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Old 02-21-2014, 02:58 PM   #121
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I think yesterday kind of ended up being an UUAD day, calorie-wise.

In the morning, I was really wanting some nuts for some reason. Since I had forgotten to bring anything for lunch, I ran down to the store and bought a scoop of mixed nuts (no peanuts) from the bulk bin. Unfortunately, I should have weighed them because I ended up with 2/3 lbs.

When I got back to work, I was munching on them while working for a while. I ended up getting stuffed before I finished so brought some home. I just weighed them and I ended up eating 7.1 oz yesterday. Have you ever looked up how many calories are in 7.1 oz of mixed nuts? 1235!

I ended up having some yogurt and salad for lunch later on even though I was still not hungry from the nuts. Then for dinner, we had a "Crying Tiger" ribs and a sweet potato. The ribs were so good I ended up eating way more than I should. I also had a couple of drinks and may or may not have eaten the rest of the oatmeal scotchies and had a handful of mini Reeses. There were no witnesses to that last part, tho....

My weight after UD's has been kind of stagnant lately so I expected that after all that, it would be at the same or higher. Instead it was 2 lbs lower than two days ago (after the last UD). Maybe it will show up later but my stomach felt really flat this morning. It will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow after today's DD. The good thing is that I haven't been hungry at all today.
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:22 PM   #122
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Frosty, in your wanderings through the wonderland of LC/Thyroid, has anyone mentioned how many carbs the average human body seems to need?
Not really. The metabolism stuff seems to happen below 50g. The rest seems to be related to getting enough protein (though most Paleo and LC seem to really overestimate how much we need) and then it's based on calories.

From my reading, it seems like you either need to do lowish carb/higher fat or higher carb/lower fat. If you do lower carb, you should eat a little higher protein (carbs spare protein, so you don't need as much).

The combo of fat and carb seems to be a trigger to overeat for a lot of people.

The key seems to be to eat in a way that lets you become more insulin sensitive. They still don't know the mechanism of IR exactly but the latest and greatest studies seem to point to an excess of free fatty acids(FFA) in the bloodstream. Basically, the fat cells get to a point of fullness where they don't want to accept more FFAs as readily and the FFAs "back up" into the bloodstream and start getting stored into tissue that normally doesn't take them, including the liver. (Google "The megafat could be the healthiest" for a quickie primer on this or "Interplay between hormones, nutrients and adipose depots in the regulation of insulin sensitivity" for more depth).

Eating in a way that clears the "toxic soup" out of liver and other tissue as well as lose fat out of the fat cells can restore insulin sensitivity. Exercise helps too, though it isn't clear to me if it's because it helps somehow or just because it helps you lose weight.

There have been a couple of recent studies that cured diabetics by placing them on a 500 cal/day diet for 18 weeks (iirc). They were fully insulin sensitive after the treatment even if they went back to eating the way they were before (it's too soon to tell but I expect that once they regain the lost weight, they will become IR again).

Two other studies cured diabetics through a high carb/very low fat diet. These are intriguing because they weren't isocaloric and the subjects didn't lose a lot of weight but they still restored insulin sensitivity. I think it's possible that if you don't eat fat, your body may scavenge those misplaced FFAs. I actually played around with a similar diet and had my blood sugar come down a lot despite eating mostly starch.

So, the answer to how many carbs you need is - it depends. Helpful, huh?
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:18 PM   #123
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Thanks for a very intelligent and inclusive reply!

I am perfectly happy on LCHF. But, I know enough to know I have a lot to learn.

Oh, an some time ago I came to the same conclusion: Low carb/High Fat or Moderate/High Carb/Low Fat...never, ever low/low or high/high - it is highly unlikely the body will handle that for extended periods.

I have read some about Newcastle. The impression I get is ... well, almost they may be getting impressive results but they are shooting in the dark a lot (I could be wrong, may have read early studies).

I am getting the rotations going again, as I said on another thread, dang it I LIKE the DD/UD pattern. Sigh, I seem to be the only post-menopausal, moderate-to-low exercise female in the world whose body is still more than willing to drop weight. 850 calories DDs (1/2 of 'normal' maintenance calories per Dr J) and the scale keeps sneaking down.

Okay, I am off to look at those high carb/low fat approaches. Even if I don't decide to experiment, that sounds really interesting.

Thanks again!

