't think I have a carb addiction, although I convinced myself that I did. What I have is dieting fatigue and to overcome it, or to perhaps console myself on my non-dieting days, I reach for the yummiest sounding foods I can think of. When I wasn't dieting and overweight, I didn't pig out on junk food. I just overate and didn't monitor my calories, period...not sure where I'm going with this, but two weeks away from JUDDD has given me much to think about.
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Last edited by Librarygirl; 02-16-2014 at 07:43 AM..
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:26 AM   #24
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I'm rushing out to the gym so more from me later, but I do think that VLCarb caused my set point to be higher. Like I said I easily maintained 112 into my 30's, but eating no more than 20 net carbs. I also allowed myself to be convinced that I was a carb addict and for me that just isn't true. When I stopped VLCarb and introduced moderate carb I blew up way to fast for the actual calories being consumed so my body had to really adjust to eating them again. I realize now that my body has a harder time with fat. I just don't burn it as effectively as protein or carbs, but I can eat it. I can't load up on coconut oil, but I don't feel restricted by things like that.
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10.0 lbs lost on LC/low cal. (2/21/12-3/27/12)
65.8 lbs lost on JUDDD (3/28/12- 4/18/13)
75.8 lbs were evicted in less than 14 months!
Called goal on 2/5/13 at 126.8. I can wear size 4P!

See my before and after pictures
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/we...ore-after.html
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:51 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrostyBeav View Post
By the way, something else that led to my low carb apostasy is that I was active on a different low carb forum (Active Low Carber) for many years and rarely saw anyone get to goal doing the diet. There were people that had been there for years and years and were stuck 30 - 40 pounds over goal. They were constantly tweaking or starting new challenges. The few that got to goal rarely stayed there.

That's part of what attracted me to this forum. There are people here that did this diet to goal (or beyond) and are maintaining with this diet. That's powerful.
I just wanted to say THIS is certainly a big appeal. I saw JUDDD listed as the WOE on some profiles, and it's interesting that there are so many successful posters here that list JUDDD. I'm willing to give it a go if it helps alleviate some of the anxiety I experienced this past weekend with NK/ LCHF.
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Old 02-16-2014, 12:03 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwerp View Post
I just wanted to say THIS is certainly a big appeal. I saw JUDDD listed as the WOE on some profiles, and it's interesting that there are so many successful posters here that list JUDDD. I'm willing to give it a go if it helps alleviate some of the anxiety I experienced this past weekend with NK/ LCHF.
This interesting, and hopeful, part for me is that the successful ones aren't young, body-building males. A lot of them are older women, a demographic that typically has a very difficult time losing weight.
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Old 02-16-2014, 01:13 PM   #27
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Who are you calling "older?!"
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Old 02-16-2014, 02:09 PM   #28
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Who are you calling "older?!"
For reals!
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Old 02-16-2014, 02:29 PM   #29
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Start Date: 2/21/12- Low carb (199lbs) 3/28/12 JUDDD (189lbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwerp View Post
I just wanted to say THIS is certainly a big appeal. I saw JUDDD listed as the WOE on some profiles, and it's interesting that there are so many successful posters here that list JUDDD. I'm willing to give it a go if it helps alleviate some of the anxiety I experienced this past weekend with NK/ LCHF.
JUDDD has transformed my health, my wellbeing and my relationship with food. JUDDD is forgiving and pretty stress-free. I hope you will give it a try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeirasMom View Post
Who are you calling "older?!"


Frosty it's a good thing I adore you... older
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Old 02-16-2014, 02:30 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Who are you calling "older?!"
I knew I was going to get in trouble for that. The point stands, though, that it isn't primarily teenagers and 20-somethings that are having the success.
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