Oh, and isn't it amazing how often a UUAD or having a short carb frenzy while eating LC can break a stall?
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:28 PM   #124
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Oh, and isn't it amazing how often a UUAD or having a short carb frenzy while eating LC can break a stall?
That is amazing! I've experienced that myself! I hope you don't get a bounce in a day or so, Frosty.
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:29 PM   #125
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I hope the stall is broken!

The ideas behind the studies I mentioned are what brought me to JUDDD. I am hoping that doing the full fast on DDs will help scavenge those FFAs while eating higher carb/ lower fat (definitely not low fat) on UDs will keep my metabolism humming along. I'm basically doing ZC/refeed rotations.

So far, no real magic. However, there have been some breaks which might be throwing things off. It also may take awhile. Most of the intervention studies have lasted over four months.
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:32 PM   #126
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I hope you don't get a bounce in a day or so, Frosty.
Thanks. I hope so too. Since I switched to a 4:3 with the idea I may not be eating enough, having back to back UDs this weekend may throw things off. I'm hoping that's not the case. I'm also going to try to make sure they aren't UUADs.
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Old 02-21-2014, 05:57 PM   #127
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Oh, I remember that was the idea behind the Potato Hack. I could not do that one. Got scared of what my BG was doing and felt really sick. But, the theory is, had I kept going with things would have changed. Interesting. More research.....FFAs......

So the ZC/refeed rotations concept makes a lot of sense. Lookin' forward to seeing how this works for you.
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:00 PM   #128
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Spurred by this this thread, I just tried on the next pair of jeans in "pile". These were the jeans I wore a couple of years ago when I was still in the low to mid-190's. They actually buttoned! They are still a bit snug but I should be able to wear them in a pound or two.

My current jeans are a pair of 34x32 Old Navy (mom) jeans. I was wearing them last summer and when I wore my barefoot shoes, the jeans were long enough that the back of the leg would catch under the shoes, since they didn't have any heel. At the time, Old Navy was having an online sale so I bought the same jeans in a 34/30 cheap.

When I got them, though, I couldn't button them. I mean I was a good inch from being able to button them. Anyway, I just tried them on too, and they buttoned! They are still too snug to wear comfortably but at least I could button them. Unfortunately, I think they are going to to be too short but still... they buttoned!
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Pictures?

Ok. Since Dawn asked for it, I tried on the 34/30 ON jeans again with a Medium shirt I used to wear. My goal now is to not look like an overstuffed sausage in these clothes, preferably by this summer.

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Old 02-21-2014, 10:39 PM   #129
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Good going, Frosty! Before you know it, you'll be wearing those and they'll even feel a little loose!
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Old 02-22-2014, 03:03 AM   #130
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So close!

You remind me of some lovely 'just a wee bit too small' clothing I had - all ready to move into it in a few pounds. Well, a few pounds later, the clothes went from almost-there to too big. I never got to wear them .
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Old 02-22-2014, 06:18 AM   #131
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Yup, almost there!! Actually, they'd look fine with an untucked shirt, but I'm partial to untucked shirts anyway.
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Old 02-22-2014, 07:08 AM   #132
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Okay. Still have a lot of reading to do. But Newcastle is beginning to make sense.

Very thought provoking.

In fact, I am getting glimmers of why I still find weight-loss involuntary....VERY thought-provoking!

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Old 02-22-2014, 08:43 AM   #133
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Yup, almost there!! Actually, they'd look fine with an untucked shirt, but I'm partial to untucked shirts anyway.
I usually don't wear them tucked in. In this case, I only did because I thought it would better show how the jeans fit.
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:54 AM   #134
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I wear my clothes that are a little too small. I bought the blouse I'm wearing in my picture (chat thread) in the juniors dept, and it's a L. I needed an XL, but they didn't have any, so I figured it would fit perfect before long. It was skin tight, but I still wore it to my dinner. I can wear some M's in Ladies, but junior's are a lot smaller...I also like the fit of junior clothing better.

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Old 02-23-2014, 07:43 AM   #135
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Okay, I did a lot of reading and thinking yesterday and this morning. And, Frost ol' BUDDD, I believe you are chasing a very valid rabbit. FFAs are, like so many other things, critically important to have and critically important to not have too much of.

I particularly like the study that asked "what would have happened if Minkowski had lacked a sense of taste but had a good nose"?

I think I get it and I think it is consistent with what I saw for myself and heard reported by numerous BUDDDs:
pre-JUDDD - symptoms of pancreatic malfunction, glucose intolerance, and metabolic syndrome;
JUDDD/ADF (for me, with intermittent very low fat days) - normal BG, successful weight loss;
maintenance - higher fat, fewer DDs - prediabetes. (Carly, keep having weekly low cal DDs - they are cleaning up your FFAs!)

I think your ADF/ZC plan is the cat's pajamas and, after a cleaning-up period, may have amazing results. Now, to figure out how to make the conversion myself without losing too much more weight.

PS for BUDDDs who are wondering. SIRT1 is still doing it's thing, the discussion here does not, I think, involve sirtuin enzymes. JUDDD Magic is still magic.....in fact, I think it is even more magical than I realized.

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Old 02-23-2014, 09:42 AM   #136
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Okay, I did a lot of reading and thinking yesterday and this morning. And, Frost ol' BUDDD, I believe you are chasing a very valid rabbit. FFAs are, like so many other things, critically important to have and critically important to not have too much of.

I particularly like the study that asked "what would have happened if Minkowski had lacked a sense of taste but had a good nose"?

I think I get it and I think it is consistent with what I saw for myself and heard reported by numerous BUDDDs:
pre-JUDDD - symptoms of pancreatic malfunction, glucose intolerance, and metabolic syndrome;
JUDDD/ADF (for me, with intermittent very low fat days) - normal BG, successful weight loss;
maintenance - higher fat, fewer DDs - prediabetes. (Carly, keep having weekly low cal DDs - they are cleaning up your FFAs!)

I think your ADF/ZC plan is the cat's pajamas and, after a cleaning-up period, may have amazing results. Now, to figure out how to make the conversion myself without losing too much more weight.

PS for BUDDDs who are wondering. SIRT1 is still doing it's thing, the discussion here does not, I think, involve sirtuin enzymes. JUDDD Magic is still magic.....in fact, I think it is even more magical than I realized.
Thanks for the update. It sounds like your research has blown by mine.

Throw any cool studies you come across my way, please.
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Old 02-23-2014, 10:01 AM   #137
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Okay, I did a lot of reading and thinking yesterday and this morning. And, Frost ol' BUDDD, I believe you are chasing a very valid rabbit. FFAs are, like so many other things, critically important to have and critically important to not have too much of.

I particularly like the study that asked "what would have happened if Minkowski had lacked a sense of taste but had a good nose"?

I think I get it and I think it is consistent with what I saw for myself and heard reported by numerous BUDDDs:
pre-JUDDD - symptoms of pancreatic malfunction, glucose intolerance, and metabolic syndrome;
JUDDD/ADF (for me, with intermittent very low fat days) - normal BG, successful weight loss;
maintenance - higher fat, fewer DDs - prediabetes. (Carly, keep having weekly low cal DDs - they are cleaning up your FFAs!)
I think your ADF/ZC plan is the cat's pajamas and, after a cleaning-up period, may have amazing results. Now, to figure out how to make the conversion myself without losing too much more weight.

PS for BUDDDs who are wondering. SIRT1 is still doing it's thing, the discussion here does not, I think, involve sirtuin enzymes. JUDDD Magic is still magic.....in fact, I think it is even more magical than I realized.
I really believe that my 2 DDs under 250 kcal do something magical. Can't say what it is scientifically, but it's all good!
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Old 02-23-2014, 10:05 AM   #138
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Now, to figure out how to make the conversion myself without losing too much more weight.
I’d be really interested in where you get with this (maybe in another thread to avoid hijacking this one).
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Old 02-23-2014, 04:35 PM   #139
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I see the term " Newcastle " but it must be different then what i was thinking!


BEER!
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Old 02-23-2014, 10:37 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by gotsomeold View Post
pre-JUDDD - symptoms of pancreatic malfunction, glucose intolerance, and metabolic syndrome;
JUDDD/ADF (for me, with intermittent very low fat days) - normal BG, successful weight loss;
maintenance - higher fat, fewer DDs - prediabetes. (Carly, keep having weekly low cal DDs - they are cleaning up your FFAs!)

I think your ADF/ZC plan is the cat's pajamas
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I really believe that my 2 DDs under 250 kcal do something magical. Can't say what it is scientifically, but it's all good!
Just to add low fasting insulin levels into the mix, Carly not only has low cal DDs, she also seems to have a small eating window on her UDs. She has minimal insulin release because she eats so few times and doesn't eat high volume meals nor calorically-dense foods.

I'd say this is a strategy that works spectacularly well for Carly - especially in the context of her former diabetes/insulin resistance. The weight loss, plus this timing strategy, may well have done a lot to restore a goodly amount of insulin sensitivity against this background of substantially lower fasting insulin levels.

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Exercise helps too, though it isn't clear to me if it's because it helps somehow or just because it helps you lose weight....
So, the answer to how many carbs you need is - it depends. Helpful, huh?
Much depends on the type of exercise (aerobic v resistance), the person who is doing it, the weight loss and metabolic history of that person (is it lowering insulin levels, increasing physiological v. pathological insulin resistance), age, gender etc.

So, the answer to why exercise helps and which type you might need - it depends. This does, however, seem to be an area where there are significant gender/age variables.
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:31 AM   #141
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Just to add low fasting insulin levels into the mix, Carly not only has low cal DDs, she also seems to have a small eating window on her UDs. She has minimal insulin release because she eats so few times and doesn't eat high volume meals nor calorically-dense foods.

I'd say this is a strategy that works spectacularly well for Carly - especially in the context of her former diabetes/insulin resistance. The weight loss, plus this timing strategy, may well have done a lot to restore a goodly amount of insulin sensitivity against this background of substantially lower fasting insulin levels.
This is true and I feel so much better for it. On Friday I ate breakfast and lunch and felt like S*** warmed over all day. Not only is it unusual for me to eat breakfast AND lunch, but breakfast was a donut and lunch was a Mexican meal shared with a co-worker. 2 things I normally don't eat in a month's time frame was eaten within 6 hours of each other much earlier in the day than I usually eat. I just wanted to go home and go to bed!!!!!

Lessoned learned!
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:05 AM   #142
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Frosty, the study that gave me my ah-ha moment is at "http:// care.diabetesjournals.org/content/27/9/2253 dot full". I threw in a few spaces to try to prevent the link from activating.

I will let you enjoy the punch line.

SlowSure, I think those are critical points. The further we slide down the road to insulin resistance, unstable BG, and unstable insulin release...the more fasting days help set things right. Carly, I am at the idea of a sweet breakfast and a Mexican lunch. Ah well, the rotations let us live and learn.

Ailuros is absolutely right. I will move my part of this discussion over to my Well....Dang! thread.

Frosty, you are keeping us on pins and needles. The character development was superb, the twist and turns of the plot were gripping.....WHAT HAPPENED NEXT??

(Actually, I do understand you needing to take some time to think this through...or have a life.)

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Old 02-24-2014, 06:00 AM   #143
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Frosty, the study that gave me my ah-ha moment is at "http:// care.diabetesjournals.org/content/27/9/2253 dot full". I threw in a few spaces to try to prevent the link from activating.

I will let you enjoy the punch line.

SlowSure, I think those are critical points. The further we slide down the road to insulin resistance, unstable BG, and unstable insulin release...the more fasting days help set things right. Carly, I am at the idea of a sweet breakfast and a Mexican lunch. Ah well, the rotations let us live and learn.

Ailuros is absolutely right. I will move my part of this discussion over to my Well....Dang! thread.

Frosty, you are keeping us on pins and needles. The character development was superb, the twist and turns of the plot were gripping.....WHAT HAPPENED NEXT??

(Actually, I do understand you needing to take some time to think this through...or have a life.)
It will be long time before that happens again, but that's how we (I) learn.
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:17 AM   #144
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Since I started JUDDD, if someone even suggests a sweet breakfast, my entire body cringes and whispers, please - no.
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Old 02-26-2014, 05:17 PM   #145
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I think the negative self image when I was a kid came from my dad. He fought his weight his whole adult life and was constantly on a diet of some sort or another (my mom is naturally thin and has never had a weight problem or food issues of any kind other than gluten issues). He would constantly poke me in the stomach and say "What is this? Are you getting fat too?"

Now, after having a couple of kids, I know it's natural for them to chub up and then have a growth spurt so it's not a big deal. He tried the same **** with my oldest son and I shut that down in a hurry. Both of my boys are healthy weights and have a healthy relationship with food.
Bingo!!! You hit the nail on the head! This is an older post but it really hit home so I had to put my 2cents in.

As I get older and wiser I realize my mother's attitude toward her body had a huge impact on my own body image as a child. She never said anything negative to me but she sure made it clear that having a "nice figure" (which is what called way back when) was very important. My parents each had lots of brothers and sisters, so I had a lot of cousins around growing up. At family get togethers the men would talk about cars or fishing and the women talked about their latest diet and what size they wore. By the time I was a teenager I was never happy with the way I looked. By the time I was 16 I was sure I was fat. And like so many of us, I look at those pictures now and could cry. I was darn cute! And I sure as hell was not fat.

I was always careful not to criticize myself or my kids when they were younger. I am sure my mom never meant to instill any kind of insecurity in me, she is a wonderful mother. But just her attitude toward her own body (she was never more than 20 lbs overweight) gave me a distorted lifelong message of women and how they are supposed to look.
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:00 AM   #146
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Frosty: I finally had time to start reading this thread last night, but I'm only to page 4.

Very enlightening and I, like others, related to lots of things you were saying as you started telling us your story.

I don't think doing VLC (um NO carbs really) and LF messed me up as I went back to it often. It helped me to stay thin and combat the symptoms of PCOS for many, many years.

I blame a severe back injury when I turned 50 along with the simultaneous on set of menopause (sorry to throw in female problems but there they are) to my weight gain after staying slim all my adult life (since I was 15 years old!)

LC always, always worked for me when I was younger. Then, boom! nothing worked. Not LC, not weight watchers, not nutrisystem, not anything. Not working out like a maniac. Not starving. Not the cabbage soup diet. Nothing. You get the picture.

At this point in my life, I don't want to suffer. There are many unwelcomed events and tragedies that cause enough torment in life.

No carb or Low carb to me right now is torture.

Recently when I read Varady's book and Johnson's revised book and about 5 other's including Mosley's, I relaxed and welcomed ADF in all it's simplicity.

I'm not over thinking it. I refuse to over think it or make it complicated.

I want to enjoy the many health benefits of calorie restriction, not just weight loss. But, of course, I want weight loss!

But more than weight loss I want simplicity, a way of life and to maintain my health so I can enjoy traveling with DH and running around with my grand kids and other family members.

OK, just wanted to pipe up and pipe in. Now back to reading.....

BTW: Cute, cute Mrs. Frosty!
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:03 AM   #147
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Simplicity is what I want, too, Yams. No more counting; I don't have the patience for it.
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Old 02-27-2014, 01:01 PM   #148
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Ironically, it's the simplicity of a 4:3 WOE that appeals to me and certainly makes it easier to manage my DH's weight/body fat.

I do count - but that's because of the dietary control of migraine rather than for any other reasons. The modified ketogenic diet protocol that I follow is moderate protein and (relatively) low carb: there are absolute numbers of grammes that I do my best not to exceed because it might result in a migraine. I've had my first migraine in months this week but I think it's because I need to tweak my diet and increase my ketone level to deal with triggers such as higher sun elevation, more light and a greater tendency to dehydrate during workouts/high intensity activity.
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Old 03-03-2014, 10:54 AM   #149
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I'm taking a break from JUDDD until at least March 12th (and maybe the 13th, since I have an appointment with my doctor that morning). The blood bank is in town on the 11th and I would like to be able to donate this time. I have only been able to donate once over the last 6 times (they come approx. every 10 weeks). I donate primarily to keep my iron stores in check and it's starting to freak me out that I'm so far behind. Heart disease runs very strongly in my family and high iron dramatically raises the risk.

As I've mentioned plenty of times, the one time I was able to donate last summer was when I was playing with a very low fat diet, so that's what I'm doing starting today. My blood pressure has come down some while doing ADF (140/97 on the machine a week ago) but I need more of a margin. I'm hoping I respond like I did last time and will be able to donate.

The basic idea to eat freely of foods that are 800 calories/pound or less and less than 20% calories from fat, with an emphasis on starch.

When this is over, I'm not sure what to do. The 4:3 rotations were an abject failure, with my average weight raising to the highest level since right after New Years. This basically means the last two months were for nothing.

I like the idea of ADF but the reality hasn't been what I was hoping for so far.
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Old 03-03-2014, 11:04 AM   #150
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Good luck on this strategy, Frosty. I'm sorry ADF hasn't been what you hoped for. I'm taking a JUDDD break too, but for different reasons (massive diet and DD fatigue) and with a different strategy (VLC/HF). I'll still be hanging around here though, and hope you will be too!
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